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Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad
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Subject: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: Linda Mattson Date: 26 Mar 05 - 11:51 PM I was totally amazed to learn years ago that the Beach Boys' song "Sloop John B" was traditional. -Linda (waiting to see if someone contradicts that) |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: Boab Date: 27 Mar 05 - 12:02 AM Something 'way back in memory tells me that I was informed that "Love Me Tender" was a "trad" too. [???] |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: Linda Mattson Date: 27 Mar 05 - 12:19 AM Boab, I think the tune for Elvis' Love Me Tender is the same as the song and the southern fiddle tune known as Aura Lee. But I don't know if either song or tune is traditional. I'll do some research, since I know the tune. |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: Linda Mattson Date: 27 Mar 05 - 12:36 AM From Mudcat threads it looks like the song Aura Lea (popular in US Civil War times) was written in 1861, but there is also mention of a British song "Nora Lee" so I wonder. Perhaps the song's old but not Traditional (using the definition that Traditional songs are songs with no known author.) However, I didn't find anything written about the tune. |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: Nerd Date: 27 Mar 05 - 01:22 AM Yes, Sloop John B is traditional, and has been collected from Bahamian fishermen and sailors. My favorite song that surprisingly is trad is "Bo Diddley." He just took the common African-American children's song "Hambone" and replaced the name "Hambone" with "Bo Diddley." |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: pavane Date: 27 Mar 05 - 11:18 AM An English Country Garden is some modern (rather grim and inaccurate) words set to a traditional Morris tune. |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: JohnB Date: 27 Mar 05 - 12:11 PM Six up fer T'Rose Tree :) JohnB |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: Leadfingers Date: 27 Mar 05 - 12:58 PM And dont forget that a lot of revival singers have deliberately written songs in the traditional idiom , some so well that a lot of people now sing these songs in the mistaken belief that they are Trad ! Dave Dodds is one such , as is Dave Webber and the late Keith Marsden . |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: Jim McLean Date: 27 Mar 05 - 04:08 PM I wrote The English Royal Family to the tune English Country garden, maybe grim words but accurate. |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: Dave Hanson Date: 28 Mar 05 - 03:45 AM Isn't that one of Dominic Behans songs Jim ? I remember him singing it at the Grass Roots Folk Club in Halifax in the late sixties or early seventies. eric |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: Jim McLean Date: 28 Mar 05 - 06:18 AM I wrote it Eric, Dom was as old friend and sang it now and again. He had another song to this tune but not about the royal family. His song began 'How many of your best friends are Jews ..' 'If jackboots were marching which would you choose..' |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: Jim McLean Date: 28 Mar 05 - 07:05 AM PS Eric, The English Royal Family was recorded by Nigel Denver in 1966 on Major Minor 'Scottish Republican Songs'. |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: GUEST,Liz the Squeak Date: 29 Mar 05 - 03:03 AM Elvis did a couple that were traditional... 'Wooden heart' was a popular German tune/song before 'G.I. Blues', and one of the ones from 'Blue Hawaii' was a traditional tune, but I can't for the life of me remember which one! I sometimes sing 'Linden Lea' by William Barnes, to the delight of ladies of a certain age, who inform me that they learnt to sing it at school, and are surprised to find out it was probably only 90 - 100 years old when they learned it. It was written in 1859 - does that make it old enough for trad? LTS |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: GUEST,Dave'sWife at work Date: 29 Mar 05 - 04:43 PM I think a lot of folks assume that both the WORDS and tune to 'Love Me Tender'are trad becuase it was featured in a film Elvis starred in that was set during The Civil War. I could be wrong, but I believe the words are modern. |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: Naemanson Date: 29 Mar 05 - 08:28 PM I'm going to change my name to TRAD and reap millions in royalties! |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: paddymac Date: 29 Mar 05 - 10:23 PM "Aura Lee" is an old Irish tune that predates the US Civil War by a long time. Seems like we have had a number of conversations about it here. Must always be careful about accepting publication dates as some sort of "birth date." |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: Liz the Squeak Date: 30 Mar 05 - 02:04 AM But a publication date is a good indicator to possible age.... if it was published in 1880, then it's a fair bet it's a pretty old tune! LTS |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: GUEST,Bill D Date: 30 Mar 05 - 11:44 AM The song that I have had to PROVE was old to some people is "Scarbourough Fair". I know that most of YOU are not fooled, *grin*, but having been recorded so many times, and having been quite popular by a couple of famous groups, many believe it was composed by one of them. |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: GUEST,MMario Date: 30 Mar 05 - 11:48 AM Heard a group last summer do 'the ship that never returned' - and the guy next to me growsed "What a rip-off of 'Charlie on the MTA'!" |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: GUEST,Don Firth (crawled in through the cat flap) Date: 30 Mar 05 - 12:57 PM Yeah, Bill, I had the same go-round about Scarborough Fair (The Elfin Knight, Child #2) shortly after Simon and Garfunkle recorded it. I'd been singing a slightly different version for about five years, and a guy told me I wasn't singing it right. I even showed it to him in a book of ballads, and because the words were slightly different, he insisted that it wasn't the same song. Dope slap!! