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BS: Mudcatters supporting murder

Once Famous 23 Mar 05 - 08:37 PM
Little Hawk 23 Mar 05 - 08:39 PM
Liz the Squeak 23 Mar 05 - 08:47 PM
cool hand Tom 23 Mar 05 - 08:48 PM
Scoville 23 Mar 05 - 08:51 PM
Once Famous 23 Mar 05 - 08:54 PM
dick greenhaus 23 Mar 05 - 08:59 PM
Bunnahabhain 23 Mar 05 - 09:06 PM
Bobert 23 Mar 05 - 09:16 PM
jaze 23 Mar 05 - 09:32 PM
harpgirl 23 Mar 05 - 09:49 PM
open mike 23 Mar 05 - 09:53 PM
Greg F. 23 Mar 05 - 09:59 PM
jaze 23 Mar 05 - 10:04 PM
Greg F. 23 Mar 05 - 10:11 PM
Bill D 23 Mar 05 - 10:15 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 23 Mar 05 - 10:39 PM
Lonesome EJ 23 Mar 05 - 10:51 PM
Clinton Hammond 23 Mar 05 - 11:03 PM
Once Famous 23 Mar 05 - 11:05 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 23 Mar 05 - 11:11 PM
Once Famous 23 Mar 05 - 11:14 PM
Amos 23 Mar 05 - 11:17 PM
Once Famous 23 Mar 05 - 11:19 PM
Lonesome EJ 23 Mar 05 - 11:30 PM
CarolC 24 Mar 05 - 12:00 AM
Dead Horse 24 Mar 05 - 04:02 AM
Pied Piper 24 Mar 05 - 05:19 AM
GUEST 24 Mar 05 - 06:14 AM
42 24 Mar 05 - 07:02 AM
robomatic 24 Mar 05 - 07:38 AM
GUEST 24 Mar 05 - 09:01 AM
Wolfgang 24 Mar 05 - 09:14 AM
Wesley S 24 Mar 05 - 09:40 AM
heric 24 Mar 05 - 10:00 AM
heric 24 Mar 05 - 10:13 AM
CarolC 24 Mar 05 - 11:11 AM
Wolfgang 24 Mar 05 - 11:17 AM
Raptor 24 Mar 05 - 11:48 AM
DougR 24 Mar 05 - 12:02 PM
heric 24 Mar 05 - 12:05 PM
GUEST,CarolC 24 Mar 05 - 12:28 PM
Peace 24 Mar 05 - 12:33 PM
GUEST,Diogenes 24 Mar 05 - 12:47 PM
EagleWing 24 Mar 05 - 12:54 PM
Bunnahabhain 24 Mar 05 - 12:54 PM
GUEST,PoppaGator 24 Mar 05 - 01:06 PM
Joe Offer 24 Mar 05 - 01:08 PM
Kim C 24 Mar 05 - 01:11 PM
CarolC 24 Mar 05 - 01:26 PM

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Subject: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 08:37 PM

Interesting how the so called liberal baby killers here also support the killing of an innocent woman who they will support starving to death, yet cry and whine about capitol punishment for known and convicted murderers as being inhumane.

I am not a fundamentalist Christian and could give a rat's ass about what would Jesus do.

I am a person who has left the liberal world of thought behind because of much disillusionment with it's twisted train of thought, political correctness, pseudo-intellectualism, and drug influenced logic.

I will say it and I have the support of others through dozens of PMs that support me, the far-left radical extreme on Mudcat are by far the low-lifes of this otherwise forum of rationale thinking people.

I am sick of their anger at everything, and I am giving you my committment, time permitting, to let you know that I will without wasting my time in any debates, tell you that I think you are full of crap.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 08:39 PM

Hmmm.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 08:47 PM

Don't beat about the bush or dither about, tell us what you really feel!

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: cool hand Tom
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 08:48 PM

HMMMMMMMM im a communist and rational.I also dont moan much,so see the light and read Engels lol,it will calm you down.

