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BS: Telling someone to F... off politely

GUEST,12 String Stan 27 Mar 05 - 10:24 AM
Amos 27 Mar 05 - 10:27 AM
Sorcha 27 Mar 05 - 10:31 AM
gnu 27 Mar 05 - 10:37 AM
GUEST,Jon 27 Mar 05 - 10:40 AM
katlaughing 27 Mar 05 - 11:02 AM
Once Famous 27 Mar 05 - 11:04 AM
Bill D 27 Mar 05 - 11:11 AM
The Shambles 27 Mar 05 - 11:17 AM
Stilly River Sage 27 Mar 05 - 11:20 AM
GUEST,Jon 27 Mar 05 - 11:33 AM
GUEST,Jon 27 Mar 05 - 11:36 AM
GUEST,The Shambles 27 Mar 05 - 12:05 PM
Uncle_DaveO 27 Mar 05 - 12:27 PM
SINSULL 27 Mar 05 - 12:32 PM
GUEST,Jon 27 Mar 05 - 12:38 PM
The Shambles 27 Mar 05 - 01:21 PM
Clinton Hammond 27 Mar 05 - 01:23 PM
The Shambles 27 Mar 05 - 01:25 PM
MaineDog 27 Mar 05 - 01:32 PM
catspaw49 27 Mar 05 - 01:45 PM
Once Famous 27 Mar 05 - 01:55 PM
kendall 27 Mar 05 - 02:23 PM
GUEST 27 Mar 05 - 02:26 PM
Richard Bridge 27 Mar 05 - 02:54 PM
Strollin' Johnny 27 Mar 05 - 03:22 PM
Chanteyranger 27 Mar 05 - 03:44 PM
GUEST 27 Mar 05 - 07:18 PM
Once Famous 27 Mar 05 - 08:39 PM
Pauline L 27 Mar 05 - 11:48 PM
Seamus Kennedy 28 Mar 05 - 12:22 AM
GUEST,Jon 28 Mar 05 - 03:05 AM
kendall 28 Mar 05 - 06:36 AM
mooman 28 Mar 05 - 07:52 AM
GUEST,12 string stan 28 Mar 05 - 09:26 AM
GUEST,Partridge 29 Mar 05 - 04:10 AM
GUEST,brucie 29 Mar 05 - 04:36 AM
GUEST 29 Mar 05 - 04:45 AM
GUEST 29 Mar 05 - 02:38 PM
Peace 29 Mar 05 - 02:41 PM
Seamus Kennedy 29 Mar 05 - 03:05 PM
robomatic 29 Mar 05 - 04:19 PM
Uncle_DaveO 29 Mar 05 - 04:59 PM
jacqui.c 29 Mar 05 - 05:34 PM
GUEST 29 Mar 05 - 08:45 PM
number 6 29 Mar 05 - 10:29 PM
GUEST,Chip2447 30 Mar 05 - 12:33 AM
GUEST,Jon 30 Mar 05 - 03:33 AM
GUEST,Mappa Mundi. 30 Mar 05 - 05:12 AM
GUEST 30 Mar 05 - 08:50 AM

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Subject: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST,12 String Stan
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 10:24 AM

I have a dilema.
I put this in BS: as i feel it's not strictly musicially related, although in a way it is.

I host every Tuesday, a session in our local pub, where friends and other musicans, and so on, are all welcome to join in the merriment, and we generally have a good time, but of late a curse has befallen us. A young chap (20) has moved to town and insists on coming to the session every week. Now PLEASE do not get me wrong, I believe all musicans good bad or indifferent, professional or amateur deserve the right to display the fruits of their musical ability, and no better place than a session for such. His weapons consist of Guitar, whistle Bodhran and when drunk, the banjo. Problem being the dear chap has not got one ounce of musical ability in his body. He carries no sense of timing, No sense of order or politeness when others are performing, And generally upsets and destroys what could be a good night.

