Folklore: English wrestling

Subject: Folklore: English wrestling
From: CET
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 07:43 PM

I think this fits under folklore. I was reading George MacDonald Fraser's memoir, Quartered Safe Out Here, about his service with the Border Regiment in Burma in WWII. He writes about one of the men in his section who was a great wrestler and who was a prospect to win the championship at Grasmere. He also writes about the prowess of Cumberland men at wrestling. That got me thinking about other English traditional wrestling styles that I've read about, e.g. in Lorna Doone. Have these traditional English fighting sports survived? I certainly haven't read anything about them being practiced in recent years.

Edmund

Subject: RE: Folklore: English wrestling
From: Chris Green
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 08:07 PM

I don't know, I'm afraid. But what a book! I'm re-reading it myself for the umpteenth time!

Subject: RE: Folklore: English wrestling
From: GUEST,Mingulay at work
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 03:28 AM

To the best of my scant knowledge wrestling is still alive in the Lake District and Highland Games and may be elsewhere. It's certainly not like WWF!

Subject: RE: Folklore: English wrestling
From: sian, west wales
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 04:24 AM

I saw a demonstration of celtic wrestling by some Bretons at the Pan Celtic Festival, Killarney, back in the '80s.   Lots of well-toned, well-oiled young muscular flesh ... I could reconsider my aversion to sport if this made it to primetime media.

siân

Subject: RE: Folklore: English wrestling
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 04:38 AM

Certainly did go on at the annual fair at Broughton in Cumbria about 20 years ago - I saw it. As far as I know it still happens.

DtG

Subject: RE: Folklore: English wrestling
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 04:55 AM

What a great book. Do look for Steel Bonnets too. Anyway wrestling still survives in Cumbria and they are considered among the best in the world, maybe only the Turks are better. Google Cumbrian Wrestling.

Subject: RE: Folklore: English wrestling
From: GMT
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 05:25 AM

Yes Allen a very good read.

CET I believe Cornish wrestling is still alive and well and Turkish is still practiced here (England). The Indian and Sikh community have their own form of wrestling as well.

I still hanker for Mick McManus on a Saturday grapple fans.

Cheers
Gary

Subject: RE: Folklore: English wrestling
From: Cats
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 02:33 PM

Yes Cornish wrrestling is still very much alive and is being taught across the county to a new generation.

Subject: RE: Folklore: English wrestling
From: greg stephens
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 02:52 PM

Lake District wrestling certainly alive and well.
Lorna Doone wrestling: when I was a kid on Exmoor in the 50's, wrestling was much practised at school, but I can't speak about nowadays.

Subject: RE: Folklore: English wrestling
From: Raedwulf
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 04:52 PM

Wrestling as a competitive sport, as opposed to wrestling as a US entertainment/sporting soap opera, is very much alive & kicking (grappling?) in the UK.

There are a number of different styles, some of which (primarily the two olympic ones) are officially recognised by most of the major sporting bodies. Historical forms (such as the Viking Glima) are also being resurrected/practised/maintained.

Wrestling is not about to die out. It's far too much *fun*, trust me!

Subject: RE: Folklore: English wrestling
From: CET
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 07:37 PM

Well, this is encouraging! Thanks for all the replies. Celtic wrestling, Sian? Was it ever practiced in Wales?

CET

Subject: RE: Folklore: English wrestling
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 08:33 PM

I'd guess that "celtic wrestling" is a modern, fanciful "reconstruction" (perhaps with woad and ancient pre-christian bodhrans); but perhaps I am over-cynical.

Cornish and Devon wrestling styles aren't all that different from the little I recall. Baring-Gould had a song, or set of verses, about a Cornish wrestling match in which one contestant breaks the other's spine (apparently through use of the "flying horse" throw); probably that sort of move is unacceptable nowadays.

Subject: RE: Folklore: English wrestling
From: Alexander
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 08:57 PM

Donald Rawe states in his book, A Prospect of Cornwall the following: "Cornish (or more properly Celtic) wrestling is a sport of great antiquity, now practiced principally by the Cornish and Bretons, though a version of it has also survived in Cumbia, the land of the North Britons. The style uses only holds above the waist; the wrestlers wear short trunks and canvas jackets which can be gripped by their opponents. Previously this sport prevailed also in Devon (with variations)." Donald Rawe then describes certain historical wrestlers which I would be happy to post if anybody is interested, and states: "Today Cornish wrestling tournaments are a regular feature of Cornish life during the summer months, and since 1928 the Cornish Wrestling Association and its Breton counterpart have arranged numerous visits of Cornish teams to Brittany to wrestle against the Bretons, and to bring Breton teams to Cornwall for similar contests."

