Lyr Req: The Garden Where the Praties Grow

Subject: The Garden Where the Praties Grow*
From: Peter T.
Date: 07 Dec 98 - 10:17 AM

In the song "The Garden Where the Praties Grow" there is reference made to the fact that the girl is made "without the Grecian bend". Checking this out in the DT, there is a tempting asterisk right by the phrase, but no explanation attached (that is about as infuriating a tease as things get outside of the garden where the, etc., etc.)!!! Can anyone enlighten me as to what this means (and maybe we can reattach the asterisk?)

Yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: The Garden Where the Praties Grow
From: Jack Hickman
Date: 08 Dec 98 - 12:11 AM

My favourite party song. If I had a nickel for every time I was in my cups and sang this song I'd be a hell of a lot richer than I am now.

Somewhere along the line, someone explained to me that back when this song was written, early in this century, women's fashions called for the wearing of a type of bustle which gave them a deformed look in the rear, and this was called a Grecian Bend.

While I'm pontificating, and just in case you didn't know, a chignon is a type of hairpiece popular in the period.

I'd be interested in hearing other theories as the meaning.

Jack Hickman

Subject: RE: The Garden Where the Praties Grow
From: Frank in the swamps
Date: 08 Dec 98 - 04:26 AM

From Gilbert Chase, "America's Music":

...The basic symbol of sociocultural mobility in the genteel tradition is probably that of the "Grecian Bend"—an extraordinary fad, which flourished circa 1858-1869. It became indeed a national craze...a fashionable female with a minuscule parasol, high-heeled gaiters, and a prominent bustle.

He quotes a line from a work song...

"I'm goin' to ship on the Eagle Tender,
Buy my wife a Grecian bender."

He quotes other popular songs of the times...

"Girls can't get drunk, nor fight the tiger like men,
They at the club can't meet a friend,
Can't bet on horses, nor can they play base ball,
So let them sport their Grecian Bend."

OR...

"Miss Dinah Snow," of sable hue,
In festive style arrayed,
Came loit'ring down the avenue,
The Grecian she displayed;
Accosting her in sportive mood,
She thus to me appeals,
"I carry sir, the 'Grecian Bend'
To balancy my heels."

Yes, the Grecian Bend was a BIG BUSTLE! I haven't searched through the sheet music sites on our links page, but if you're ambitious enough to go look see, I'm staring at a photocopy of a sheet music cover called ...taa daa...

"The Grecian Bend"
Words, Martin Beyer.
Music, John Molter,
Published by Molter & Wurlitzer. 1868.

Tellin' ya, baby got back. Frank i.t.s.

Subject: RE: The Garden Where the Praties Grow
From: Peter T.
Date: 08 Dec 98 - 09:54 AM

Thank you Jack and Frank, I knew about the chignon (my auld aunt wore one), but not the other. The mystery of course is, why was a bustle called a "Grecian bend"? Was it because it was supposed to beautiful? Because it was a form of the callipigous? (a body shaped like a Grecian urn) Or....?

Also, how do you get an asterisk into the DT?

Yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: The Garden Where the Praties Grow
From: Dale Rose
Date: 08 Dec 98 - 12:03 PM

The Levy site has 18 mentions (some duplicates) of Grecian Bend, including several with illustrations. LOC has only one~~apparently by 1870, where their online collection begins, the fad was fading. Surprisingly, Duke has none.

I found this on the net: THE DICTIONARY OF PHRASE AND FABLE BY E. COBHAM BREWER, FROM THE NEW AND ENLARGED EDITION OF 1894~~An affectation in walking assumed by English ladies in 1875.The silliness spread to America and other countries which affect passing oddities of fashion.

Either the English Grecian Bend was something different or Mr. Brewer did not know what he was talking about.

Subject: RE: The Garden Where the Praties Grow
From: Peter T.
Date: 08 Dec 98 - 02:43 PM

This is a bit too early for "Grecian attitudes" as in Iolanthe (Poses in the Grecian style). Or is it?

Yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: The Garden Where the Praties Grow
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 10 Dec 98 - 01:23 AM

G'day Dale Rose,

I have a copy of Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable, among my four dedicated shelves of dictionaries, at home and find it always amusing, but less often accurate.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: The Garden Where the Praties Grow
From: JedMarum
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:03 PM

Great info in this thread about a song I've loved for years. My father sang it when I was a kid, and I've begun singing it as well at my shows, but without the chorus for two reasons; 1) my Dad sang it sans chorus, but whistled a little 'turn around' melody between verses 2) I never knew what the hell a chignon was, nor how to even pronounce it!

How do you pronounce the word? Just like it is spelled?? SHIG-NON? Anyone know??

Subject: RE: The Garden Where the Praties Grow
From: Fiolar
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:23 PM

Chignon is pronounced "shee-non." Also according to The Cassell Dictionary of Slang the Grecian Bend was a particular stooping style of walking in which the body bends forward from the hips, fashionable from about 1872 to 1880. Also meant a bustle which probably caused that type of walk.

Subject: RE: The Garden Where the Praties Grow
From: Snuffy
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 07:00 PM

I've usually heard it pronounced "sheeny-on"

Subject: RE: The Garden Where the Praties Grow
From: MartinRyan
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 08:07 PM

I'm with Fiolar on this one - she-non it is.

Regards

Subject: RE: The Garden Where the Praties Grow
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 09:35 PM

The French (and English) pronounciation is pretty much as Snuffy gives it, though I expect that it varies elsewhere.

Subject: RE: The Garden Where the Praties Grow
From: DougR
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 12:14 AM

I have a great album of Irish songs including this one, recorded by Christopher Lynch, Tenor, with Leonard Rose, on Cello, John Wummer, Flute, and Laura Newell on Harp. This song is included in the album, "The Minstrel Boy."

Unfortunately, I cannot play it anymore because it is 78RPM. I bought the album in about 1947. Rose later became a very successful cellist and appeared in recital and with symphony orchestras all over the world. I came to know him quite well in the 1960's.

I apologize for the thread creep, but does anyone remember Christopher Lynch and know what kind of career he had?

DougR

Subject: RE: The Garden Where the Praties Grow
From: JedMarum
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 09:16 AM

The "sheeny-on" pronounciation gives you the added syllable needed to make the phrase work. Thanks y'all!

Doug - never heard of him. You may be able to find someone in Phoenix who can convert that 78RPM album to disc for you. It may even have value as a collector's item. Take a look on Ebay for the record, or one like it.

Subject: RE: The Garden Where the Praties Grow
From: Snuffy
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 06:40 PM

What I meant to say was - it's usually pronounced "sheen-yon" in ordinary speech, but in the song its usually sung as "sheeny-on".

Wassail! V

Subject: RE: The Garden Where the Praties Grow
From: DougR
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 06:43 PM

Thanks for that suggestion, Jed. It has sentimental value to me so I wouldn't be interested in selling it, but I'd love to have the 78s transferred to CD. I hadn't considered that.

Doug

Subject: RE: The Garden Where the Praties Grow
From: JedMarum
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 07:29 PM

Ebay is great for that sort of research. I had a nice old Gibson Heritage that I decided to sell, and i had a freind who was interested. I wanted to sell it to my friend at a good price, but needed to be sure what a good price was ... so I looked for the value of similar vintage guitars, in simialr condition. I discovered that my particular model had a premium value as a collector's item (because collectors value those two+ years when this model reached its peak quality) - and then I decided it was worth 500 to 700 as a good used guitar, and I saw prices for that particluar model from 700 to 1400. I was already happy with 500, since it was more then I would have sold it for withput doing any research, so my friend got a good price, at about market price (not counting the collector's premium) and I got more then I needed to make the deal! Ebay helped me, but never was involved with the transaction!

