BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP

Subject: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 06:42 AM

Fascinating front-page article in the Wall St. Journal, (that leftist rag) 8 April 2005, on misdoings of the long-time #2 man at that pillar of corporate propriety and stalwart Bush supporter, Walmart.

Thomas M. Couglin, # 2 at Walmart for 5 years, "abruptly resigned on March 25 from his board seat after Wal-Mart found what it said was a pattern of expense-account abuses and the use of false invoices to obtain reimbursements". Mr. Couglin's "total compensation" was more than $6 million last year. Walmart itself has found "questionable transactions totalling between $100,00 and $500,000."

What's particularly intriguing is how Mr. Coughlin covered up and plans to defend himself.

He would ask for expense payments to be paid without any receipts, saying it was to be used for a "union project".

"Mr. Couglin told several Wal-Mart employees that the money was actually being used for anti-union activities, including paying union staffers to tell him of pro-union workers in stores, according to people familiar with the matter." The false invoices, Mr. Couglin told these people, were "simply a roundabout way of compensating him for out-of-pocket expenses in his anti-union campaign".

"If Mr. Couglin did pay union staffers for information, it would represent a criminal offense under the federal Taft-Hartley Act..."

Mr. Couglin's defense to charges of misappropriation, according to the Journal, will include the "union project". He will allege he paid former, not current, union people--thus avoiding a charge of criminal activity. However, according to Fred Feinstein, former general counsel of the National Labor Relations Board, these payments still "could violate the National Labor Relations Act and carry civil penalties".

Even if the "union project" never existed, using it as a defense shows crystal-clear the corporate culture at Walmart--union busting is A-OK, even straying over the border into criminal activity once in a while. After all, none of this came out til very recently, so the spokesmen for Walmart had complete and convenient deniability.

In the grand tradition of shooting the messenger, the Walmart whistle-blower has now been fired by Walmart.

Where there's smoke...

OK, defenders of Walmart--Doug R., Larry K et al.--- the ball's in your court.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 06:54 AM

"Coughlin" is the correct spelling.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 07:07 AM

Well, Ron, you may have a long wait seein' as the Bushites are a tad touchy these days... You are more than likely just going to get Martinized with some reference to bodily functions or parts... That seems to be the "usual" reponse these days as we are now being barraged daily with Bush and Bush supporter wrong doings..

BTW, didn't a court recently order Walmart to compensate it employees millions of dollars for underfunding their health insurance? I don't remember the datails but thought, upon hearing or reading it, "Hmmmm, no wonder the Bushites are so intent on getting rid of liberal judges?"...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 08:45 AM

... or honest ones ...

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: dianavan
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 12:37 PM

There's also a story circulating that WalMart was busted for transporting illegal alien to clean their stores. Any truth to it?

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: DougR
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 05:14 PM

Does anyone care if there is any truth to it? Keep spereading the news! :>)

Ron: I don't know what you expect me (who has no objection to Wal-Mart). There are rotten apples in every barrel.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: DougR
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 05:15 PM

That does not necessarily mean there is anything wrong with the barrel, however.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 05:23 PM

Yeah, I mean really. I went there today and bought some stuff and the place was doing a fine business. No one was bitching and everyone was paying less and saving money.

So, your thread has zero impact and you completely waste your time.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Bearheart
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 06:26 PM

Actually there are lots of folks who care about this issue. Some of them are just too busy taking action on other web sites to see what's up here. Thanks to the mudcatters who do care.

I certainly know lots of really poor folks who shop at Wal-Mart because they don't feel they have a choice.

My guess is that those aren't the folks who are rallying in support of Wal-Mart here-- Too bad, because if you have the bucks to support an alternative, you'd REALLY be supporting capitalism (ie, healthy competition in the market place). As it is you will find yourselves, down the road, without alternatives, and paying top dollar, because that's what Wal-Mart aims to do-- drive everyone else out so that it has sole propriatorship in the marketplace! And all because you are too cheap to look at the real cost of what you're doing...