   Power to the workers Tom


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: Scoville
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 08:51 PM

If you don't like the company, go find another chat. Nobody's forcing you to read the threads around here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 08:54 PM

May you be the first Scoville to be told to get fucked on this thread. You go find another place if you can't deal with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 08:59 PM

Martin-
Is it possible that Mudcatters, like the state and federal courts, are supporting the Constitutional separataion of power between the executive, legislative and judicial branches of the government?

I know that I am.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 09:06 PM

Come on Martin, If you want to start a sensible debate about a pecervied previlent view here, then use a less emotive title. If you want to kick up a shitstorm, then aren't there enough with your'e name on already?

I view neither abortion, nor exectution of criminals convicted of the most serious offenses as murder, but will not support you unless you come down to at least geosynchronos orbit. Down to earth is too much to expect.

Bunnahabhain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 09:16 PM

Like I said on another thread, Martin, you have so "marginalized" your own self that, hey, no matter what your opinions are about anything in BS-burg, no one really cares...

Sorry, but you have done it to yourself and even now you state that you just want to say what ever you want to say but don't want to go to the trouble of backing it up by debating???

Like, who cares? Or like you would say, "Who gives a rat's ass?" Hey, ahhhhh, hate to break it to ya, pal, but, ahhhh, no one....

Sorry... I really am...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: jaze
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 09:32 PM

And your're the high-life? Look in the mirror,man, all you do is spew anger. This is a sad, tragic and emotional issue. Everyone has their feelings and thoughts and their rignt to express them without the vitriol you spew at them. Even you. But I'm amazed that someone so conservative isn't alarmed at the absurdity of government intrusion into the private affair of one family. This happens every single day. People are removed from life support every day in this country. So is this what our gov't and congress are going to concern themselves with? Daily? God help us. If this woman expressed her wishes to her husband, her family should respect his decision. I can understand their grief at losing their child. And my heart goes out to all of them. But ultimately, I think her wishes as expressed to her husband should be respected. I would want that, and I expect if you were truly honest with yourself, you would want you're wishes carried out, too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: harpgirl
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 09:49 PM

Hey cloneheads!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: open mike
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 09:53 PM

according to figures i have seen, there are currently between 20,000 and 30,000 people (victims? patients) in a Persistant Vegetative State or Coma whose corpses are being maintained at the cost of millions of dollars annually. For these there is very little hope of a future life. yet assistance is being withdrawn from those who do have hope of life in the future and who can become useful citizens. Where is the fairness in that? When yo udo CPR there is a 1 in 10 chance the patient will come to and survive. Much, much less for comatose.
quote from a PVS web site..
" Many find it agonizing to watch anyone, particularly a loved one, languish in this condition with little hope for recovery. For this reason, allowing PVS patients to die can seem very merciful. So, the ethical question arises: should we withdraw artificially administered food and fluids from these patients and allow them die?" Terry has been in this condition sicne 1990. Her Brain is already "dead"
"it is generally agreed that if a patient doesn't become responsive before six months, his or her prognosis is extremely poor"
I have not heard why or how she became this way...
"Individuals recovering from coma require close medical supervision. A coma rarely lasts more than 2 to 4 weeks. Some patients may regain a degree of awareness after persistent vegetative state. Others may remain in that state for years or even decades. The most common cause of death for someone in a persistent vegetative state is infection, such as pneumonia."
The right to die with dignity is not the same as murder or capital punishment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 09:59 PM

Its not just the storm that's shit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: jaze
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 10:04 PM

Sadly, Open Mike, her condition is the result of a heart attack as a result of an eating disorder. How ironic is that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 10:11 PM

OK, then. To Reprise the closed thread:


Why the fu$k do people persist in RESPONDING to this Martin turd?

