Songs that should have been folk songs

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 01:21 PM

Lotof Jethro Tull, Songs from Thw Wood, Heavy Horses, Jack In The Green and so on. I have always felt that His music has been highly underated over the years.

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 01:24 PM

Working Man by Rita MacNiel, a great song, it has already reached folk status in many parts of Atlantic Canada.

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: Fidjit
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 03:27 PM

Mary Ellen Carter, Stan Rogers

Chas

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: Scoville
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 03:32 PM

RAGG MOPP! I haven't heard that in years! I was forced to learn it almost at gun-point by my fourth-grade music teacher!

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: M.Ted
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 04:17 PM

One point that some people seem blissfully unaware of, is that the sound that we think of as appropriate for "folk" music is really of a very recent innovation--whether the sound, and the music played in the fashion, will persist, is a fair question though.

My thought is that the present day music that lasts will be reinterpreted in new musical styles that have yet to evolve, and, likely, many of us will not like--

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: mattkeen
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 07:50 AM

Ghost Town - The Specials
Londons Calling - The Clash
White Riot - The Clash
(Virtually everything else by the Clash)
Ian Dury (lots of)

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 08:09 AM

Dancing Queen by Abba (not necessarily an upbeat disco-pop song when handled with care)

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 08:35 AM

I remember getting GBH of the ear'ole from the great god McColl for mistakenly announcing 'Jowl and listen, lads' (Tommy Armstrong ? Jack Elliott ?) as traditional.

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 12:28 PM

My witty deskmate hit the enter key again. Sorry.

I recall so many spats between "traditionalists" and "inclusionists" over the years that I have, more or less, tuned it out. We have come, historically, to a point far beyond where songs were used as a primary form of news dispersion between widely scattered settlements. The "folk tradition" includes many (perhaps, mostly) composed songs, albeit not in the sense we might think of today. If someone writes, or composes and performs a song that commemorates or celebrates an event or person or circumstance, and that song resonates with enough other "folks," I would regard it as a legitimate entry.

We may not have any "John Henrys" or the like in contemporary life, but we have many heroes and villains to write and sing about. Who is to say, if such things are widely accepted, that they cannot become viewed as music of the "folk?"

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: Cool Beans
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 01:14 PM

From Broadway:
"More I Can Not Wish You" (Frank Loesser, "Guys and Dolls")
"Edelweiss" (Rodgers & Hammerstein, "The Sound of Music") No,it's not a traditional Austrian anthem.
"Tomorrow Belongs To Me" (Kander & Ebb, "Cabaret")

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: GUEST, Mikefule
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 02:00 PM

To come from outside of "folk" and make it "into folk" the song needs to be memorable, eminently singable, held in general affection, and probably tell a bit of a story. If you're in the pub and start to sing it and some of the locals join in, it may be on its way to becoming a folk song.

The obvious one is "(Why why why) Delilah."

Ones that sometimes work:

"Johnny, remember me"
"Puff the Magic Dragon"
"Two Little Boys (had two little toys)"

One that might almost work: Lynyrd Skynyrd's "Gimme Three Steps"http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Gimme-Three-Steps-lyrics-Lynyrd-Skynyrd/08FCF927B631FB68482569EB0011464E

Another that nearly works: Ace of Spades (Motörhead) which fits nicely to a slight variant of the tune of the Lincolnshire Poacher.

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: maeve
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 03:38 PM

Most of Archie Fisher's contributions, I would say, are already over the bow and into the ship's hold of folkdom, swimming alongside music from Gordon Bok, Chris Smither, Cindy Kallet, Dave Mallett, Bob MacQuillen, Dave Goulder, and others mentioned earlier.

maeve

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: MystMoonstruck
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 07:14 PM

I cannot believe that all of my work has been wiped out! I was about ready to post this when something happened and~ZAP! My post disappeared!