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: dianavan
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 03:56 AM

"too cheap to look at the real cost of what you're doing when you shop at WalMart," that says it all.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 07:04 AM

Martin and Doug, your hypocrisy is sometimes too much to take. You are the frst to chastise the old hippies, and talk about traditional values. How exactly does breaking the law of the land over and over square with these values of yours? This company gets busted over and over for illegal activity and you act like they are fine, just a few bac apples.

Shallow is the only description for your attitude. As long as they dress it up nice, that is fine with you.

Disgusting.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 11:03 AM

No, Mick you are disgusting sticking your big butt in everyone else's business.

Please buzz off.

Like I've said before, where I spend my money legally is none of your concern, so please shit-up.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: DougR
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 12:21 PM

Mick: spoken like a true union man. I am not. As I have posted time after time, my son has been an employee of Wal-Mart for almost fifteen years. He feels that he is treated fairly, is paid a good salary, and has good health benefits. I'm confident that he is not the only employee of Wal-Mart that is satisfied with is job, and likes his employer. He is not a union man either.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 12:55 PM

Screw the Unions at this point. You have driven the cost of labor off-shore.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 01:13 PM

How high up the Walmart corporate echelon is your son, DougR? Is he management?

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 10:14 PM

Martin, it is very interesting that you only have comments about body parts. Why the interest?

Doug, I know your son has a good job, and that you are happy about that. Fair enough. But you didn't answer the contention. It wasn't about your son. It was about this Corporation continually breaking the law of the land, which you and Martin are continually defending, and it doesn't seem to bother you. To ask again, how many times will they have to be found guilty of flagrant abuse of the environmental, labor, import, and immigration laws before you speak against them?

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 10:20 PM

How many bad apples will it take before you need to get a different barrel?


Walmart is also under pressure in Maryland, of all places. A law dubbed the "Wal-Mart Bill" is progressing in the Maryland General Assembly. This would require any company which has over 10,000 workers in Maryland to spend at least 8% of its payroll on health care benefits for its employees or put the difference into the state Medicaid fund.

In Maryland now, Walmart is the only firm that fits the bill.


Now I wonder why such a law would be necesssary?

Unless just possibly there is something to the charge that Walmart systematically underpays its lower-paid workers and provides such abysmal health care that it has to be forced to do what it should already be doing.

It doesn't have to be this way. In an earlier thread I detailed the contrast on health insurance and pay between Costco and Walmart.

If the shoe were on the other foot, "Martin", you might feel differently.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 09:53 AM

"Unless just possibly there is something to the charge that Walmart systematically underpays its lower-paid workers and provides such abysmal health care that it has to be forced to do what it should already be doing."

   Since when is it big business' responsibility to provide any type of health coverage to it's employees? I thought that this is why businesses offered benefits to their employees so that they could get employees that are more loyal and would work harder at doing a good job.

   The reason that they're called "benefits" is because they are normally not expected. It's something extra.

    What the state of Maryland is doing is nothing short of extortion and if it passes then it will do nothing but cause people to lose jobs. Let's hope that Md.'s gov. will have the sense enough to veto that piece of crap legislation.

    For the many clueless ones out there, just think a little harder about how something can affect something else and I guarantee you will change your way of thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 10:07 AM

One more of the conservatives have spoken, one more of these spokesmen for "values". And once more they refuse to address the fact that this company, over and over, has demonstrated an absolute disregard for the laws of this land. Over and over they have violated the rights of women, immigrants, working folks, local zoning laws (read that their attempt to circumvent zoning statutes by doing a referendum) ....... they have a culture of disregard for the laws they don't believe in. The hypocrisy being shown by you folks is staggering.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 10:28 AM

they have a culture of disregard for the laws they don't believe in


sounds like Wal-Mart resembles and emulates Congress, many state governments and virtually every big business I've ever heard of.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 10:32 AM

Come on Mick..........

Even you're smart enough to figure this one out......I'm not trying to make the argument that Wal-Mart hasn't done some questionable things in the past. What I have stated is that why does everyone assume that your employer, whoever that may be, is responsible for YOUR health insurance? Evidently, I hear that the state of Maryland does and I have also heard that MD's gov. will be vetoing the bill if it reaches his desk. Hooray for him.


