BS: Last rites given.... (pope)

Subject: BS: Last rites given....
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 12:18 AM

I read that Pope John Paul II has been given his last rites. I am not a Catholic nor a christian but I feel somewhat saddened that a man who had such charisma is about to pass on. For him it will mean a release and probably a thankful one.

I was based in Scotland when he made his one and only visit there at the beginning of his papacy and I was struck by his strength of character and vitality.

Though I could not agree on many things he said in his life I still thought the man had that 'something' which set him apart.

The same is true of the Dalai Lama, a man who seems to exude an aura of power but also one of compassion.

Any other people you can think of who have that capability?

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: GUEST,hmmmmm
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 12:34 AM

.. should be an interesting dilema
if the Pope slips into a vegative coma
for the next 10 or 20 years...

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 12:42 AM

Interesting question. I agree further- sometimes I have met someone in my life who, for whatever reason (whether because of personality or politics or being related to someone they knew), did not like me or feel comfortable with me while I came away feeling that the person was an extraordinary human being (Not BECAUSE s/he didn't like me!). It made me aware that sometimes being liked is not important; it is more important that one sees the other person clearly.

I feel the same way about the pope. I too am not Catholic but I have met some priests whom I love and feel in the presence of something godly when I'm with them. And I know that when he dies there will be many bereft people in the world. (Although I have never understood: When so many religions teach that the afterlife is much better/grander/wiser than life here on earth, why do they regret anyone's death????)

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: mg
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 12:47 AM

well, don't know what the official word is on purgatory, but Catholics of my age believe(d) in purgatory..so a great immediate hereafter does not await you..but rather a mini-hell, with a fairly long duration. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 01:10 AM

We saw this pope a couple of times when he was visiting New York City in 1979. Stopped traffic all over Manhattan, and when he went down to the Battery to address a crowd in the park they literally closed the entire New York Harbor. I worked out at Ellis Island, and we could go up on the roof with binoculars and look over at the Battery to see his white figure and the crowds. And every time we went on the roof, a helicopter appeared from seemingly nowhere to keep an eye on us.

It will be a momentous event when it happens. Juxtaposed as it probably will be, between Terri Schiavo and Prince Rainier, it could be a really odd or unusual spring as far as world opinion and politics and the discussions that take place.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 02:15 AM

Guest Hmmmm - it is unlikely that will occur as he remains fairly lucid and has refused a feeding tube.

Although I disagree with some of his teachings and certain life choices he has chosen to deny Catholics, I have a great deal of respect for him. He was selected to be Pontiff in a time where the early teachings of the Catholic church have very little relevance to the majority of the world, but he chose to uphold those teachings and stayed faithful to his beliefs. He travelled the world in the early years of his appointment, more than any other Pope had, He has encouraged a greater communication and understanding between Catholic and Protestant, he has remained firm in his faith and I have no doubt that St Peter is making a space for his representative when he finally comes home.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 06:29 AM

It's not that I want to dis the Pope as a man, but as part of "Religion"..................well.............

So Christ and Moses show up in New York City and take a ride around town on their way to St. Patrick's Cathedral. They see the South Bronx and cruise through Harlem and see people sleeping in boxes all over town. Arriving at the cathedral they are overwhelmed with the pageantry of it all as high mass is underway in their honor. The Pope has flown in especially for the occasion and Christ remarks to Moses that perhaps one of the rings the Pope is wearing might be worth enough to feed and clothe several families for years. So that's it then isn't it? What would Christ and Moses think?   If you profess to be a man of god and you own more than one suit of clothes while somebody in the rest of the world has none.....you're a shyster man....a con artist with captive audience."
An excerpt from the works of stand-up Philosopher Leonard A. Schneider......aka, Lenny Bruce (one version of a part of the bit he called "Religions, Inc.")

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 06:37 AM

Agree with the sentiments, spaw, yet -

...he was a newborn baby once, and his parents loved him, I expect.
And he was a toddler, probably fell off his bike and hurt himself.
He may even have fallen in love as a youngster.
As a young priest he very likely was full of ideals and a wish to change the world.
As an adult he did his best. I might not agree with all his decisions (I don't, as a matter of fact), but hey...
...he was a newborn baby once.

So this non-Catholic feels sad. For the baby.

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 06:45 AM

He tried his best. Stood for some good ideas, some not quite so good. But on average better than a lot of the "leaders" elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 07:20 AM

Man, that's beautiful El-G! Very nicely done.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 07:25 AM

He may be a great person, but I cannot mourn the loss of someone who imposes such teachings as he does on the *faithful.* (I know it's his job and he may have done it admirably.) In my opinion, there is no comparison between him and the Dalai Lama.

Thanks, Spaw, for the excellent analogy.

It will be interesting with the three very prominent cases along about the same time.

LtS, as of yesterday, he was on a feeding tube: "Pope John Paul II is being fed through a nasal tube in an effort to boost his caloric intake, according to a statement from the Vatican.