What I was listing were songs of the Fifties and Sixties, as well as more recent that are modern-day ballads. That is, they're written by contemporaries. Let's try this again. Off the top of my head comes this list (again~if I can remember all of them again):
Big Iron
Running Gun
Ride Cowboy Ride
Five Brothers
Don't Take Your Gun
Ghost Train
Jimmy Martinez
They're Hanging Me Tonight
Saddle Tramp
Ballad of the Alamo
Three Bells
Big Bad John and Cajun Queen (They're mainly spoken, so I'm not sure they count.)
Sink the Bismarck
Battle of New Orleans
The Master's Touch
Faleena
El Paso
El Paso City
The Hanging Tree
Run Softly, Blue River
Moody River
Take a Message to Mary
The Devil Went Down to Georgia
The Ballad of Paladin
Rawhide
Yellow Bird
Scarlet Ribbons (for Her Hair)
Coward of the County
Valley of the Moon
Sergeant Buffalo (I'm still looking for my 45 to supply the lyrics in the unresolved thread.)
Johnny Yuma~The Rebel
North to Alaska
The Ballad of the Alamo
The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance
Ode to Billy Joe
Fancy
The Ballad of Cat Ballou
My Rifle, My Pony and Me
Rio Bravo
Sugarfoot

Face it: Cowboy movies of the Fifties & Sixties are loaded with ballads: 3:10 to Yuma (1957), Rancho Notorious, Gunfight at the OK Corral (1957), and The Man from Laramie. I found three sites that address these songs. Here's a link to one site:
http://www.rootsandrhythm.com/roots/COUNTRY/country_cowboy.htm
I occasionally watch The Western Channel, and I noticed all of these songs in the storytelling tradition of ballads. Most are average, but some are rather interesting, with not-all-that-bad melodies.

This is about half of what I had. *SIGH* If I'd been working in Text Document, perhaps it would have saved it.

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: MystMoonstruck
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 07:21 PM

I do with I could edit. I made an error in my list.

The Master's Touch should be The Master's Call. Oops!

Marty Robbins, Johnny Cash, Johnny Horton and others did wrote and/or sang many ballads.

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 06:50 AM

The Stones: Ruby Tuesday
Clifford T Ward: Gaye, Home Thoughts From Abroad
anything by Bert Jansch

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 04:54 PM

Shir Hashayara (Caravan Song), by Arik Einstein and Yehuda Poliker. It's about immigrants, and the tune is rembetiko-esque.
Beryozy, Ty Nesi Menya Reka, and most anything else by Lyubeh.

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 04:54 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ognpAGWu8A0&feature=related

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 05:24 PM

Oh, I take it back, it actualy is a rembetiko song. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGqGwZHYy5E

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: GUEST,Rich
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 05:51 PM

George, not quite what you asked for maybe, but check out Declan O'Rourke's 'Marrying The Sea - Till Death Us Do Part' for a modern song written in a traditional, timeless style. I don't think he is generally considered to be a folk artist, but given the style of this track, I think he must have roots in folk music.

There is a video on YouTube that uses it as a soundtrack if you want to hear it, sadly the video is about a young man who died in the sea, posted by his best friend. The video is called '15 april the following day'.

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 07:00 PM

Munich air disaster.

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: cptsnapper
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 11:54 PM

Hello In There by John Prine

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: GUEST,Acorn4
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 04:40 AM

Re the reference to Slade earlier, I've done "How does it Feel" unaccompanied and just about got away with it, also "Run Run Away" and "My Oh My" are great singalongs- quite a lot of their later stuff did have a "folksy" edge so the contribution of Messrs Lea and Holder to the tradition is not quite so absurd as first suggestion might imply.

What about "Someday I'll Be Saturday Night" by Bon Jovi -seems to fit the criteria!

But is it folk, Miranda?

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: mattkeen
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 06:18 AM

I would say these ARE folk songs:

White Riot - Clash
London Calling - Clash
Ghost Town - Specials
Plus many others from the post punk era in the UK inc. many by Ian Dury
Waterloo Sunset - Kinks
Penny Lane - Beatles

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: kendall
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 08:38 AM

I've been known to sing "Those were the days" at folk festivals.

John McCutcheon's "Old Brown's Head Light" qualifies in my opinion.

It seems to me that the decision of what is or is not folk, is a matter of opinion. To me, any song that has a Dm in it and is in 3/4 time is a candidate.

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: GUEST,Acorn4
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 03:17 PM

There are some strange ones - although it ticks most of the boxes, Elvis's "In the Ghetto" doesn't feel like a folk song - Buddy Holly seems to be accepted in folk circles, but not Elvis, although I think Martin Carthy did do a vwersion of Heartbreak Hotel.