Don't let your liberal beliefs cloud your mind from logical thinking. You'll soon find smoke billowing from your ears.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Dani
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 10:49 AM

Thanks for the reminder. It's so easy to stop at WalMart and pick up stuff cheap, but my local still-family-owned hardware store, pharmacy, jeweler and garden store are struggling to hang on. It really does make a difference to them where I buy my dustmop, or thermostat timer, or flat of pansies.

Name calling doesn't help anyone, y'all. Just think about where you spend your money, make the effort to do it mindfully, and try to witness without knocking people on the head. Doesn't work in religion OR politics OR anywhere else.

Dani

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 11:05 AM

Another instance of the GOP loving Wal-Mart AND charging it to the taxpayers:

The whole article may be read HERE

Saturday, March 26, 2005
By The Associated Press

BENTONVILLE, Ark. -- The U.S. House has approved a federal highway bill that includes $37 million for widening and extending the Bentonville street that provides the main access to the headquarters of Wal-Mart Stores Inc.

The company says it asked U.S. Rep. John Boozman, R-Ark., to help get federal money for the proposed project. U.S. Rep. Don Young, R-Alaska, added an amendment that put the work into the $284 billion bill, which is now before the Senate.

The Senate is supposed to vote on this, this month.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 12:10 PM

kat....

Have you ever been to Bentonville? If so then I'm sure that you would realize that the street running down beside the Wal-Mart corporate offices and large warehousing facility is constantly clogged with cars and semi's coming in and out at all hours of the day and night. Hwy 540 into Bentonville is a good road and Hwy 71 out of Bentonville is a good road...but the business hwy running through the middle of Bentonville is packed with other businesses and car dealerships that beg all sorts of other non-WM traffic. It's something that the population of NW Arkansas has been wanting for a long time and it should have been done a long time ago.

Don't be so narrow minded to assume that just because it's Wal-Mart that that's the reason it's happening. It happens in cities that are growing every year. Not just Bentonville, Arkansas.



Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 02:14 PM

Hubby, narrow-mindedness has nothing to do with it. If you'd read the whole article, you'd see it was THE COMPANY that asked a congressman to go after the funds specifically for THE COMPANY'S benefit.

Wal-Mart spokesman Jay Allen said the company wants Eighth Street improved so the 10,000 workers at company headquarters will have an easier time getting to their jobs.

If there are other business along that route which would benefit from the project, fine. That's not the way it sounds and I don't like taxpayer money being used to accomodate a giant corporation which has such a reputation for bullying out so many worthwhile local businesses.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 02:24 PM

HMMM.....

Imagine that. A company that goes to bat for their workers in order for them to have an easier route for getting to work. Sounds like the workers have some pretty good people to work for doesn't it? Not only that but they're also asking for something that would genuinely better the community. According to others in this thread, it sounds just the opposite. Which is it going to be? Are they good or are they bad?


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 03:12 PM

Hubby, concerning your comments to Big Mick, no, he's not.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 03:33 PM

I'm with MG at this pount, when he sais Screw the unions... With the exception of 2 groups... teachers, and nurses... Two groups that still get the shaft, even WITh their unions...

The rest of them can go spit... Worthless packs of pimps and whores...

No... wait... that's too insulting to honest whores....

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 08:03 PM

So, Gobson and HammondOrgan (hereinafter "Organ"), you actually want to see American workers forced to accept the same wages as offshore slaves? That really says it all about your consciences, doesn't it?

If you don't support the union until you need it, then, when you need it, it will be too late.

No-one (repeat, no-one) believes the Adam Smith doctrine any more. It only works for those prepared to scramble over the corpses of others to achieve success - and who believe in their ability to keep doing it.

As Neil Kinnock said (and was proved right) "Do not be poor. Do not be ordinary."

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 10:25 PM

Why would I give a rats ass about "American Workers"?

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: DougR
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 01:32 AM

Carol C: my son is not in upper management at Wal-Mart.