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: GUEST,Fullerton Date: 31 Mar 05 - 02:46 AM One guitar tutor book (Progressive guitar book 1) claims that Aura Lee is Swiss! |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: mandoleer Date: 31 Mar 05 - 05:41 AM When I was part of a wandering duo, we always used the Whittingham Fair version, just to be awkward. Is that a different Linden Lea to the one with Vaughan Williams's music? 'Cos RVW wasn't composing in 1859... |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: pavane Date: 31 Mar 05 - 06:10 AM If I remember right, Kidson presented 4 different tunes for Scarborough Fair, none of them the one that S&G or Carthy used. The Dransfields also used a different one. |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: Liz the Squeak Date: 31 Mar 05 - 06:29 AM RVW composted the tune that is now associated with Linden Lea. The poem was around for a long time before him, so it may well have picked up another tune. I'd be interested in the dots to it as I'm crap at working out tunes from names! LTS |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: English Jon Date: 31 Mar 05 - 05:53 PM The English haven't had a royal family since 1066. J |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: mandoleer Date: 31 Mar 05 - 07:38 PM When you look at the marriages to foreign princesses that took place, no European country has had a native royal family for a hell of a long time. So what? When you look at what gets elected in most places, accident of birth looks more appealing than political desire (and in some cases, a full wallet). |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: Susanne (skw) Date: 01 Apr 05 - 04:13 PM Being a music (and gardening) illiterate I'd like to know: How do you compost a tune? :-) |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: CapriUni Date: 01 Apr 05 - 04:32 PM Being a music (and gardening) illiterate I'd like to know: How do you compost a tune? :-) Step one: Learn a tune by heart. Step two: Bury it deep in the back of your mind. Step three: Let your conscious mind forget it, while your subconscious breaks it down into simpler componants, and mixes it with bits of all the other tunes you have learned by heart and buried. When you need a new tune, get into a slightly meditative state, reach down int the back of your mind, and see what you pull up. I assure you, you'll find a rich organic, mix of all the tunes you've composted! |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 01 Apr 05 - 06:04 PM CapriUni: That's a wonderful answer! Both as humor and as fact. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: CapriUni Date: 01 Apr 05 - 08:09 PM Thanks, DaveO! This works for other forms of expression, too, from painting, to dance, to literature... you name it. Wasn't it Pete Seeger (or his father?) that said "Plagiarism is the root of all culture."? |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: Linda Mattson Date: 07 Apr 05 - 02:43 AM A while back paddymac said: "Aura Lee is an old Irish tune that predates the US Civil War by a long time. " I'd love to find that on a recording or sheet music. Found nothing on google older than US civil war. Do you know of a source? -Linda |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: Severn Date: 07 Apr 05 - 06:17 PM Elvis was great for a while at recycling traditional tunes. Besides the Aura-Lee transmitted song previously mentioned, "Plaisir d'Amour" was morphed into I Can't Help Falling In Love With You" and "O Sole Mio" into "It's Now Or Never", and there were probably more. Of course He hired some Hollywood hacks to do this for him, so we still can't venerate Him for His "stealing" the way we do with, say, Woody, A.P. Carter and W.C. Handy. But then they're FATHERS and Elvis was a KING, and Kings can afford that kind of thing, and we Americans haven't had a royal family since.....But I digress. Anyway, research shows that Aura and her sister Voca harmonized very well, but sister Ana was the wild one of the Lee family. Quite a colorful family tree. Severn |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: NH Dave Date: 07 Apr 05 - 10:46 PM "Wooden Heart" was set to the German tune "Mus I Den", so like countless others, he used an older tune, modified it a bit, even to using parts of the lyrics in Wooden Heart, and copyrighted it as his own work . . . or that of one of his tune smiths. Actually, as I have mentioned in other threads, this is desirable because it allows you to copyright and record a song and its arrangement, while keeping others from singing it for money, without paying you royalties on the package. Dave |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 07 Apr 05 - 11:42 PM Linda this is YOUR John B THREAD -
Your have posed the theory/queary and the introduction-links contain the answer your question
Give a "stab" at becoming a "scholar." It is not difficult.