The 84-year-old pope needed better nutrition to regain his strength, Vatican spokesman Joaquin Navarro-Valls said."

I know public figures are fair game for news stories, but, again, I feel the details should be private and there must be more news in the world than five-minute updates on this on every news channel there is. Let the poor man have some dignity and peace without the constant angst-ridden reports from some pundit standing outside, parroting whatever press release has been handed them.

My apologies for any offence.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: kendall
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 07:35 AM

Why do we mourn the death of an old Christian? If you believe in paradise, what's to mourn?

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 07:44 AM

I understand what you mean, ebbie, about disagreeing with someone but admiring them.

some people just radiate charisma - yes, i strongly disagree with some of the pope's attitudes, but i know he tried very hard to be a pure representation of what he thought his faith was about. and he brought a lot of comfort and inspiration to a lot of people.

I have a friend who is very strong minded, sometimes totally off the wall. he is a very powerful person, very smart, does a lot of good. when i say powerful i mean his presence, his personality. he is quite powerless in his personal situation. he is someone i admire greatly, for that humour and warmth.

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 07:59 AM

Kendall,

I think as a rule we mourn our own loss of something; in this case a leader, a good man, or just a human. Also, even if we believe that there is a better life after this one for the departed, we sometimes mourn the loss of opportunity for them in this life (death of a child or young person). So I don't see faith and mourning as mutually exclusive.

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 08:01 AM

..and for the lack in our own lives, because we no longer have that person with us.

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 08:27 AM

It's not "Extreme Unction" or "Last Rites" anymore. It's called something like the "Anointing of the Sick" and it's intended to impart spiritual strength to accept whatever comes and, hopefully, to help the person get well.

As for the "life choices he has chosen to deny Catholics" -- well, many, many, many Catholics around the world have chosen to deny his denials. The official positions of the Catholic Church and the actual practice of Catholics can be miles apart. As an example, consider the gap between the teaching of the Vatican on birth control and the actual practice.
(Yes, I'm quite aware that Humani Vitae was written two Popes back -- I'm just using this as an example.)

As a friend of mine, an Emeritus Professor at a Catholic college, once said, "We try not to let our Church interfer with our Religion."

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 08:30 AM

I wonder if he made a living will?....
Any bets on Ian Paisley being the next Pope?


(Well it IS April 1st!)

RtS

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 08:44 AM

I don't respect the pope, any more than I respect Tony Blair. Both are Catholic political leaders. People "respect" the position of authority because that is what they are taught to do, so they "respect" the people that fill those positions by default, really. It has to do with the reptilean brain. Once it's programmed to think a certain way, that's it.

Hence, the pope is "respected" by millions of people who's lives he never touches. Go figure.

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 08:45 AM

reptilian brain?

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 08:45 AM

If only the pope's death would result in an end to the royal papacy.

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 08:54 AM

If only posting as a nameless GUEST would result in something better than cheap comments from cowards

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: GUEST,Crystal
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 10:19 AM

I'm not a christian but I have a lot of respect for the pope and I hope that if he is dying he is permitted to go with dignity.

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: GUEST,Father Dougle
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 10:52 AM

i felt much sadder


when i was surprised to hear of the sudden death

of Father Ted

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 11:12 AM

Yah--I was really bummed when I heard about Father Ted too.

Apparently, one can still appoint bishops and archbishops, even though one has received last rites.

What a miracle.

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 11:23 AM

I agree with Garrison Keillor, who a couple of months back on A Prairie Home Companion said "the death of an old man is not a tragedy."

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: GUEST,Devout Whovian
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 11:30 AM

anyway...


so whats all the fuss about..??



dont Popes regenerate into a new one..


.. a bit like Dr Who ?????



..isn't it just as exciting to see

who'll be the next one..


.Richard E. Grant ..??

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: GUEST,harpgirl
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 12:11 PM

Godspeed to a beloved world spiritual leader. He was anti-war and that's good enough for me!

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 01:03 PM

"Let the poor man have some dignity"

I can't imagine anyone showing much more dignity than John Paul has demonstrated in these last few appearances.

There seems to be a presumption sometimes that dignity is tied up with not being dependent on other people, and not being weak and vulnerable. I think that's about 180 degrees off the truth.

Obviously there's nothing sad about what's happening. Except in the older sense where "sad" means "serious", and is appropriate for an occasion when we are drawn to think about serious things, like our own mortality, and the time left to us, and what we are going to do with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 01:58 PM

No, I don't agree with that interpretation either. If one lives a full life, with health and wealth like yer man in the Vatican had, the Christian view is one should REJOICE at the death, because it is a return to You Know Whoville.

What is it with people who are obsessed with seriousness in these cases? He is an old man. He lived better than most royalty on the planet lives. Why shouldn't we rejoice that he is being released from his earthly burdens and suffering?

There are some truly morbid folks both terrified of and obsessed with death.

Which I think is pretty whacked, unless it is happening to you and yours, IMO.

I consider all this "oh how sad" stuff to be a phony act.