Mick: the current controversy, according to what I read in the newspapers, is an internal problem to be resolved by the board of directors of Wal-Mart. One of the officers is accused of spending company money for unauthorized payments to individuals who could assist management in preventing unionization of Wal-Mart stores. To my knowledge, at this point, there are only accusations. No charges have been filed against the corporate officer. As to other Wal-Mart transgressions, I am not familiar with them. Has anyone been imprisoned as a result of the sins you alledge Wal-Mart has committed?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST,Fairminded Sally
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 05:09 PM

Some stats:

Did some checking: Average wage at Walmart is $10/hour. They're one of the few retailers that offers health benefits to part-time employees. Premiums start at under $40 a month (individual)and less than $155/mo. for family. And no lifetime maximum after the first year!! Other benefits are excellent as well. One day their replacement as the no. 1 retailer will endure the same ugly comments. I grew up in a small town where my dad was able to afford the mom and pop prices of the 3 drug stores in town. In retrospect I shutter at what many townspeople couldn't afford. I've thought about smaller merchants hurt by the large discounters, and that's sad too. But today we're in a new culture and overall, I'm happy that more people have lower prices. Not everyone is caught up in obscene consumerism. Many are good people trying to get by and store like Home Depot and Walmart enable that. Let's know the facts before we keep this up.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 05:18 PM

Guest, Fairmind Sally, good post.

The trouble is that there are just so many socialist pin-heads here who hate anything and everything corporate even though many of them get their own paychecks and benefits from such.

It's just their own self-esteem problem they have.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 05:18 PM

Bridge, get a life. Or at least a client you don't milk.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST,Fairminded Sally
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 05:41 PM

In 2004 W-M gave back more than $170 million in charitable contributions, the largest corporate cash giving Foundatioin in the USA. I don't take that lightly. Many are touched by this, especially sick children. I feel terrible for company employees due to this latest incident--from the bottom to the top of the ladder--because those who love to hate them will enjoy running with it for a while. A sad situation for the inidivudal who resigned due to the alleged incident(s). An entire career! If founded, and I hope there's an error here, it's so preposterous that people still don't get that integrity is more important than a good education. Thank goodness Americans historically have proven that they forget and forgive pretty quickly. We all have our flaws. This too shall pass and something good comes from most adversity. Those who pray, please say a prayer for the company's employees who work so hard as well as the man who has resigned due to the alleged incident.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 11:07 PM

"Sally"--

Average wage at Walmart is $10/hr.--source please.

Comparisons of Walmart and Costco (from Wall St Journal 28 Mar 2004)

Employees covered by health insurance:
          Costco: 82%
          Walmart 48%

Insurance enrollment waiting periods
          Costco; fulltime 3 months, part-time 6 months
          Walmart:fulltime 6 months, part-time 2 years.

    That's right, you have to work part-time 2 years for Walmart at their wonderful wages to qualify for health insurance (my comment, not in article)

Portion of health care premium paid by company:
          Costco: 92%
          Walmart 67%

Walmart doesn't give its wage rates since they vary by location--curious to know where your info came from (again, my comment)

Costco pays starting employees at least $10/ hr. That's starting employees, not average, and since the figure is from 3-2004, it's probably up now.

Questions for you:

1) Why are any Walmart employees on welfare?
2) Do you think it's totally politics, with no reason beyond that, that the Maryland legislature is now trying to force Walmart to spend 8% of its payroll on health benefits or put the difference into the state Medicaid fund?

In case you're not aware, Medicaid is to help the indigent.

"We all have our flaws". Absolutely. However, I venture to say that most of us would be content with $6 million per year, without pilfering company accounts.

Or is the whole thing a trumped-up charge inexplicably swallowed by the Wall St Journal, which broke the story?