Post three references - on MC - or off MC........supporting your original S/JB claim.
Sincerely,
Come on you can do it....just try....you know more than others who might say "no".....READ....THINK.....POST!!!! |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: Splott Man Date: 08 Apr 05 - 03:21 AM Elvis a composer and arranger? I think you're crediting (blaming?) him with more input than he had. I thought the Colonel had control over the repertoire. |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: Lanfranc Date: 08 Apr 05 - 05:48 AM "Aura Lee" is probably as Irish as "Green Fields of France"! I wouldn't be at all surprised if I came across the claim that Adam and Eve were Irish, even though it would be easy to refute - there are no snakes in Ireland! I also suspect that "English Country Garden" as a song predates its use as a Morris tune. There are several sets of words to it, including the version which was written, if I recall correctly, by Miles Wootton, which emphasises the downside of gardens and recommends "take a load of redimix, half a ton of broken bricks, spread it and let it harden". Seriously, though, all songs were composed by someone, sometime. When does a song become "Traditional"? Are Stephen Foster songs traditional? Will Tom Paxton's "Last Thing on my Mind" be traditional 100 years hence? Alan |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: Hrothgar Date: 08 Apr 05 - 06:26 AM In "Singing Soldiers" (Paul Glass and Louis C Singer, da Capo Publications, New York 1975; previously published as "Songs of the Sixties" in 1964) "Aura Lea" is attributed as words by W W Fosdick Esq, music by G R Poulton. |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: Bat Goddess Date: 08 Apr 05 - 07:57 AM And, of course, "Sloop John B" as recorded by the Beach Boys was really only the chorus of the original song. Tom Lewis has recorded the whole song. Linn |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: GUEST,Nerd Date: 08 Apr 05 - 08:33 AM No, the Beach boys recorded the whole song as it was being passed around in the folk revival since the 1940s, and had actually been published in the US by Carl Sandburg in 1927: three verses and a chorus. The two field-recorded versions I have heard from the Bahamas were actually LESS complete than the Beach Boys' version: one in the RW Gordon collection, another collected by Lomax in 1935. I have the Tom Lewis recording, too; can someone post the lyrics? Approximate Beach Boys Lyrics: We come on the sloop John B My grandfather and me Around Nassau town we did roam Drinking all night Got into a fight Well I feel so break up I want to go home So hoist up the John B's sail See how the mainsail sets Call for the Captain ashore Let me go home, let me go home I wanna go home, yeah yeah Well I feel so break up I wanna go home The first mate he got drunk And broke in the Cap'n's trunk The constable had to come and take him away Sheriff John Stone Why don't you leave me alone, yeah yeah Well I feel so break up I wanna go home So hoist up the John B's sail See how the mainsail sets Call for the Captain ashore Let me go home, let me go home I wanna go home, let me go home Why don't you let me go home (Hoist up the John B's sail) Hoist up the John B I feel so break up I wanna go home Let me go home The poor cook he caught the fits And threw away all my grits And then he took and he ate up all of my corn Let me go home Why don't they let me go home This is the worst trip I've ever been on So hoist up the John B's sail See how the mainsail sets Call for the Captain ashore Let me go home, let me go home I wanna go home, let me go home Why don't you let me go home |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: Mrs.Duck Date: 08 Apr 05 - 12:13 PM Lanfranc I think maybe Adam and Eve were Irish and as you must know there used to be snakes there before St Pat! >:0) |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: M.Ted Date: 08 Apr 05 - 12:51 PM Not that it much matters, but "Wooden Heart/Muss I Den" was a popular recording made by Joe Dowell, not by Elvis--all this complaining about Hollywood Hacks stealing folksongs, coming, as it does from the folks around here, is a bit of the pot calling the kettle black. |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: Severn Date: 08 Apr 05 - 04:01 PM "...And I'll say it, not in a calm way When all was said and done He did it Colonel Tooooooooooooooooooom's Waaaaaaaaay!!!!!!!" Severn (on his way out of the building) |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: Severn Date: 08 Apr 05 - 04:01 PM "...And I'll say it, not in a calm way When all was said and done He did it Colonel Tooooooooooooooooooom's Waaaaaaaaay!!!!!!!" Severn (on his way out of the building) |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: GUEST Date: 08 Apr 05 - 05:14 PM Actually, the "Chorus" to the beach Boys Sloop John B is the 2nd verse of the Bahamian folksong. Between verses there is a ifferent tune as a chorus, but with different words. I have seen it in the small Folk book by Hal Leonard, in the same series as Beatles, country and others. I also saw it in the Allan Lomax folk book