BS: Telling someone to F... off politely

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Margo
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 12:52 AM

well, the first thing that occurred to me is that he is lacking the ability to read people and situations. I am very familiar with this problem as it runs in my family (siblings) and both my kids have autism ( the extreme.)


Simply tell him this is not the right place for him but you've got to have some solid suggestions for an alternative for him so he can try another group or find a teacher....

There's my 2 cents..

Margo

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: mooman
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 04:31 AM

Oh dear...but where is Stan? He still hasn't reappeared yet! Sometimes a polite "F*** *** can offend!

Getting more worried...!

moo

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 03:20 AM

Go forth and multiply according to your kind....

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Peace
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 08:02 PM

"Telling someone to F... off politely"

Two words: Sex, Travel

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: gnu
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 03:24 PM

Ahh. In the context and persuant, if you will allow, to the subject, I found my post rather FUNny. Otherwise, that is, when it is not humourous, in my mind, which, oddly enough, is the only mind I have to go by, I seldom use such profanity, finding polite and subtle prose much more effective. Of course, with my warped sense of humour, I could curse every fucking time I post.

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 03:14 PM

I didn't find it fun at all....

Gratuitous, puerile and pointless yes.... fun no.

But I don't care.

And I thought the idea of this thread was to find a way of telling people POLITELY to fuck off.... Gnu, you were blunt and direct... but not polite!

LTS

: )

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: gnu
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 03:10 PM

Oh well, if you are having fun, have at it. I would never purport to take a bauble from a baby.

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 03:09 PM

I don't know MD but I suspect this is more of a personality problem.
My father suffers from Menniers disease and his hearing is not to good in one ear and he gets a whistling too. His hearing seems more sensitive to some noises though. Something like a plate being dropped and smashing is one that nearly sends him through the roof.

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: MaineDog
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 03:01 PM

Are we missing something here? I begin to wonder if this offender has some sort of hearing problem. Is there such a thing as auditory dyslexia?
I confess that I have a hearing problem that causes me to hear different pitches in my two ears, depending somewhat on the sound levels involved.
This happened as a result of Menieurs disease, which severely reduced my hearing on one side as well. It took me a long time to learn (?) to cope with this problem.
MD

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST,Not that guest, nor the other one...
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 02:52 PM

Well, some of us think it's DARN FUN, so there! Phhhhbbbbbbt!

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 02:49 PM

Oh well the numbers didn't work in sequence and I promise never to do that again but I could beat the lot of you too 100 anytime I wanted to. That's how silly I think it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: gnu
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 02:47 PM

Oh, fuck off.

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 02:46 PM

110

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 02:46 PM

109

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 02:46 PM

107

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 02:46 PM

108

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 02:46 PM

106

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 02:46 PM

105

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 02:46 PM

103

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 02:46 PM

104

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 02:46 PM

102

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 02:46 PM

101

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 02:31 PM

YAYYYYY!!!!

I got a ton!!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 02:31 PM

I can't resist.....

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 02:30 PM

Very Close....

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST,saulgoldie
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 02:04 PM

Gettin mighty close to 100!

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: gnu
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 01:57 PM

Off topic a bit... I recall the late Pierre Elliot Trudeau dealing with a rather persistant heckler one time. He finally invited the young man to approach the dais, leaned over to him and, covering his mouth from view, said something. The young man fell silent.

Later, when asked by the press what he had said, Trudeau replied something like (memory fails me), "I simply spoke to him in a language I knew he would undertsand." Of course, the fact was that whatever he said, he could back up, and did on more than one occasion.

Now, back to the scrap, er, session. What HAPPENED?

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 12:15 PM

Well, I'll drink to that - mutual respect 'n' all

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: mooman
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 09:13 AM

Stan's failure to appear has me a bit worried...

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 06:25 AM

As this thread is clearly music-related and has stubbonly remained so - perhaps (with its originator's consent) it deserves to be promoted out of the B/S section?

There, it will I am sure - be of interest to many more posters who would not think to look for music-related threads - like this one - below the line and do not even venture into these murky waters.........