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST,Sally
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 01:02 AM

Ron,
I trust you've provided accurate facts. Costco seems like an excellent place to work doesn't it. I don't "hear" a very gently guy as you explain Medicaid to me. Me thinks you're very touchy. I hope you aren't one of those who blames Walmart exclusively for outsourcing. If W S Journal's article reflects correct info in this comparison with Costco, I invite you to compare the part-timer insurance thing with other companies. By the way, on the average, Walmart associates are very happy people and somehow the day-to-day feeling of those people is important, whether or not I, myself, would enjoy working in that environment. Have you ever read Warren Buffet's comments about Walmart. Somehow I think he's a pretty reliable gauge.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: DougR
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 01:36 AM

Guest Sally: you should know that using Warren Buffet as a source on this forum will bring you nothing but pain. Most of these folks hate any that smacks of success and wealth. Many of them hate Wal-Mart because that's what they do.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST,Sally
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 01:56 AM

Ron, my comment "we all have our flaws" was not appropriate. It minimized the seriousness of the alleged offense. I just like to keep myself in check as I start judging others. But with regard to your implying that his $6 million per year should be enough to avoid the temptation to pilfer, there are many of us who wouldn't steal money from our employer if we were earning beans and potatoes as remuneration. I'm recently retired and I don't like recalling the times I emailed non-work-related messages on my job when I should have been checking to see if others needed my assistance. In a sense, that was stealing time from my employer and I'm ashamed. This thing at W-M and everywhere else today is not about salary. It's about character and greed. But every one of us can reflect and see that we're not perfect. I still argue that there's more good than bad about W-M and other discounters.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST,Sally
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 02:24 AM

Ron, talk to me about Costco's philanthropic activities. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 08:45 AM

Sally, for a meaningful debate, cite your sources, as Ron has done. I'd esp. like to know how you know that Walmart associates are very happy people.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 10:54 AM

Katlaughing,
Ron asked for my source on the average wage. Got that from a speech made by Lee Scott, CEO, in California in Feb. 2005. I checked on Internet last night and saw that someone is debating portions of that speech, and since I don't have the time to research on and on about who's accurate and who isn't, I plan to omit the numbers in the future. I surely don't care that Ron misspelled (sp) Coughlin the first time and felt the need to correct--the meat of his message is what's important for me. About happy employees, I've shopped in so many Walmarts around my home and in towns and cities while vacationing and because of the W-M bashing, I've asked how they like their jobs. Sure, they may think I'm a shopper, but I think I can discern enough to know. One told me she wished her hours could be better while attending college and another told me she hated it her job (she was in hardware making keys). I encouraged her to go straight to the manager because I knew he'd care, which she did, and in a few months when I saw her she told me things were better. Today, 8 years later she's a happy department head, feeling important, needed, and making more money. I know that they try to ensure that there's a family atmosphere, despite the number of employees. I've known of associates who were in terrible financial stress and others who had illness in the family, and employees collectively embraced those individuals in a big way to help. I know another woman who lost her husband and couldn't have done it without the help of her store associates. The company is huge, so there are bound to be some managers who aren't as people-oriented as they should be, but overall this is what I've experienced. I wouldn't be happy in retail, and thank God I had skills to do something else, but I'm convinced from what I've seen and discussed, that this is truly a company that cares about their employees and expects the management staff to carry that out. Some might say, "That's because the associates meet the public." Whether it's from the heart of those at the top or a duty, they know that having employees happy is the right thing to emphasize. That's a duh!!

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST,Guest Sally
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 11:10 AM

Kat,
Forgot to say I'm worried about the whistle blower. But I talked to a former boss who was VP at a very large chemical company his entire career--one you'd know right away--and he tells me that historically whistle blowers just don't make it after the explosion. But I still wonder why he was fired. Did he possibly carry out an alleged dishonest order from the top and is also to blame, then decided to blow the whistle "innocently" for fear they were closing in on him, or is he just plain resented for the revelation. If it's the latter I'll be very disappointed. It's so easy to say "I'm sorry sir but I can't do that." But I'm older and young people might be so intimidated that they don't have the confidence or the brains to refuse. I feel there should be laws in place (maybe they exist) to protect those who follow inappropriate orders like the sexual harrassment laws that have come into place over the past 20 years, but then each of us is responsible so I'm talking about of both sides of my mouth. G.S.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 02:36 PM

Interesting Sally, thanks for answering. I'd like to see more documentation in general.