Subject: RE: The Garden Where the Praties Grow
From: JedMarum
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 11:12 PM

You won't believe this Doug ... but here is a similar record, if not the same. It doesn't specify 78 RPMs, if I read it correctly may indicate the record spins at 45 RPMs ... but it looks like a collection from this artist!

Subject: RE: The Garden Where the Praties Grow
From: DougR
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 11:51 PM

That's amazing Jed! I hadn't thought about that album in ages. The one on EBay must be a bit different but contains some of the same songs as on the album I have it seems.

It probably came out in the early 50's, I would think. Isn't that when 45RPM became popular? Of course you are such a youngster, you might not know the answer to that!

:>)

DougR

Subject: RE: The Garden Where the Praties Grow
From: JedMarum
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 11:43 AM

I've been singing this song a capella pretty regularly since this discussion began, andI have to say that audiences everywhere LOVE the song. I wasn't too surprised that the Irish Music crowd enjoy it - but I sang it last week for a Bluegrass crowd, and they loved it too!

Great stuff. I do give a bit of an explanation of the terms (praties, chignon and grecian bend) and always tell the audience that I learned form my father, and he from his.

Subject: RE: The Garden Where the Praties Grow
From: mack/misophist
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 12:09 PM

An Oxford don with the wonderful name of Lancelot Hogben wrote a series of books on the English language some years ago. In one of them he said that the "Grecian Bend" was a pose favored by models back in the days of the Gibson Girl. The model stood arms akimbo, hands well to the back, and leaned back and to one side. Sand hogs adopted the phrase to describe nitrogen narcosis (the bends) because the pain usually hits in the kidneys first, causing the sufferer to assume that pose. As in "Willie's got the Grecian Bends".

Subject: RE: The Garden Where the Praties Grow
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 12:29 PM

From the land of the Praties I give you the great Count John McCormack who made this blody awful song famous. McCormack`s CD`S can be had easily enough, and believe me that song ain`t top of the pops in Ireland. Spud Murphy.

Subject: RE: The Garden Where the Praties Grow
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 12:47 PM

Pronounced "SHEEN-yon" Guaranteed.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Garden Where the Praties Grow
From:
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 04:33 PM

I am trying to contact Doug but can't. You were enquiring about Christopher Lynch. A great character - with loads of stories. I know as my late wife, Marie, was his daughter. His own wife Dympna, died in 1980 and he came back to Ireland. He had given up singing after the Voice of Firestone programme ceased. The Rock and Roll era I think put a damper on the demand for the concert type singing. Christopher died in England in 1995.

I would dearly love to get a copy of that record - the Minstral Boy.Is this possible? The people of Rathkeale, Co. Limerick (where CL was born and reared) hold an annual Christopher Lynch concert and are looking for old recordings in order to make a commemorative CD. With regard to the Praties - I am inclined to agree with Spud my fellow countryman - it is a lousy song!

Subject: Lyr Add: THE GRECIAN BEND
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 05:09 PM

Back to the original question:

This page has a sketch and words for a song called "The Grecian Bend."

It says it is from Eastburn, New York: 1868

This was apparently sheet music:

THE GRECIAN BEND

The Ladies wanting something new, As women are so prone to do,
Wear lofty heels upon the the shoe to give them a Grecian Bend.
With foot so short and heel so high they can't stand plumb if they would try,
And so they think to catch the eye by means of the Grecian Bend.

CHORUS: Oh, see them promenade Broadway, from early morn to end of day:
To hear what dashing gents will say about the Grecian Bend.