We have politely corrected him, suggested subtly about "leaving the instrument down for this one" and all other polite suggestions, which fell on either deaf or totally stupid ears, as the situation has not changed he has thrown us out of sets totally, making us hang tunes in mid air, and is becoming a real nuisance. Of late i have had a few stern words with him, which sink in for about an hour but then all is forgotten. I really need a failproof method of letting him know that he is not really welcome,without hurting his feelings too much

I KNOW this has to have happened to others, and just wondered if you would have any thoughts on the subject

I remind you again, I fully support young, up and coming and learning musicans but this chap really is a special case.


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Amos
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 10:27 AM

Give him an evasive answer. Tell him "Fuck off, politely".

It is possible you will just have to inform him he has abused his welcome, and the protocol;s of the group, too often and will be debarred.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 10:31 AM

Move the session and don't tell him?


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: gnu
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 10:37 AM

In addition to the posts you will get on this thread, I know there are at leats two others in the past dealing with this. I can't recall the thread names right off, but a forum search may bring you results. I would search, but I have to buzz pretty soon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 10:40 AM

I think it's a situation we all dread. Fortunately ones I have known have taken the hints and frosty reception.

You are just going to have to do whatever it takes. Try it politely at first but if he can't see it, you are going to have to tell him he's not welcome one way or other.


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 11:02 AM

Suggest he take some lessons and come back after he's improved?

Probably being honest is the best and only thing which will really get through, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 11:04 AM

An open and honest, "fuck off, please?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 11:11 AM

" while we appreciate that you are interested & trying, you do not seem to realize that you are not keeping up and fitting in, and the entire session is suffering. If you cannot handle the minimum requirements for music and awareness of the rules, we would ask that you drop out or just mostly listen, as the whole group is suffering from the situation...perhaps some private lessons would help...." etc.

*shrug*...you can write something similar.


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 11:17 AM

If the session is held in a pub - to which all the public have free access to - the only thing in your power - if you really don't like the way the session is - is to leave it.

Sadly when you feel you have start telling other participants (no matter how annoying) how, when and what to play - the session is dead.


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 11:20 AM

Sounds like as the host you need to make up a new rule for the group. Does anyone in the regular membership teach any of his instruments? You can suffer along for a while, or you can antagonize him with the rude dismissal and create some bad feelings (and who knows, possibly a retaliation?), or you can insist that if he keeps coming then he has to take lessons from So-and-so. During the course of the lessons the discussion needs to regularly and pointedly go into proper demeanor at this kind of session.

At that age, and with that interest level, he sounds like someone who could really benefit from guidance with a firm hand. Who knows what else he might be up to, otherwise?

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 11:33 AM

Not at all Shambles. If the guy is as bad as the first post suggests, the only certainty is that the session would die if he keeps playing.

Without him, the session may well keep going for years and still open doors to others without the need to have any rules.

Accepting poor players is one thing but there are some players who are destructive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 11:36 AM

Not at all Shambles. If the guy is as bad as the first post suggests, the only certainty is that the session would die if he keeps playing.

Without him, the session may well keep going for years and still open doors to others without the need to have any rules.

Accepting poor players is one thing but there are some players who are destructive.

Be honest, how long would you and your session put up with me if I came down weekly and battered an out of time bodhran loudly and say interspersed it with thrashing bad chords on the banjo. I could make it quite impossible for any of you to enjoy your music.


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 12:05 PM

Be honest, how long would you and your session put up with me if I came down weekly and battered an out of time bodhran loudly and say interspersed it with thrashing bad chords on the banjo. I could make it quite impossible for any of you to enjoy your music.

We already have someone who does that - thank you......' Sadly they do appear to driven some of the less tolerant regular attendees away. It is sad and very irritating but it is not my pub.

For you first do have to accept the limitations of where you are playing. For where does it stop? Do you then start telling the noisy bunch at the bar to leave the pub? The licensee will probably throw you out if you started picking and choosing his customers for them.

I did say that it was sad but if folk don't follow the conventions - this does not give you the right to start flouting them too. There is no polite way of telling someone to **** ***.

Our long-running tune session - currently has one person who has attended for some time and is fully aware of this convention but still tries every week to turn it into something else - by starting to sing even though there are song sessions elsewhere locally and even - on the same night.