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 04:21 PM

Those Were the Days is a Russian folk song. "Dorogoy Dlinoyu".

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: GUEST,Life's A Riot Between The Wars
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 05:56 PM

Days - The Kinks

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: paula t
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 01:03 PM

Bruce Springstein's "work Song". We sing it in four part harmony. Great words. Short and to the point.

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: kendall
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 01:43 PM

The Wayward Wind by Gogi Grant
Almost anything by Gordon Bok

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: SouthernCelt
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 01:23 PM

I've always thought "39" by Queen on their "Night at the Opera" album would qualify as a folk sounding song although it's SciFi in context.

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: GUEST,Suffolk Miracle
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 10:24 AM

"I remember getting GBH of the ear'ole from the great god McColl for mistakenly announcing 'Jowl and listen, lads' (Tommy Armstrong ? Jack Elliott ?) as traditional."

Before this escapes from the thread and turns into an urban myth, I believe Jowl Jowl IS traditional. Certainly not by Armstrong or Pop Elliot. Collected from a miner called Natrass in the 50s or early 60s I think.

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 02:44 PM

My Brother Makes The Noises For The Talkies - The Bonzo Dog Doo Dah Band

You Gotta Go Ow! - Spike Milligan and The Massed Alberts

Charlotte (my pink half of the drainpipe)

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 02:55 PM

Another short list of folk "wanna be's" or "coulda been's" might include:
Jim Croce's "Workin' at the Car Wash Blues"

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 03:02 PM

"Guest" stole one of mine! I like the Croce song too. Also, "Pony Man" by Lightfoot, "Pancho & Lefty," "Nobody Knows You When You're Down and Out," Shel Silverstein's "Beans Taste Fine," Marty Robbins' "El Paso" and "Big Iron," among others; perhaps even the late Frankie Laine's "Mule Train and "Rawhide" (we'll omit "Blazing Saddles this time) and, last but least, "Tie Me Kangaroo Down" by Rolf Harris. Oh, yes - and "Ghost Riders in the Sky," by anyone but Vaughn Monroe, AKA "Old Mushmouth," as named by my mom many years ago.

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: GUEST,irishenglish
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 03:26 PM

Couldn't bother to look at the entire thread, so apologies if it's been mentioned, but as the Oysterband said when THEY covered New Order's Love Vigilantes,it is a folk song, and I tend to agree!

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: GUEST,Mike B.
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 01:33 AM

Darcy Farrow (Steve Gillette)
The Highwayman (Phil Ochs)
Ramblin' Boy (Tom Paxton)

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: Stringsinger
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 11:17 AM

Hey Kytrad, please don't leave out "Black Waters". It's a brilliant song. You are one of America's foremost folk poet/songwriters in my opinion.

"Aragon Mill"-Si Kahn

"Paradise'-John Prine

Any Woody's song.

Steve Earle's songs particularly the one about "Dead Man Walking"

"Cape Ann"-Gordon Bok and the Hutchinson Family (different versions)

"Venezuela" and "I Wonder As I Wander" (written by John Jacob Niles)

"We Shall Overcome" (but I think of it as being a folk song already)

"Mary Ellen Carter", "Barrett's Privateers" and almost any Stan Rogers song.

Tommy Sand's songs (a great Irish songwriter) "There Were Roses", "Music of Healing'

"No Man's Land", "The Band Played Waltzing Mathilda", "Gentle Annie"-Eric Bogle (a master)

Actually, Merle Travis wrote "16 Tons" and "Dark As A Dungeon" (should be folksongs)

Elizabeth Cotton wrote "Freight Train".

Charles "Badger" Clark wrote "Spanish Is A Loving Tongue".

These are some that are very much in a folksong style. That in itself might qualify them
to be folk songs although scholars of folklore argue about that.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 11:34 AM

Isnt Gentle Annie by Stephen Fosters, as is Hard Times, both of which would make my folk song list.As would a number of songs by the McGarrigle sisters.

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 11:50 AM

and another thought.....

Some of the material by The Band surely must qualify.

