Tech: Legality of Chords & Lyrics on website?

Subject: Tech: Legality of Chords & Lyrics on website?
From: chico
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 06:27 PM

I have a collection of lyrics with chords i've made and want to make a website to share them. What is the legality of this? I know can post old songs out of copyright, but what about contemporary songs like beatles?

Subject: RE: Tech: Legality of Chords & Lyrics on website?
From: Amos
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 06:47 PM

Chico:

There are a number of sites where people collect and post these, and they usually have a disclaimer that they are for personal and educational use only. But, IANAL as they say.

A

Subject: RE: Tech: Legality of Chords & Lyrics on website?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 07:09 PM

If you have genuinely made your own arrangement - which is different - then you own the copyright for THAT ARRANGEMENT - of course the words and the tune of the original are still the property of the copyright owner.

Subject: RE: Tech: Legality of Chords & Lyrics on website?
From: open mike
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 09:20 PM

what's IANAL?

Subject: RE: Tech: Legality of Chords & Lyrics on website?
From: Brían
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 10:00 PM

I am not a lawyer. Mudcat does not offer free legal advice, although some of us may work as lawyers.

Brían

Subject: RE: Tech: Legality of Chords & Lyrics on website?
From: chico
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 10:15 PM

? Ok, you're not a lawyer. . . you speak for the ENTIRE mudcat community?

You just said you aren't a lawyer, and then say "some of us may work as lawyers". Obviously it isn't you. Since when do you speak for the legal profession who post here?

I guess i'll have to live without 'brian's' ignorant non-advice!Oh no!

Subject: RE: Tech: Legality of Chords & Lyrics on website?
From: chico
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 10:18 PM

OOps. . .

I misread the above post. . . please ignore it

Subject: RE: Tech: Legality of Chords & Lyrics on website?
From: Amos
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 12:01 AM

I'm the one who said IANAL, and I ain't. Brien was correct in saying that free legal advice is not readily available on the Mudcat and he was not speaking for the community but for himself as an experienced visitor here. Anyway, all we can offer are our observations, so I hope those will serve.

A

Subject: RE: Tech: Legality of Chords & Lyrics on website?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 02:49 AM

I'm the one who said IANAL.............

USE ENGLISH ! If you mean "I am not a lawyer" then say so!!!

Even French, Spanish or Latin would be preferable to this juvenile webspeak


Doug C

Subject: RE: Tech: Legality of Chords & Lyrics on website?
From: Snuffy
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 08:52 AM

DSTSS, Doug

Subject: RE: Tech: Legality of Chords & Lyrics on website?
From: Amos
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 09:43 AM

Don't you yell at me, Doug Chadwick. I am sorry you don't like the acronyms which make up common shorthand for web chatters, but they have become a common parlance, well-established, and you have to recognize that fact. They are convenient shorthand when you are typing as though you were talking, IMHO. :D

A

Subject: RE: Tech: Legality of Chords & Lyrics on website?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 09:44 AM

Good God! 10 posts and only the Foolestroupe has said anything on topic, rational and sensible? Must be some sort of record...

Subject: RE: Tech: Legality of Chords & Lyrics on website?
From: jeffp
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 09:53 AM

Check out Amos's first reply. On topic and sensible, with disclaimer.

The Harry Fox Agency has caused trouble here at Mudcat over posted lyrics. Be careful with other peoples' copyrights.

Subject: RE: Tech: Legality of Chords & Lyrics on website?
From: JedMarum
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 10:10 AM

I post lyrics for my own songs only on my website.

I do not post lyrics or charts for songs to which I do not own copyrights. I believe you will be in breach of rights to copy laws if you post them - technically speaking you are publishing them when you make them available on your website.

Now - I know a lot of people do - and I know there are battles (with Harry Fox and probably others) over this. I suspect you'd find sympathy from many of the songwriters for posting them and maybe even get their permission, simply by asking ...

BUT I believe you'll find that you must pay a license fee and/or have the author's permission to post lyrics and/or charts for other people's music.

Subject: RE: Tech: Legality of Chords & Lyrics on website?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 10:40 AM

But my post was the first non-ANAL one... :-)

Subject: RE: Tech: Legality of Chords & Lyrics on website?
From: jeffp
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 10:44 AM

Gotta grant you that one. *G*

Subject: RE: Tech: Legality of Chords & Lyrics on website?
From: Amos
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 10:48 AM

Robin:

I didn't think your post was non-ANAL.

A

Subject: RE: Tech: Legality of Chords & Lyrics on website?
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 11:13 AM

Chico,

Jed is right on. If you place lyrics or tunes on a web site, you need the permission of their creator or must pay a licensing fee. Mudcat goes through major efforts to ensure that what is in the Digital Tradition is either "public domain" or is there by permission of the creator.

The Harry Fox Agency did threaten legal repercussions against the Mudcat until the issue was clarified (there is a long thread on this in the archives). It also shut down the On-Line Guitar Archive (OLGA) for a period. They no longer publish the lyrics of songs, just guitar tab. The entity which was going to do lyrics appears to have faded away.

So, Chico, if the Harry Fox Agency calls, be prepared to make changes.

Roger in Baltimore

Subject: RE: Tech: Legality of Chords & Lyrics on website?
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 02:02 PM

There are legal websites out there that can explain what the current legal views on this stuff are, which progress reports on the various battles that are going on--Like this one Electronic Frontier Foundation . Some uses are legal, some aren't and some are in litigation--I don't think that Harry Fox and RIAA are much concerned with posters of lyrics and chords anymore, because they are kept busy by the whole filesharing debacle--realistically, it isn't likely that anyone will pay much attention to what one person posts on a website anymore, because there are so many major players involved in the big deal--

Still, it is good to look into what the legalities are so that you know where you stand--you never know what you'll get caught up in down the road--

Subject: RE: Tech: Legality of Chords & Lyrics on website?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 08:12 PM

Amos - I'm not ANAL-retentive though....

and yes, some people DO say that I speak a lot of s.....

Subject: RE: Tech: Legality of Chords & Lyrics on website?
From: Jimmy Twitcher
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 09:25 PM

Well, IIAL, albiet one that doesn't practice in IP, so take this with a grain of salt if you must.

Anyway, there is a great deal of misunderstanding about the legality of posting chords & lyrics. In a nutshell: chord progressions are (probably) fine, but lyrics are most definately NOT. I say "probably" because I am informed that there is a US Supreme Court or USDCA case out there that has ruled that chord progressions are not copyrightable. I have not seen this case, and it seems to me that there ought to be just as much creativity in an interesting and unique chord progression as a unique melody, but that's just me.

As for copywritten lyrics, that's absolute: you can't do it, and anybody who tells you that you can is either lying outright or fooling himself. It makes no difference whatsoever whether you're doing it not-for-profit or not. You will occasionally get people arguing this, but its really a non-starter -- the copyright owner is the only one who can make copies or approve of copies being made for free. All others must pay royalties. There are some limited exceptions under the "Fair Use" doctrine, but I would have to spend way more time on that than anyone here is likely to want to read.

The above is specific to US law; UKians, sorry, but I don't know your interpretation of the Berne Convention well enough to comment.

Subject: RE: Tech: Legality of Chords & Lyrics on website?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 09:13 AM

On the other hand, until someone stops you, you can do whatever you want to do.

Subject: RE: Tech: Legality of Chords & Lyrics on website?
From: JedMarum
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 09:25 AM

I had been encouraged to think that because I was paying a mechanical license fee to record the song that I could reprint the lyrics among the lilner notes - I suspect that is resonable. I choce not to print any lyrics in the liner notes , so it's a moot issue for me.