Probably as a result of the previous week being on 'Paddy's' Night' - where a gesture was made towards a more party feel - an attempt to sing Dirty Old Town was followed this week by an attempt at The Wild Rover. I left the session at that point - and if the same thing happens again - I will leave again.........


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 12:27 PM

If you had or have control of the venue, several of you organize a private session club, (with wallet membership cards, no less?) The old, open session is closed down.

New member applicants can/must attend three times before being voted on for membership; after three they must be voted on. If rejected by vote of the membership, it's permanent. So you endure him for three times, and then vote. Well, whadaya know? He didn't get enough votes. G'bye!

Oh, it's in a pub? Durn, that is a problem.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 12:32 PM

Assign someone to sit next to him and gently give him a nudge when he offends. "No" in his ear with a warning ahead of time that it will happen if he throws off another player. Good luck.


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 12:38 PM

Agreed there are limits. I'd not start telling noisy people at the bar to shut up. I think participants in the session are another matter - it can't even be good for the landlord if one person at the "musicians' table" is disrupting procedings. Fortunately it's been a few years since I remember a session being ruined and I think in the ones I go to now, I wouldn't be the first to speak up.

I'm afraid I don't worry too much about being polite to someone like the person in your instrumental session. I do enjoy the occasional song but the session I like best is purely instrumental. When I first went there I didn't burst into song but found out what the feeling in that session was towards singing. I do believe when people move in on an established session, they should make the effort to fit in with what other participants may even have been enjoying together for years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 01:21 PM

Agreed there are limits. I'd not start telling noisy people at the bar to shut up.

Yes but people like me (who would be thought by some to be the type who would bully barmaids) would not be adverse to this...*smiles*

Hey - the question posed in this thread is not an anology - is it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 01:23 PM

"he is not really welcome,without hurting his feelings too much"

Why be a pussy... Especially when a good "Fuck Off" is quick and easy...


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 01:25 PM

I think one of the problems is that if you (as session leader or organiser or whatever) are seen to be laying down rules in a pub - like no singing etc - some folk seem to see that as a red-rag to a bull and will then do their best to just to mess things-up for everyone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: MaineDog
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 01:32 PM

Make a recording of one of these sessions. Make a CD of it, lable it
"Starring " Give it to him, and tell him you hope he likes it. Then pray.

MD


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 01:45 PM

SHAMBLES: "Hey - the question posed in this thread is not an anology - is it?"

Works for me..........

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 01:55 PM

Hey Clinton and I agree on something.

find your balls.

I am lucky that I play in a bi-weekly bluegrass/accoustic jam that is held at a church. We get these loser types come in pretty often. One by one we just leave and go into another room. There are about 3 or 4 different jams going on at any given time. The beginners are always encourage to play with the advanced players until it is obvious that they just screw it up. Eventually, they find a room of beginners that they fit in with.


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: kendall
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 02:23 PM

Listening to someone with no timing singing and playing off key is painful to me, and I don't go to sessions to be annoyed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 02:26 PM

Then there are the "noodlers" who constantly pick out of turn like they are the only ones in a circle, preventing the person whos turn it is from getting started. What are they thinking? Are they stupid or just oblivious?


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 02:54 PM

I could not accept excluding singers from tune sessions or instrumentalists from song sessions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 03:22 PM

Someone said that he can't be excluded because the session's in a pub - I'd seriously question that assertion. If the session is organised by the landlord that may be true but, if it's organised by a group of customers then surely they, the organising group, have a pretty big say on who can join in? In the latter case, although you can't stop this guy coming in to the pub, you surely can ask him not to play? Give him a full and frank explanation, if he insists on playing then there's no option - tell him to Foxtrot Oscar.


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Chanteyranger
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 03:44 PM

What Bill D said. If that fails, then what Martin said.