at our local library. Nassau Boat song. We sailed on the Sloop John B, My grandfather and me. All around Nassau Town we did roam. Drinking all night, got into a fight. I feel so broke up, I want to go home. There's no other place like the sailing ship, Chorus To get an education. You learn to tar the ratlines down, While drink up your rum ration. So hoist up the John B sail. See how the main sail set. Send for the Captain ashore, let we go home! Let we go home. I feel so broke up. Let we go home. We carried the ladies to Nassau, Like other sailing boats. Chorus There were twenty trunk down in the hold, All filled with petticoats. The First Mate he got drunk, Broke up the ladies' trunks. The Constable came on board to take him away. Sherrif John Stone, Leave me alone. I feel so breakup, I want to go home. We eat aboard the Sloop John B, Chorus Just like the very best. But Cookie never calls it food, He only calls it a mess. And Cookie he take fits, and eat up all of my grits. Then he take and throw away all me corn. Sherrif John Stone, let me alone. I feel so break up, I want to go home. The words are colloquial Bahamian. I am doing them from memory, so I am close, so no expert, I live in Nova Scotia. It is a worthy song. |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: GUEST,Nerd Date: 08 Apr 05 - 09:12 PM I'm going to disagree with GUEST. I have not seen a field-recorded version with that chorus. I would take the field recordings as authoritative guides as to what is "The Bahamian folk song" over Hal Leonard's book. The version Lomax collected in 1935 goes approximately like this: Histe Up the John B. Sails, Cleveland Simmons group, Bahamas 1935 – Deep River of Song (Coll. Alan Lomax), Rounder 11661 – 1822-2 Histe up the John B. sails (See how) the mainsail set Then send for the captain 'shore Let me go home (Let me go home) O let me go home (Let me go home) O let me go home (Let me go back home) I feel so break up I want to go home Now the captain and the mate get drunk Then they broke up the people trunk I goin' to send for the captain 'shore Let me go home (Let me go home) O let me go home O let me go home I feel so break up I want to go home Grandpa, Ma and me Was standin'on the railroad block Go send for the captain 'shore Let me go home O let me go home O let me go home, let me go home I feel so break up I want to go home As for the one Lomax published in is 1960 book, that one went like this: THE JOHN B.'S SAILS So h'ist up the John B. 's sail, See how the mains'l's set, Send for the captain ashore, Le' we go home CHORUS: Le' we go home, Le' we go home, I feel so break up, Le' we go home. The cap'n an' the mate got drunk, They broke up the people's trunk, Send for the captain ashore, Le' we go home . . . (CHO.) The cook took runnin' fits An' broke up all my grips, Send for the captain ashore Le' we go home . . . (CHO.) So does anyone know where the chorus GUEST mentions comes from? Sounds to me like someone made it up, and definitely not a Bahamian ("Tar the Ratlines down" is very 19th century British). Is it from Tom Lewis's recording? If so, I'd guess Tom wrote it! |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: GUEST,Nerd Date: 09 Apr 05 - 01:18 PM I dug out Tom's CD and it turns out he got it from the Hal Leonard book, so we're no further along there! |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: Blissfully Ignorant Date: 09 Apr 05 - 01:25 PM Whiskey in the Jar discombobulated me slightly... |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: GUEST Date: 09 Apr 05 - 03:17 PM I was sure that I'd seen it in the 1960 Lomax book, but may be I'm wrong there. I will have to hiyt the library and look again. I think the book is reference, doesn't circulate. If so it should be there. |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: Linda Mattson Date: 09 Apr 05 - 11:43 PM I loved Sloop John B as a teenager, but always thought the lyrics were "Poor boy, the captain is "shore" to let me go home" instead of "Call for the captain ashore, Let me go home." I'd love to hear Tom Lewis' version of Sloop John B. Bat Goddess, do you know which CD this is on? And then there is Les Barker's "Sloop John C" ... but that's another thread. Gargoyle said "this is your John B thread, give a stab at becoming a scholar, Post three references ..." Actually, my idea for this thread was "songs that surprisingly _are_ trad" after reading the thread about songs that are thought to be trad but aren't. I didn't know much about Sloop John B other than it was from the Bahamas. Thanks to everyone who wrote, now I do know something. Isn't Mudcat great! |
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Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad From: GUEST,Nerd Date: 13 Apr 05 - 09:52 AM Just checked the 1960 Lomax book here on the shelf. It's as I gave it above. It's good to actually check the book, though, as GUEST suggests; I had found the version online with a citation to the book, and who knows how accurate that is? But the question remains: where did Hal Leonard get the "Tar the Ratlines Down" line? |
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