The Marty the Mensch doll is not amusing, not entertaining, he's not enlightening. He's not even a whooopee cushion, Bobert - more like a guy exposing himself to school girls to get a reaction. Pathetic.

Way past time to issue a DNR order on him- Do Not Respond.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 10:15 PM

they DO call Chicago "The Windy City"...I'm beginning to see why.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 10:39 PM

Martin - your diatribe - is like the Delphi Oracle - it goes BOTH ways.



What precicsly, is you point?



List examples, cite sources, be specific and provide links to previous postings.

Sincerely,

Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 10:51 PM

Have you seen the MRI of her brain, Martin? Nearly all of the cerebellum has shrunken away. Not that scientific fact sould have any bearing on your opinion, but frankly, there has been no brain activity for a very long time, and the MRI shows there is no material left to generate any. A significant portion of the populace and some notable political figures who know better, have chosen to prolong this woman's existence to score points in some sort of right-to-life argument. Sorry, but I don't buy it. And calling it murder doesn't carry any water with me, nor with most people who will read your post. I'd also be curious to see if you are capable of mustering a reasonable response to this (should you choose to do so) outside of the standard string of obscenities you're in the habit of substituting for a strong position.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 11:03 PM

I'm pro-choice...

I'm pro Pull-The-Plug...

I'm pro capitol punishment...

I'm also pro pot!

Why don't you calm down, MG... have some dip... cause yer just making yourself look band and worse...


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 11:05 PM

Greg F. is a complete motherfucker. One of Mudcat's most complete morons. A total ignoramous who is so anti-establishment everything he will eat his own turds because they are more organic than what can be bought at a supermarket.

He responds to me everytime! consider your chain yanked as usual, you dispicable turd with earflaps.

Gee,Lonesome EJ, I didn't know you were one of her attending physicians. Maybe if you are a parent you might watch one of your own kids die who was living with a beating heart and pulling air into their lungs.

Gargoyle, you don't get it. I find debating pseudo-intellectuals a waste of time here. All they do is howl when challanged. At least, I have the balls to call one a shithead.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 11:11 PM

Dearest Lonesome -



I have always acknowledged you to be an IDJET



However, I am totaly lost within your responce.



Who/What is:her brain


Who/What is: this woman's



HE-SHE-ITS tend to stink!!!!



Sincerely,

Gargoyle



Make your point without he stench of he-she-its.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 11:14 PM

Clinton

I don't care.

So what?

I think you are pro-phylactic.   Used.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: Amos
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 11:17 PM

Geeze Gargs, fix your meds, or swap with MG's -- you both need a change. What isher brain? I am sure the usual definitions will serve. What kinda crowd are you running with over there?

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 11:19 PM

Probably Hollywodd liberal types who we are still waiting to leave the country after the election.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 11:30 PM

Nicely put, garg. I'll see if I can find someone else with the appropriate bizarre pathology who can translate your comments for me.

Martin, thanks for a reasonable response. No, I'm not an attending physician, but I believe the resolution to this should lie in scientific evidence and not unsupportable hopes. I have seen no evidence that supports the idea that Terri Schaivo is in anything but a vegetative state, and certainly none to support the idea of any recovery. I do have a child, and I think I understand how her parents must feel. Tragically, there are thousands of others who are enduring the same sort of pain, without the complication of lawsuits, media coverage, and those seeking to advance a political agenda. The MRIs are available for viewing. I would be interested in your opinion on them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 12:00 AM

Yer man Bush supports murder too then, Martin. After all, he signed the legislations that allows hospitals in Texas to commit what you are describing as "murder" (removing life support from people like Terri Schiavo) against the wishes of their families.

Looks like you'd better get started writing letters to Mr. Bush so you can let him know what a murderer he is.

Oops! You support murder too! You voted for him!