Does it strike you that you said it was the other employees who helped each other out, NOT, notably, the company per se? Happy or not, it's been my experience that work associates can rally round when need be whether the company leads them or not, in fact sometimes it is in spite of the uncaring attitude of the company.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 03:17 PM

It's possible that Ron Davies got fired at Wal-Mart because he couldn't do the job and has a vendetta.

dougR is soooooooooo right!

Mudcatters can't deal with others who have financial success.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: DougR
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 05:01 PM

kat: if Sally were to supply you with proof that Wal-Mart associates are happy employees, would you believe it? Actually, that would be very hard to do, I suspect, because your going to find some that are happy, and some that are unhappy.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 06:51 PM

No,MG, we can't deal with ignorant people who run their mouth and don't back it up with facts. Or they can just use vile language and reference to body parts. I suppose that is a suitable alternative to intellect when you don't have one.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 07:42 PM

some that are happy, and some that are unhappy

Exactly, Doug...ergo, no blanket claim of "happy employees" can be made

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 09:24 PM

[bleep - for antisocial behavior]Big Mick, don't back up into anything too sharp. I'd hate to see you shooting across the room.

Your intellect is not nearly as big as your pants size. FYI, you don't impress me as much of an intellectual. Here's a body part that's laughable: your brain.

Isn't it time you had another Irish whiskey? Glad to see your chain is still oh so yankable.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 09:40 PM

1) Re: the sad story of my employment at Walmart: Did you say Walmart?
Uh, Marty--I thought you said you weren't on drugs anymore. What have you been smoking?

2) The successful don't brag about success--with your wonderful powers of observation surely you've noticed this? You, on the other hand, seem to talk about success a lot. Hmm.

3) Lower level Walmart employees are pretty clearly worse off than most Mudcatters. It seems the only way for them improve their situation is to put pressure on management (when management isn't too busy pilfering).

A union will administer pressure to improve wages, working conditions, etc. Could that possibly be why Walmart management fights it so hard?

Sorry, "Marty", that you don't agree that lower-level Walmart employees should be helped

Congratulations, however, on staying out of the gutter in your post. I appreciate the sacrifice you made venturing away from home. Would you like to try for 2 filth-free posts in a row? (I thought not).

Looking forward to your next sparkling contribution to the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 10:45 PM

"Sally"--

1) When was the last time Warren Buffet worked as a low-level employee at Walmart? Please enlighten us.

I have nothing but respect for him as an investment guide and for his unquestioned long-term success and business acumen.

(As usual, Doug R does not know what he is talking about. You'll have to get used to that. Well, at least it's something certain in an uncertain world).

By the way, are you aware that Buffet was one of Kerry's economic advisors? In fact, he little respect for many of Bush's policies, especially his tax policy and his cavalier atittude toward the deficit.

However, I suspect that as a barometer of the happiness of low-level Walmart employees, he's not in fact a "reliable gauge".

2) Still waiting for your sources on your figures. What the CEO says in a speech, unfortunately, doesn't cut it--he doesn't qualify as an objective source. I take nothing on faith--neither should you. My figures, as I said, are from the Wall St Journal 28 Mar 2004--you're welcome to check.

3) I have nothing against discounters--if they treat people right. Again I ask--if Walmart is wonderful, why are some of their employees on welfare? Also, what is your view on the bill in the Maryland legislature I cited earlier?

4) Regarding charitable contributions--in an earlier thread Kendall pointed out that Walmart is actually often far less generous than the local businesses they drive out of business.

5) A few figures, from the Wall St Journal article:

In 2004 Walmart paid starting salary of $7.65/ hr for cashiers at its Las Vegas supercenter. That's below poverty level. Costco paid starting employees at least $10/ hr. Within 3 years cashiers can make $40,000/ yr at Costco.

Your figure of $10/ hr average at Walmart means some are below that.

Not even close to a living wage.

No wonder some Walmart employees are on welfare.

And Walmart, it's pretty clear, will never pay a living wage until the workers force them to do so, by banding together in a union. No wonder Walmart fights the union so viciously.