Chanteyranger


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 07:18 PM

be a man!!
have the guts to tell him to fuck off
.or punch some sense into the stupid boy


btw .. you sound like a right condecending ****


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 08:39 PM

And that is about as polite as I will say it to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Pauline L
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 11:48 PM

Bill D's suggestion is both direct and diplomatic. I second the motion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 28 Mar 05 - 12:22 AM

Let him play as long as he fits in.
Then when he starts to get bothersome, everyone stop playing, put your instruments away, start drinking, and let him play on his own.
Repeat as necessary.

Seamus


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 28 Mar 05 - 03:05 AM

Never seen that in a session Seamus but I remember something similar happen in a folk club. Somone had a floor spot and was quite drunk. He took it upon himself to wind the PA up high. It was a nice summer evening and somone suggested we should take our drinks outside. Everyone did this and he was left entertaining himself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: kendall
Date: 28 Mar 05 - 06:36 AM

Good one Guest Jon.
If one can't outsmart an asshole, well...


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: mooman
Date: 28 Mar 05 - 07:52 AM

A different perspective maybe...

After 30 odd years of playing in sessions I've seen a few of these. A "polite" f*** o** (if there is such a thing) is not really a satisfactory solution. If he does go....he will probably go and do the same at somebody else's pub session somewhere else. You say he hasn't any musical ability or etiquette but not all mortals are born with these virtues. Is there any possibility, inside or outside the session, of working with him to help him in these areas?

I have seen, and have on one or two occasions helped, such "basket cases" achieve at least some level of proficiency and sensitivity. (Indeed that is one reason why I tend to teach more than gig these days, as I find helping others infinitely more satisfying). He obviously has some degree of motivation, as he has several instruments and comes along every week, and might appreciate that approach and the desire of others to help him integrate better.

It's true too that sometimes you can't in the end do much to help some people and then possibly honesty (without rudeness) may the best solution (I've had to do that too but rarely).

Peace

moo


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST,12 string stan
Date: 28 Mar 05 - 09:26 AM

Soree for deserting the thread for a bit.
A few good points raised above, but i failed to mention, the notion of perhaps nuturing his festering ability will not work, because in his eyes, he is one of the best musicians that ever walked the earth, and has no need to stoop as low as to be listening to constructive critisism about himself.

To clear up the setting of the session raised early on, the story is thus
5 years ago one of the local publicans asked us to do a tuesday night session for two weeks, which went so well, it was extended for a month, which went so well it was extended for the summer, which went so well, well it's 5 years later now and a regular fixture, firm favourite with local musicians and customers.
The pub is split into three bars, the first one you walk into through the door is where we host the session. Myself and 2 friends are the main stays of the session (we get paid) and on average are joined by 8 other musicians, sometimes more, sometimes less, who come for the evening out, and nothing else, Amongst the crowd are always a handfull of talented local singers who are called upon to do their piece, and generally good order is, well, the order of the day. If people have no interest in the music, they take themselves off to one of the other bars, leaving us to it, as it should be.
As the person who was asked to start it, it is me who is the host, m/c of the night and we have a good time, so it therefore falls on my head to keep the session in good order, which is where the problem lies, Maybe as suggested, i should just tell him to FUCK OFF, but i would feel soooo bad for doing so, although i'm sure there'd be a round of applause and a few drinks got for me!!
Till later catters!


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST,Partridge
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 04:10 AM

Get someone to be a stooge - a pretend newcomer. Tell him in front of everyone "the rules" Get your stooge to question why you have such rules. You can then have an open discussion about them so that your problem musician knows whats expected. When he next breaks a rule - get the stooge to stand up and point it out to him. Hopefully that might work. You could also try a prayer to the angel of the music session

Pat x


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST,brucie
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 04:36 AM

Sorry, Stan, but I fail to see why you feel you must be polite when he is not. The next time he picks up the banjo when he shouldn't, tell him to put the thing down or he will have to leave. In some places (I understand) even the mere possession of a bodhran is call for a lynching.

The problem may be that y'all are being TOO polite. Just tell him to either get with the program or het without it. Simple, IMO, and effective.