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Alba
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 07:32 PM

Yeah 12 String....how did it go???
It's a nail bitter:>)


The Scene- A Session in a Pub. Musicians sitting around chatting preparing to begin their Weekly session..
The Door opens. A young man enters the Bar loaded down with various Instruments.
At the table the Musicians see the Young man and groan and whisper "oh no it's him again" .."oh I can't believe it he has Bagpipes with him this week"
The Young man comes across the Bar and sits down at the Session table...suddenly.... Stan the Man leans across and says to the Young man..........

Come on Stan, what went down...lol
Blessings
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Hawker
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 06:19 PM

So 12 string stan, tell us, did he show at your session on Tuesday? did he say anything? Did you? did he 'play'? come on! the suspense is killing us!!!!!!!!!!!
Cheers, Lucy

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 06:55 AM

The issue is about mutual respect and can only be addressed by the application of mutual respect - not by groundless prejudice and name-callng.

The very best sessions that I have attended were mixed affairs where no form of music- making was inhibited. These fine affairs usually occur at festivals or at one-off happenings - when mainly strangers find themselves in group and making music together.

I don't think the mixed session - with largely the same participants - really ever works on a regular basis.

It is not that one is better that the other - or make any claim to be - it is just that the object of the execise is different. One is a series of perfomances (to some form of audience) and the other is the involvement of all present - in one big performance.

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 08:18 PM

I know of song sessions that discourage and/or don't allow instruments... due to folks' experiences with inconsiderate instrumentalists, such as:

• the one who starts noodling about on their instrument as soon as a song finishes, pre-empting anyone else from having a go (also mentioned by Guest on 27 March)

• the one who enthusiastically "accompanies" the singers – in a different key...

• the one who accompanies – in the right key, but doesn't pay attention to the tempo set by the person singing the song; you can generally cope with one person singing at a slightly different tempo, but an instrument is overpowering enough that everyone ends up at the same tempo as the instrument, whether they wished to or not...

Richard, I'm surprised that you consider it arrogant for a group to decide whether they want their session to involve singing or jamming only (or both). I confess that I think it's entirely reasonable. Heck, you don't go to a Def Leppard concert and say "I want to hear some Cole Porter. Why won't you play "Begin the Beguine?" would it be arrogant for them to say 'You can bloody forget the Beguine, and no, we won't be letting you sing "My Heart Belongs to Daddy" during the interval, either...'?

It's not "singers" or "instrumentalists" who are arrogant, of course; there are always folks – of every persuasion – who are insensitive/oblivious and/or arrogant and who – consciously or not – impose upon others unless boundaries are set. I don't consider it arrogant to set boundaries, nor to say "This behaviour is extremely disruptive to the group and will not be permitted"; what is arrogant is to assume that clearly-defined boundaries do not apply to oneself. On the other hand, it is certainly arrogant/unfair to apply whatever limits exist in a selective manner – say, because you like this person more than that other person. But I don't get the impression that that is what's happening in the situations above – or if it is, it's in the opposite direction; the limits are being unequally applied because individuals who (by all accounts) should know better are ignoring them, while the rest of the group self-regulates/follows the "rules".

Just my 2p...

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 07:11 PM

Not so. Most song sessions welcome participation, instrumental or vocal.

Self-aggrandising diddlers, enjoy the ghetto you are building for yourselves. May you never accept that someone else might be just as good as you are. How else could you stay pure?

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 09:48 AM

DUH!!!

It should read.......

When you attend a song session - you accept that you will be part of an audience - rather than a participant - for most of the evening - waiting for your turn to lead a song (except for joining in the chorus).

When you attend a TUNE session - you expect that you will not be part of an audience at all - but a participant for most of the evening.

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 04 Apr 05 - 07:24 PM

Funny thing is that it mainly seems to be the music sessions that object to singing, not vice versa.

And for the very good reasons already given........

However, it also seems that tunes sessions are the only ones that are forced to be placed in the position of having to object.