T'is fun to see a lass so tall , lean forward 'till you'd think she'd fall:
Or pitch against a tree or wall, Because of her Grecian Bend.
E'enbashful firls are forward now, So forward that the people vow;
They've been all day behind a plow, To give them their Grecian Bend.
Chorus

Fat women now will not be seen, For all are bent upon the lean;
A novel way to walk the Queen, This beautiful Grecian Bend.
When girls go out upon the street, Their heads arrive before their feet;
The figure cut is sure a treat, But this is the Grecian Bend.
CHORUS

The doctors think the walk is fine, For all the ladies who incline;
Must have a curvature of spine, To give them a Grecian Bend.
Old maids declare it just the plan, They try this semicircle sham,
Pitch into horse and dray, and man. And spoil their Grecian Bend.
CHORUS

What next we'll have we do not know, For novelty is all the go;
And when designs begin to flow, Where will the follies end?
Perhaps you'll see them by the scores, Down on their knees upon your floors;
To try to go it on all fours,And cut the Grecian Bend.
CHORUS

The Grecian Bend for Westend Belles, is thought by love the thing
The Roman Fall for 'bout town Swells, Is what my boys I sing;
Heads up, chests out la militaire, How graceful the effect,
How stylish yet how debonnaire, It is the walk correct

CHORUS

I don't see any clues here about the tune.
This information comes from a page about Popular Music of mid-nineteenth-century America. It comes from Assumption College in Worcester, MA. Maybe the library has the sheet music for the tune.

SRS

Subject: Lyr Add: IN THE GARDEN WHERE THE IRISH POTATOES GR
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 12:57 PM

This is obviously related to THE GARDEN WHERE THE PRATIES GROW. It's an Americanized and extended version. (The word "praties" is unknown here. If we wanted a short, colloquial word, we'd call them "taters.")

This is my transcription from a sound file at the Honking Duck web site. As you can see, there are several gaps; I'd appreciate some help filling them in.

IN THE GARDEN WHERE THE IRISH POTATOES GROW
Dr Smith's Champion Hoss Hair Pullers, 1928.
Click to play.

Was you ever in love, boys? Did you ever feel that pain?
I'd rather be in jail, boys, than to be in love again.
I used to court a fair maid, I'd have you all to know.
I met her in the garden where the Irish potatoes grow.

I asked her if she's tired of living a single life
And if she was, I'd make her my dear wife.
She said she'd see her parents; tomorrow she'd let me know,
To meet her in the garden where the Irish potatoes grow.

Now we are married, and children we have three:
Two cross-eyed girls just like her and the boy the image of me.
Now we will raise them up as though it happened so.
I never shall forget the place where the Irish potatoes grow.

... creature, but ...
So often ...
Now she's gone and left me. I told her not to go
Away up in Nevada, on the frozen(?) ice and snow.

Now she's gone and left me, enjoy(?) all her life.
If she can get a husband, I can get a wife.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Garden Where the Praties Grow
From: GUEST,Bengt Erik Eriksson
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 03:39 AM

You´ve certainly done a great job with the lyrics!. I have tried myself and got stuck in about the same places as you have. When comparing with the Irish , older, version, I have some suggestions:
"Now we will raise them up, as though it happened so." is certainly whatis sung by Dr. Smith, but the older version seems more understandable:
Alt: We'll train them up in decency, the way they ought to go

In the next verse, I believe, the older version(and probably what Dr. Smith did not quite remember) mixed with the new is possible to use :
She was just the sort of creature that nature did intend
To walk throughout the world, my boys, without the Grecian Bend/
alt. To walk the streets of troublesome life without the Grecian Bend

"frozen ice and snow", could possibly be "growing ice and snow"

"enjoy(?) all her life"
Possibly: seems all of her life

Well, it´s a beautiful tune, fully understandable or not.
Best regards,
Bengt Erik Eriksson

Subject: Lyr Add: DO YOUR BEST FOR ONE ANOTHER (Patterson)
From: Big Tim
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 04:56 AM

Johnny Patterson (1840-89) the composer of 'Praties' (potatoes, 'pirties' in the north), wrote about two hundred songs, the vast majority of which have been lost. Among those that survive are,

A Good Roaring Fire, Barney Hare, Bridget Donahue, Castles in the Air, Cincinnati in the State of Ohio, The Dingle Puck Goat, Do Your Best for One Another, Garden Where the Praties Grow, Goodbye Johnny Dear, The Hat My Father Wore, My Love She's Gone Away, Off to Philadelphia, Ould Turf Fire, The Roving Irish Boy, Shake Hands With Your Uncle Dan, The Stone Outside Dan Murphy's Door, Typical Irishman.