Subject: RE: Folklore: English wrestling
From: Ian
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 07:30 AM

Many years ago I picked up a song about a wrestling match poss 19th c

It was between a Staffordshire Champion (Trubshaw) and The Notts Champ' Richard ? (All In Green)- (his costume)
The fight took place in Repton (town)
It mentions that the govening rules were ... Bunny/Bonny I am not sure which or if those words are correct. If anyone can help in that.

Trubshaw won and the song was collected by an ex militry man Captain or Col, who with his good lady traveled around Staffordshire collecting what we would now consider Magazine filler as a county file or diary.

I have mislaid my original source notes and will require to visit the library houing his reports.

As far as I know I am the only person singing this song.

Subject: RE: Folklore: English wrestling
From: Snuffy
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 09:04 AM

Bunny is a village in Notts, so it could have been that rather than Bonny

Subject: RE: Folklore: English wrestling
From: Ian
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 10:49 AM

I would not have thought that the rules were relating to a village as this was an inter county match.
The rules would be on the same standard as Queensbury rules in boxing.

Subject: RE: Folklore: English wrestling
From: Snuffy
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 08:47 AM

Standardisation of rules only came in the mid-Victorian era with steam trains and electric telegraph. Before that each area had its own local rules and when people from different areas met, they would have to negotiate which rules to play by.

Sometimes one version attained (inter-)national acceptance - Rugby, Badminton.

Subject: RE: Folklore: English wrestling
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 08:51 AM

I think the main difference betwee, Cornish and Devon wrasslin is in Devon you wear shoes and kick.

Subject: RE: Folklore: English wrestling
From: GUEST,t't master
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 09:52 AM

Wrestling ?? pah - ECKY THUMP !!!

Subject: RE: Folklore: English wrestling
From: Ian
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 04:28 AM

Thanks to you Snuffy. I looked up the village of Bunny and found that the the Baronet Sir Thomas Parkyns taught wresting at a school he founded there. He also publised a book "The Inn Play or Cornish hug wrestler" about 1727. He died in 1741.

Subject: RE: Folklore: English wrestling
From: greg stephens
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 05:38 AM

"Cornish(or more properly Celtic) wrestling"

The ceaseless invention of new forms of Ye Olde Celtic culture never ceases to impress me. Wrestling there has been for untold generations in Cornwall. But calling it Celtic wrestling("more properly" indeed) I would tend to date as extremely recent.

Subject: RE: Folklore: English wrestling
From: Snuffy
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 08:59 AM

So presumably the Trubshaw-Richards fight was played according to the rules Sir Thomas had devised. I suppose it's just a historical accident that they were called after the village not the man, or else it would have been Parkyns Rules.

Subject: RE: Folklore: English wrestling
From: GUEST,Toberymory
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 12:55 PM

It seems there were a number of regional variations in the late 1600s and early 1700s. The Northumbrian philosopher and diarist Edmund Wrackyns described attending a wrestling contest near Hexham in his book 'Tayles of a Northumbrian Traveller' published in 1722.

He talked of a contest "so great that it extended over 24 rounds, each ten minutes long, before the noble Lord Darrenmuir succumbed to George Percy".

Does anyone know if George was one of the famous Percy family still associated with Alnwick Castle to this day?

Has any Northumbrian folksinger written about Northumbrian wrestling in times past?

Subject: RE: Folklore: English wrestling
From: GUEST,Trubshaw descendant
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 09:48 AM

I just happened upon this discussion while searching for some genealogical information on Trubshaws.

One of my Victorian forebears, Susanna Trubshaw, did some research and published a book of family records. In it she talks about RICHARD TRUBSHAW, a Staffordshire stonemason and quarryowner (he's my 6x great-grandfather, incidentally) who lived 1689-1785, and of his reputation as a wrestler. Her own grandmother knew the first and last verses of the song. However Susanna's brother asked around when on a visit to Repton, and returned home with six verses about the match, which Susanna published in her book in 1876.

I can send these to you if you wish, or post them on this site if that would be of general interest. Basically it relates that Richard Trubshaw fought "Richard Allen Green" at Repton. Green's backer is mentioned as Sir Thomas Parkyns, who became anxious that he would lose his money! (So the match must have been before Parkyn's death.)

My version of the song has no reference to "Bunny" rules, so there must be verses I don't know of. However from your later research it looks as if that ties in well with Sir Thomas Parkyns.

A book I consulted on Victorian architects says:
"Like other members of his family, Trubshaw was a man of fine physique and great strength. His fame as a wrestler is celebrated in a contemporary ballad which relates how he defeated Richard Allen, or Green, of Hucknall, who had 'reign'd Champion of Nottinghamshire, and the Neighbouring Counties for twenty years at least', until he was thrown by Trubshaw in a wrestling-match at Repton."

I hope this is useful...