As I say - few tune session particpants do object. But that does not make the practice of insisting on flouting the convention - the correct or the polite thing to do.

When you attend a song session - you accept that you will be part of an audience - rather than a participant - for most of the evening - waiting for your turn to lead a song (except for joining in the chorus).

When you attend a song session - you expect that you will not be part of an audience at all - but a participant for most of the evening.

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: mooman
Date: 04 Apr 05 - 12:29 PM

Richard,

Not in my experience!

Richard

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 04 Apr 05 - 12:11 PM

Richard, in a mostly instrumental session, songs are often solos and tunes are generally for all to join in with. Also, singers tend to need/demand a greater degree of silence than musicians. I don't mind and sometimes enjoy the occasional song in that type of situation and sometimes even give a song myself.

That said there is a limit to how many times people who have come primarily to play music together want to shut up and listen. Apart from anything else, it can break the flow of a session. In my experience, a group of a dozen or more musicians rarely get really together until a few sets of tunes have been played and if you are stopping and starting for singers every other set of tunes, the evening may never get into full flow.

As I said, my own choice is to have a few songs - maybe 3 or 4 in an evening (unless it's a late night and too much beer has been consumed... when maybe there is room for more singing...) but I can understand why some instrumental sessions prefer just to have no singing.

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Apr 05 - 11:44 AM

Funny thing is that it mainly seems to be the music sessions that object to singing, not vice versa.

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 04 Apr 05 - 10:10 AM

Hmm Michelle, I can't see why they should want to be snotty with you for asking a perfectly reasonable question... From what you have said, I can only assume this particular group are not worthy of your company. Glad you have found better places.

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: LilyFestre
Date: 04 Apr 05 - 09:08 AM

Hey Jon,

I'd PM you but you are signed in as a Guest and do you have any idea how many Jon's there are in the list to pick from? LOL

   In any case, I just wanted to mention that the particular group I was speaking of is cold to most new folks. I only went the one time but I have heard from others that the type of behavior I observed was typical. I arrived early at the jam and went in to inquire about what kind of music they played, etc. I didn't even take my instrument in the building. The attitude I received was snotty and incredibly unwelcoming. I did not ask to lead any songs or anything like that at all. I hadn't even told these people what instrument I play. I decided that maybe they were having an off day and decided to sit and listen. I'm not interested in showing off or running the show...I just wanted to play.

    I'm a bit shy around new folks so I thought perhaps it was me...but having heard others having the same experience, I'm sure it is just as cliquey as I felt it to be.

   I have attended other jams in the area. One of them was open to EVERYBODY and if it was your first time playing or your 10,001st time playing, the people were encouraging and we usually had a grand time. The easier songs were played earlier in the evening and then progressed as the night went on. If there was something you couldn't play, didn't know or were just plain tired of playing, that was fine too. It was informal and fun.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 04 Apr 05 - 09:02 AM

And on 2 seconds more thought I've just remembered hearing one other singing. So we are up to 50% already...

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 04 Apr 05 - 09:00 AM

I think it is true that singers sometimes do forget that quite a few people in purely instrumental sessions do also sing. I think out of our regular core of say 12, I've heard 4 (or 5 if you count me) sing in other settings and it's quite possible that out of the remainder there are other singers.

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Apr 05 - 08:06 AM

Speaking as both singer of songs and a tune player - I would never presume to change the obvious nature of a session and would expect not to very popular - if I did. The object is surely to contribute to and enhance the tune session - not to star in it - or change it?

There is is a more arrogance displayed in being perfectly aware of the convention that this particlar event is not for singing - and flying in the face of this convention - by not only only insisting that one song won't hurt - but by further making the assumption that they alone should be the singer of this single song.

The folk who still insist on singing at a tune session - appear to do it in the expectation of everyone else stopping to listen to them - and of receiving applause. Perhaps their singing would not receive the same attention - (mainly as a novelty to wall-to-wall tunes - and stand-out) - if they were singing along with other singers at a song session?