Charlotte (across the great divide)

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: SouthernCelt
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 11:32 AM

There are a number of songs written and performed by Slaid Cleaves (or written by others in his circle of musical friends) that I find to be folk lyric type songs although some sound modern due to electrified instrumentation. For example:
"Breakfast in Hell"
"Below"
"Horses Quick as Dreams"
"Lydia"

The same could be said of a number of Ian Tyson's "cowboy" songs over the years. For example:
"M.C. Horses"
"Big Horns"
"Barney" (that song just tears me up!)
"Claude Dallas" (Lyrics such as "In the land the Spanish once had called the Northern Mystery...)
"La Primera"

Love 'em all, try to sing some of 'em when I can.

SC

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: AllanW
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 11:45 AM

"Some of the material by The Band surely must qualify"

Charlotte, you're talking my language here. In my naivity, I think of The Band's entire output as the history of American folk music. It's a world I enjoy. I sing The Weight and Cripple Creek and a bunch of others believing them to be folk songs. I'm happy with that.

Allan (up on cripple creek without a paddle)

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 03:43 PM

"The Band's entire output as the history of American folk music"


The irony, of course, is that The Band were three quarters Canadian

Indeed, Robbie Robertson's Christmas Must Be Tonight has been recorded by both The Albion Band and The Albion Christmas Band

Charlotte (deck the piano stool)

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: Stringsinger
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 04:01 PM

this dangerously encroaches on that dreaded topic, "what is a folk song?"

As far as the "Band" is concerned, their output in my opinion is not the history of American folk music but a popularization of a kind of rock music.

I think Stephen Foster is a lot closer to that history than the "Band". But Foster aside,
there is so much to the history of American folk music that is not being presented even here.

American folk music may be one of the most misunderstood forms of expression
in the world today.

On Mudcat, there are people with varying tastes in music but few of them really
know much about the history of folk music. There are some here who do.
Others are content to express their opinions and these are based a lot by what they hear on the radio and the alternative media. I think American folk music by in large is being ignored by those who claim to know what it is.

On Mudcat, opinions are plenty but many are short on study or fact.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 04:06 PM

"being ignored by those who claim to know what it is."

I don't claim to know any such thing, nor do I pretend to.

Charlotte (facts are like playing the piano, everything must be at your finger tips)

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: AllanW
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 07:13 PM

Oh dear, do I have to get my old folk song manuals out and learn about 19th century farmers? Can't I just continue to think of The Band as folkies Frank, am I really harming anyone?

I take it you've broke the news to the kids about Santa not being real?

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: Celtaddict
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 08:14 PM

I'm glad someone introduced Townes Van Zandt ('Pancho and Lefty') as I think some others of his qualify; 'Tecumseh Valley' particularly.
'1952 Vincent Black Lightning' has the obviously modern motorcycle motif but is classic ballad form, boy meets girl, love at first sight, he is a bad lot, dies young.
Some of Larry Kaplan's songs tell stories very well, too, though not all are as singable as 'Old Zeb' which has taken on a life of its own. 'Hard Way to Peacham' certainly comes to mind (young family lost in snowstorm in unsympathetic world).
I agree that a singable chorus helps a lot in the process of a song becoming 'folk'.

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: GUEST,The Mole catcher's Apprentice
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 11:10 AM

Actually if you open your mind and listen to The Band, you'll find that their music is a combination of Rock, Soul, Country, AND Folk.

Charlotte (an open ear on the past)

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 11:50 AM

When I hear a song such as "City of New Orleans," and can relate to the story within - the loss of the "name" trains of my childhood like the Santa Fe "Chiefs," etc., I think of it as a folk song. Gordon Lightfoot's "Edmund Fitzgerald" evokes the pain of loss and the memory of bold sailors doomed every bit as much as sailing songs of years past. One major difference is in the instrumentation and playing skill of performers. We think of this music as too "polished" or the chord structure too "modern" somehow, especially when amplified and skillfully mixed. Go past that veneer and look at the soul of the song.

Subject: The working man
From: GUEST,Rita Mac Niel
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 05:17 PM

Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 06:25 PM

If any of you bastards turn my songs into folksongs I have made a special provision in my will that the mafia will come and whack you.

Even unto the the tenth generation.

So be warned.

They might drown you in the bath.(cos I'm a psychopath)
http://www.bigalwhittle.co.uk/id22.html