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: Dead Horse
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 04:02 AM

I am all in favour of murder in one or two particular cases. It's only the legal retribution that is bound to follow that stops me from actually committing the crime. Crime? Not in my mind, more like justifiable homicide.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: Pied Piper
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 05:19 AM

Yet another thought provoking and cogent analysis of a current moral dilemma from Martin.
Were would we be without his insightful and intelligent observations. The flashlight of his mind illuminates for us, all those things that our limited perspective is unable to discern.

Martin Martin Ubermensch
Speaks both Latin, Greek and French
What a pity that your view
Only ever, relates to you


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 06:14 AM

Martin, you support a lot of things, including pack rape. Lucky we have Joe to clean up some of your nastier comments.

Glad you're beginning to discover the value of human life... conservative, American human life.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: 42
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 07:02 AM

My mother left a living will and everyone should do the same. It did not make her dying less sudden or horrific, but she made the choice.

The creation of such a document would make the hatred and rancour evidenced in this thread moot and ensure that those who wish their lives to be prolonged, regardless of what we may perceive the 'quality' of that life to be, may do so; while those who want to exist independent of artifical devices also have the choice.

It's a disgrace the media decided to give this story such a high profile when what it comes down to in the end is the intimate, raw emotions of a family in distress. With thousand of children around the world dying each day of starvation, it seems so ironic.
jen


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 07:38 AM

The God Racket


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 09:01 AM

That's a great article.

It is also quite enlightening to read the Miami Herald, for information about this case. You have to register, but it's well worth it, as they seem to be the only national paper really examining who these hucksters are.

Here are some very interesting excerpts from one of their stories in today's paper:

Posted on Thu, Mar. 24, 2005

FAMILY HISTORY

Husband, in-laws once were united in caring for Terri

Before the fighting, Michael Schiavo and his in-laws cared for Terri Schiavo together. The Schindlers urged him to date, and later agreed on the extent of her damage.

PINELLAS PARK - For years, even after suspicion drove them apart and pitted them in a fierce legal fight, Michael Schiavo and his in-laws seemed to agree on one thing: that Terri, his wife and their daughter, was in a persistent vegetative state.

During a January 2000 court battle in which Bob and Mary Schindler sought to wrest Terri's guardianship from Michael Schiavo, the Schindlers repeatedly conceded that their daughter's brain damage was extreme.

''We do not doubt that she's in a persistent vegetative state,'' Pam Campbell, then the Schindlers' lawyer, told the court. Later, Michael Schiavo's lawyer, George Felos, asked Mary Schindler, ''Is Terri in a vegetative condition now?'' to which she replied, ``Yes. That is what they call it.''

Many of the Schindlers' supporters insist Terri is very much alert. Michael Schiavo has also been cast by detractors as an adulterous, heartless husband who wanted to remove Terri's feeding tube in order to access her trust fund.

But testimony from court files documenting the 12-year struggle over Terri Schiavo's fate tells a far more complex story.

Beyond accepting that their daughter was in a vegetative state, the Schindlers had, years earlier, encouraged Michael to date. When the Schindlers later accused Michael of greed, he offered to donate Terri's entire trust fund to charity.

Up until a bitter falling out in 1993, Michael Schiavo and the Schindlers were united in efforts to rehabilitate Terri.

They moved in together after Terri's collapse in February 1990, and Michael called the Schindlers ''Mom and Dad.'' A year later, the Schindlers encouraged their son-in-law to get on with his life and date. They even met some of the women he saw.

''I looked at that as maybe he was starting to take a step in the right direction and get his life back together,'' Bob Schindler said in a 1993 deposition. ``He's still a young man. He still has a life ahead of him.''

WORKED TOGETHER

The Schindlers later said that they urged Michael to see other women because they ultimately hoped to gain guardianship of their daughter. But they still worked feverishly with Michael to ensure Terri had the best possible care.

To raise funds for medical costs, they sold hot dogs and pretzels on the beach, threw a Valentine's Day dance and made appeals on local news stations. In 1991, the city of St. Petersburg Beach declared Feb. 17 ``Terri Schiavo Day.''