Perhaps this is the main reason some singers will still insist on flouting convention and imposing their singing on a tune session and of excusing this arrogance?

Do they not accept that there may be many others who may also wish to sing a song at a tune session - but do not do so - as they are respecting the convention and each other? Surely if it is accepted by the determined singer that there will be limited time for any singing - it should be accepted that it is better for no one to sing?

I am always amazed when this arrogance is displayed and a song is imposed by the singer upon the members of a tune session. For very rarely have I witnessed any reciprocal rudeness. Perhaps this undeserved politeness is mistakenly excused for approval and acceptance?

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST,Deni-C
Date: 04 Apr 05 - 07:24 AM

In our folk club we had a slip with a few pointers of etiquette on them. If someone gets a bit too much you can just pass them a slip and ask them to have a read. Some people just don't take hints. Sounds like this chap might be one of them.
Cheers
Deni

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 04 Apr 05 - 06:51 AM

It is also breathtakingly arrogant to join in with someone and bugger up their performance. Either the person in question lacks a degree of awareness or he couldn't give a monkeys. If the former he needs to be advised of the unwritten etiquette the majority adhere to or, if the latter, he needs to be told to go away ... in short jerky movements if necessary

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Apr 05 - 06:16 AM

I have been considering this further. I have decided that teling people they cannot sing at a tune session is wholly unacceptable, as would be telling people they cannot play a tune at a song event. It is arrogance of an almost breathtaking kind.

I think it is arrogance of a breathtaking kind - to place other people in the position of feeling that they have a choice to either spell-out - what is blindingly obvious - or be imposed upon.

If you had a pub with limited space - it may be convention that on certain nights the pool table was used and on others that it would be covered-up to allow darts to be played in the same area.

It would be arrogance of a breathtaking kind for someone - in full knowledge of this convention - to arrive and insist on un-covering the pool table to play pool - when the rest of people present attended on the understanding that it was a darts night.

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 04 Apr 05 - 05:15 AM

I have suffered at the hands of such individuals, agree amongst yourselves that when he joins in each and every person stops playing leaving him to carry on. Indicate (politely)to him that you cannot follow his rythym and that if he wishes to continue he can do so alone. Hopefully he may quickly get the message, otherwise the direct approach which you are trying to avoid may have to be resorted to in order to maintain the session, sadly you will lose more people by not taking the direct approach as others will drift away

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 04 Apr 05 - 04:28 AM

I've never understood a lot of comments about hostile sessions, Michelle, as I have had few problems and it isn't because I'm a great player because I'm not - there are much better players than me in just about every session I go to...

My favourite session round here doesn't have the best of reputations and some will have it that it is snobbish or elitist but I was welcomed when I first went there I guess about 4 years ago. I suppose its fair to say that it is not a beginners' session (by that I mean maybe they would slow a couple of tunes down for someone starting to learn but generally speaking tunes run at a reasonable "danceable" pace) and it contains some excellent players but that is about it.

I do wonder at times whether people sometimes alienate themselves (eg. demanding a song in a purely instrumental session or perhaps demonstrating to everyone how "good" they are - "showing off" is not always appreciated) or expect too much of a welcome at once.

I say I was welcomed (as I was) but it took time. The first week, probably the most encouraging sign was that I was shown no hostility and people did say "hello" and "goodnight", the second week, they got me to start a couple of tunes a bit more conversation, and things built up gradually until these people became good friends. I'd not been able to get to a session since Christmas until last week and I was greeted to hugs and handshakes and even got a ticking off from one because I had arrived without my banjo.

I think what I'm trying to say is I think at times you do have to remember that you are a newcomer in an estabished group (in this case, some have known each other for more than 20 years) and they might be as nervous of you as you are of them. Had I read the first week as "well noone really said much to me and they didn't go 'wow we have a new player'" and decided that meant I wasn't really wanted, I'd have missed out on good music and good company.

I suppose ideally it is better if people are made to feel that little bit more wanted from day one but on top of everything else I said, I don't think all sessions contain the sort of extrovert character to do that.