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 02:01 PM

in the last half hour reuters announced the Pope's death - and the Vatican has denied it.

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: gnu
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 02:03 PM

My mother told me yesterday that JP would pass at approximately 3PM AST (our local time) today. I just heard he has passed but no official announcement has been made. Spooky.

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: gnu
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 02:39 PM

Vatican has denied reports of death (CNN).

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 02:54 PM

Ya' know I always thought that Benny Hill would have made a good pope. He looked real good in the get-up. Come to think of it, so does Dom DeLuise and he's still alive!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: gnu
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 03:13 PM

Celebration and mourning:

For all who pass, we celebrate their life. We also rejoice in their final peace. However, we are human. We cannot help but feel sad at OUR loss, at what WE will miss because of this departure.

As for JP, most Catholics know at least a little bit about him. He has been a great leader of our religion. Whether you agree with the religion or not, it's difficult to disagree with his leadership and his devotion to bring the religion forward. If he has not done so fast enough for you, you don't understand the religion.

PS - The ring thing... if anyone is hungry, anyone, they can get food, clothing and shelter at the Catholic Church... no questions asked, no strings attached.

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: gnu
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 03:14 PM

Benny the first!! And last!! Hehehe.

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 03:33 PM

Actually, I disagree with your assessment of the pope's effectiveness, gnu.

I have a sister in law, who is a nun, and heads up the religion department at a major Catholic university. She didn't like the pope either. In fact, she and many American Catholic progressives like her, think this pope was TERRIBLE for Catholicism. He was extremely conservative, and did all he could to turn back the tide of Vatican II. As to being an anti-war pope, puhleez! He sure wasn't anti-war when the war was on the poor in Latin America, that's for sure!

He didn't even bat an eye when Archbishop Romero was assassinated.

So, don't go lecturing to the world that we "must" admit anything, just to agree with YOUR opinion of the pope.

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: gnu
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 03:53 PM

I just talked to Mum. She said she knows he has passed but the announcement will not be made until all Cardinals have been informed personally and they begin to make their way to the Vatican. Rather matter-of-factly. I asked her what she was having for supper... fish of course, but no wine, as she's been having dizzy spells. Hmmmm.

Guest at 03:33 PM... don't put words in my mouth. By doing so, you only undermine your own post. Oh yeah... poof, you're a Fairy.

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: PoppaGator
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 04:01 PM

A big part of the drama and concern over the death of a Pope is anticipation of the next Pope. For the first time in centuries, it's not a likely bet that it'll be an Italian Vatican insider. The surprise election of JP put an end to that monopoly.

It probably will be another conservative type, though. Progressive Catholicism as practiced in the US and Western Europe may well continue to be more and more marginalized, valued as a major source of income but ignored/suppressed when it comes to theology, scholarship, etc.

The Church is thriving in those parts of the world where it is most conservative, notably in the southern hemisphere and "third world." An African Pope is still probaly unlikley, but don't be surprised to see a Latin American get elected.

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: gnu
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 04:13 PM

My vote, if I had one, would not be for a Card. I would vote for one of The Flying Fathers. Man, them guys can play hockey! That's what we need - a Pope that can skate and body check with the best of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: Amergin
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 04:18 PM

As pope he has known and assisted in the cover up of the pederast clergy. He is responsible for the pain and suffering the rapes have cost, if for no other reason than he is the Pope, the leader of his religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 04:23 PM

As a non-Christian, I admire the Pope and feel he was a true person of good.

Those that ridicule him and what he stands for, please remember, when it's your turn to go, good chance no one will give much of a damn and do any praying for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 04:24 PM

Ah PoppaGator, this pope is Polish, not Italian.

gnu, does your mum work at the Vatican, seen you seem to be suggesting she has a direct line to what's going on there?

The passing of the torch is always rife with political intrigue.

Like how did pope, this very day, manage to appoint 17 bishops and one archbishop?

Kinda makes ya go hmmmmmmm....

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 04:31 PM

People damn well better not be praying for me when I go. I'll haunt them if they do.

Keep your damn religious "faith" and persuasions away from me.

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: gnu
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 04:33 PM

Now your posts are putting words in the mouths of others. As for my mum, re-read my posts and don't try to put more words in my mouth. In case you are not the previous Fairy... poof, you're a Fairy.

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: GUEST,oirish
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 04:34 PM

betting odds ??


Pope Bob Geldof ???


Pope Bono ????


Pope Graham Norton

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: gnu
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 05:03 PM

Bono. Now, there's a Pope.

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: open mike
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 05:51 PM

how is the decision for the next pope made?
election? appointed? sworn in by previous pope on his death bed/\?
is the choice democratic? theocratic? declard by God? what?
or is there a child somewhere who has been being groomed for the job?

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 05:54 PM

Elected by the cardinals.

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: gnu
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 05:54 PM

Election.

Subject: RE: BS: Last rites given....
From: gnu
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 05:57 PM

I wonder... if Bono is elected Pope, what colour will the smoke be?