Terri was frequently moved between hospitals, hospices and nursing homes. Each rehabilitation facility treated her with aggressive physical, recreational, speech and language therapy, moving her arms and legs, trying to rouse her with scents.

But according to court filings, Terri was not responsive to neurological or swallowing tests. Mary Schindler testified that a neurologist told her, ``This might be where she's going to be for the rest of her life.''

Michael Schiavo and the Schindlers brought Terri home briefly in the fall of 1990, but were overwhelmed. Then they sent her to California to have experimental platinum electrodes implanted to stimulate her brain. Michael slept by her bedside for five weeks. Terri sat up and her eyes burned brightly when the implants were turned up high, Michael testified, but the doctor told him the reactions were mere motor responses.

Meanwhile, Michael filed a malpractice suit against two of Terri's doctors, unwittingly setting into motion events that tore him and the Schindlers apart.

Michael initially expected a multimillion-dollar award, and the Schindlers said he promised them a share, which would enable them to care for Terri at home.

By then, the Schindlers were almost broke. After selling his share of a successful industrial equipment company, Bob Schindler lost his savings in a Florida business venture that went sour. The couple declared bankruptcy in 1989, Bob Schindler testified. He told a court that Michael Schiavo promised to help.

But Michael said he never committed to sharing any award money with the Schindlers, especially when the award ended up being far smaller than hoped. Roughly $700,000 was earmarked for a trust fund for Terri, and $300,000 for Michael.

The Schindlers still expected part of Michael's share to help care for Terri. On Valentine's Day 1993, they confronted Michael in Terri's hospital room. The discussion quickly turned ugly. Michael said the Schindlers demanded the money, so he lied and said he did not have it. Disgusted, the Schindlers left, their trust in Michael irrevocably breached.

''The fact that he was going back on his word upset me,'' Bob Schindler testified in 1993. ``I was devastated.''

Michael soon began believing doctors who told him that Terri had effectively died in 1990. In a 1993 deposition, he testified that Terri had said she would never want to live by artificial means. He imposed a ''do not resuscitate'' order. Hospice staff challenged the order's legality, so he reversed it.

Horrified, the Schindlers launched the first of many exhaustive battles to become Terri's legal guardians. They accused Schiavo of being abusive, citing his admitted belligerence to hospice staff. They also said he wanted to kill Terri for her money.

But in 1998, when one of Terri's court-appointed guardians noted this conflict of interest, Michael offered to donate Terri's estate to charity, as long as the Schindlers stopped fighting his decision to remove Terri's feeding tube. The Schindlers rejected this proposal. All but $50,000 of the award has since gone to Terri's care and court costs.

NUMEROUS PROBLEMS

By the mid-1990s, Terri's physical therapy had been stopped, enraging her parents.

Court guardians concluded that Terri was cared for extremely well, but her condition still led to numerous complications and hospitalizations. She suffered from bile stones and kidney stones, according to court papers, and had to have her gallbladder removed. She has ''drop foot,'' where her foot twists downward, and the ensuing pressure resulted in the amputation of her left little toe. She frequently developed urinary tract infections, diarrhea and vaginitis. Several cysts were removed from her neck. Several times, her feeding tube got infected.

In 2000, despite conceding their daughter's persistent vegetative state, the Schindlers said they still believed she knew when they were there. When Felos, Michael Schiavo's lawyer, asked Bob Schindler if he thought Terri would be tormented by her current state, he replied ''Yes,'' but added, ``she's not that cognizant to be aware of it.''

Several years ago, a few doctors said Terri was, in fact, responsive, evidently causing her parents to believe that the Terri they knew could at least partially be brought back. But judges repeatedly sided with the medical opinion that their daughter's chances for improvement were nil.

The Schindlers never stopped believing. Mary decorated Terri's room during holidays and saw light in Terri's eyes when she softly sang, ``Terri, it's Mommy.''