Below is the song that cost him his life, beaten to death on stage by an intolerant crowd.


DO YOUR BEST FOR ONE ANOTHER

In this world, I have gained my knowledge,
And for it, I had to pay,
Although I never went to college,
Yet I heard the poets say.

Life is but a mighty river,
Rolling on from day to day,
Men are vessels, launched upon it,
Sometimes wrecked, and castaway.

So, do your best for one another,
Making life a pleasant dream,
Help your poor and weary brother,
Pulling hard against the stream.

Many a bright poor-hearted fellow,
Many a noble-minded man,
Finds himself in waters shallow,
Go assist him, if you can.

Some succeed at every turning,
Fortune favours every squall,
Others have not friend or filling,
Pulling hard against them all.

So, do your best for one another,
Making life a pleasant dream,
Help your poor and weary brother,
Pulling hard against the stream.

If the wind blows in your favour,
And you weather every squall,
Think of those who, luckless, labour,
Never know fair winds at all.

Working hard, is contented,
Struggling on through oceans wide,
Without a friend, with not a penny,
Pulling hard against the tide.

Don't give way to foolish sorrow,
But keep all men in good cheer,
Brighter days will come tomorrow,
If we just try, and persevere.

The longest night will have a morning,
Though the sky be overcast,
The roughest road will have a turning,
And the tide will change at last.

So do your best for one another,
Making life a pleasant dream,
Help your poor and weary brother,
Pulling hard against the stream.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Garden Where the Praties Grow
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 08:13 AM

Hello Jim and Bengt:

That stanza-and-a-half is a puzzle all right. What I made of it was just as fragmentary, but if this is any help, here it is:

(?The kindest kind of creature ...?? )
To walk the streets ... (??)
Now she's gone and left me, I told her not to go,
Away up in the country in the cold and ice and snow.

Now she's gone and left me, (to seek a better life?)
If she can get a husband, I can get a wife.

Dr. Smith sure did mumble. Maybe it was his professional manner.

Bob

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Garden Where the Praties Grow
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 09:32 AM

THE GARDEN WHERE THE PRATIES GROW can be found in Wehman Bros.' Pocket-Size Irish Song Book, No. 1 (New York: Wehman Bros., 1909), page 15. It's mostly the same as the version in the DT but it has one additional verse:

2. She was singing an ould Irish song, called, "Gra gal machree,"
Oh! says I, what a wife she'd make for an Irish boy like me!
I was on important business, but I did not like to go
And leave the girl in the garden where the praties grow.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Garden Where the Praties Grow
From: GUEST,GUEST
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 06:54 PM

This song was actually written in Liverpool, where Johnny fell in love and married his inspiration for the song, a fellow circus performer.

Johnny Collins

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Garden Where the Praties Grow
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 11:39 PM

A brief but informative Wikipedia entry gives details of Johnny Patterson's marriage to a circus bareback rider called Selena Hickey; also of the Irish socio-political implications of the above-noted song, which occasioned the riot leading to his death.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Garden Where the Praties Grow
From: Mr Happy
Date: 22 Aug 10 - 09:22 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Patterson

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Garden Where the Praties Grow
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 06:19 PM

I stumbled across this, thought I'd add it to the thread.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grecian_bend

The "Grecian Bend" image on the item is pretty appalling.

SRS

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Garden Where the Praties Grow
From: GUEST,Paddy
Date: 15 Mar 17 - 11:47 PM

In the song Kathleen is not a girl who bends to the fashions of the day. She was a free spirit! Her hair flowed freely and she walked freely displaying her natural beauty without the aid of any glutinous enhancements! Which today are applied in a much less removable way! Baby got back!!