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 04:45 AM

Start by owning the problem. Then tell him about your problem eg "John, I have a problem when you join in with me on this song: your interpretation is so different from mine. I'd be grateful if you'd not play" This is what each person who is concerned must do - if they want him not to play, tell him.

If there are no tunes he can play with, and he joins in to the detriment of the music despite requests not to, stop playing. Have a drink and talk for five minutes


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 02:38 PM

Ask him to play a lttle quieter.

Ask if he can play in time.


Keep on asking him.

Ask him ,please dont play the banjo.

When he plays the bod ask if he can use brushes

Youre new to all this arent you?

Have you considered music lessons?

Will the landlord speak to him?








cough


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Peace
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 02:41 PM

Sit next to him, put your arm around his shoulder and

1) kiss his neck
2) tell him you have crabs
3) sneeze on his shirt


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 03:05 PM

If the polite method hasn't worked, then I once again suggest trying my way.
Of course, all your regular musicians have to agree to do it.
When he starts, put your instruments away, grab your beers and either talk among yourselves, or go outside.
I actually saw this work at a session, and no, I wasn't the cause of it.

Seamus


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 04:19 PM

$10 fine or drinks all round whenever playing out of tune, to be determined by majority.


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 04:59 PM

I really like what Robomatic said: The fine. Establish the fine by (prearranged) vote when he's there. Of course, given your description of him, he'll run afoul of it. Call him on it. He'll either pay up grudgingly, with protest, or walk out.

If he pays up, given who he seems to be, he'll run afoul of it again. (And again and again?)

Eventually he'll either shape up (you should live so long) or stop coming around.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: jacqui.c
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 05:34 PM

I agree with Brucie. Why feel bad about making it clear to this person that he is spoiling the evening for every one else?

It seems that we are conditioned to put up with all sorts of crap because 'it isn't NICE to be rude to other people'. Well, this isn't being rude, it's just stating a fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 08:45 PM

We want you to learn by being here but you aren't advanced enough to play with us, yet. So listen, only. please. Thank you. .


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: number 6
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 10:29 PM

Well said mooman.

I agree with you. Why discourage someone. Who knows with a little help they could be an outstanding musician.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST,Chip2447
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 12:33 AM

Music snobs, the lot of you. More of the elitist crap that flows like water around here. Maybe you should look back on your own time as a brash youngster and remember how shitty you played, or how no one could tell you anything because you knew it all. Some of you can't deny it, because you've never outgrown it.

Either take him in and teach him, or move your session elsewhere.
Take your elitest snobbish selves and fuck off.

Music isnt just for those of you who are good at what you do. Music is for everyone, especially FOLK MUSIC.

I've been a member here for a long time, and am by the standards of most of the 'Catters) I am nothing more than a rank(read that as stinky) musician/singer/songwriter. You think that will
stop me from doing what I love. You've got another thing coming. Tell me to fuck off and I'll just grit my teeth and sing louder.

Chip2447 (slam away)


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 03:33 AM

Speak for yourself Chip2447. I was not like that and I know plenty of others who weren't. A lot of people do recognise the better players and even go as far as trying to learn from them.

I've never thought the attitude described as an age thing. I've known middle age people start and know it all with in a week. A difficulty is they tend to lack listening skills both ways a) to the music being played (which one can do while playing) and b) to any comments made.

That said, maybe mooman is right and there is a chance but even he say's he's met some you can't win with. Whatever, I don't see not wanting a session being ruined as being elitist. As I indicated before, there is a big difference between a weak player (somone I hope we all accept and try to help) and a destructive player (someone who is usually loud, incompetent and lacking in any social awareness).


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST,Mappa Mundi.
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 05:12 AM

Hire a bouncer! or tell me where your club is and i'll - ahem, ask him to leave for you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 08:50 AM

This story sorta reminds me of one I heard about a young black guitar player back in the mid 60's. He was just out of the Army, trying to find a living playing in various R & B bands. He was constantly turned down, or kickout of the bands. They said he couldn't play worth a shit. Their version of politely or inpolitely telling him to f@$k off.

His name was Jimi Hendrix


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Mudcat time: 27 October 6:01 PM EDT

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