''I think she understands. I think she knows I'm there,'' Mary Schindler told the court in 2000. ``She just . . . I just want her to live.''


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 09:14 AM

S. Blumenthal's opinion from the Guardian

For the first time public policy in the US is being made on the basis of pitting invisible signs versus science.

As in tribal cultures, a confederacy of shamans - Bush, Frist and DeLay - have appeared to conduct rites of necrophiliac spiritualism

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: Wesley S
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 09:40 AM

Carol C - You don't have all the facts on the Texas law as I understand them. The law here provides for the plug to be pulled against the familys wishes - WHEN THEY RUN OUT OF MONEY. If you got the cash you can keep them alive as long as you can find a facility that will take them.

It's all about the money.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: heric
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 10:00 AM

My first question about the Texas law would be: How does it differ from the laws of other states. My second question would be: What have bioethicists written in critique.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: heric
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 10:13 AM

Because I doubt that it can be inconsistent with the federal Medicaid (or Medicare) regulations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 11:11 AM

Do you know what the federal Medicaid (or Medicare) regulations on this subject are, heric?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 11:17 AM

Mudcatters supporting murder.
And the Supreme Court too.

Wolfgang (glad about that decision)


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: Raptor
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 11:48 AM

Lets pull the plug on Martin Gibson.

It's quite apparent that he has been BRAIN-DEAD for quite some time now!


Raptor


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: DougR
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 12:02 PM

I believe the one weak link in the chain touted by folks who favor allowing Terry to die, is there is nothing in writing to support her husband's claim that she would want to die. Because of the actions of the courts, I assume that from now on, anyone without a written Living Will that states how one wishes to be treated if he/she has a similar condition to Terry's, is at the mercy of their spouse or whoever to inform the authorities what they BELIEVE to be their wishes. Her husband has nothing in writing so the courts are taking him at his word.

I do not see any harm in allowing the parents to care for Terry for the rest of her natural life if they want to. There would be ample time later to kill her if the parents can no longer take care of her.

And I do see Martin's point when he criticizes those who profess to value life so much, they oppose the death penalty for murderers on death row. Seems a bit hypocritical to me.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: heric
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 12:05 PM

No, and the regs are a lot larger than the IRS regs. Pauline L. would probably know. The answer can be had at Thomas.loc.gov, but googling .edu sites with keywords would probably be a lot faster.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: GUEST,CarolC
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 12:28 PM

So DougR, what do you think about that Texas legislation that Bush signed into law. It calls for the same thing to be done to those whose loved ones cant afford to keep them on life support (to be "killed", as you put it), as is being done to Terri Schiavo.

The fact that you are ignoring (or glossing over perhaps) this legislation, and Bush's involvement in it, but making a big noise about the Schiave case seems to me to be not only a bit hypocritical, but excedingly hypocritical.

And my postition on the death penalty (as I've stated elsewhere) is that until and unless it can be one hundred percent guaranteed that the person who is being charged with a capital crime, is the one who committed the crime, there should be no death penalty.

If there is even the tiniest percentage of a chance that an innocent person could possibly be executed for a crime committed by another, it is incredibly hypocritical for you to advocate in favor of the death penalty if you say you support a pro-life position.

So who is the real hypocrit? DougR is the real hypocrite.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: Peace
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 12:33 PM

Many Mudcatters support murder, Martin. Generally, people who DO support it give it another name, but support it they do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder (Sciavo)
From: GUEST,Diogenes
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 12:47 PM

Martin, im hayu samim it hamo'ach shelcha betoch tsipor, hihayta matchila la'uf achora! Ma nisrat lech bamoch?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: EagleWing
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 12:54 PM

I believe the one weak link in the chain touted by folks who favor allowing Terry to die, is there is nothing in writing to support her husband's claim that she would want to die.

Nevertheless, Terry's husband is her next of kin.

Three years ago my wife was rushed to hospital with a subarachnoid haemorrhage. While they were still trying to diagnose that condition she went into a coma. During our marriage she had always insisted that she did not want anyone killing her before her time but that she also did not want anyone playing God and keeping her alive artificially.She considered these two things to be equally wrong. This is the sort of thing that married people sometimes do only say to their spouses. They don't write them down. Thank God, none of Chris' relatives challenged my statement on this. The medical staff knew that any operation to "save" her life would result in a vegatative state and, therefore, allowed her to die.

I was, I am, broken hearted that she died so early. But the idea of keeping her artificially alive like a specimen in a laboratory seems heartless and even, to me, Godless.

Yes, I'm pro-life. I don't generally approve of abortion or euthanasia (please note the word 'generally'). But if it is wrong to kill the living, surely it is equally wrong to artificially keep alive the person who is, to all intents and purposes, dead.

Frank L.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder (Sciavo)
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 12:54 PM

Murder is, by definition, the act of intentionally and unlawfully killing another person

If the state reasonably supports the death penalty, or abortion, then these cannot be murder as they are lawful, as is a soldier killing in a war.
Only if the state is totally insane and out of control, then can a death legal in the state be murder. Deaths in the Holocaust, even if legal in the Nazi regieme, were murder. Legal deaths in Texas are not.

Bunnhabhain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: GUEST,PoppaGator
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 01:06 PM

I've got a question for the super-religious folks who are stirring up so much controversy in the effort to keep poor Terri on life support:

Did you ever consider that this 15-year extrasordinary intervention might be trapping her soul in limbo, preventing her from moving on to whatever comes next?

I'm open to the possibility of an afterlife (or none), and I'm willing to believe that whatever comes next is something we cannot possibly imagine in our current human state. I can't understand why those of you who are so sure about Eternal Life are determined to prevent this poor soul ~ who certainly has long since come to the end of her normal earthly existence ~ from moving on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 01:08 PM

I called my old boss last night. I haven't talked with him for three years, and it was time to catch up. He had been quite a doctrinaire liberal, and his wife told me that he had turned into a "Rush Limbaugh."
So, I got quite a lecture on the Sciavo case, and the Boss is quite sure that Terri could come back to life if only she were given the rehabilitation her husband discontinued several years ago. I dunno. I hate to see the whole case tried in the tabloids and talk shows.

This case has been through several courts, and I still believe in the general integrity of the courts in the U.S. I suppose they fall prey to political influences when the issues have political aspects, and I think that's natural and not really a horrible thing. So, I believe that the courts have made their decisions based on a review of good evidence, even though there may be political aspects to their decision; and I'm willing to live with the court decision.

My dad decided to disconnect my mother's feeding tube in December, and she died. I think it was the right decision.

-Joe Offer-


...and in case anybody wonders - yes, I'm watching this thread. And no, I'm not ready to shut it down.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: Kim C
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 01:11 PM

Let's look at this in some logical-type terms.

I, too, sometimes see what I perceive as an inconsistency of thought - not necessarily on this forum, but just in general. I used to work for a woman who was a staunch vegetarian, because she believed it was cruel to kill animals, yet she was also very pro-choice and thought China's one-child-forced-abortion policy was state of the art. Of course people have the right to believe what they believe, but that never made sense to me. If it's cruel to kill animals to eat or wear them, isn't is also cruel to abort a baby before it's born, or to force a woman to have an abortion because it's government policy?

Likewise, many people argue against capital punishment on the grounds that it's cruel and unusual, and all life is sacred - but some of these same people are also for letting Terri Schiavo, and others like her, die.

So - is ALL life sacred, or is it not?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatters supporting murder
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 01:26 PM

Well, Kim, I have given one perspective that explains why some people are against capital punishment in my 24 Mar 05 - 12:28 PM post, and it is entirely consistent with my positions on all of the other issues you have raised, because is protects innocent life. Why don't you go read it? It might make sense to you.


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