Interested to hear your comments.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST,Sally
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 05:26 AM

Ron,
Will get back with you on Buffet and other details after some checking, but this is for those who wanted more proof of happy employees. Doug's right that there are certainly some associates who aren't happy, as found everywhere, but I'm impressed with some things I've learned from a Walmart Dist. Manager who listed some positive things. In his 15 years with W-M, he's seen many decisions to fire people overturned. He says he's proud to work for a company who does give individuals second chances: As a DM, he says he's spent a great deal of time on people issues to ensure fairness and a pleasant working environment. Some examples he's been involved in or has known about thatinvolved others:

1) When a store manager he liked hiring former inmates whose offenses were such that he knew other associates would be safe. The reward in seeing them turn their lives around was priceless.
2) Morning meetings are important to show associates that they are valued: associates are recognized for doing an excellent job, for good sales in a particular department the previous day, if familly members are sick, for achievements of their children, for volunteer work in the community, etc. The meetings are important tools for maintaining a "store family feeling."   
3) In one Walmart, upper management learned that the store manager rarely held morning meetings and was fired. That store manager used the open door policy to ask for a second chance and was given a smaller store three states south. But he had learned how much value upper management places on daily contact with associates.
4) When the DM I spoke with first became a manager, he soon found that he wasn't as fully prepared as he and his superiors had thought. He trudged forward a few more months but felt he needed more time as an assistant manager. He was allowed to step down as a co-manager and within 6 months was offered another store. He felt 100 precent more prepared.
5) He has sat in meetings where he felt an employee had not been treated fairly and has assured the associate that the treatment would not continue. In addition, he has requested in front of the store mgr. that he receive follow-up from the employee to ensure that the environment is pleasant and safe.
4) A recent example was an associate who off and on missed 30 days of work during a 6-month period, was lazy, and took breaks longer than allowed. She used the open-door policy, complaining of nitpicking by an assistant manager who's an excellent role model w/a great track record. The DM listened to the woman for about 15 minutes, then cited her attendance record, history of long breaks, etc., saying he found it hard to believe that the assistant mgr. was the root of the problem. He said, however, that he'd like to see her become a model employee and gave her a second chance. He did tell her to take a "decision-making day" (time off for one day to reflect). The first day back, she took her usual break and then slipped back in the break room again for another 45 min. She was fired the following day.
5) A customer was very rude to an employee. Employee, instead of walking away as they're instructed, became angry and responded verbally with a threat. The associate, usually a model employee, was given a "decision-making" day, returned, and has continued to be a great asset. He was selected to attend the Shareholders' Meeting this coming summer and is thrilled at the opportunity.
6) This one is important and successful: Grass-roots surveys are completed via computer anonymously by all store associates once a year. Employees are asked specific questions about members of management (if info is imparted regularly regarding benefits and store procedures, if treated fairly, etc.) The final score affects a manager's eval. If serious problems are noted, home office personnel send an HR person to the store for further investigation. This process recently shed light on quite a serious problem in a store on the East Coast. A high percentage of employees threatened to walk if the manager was not removed. The HR rep determined the concerns were valid and the manager was placed as co-manager in another store within 24 hours of the investigation. That manager remained as co-manager about a year and then left W-M.
7) The company works w/employees to allow leaves of absences for health problems and for illnesses of family members.
8) I personally know a man (now at the home office) who was assistant manager at a W-M where I shopped years ago, used the open-door policy, and never received any negative treatment as a result.
Hope this gives you people a better feeling about Walmart.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST,Sally
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 05:45 AM

BTW, I'm not a Republican. Always voted for the person. Didn't vote for Bush. Still think Clinton is brilliant except for his pathetic judgement. Husband and I cancel each other's votes in most elections but we're not as extremely different as Carville and Matalin. Hope some of you will still place credence on future stuff from me about W-M.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST,Sally
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 07:22 AM

Ron,
I thought it would be crazy for Mr. Scott to utter facts that aren't actual facts in his Calif. speech, as many W-M haters are listening and hoping to "get him," but I'll do as you say and will attempt to find an outside W-M source for respsonding to your questions. I think you're a smart man--articulate and fair to provide sources of info--but could you please be a little less sarcastic. It would be more pleasant. To others: I've been known to utter expletives myself, mostly in the confines of my home, but it's best to leave the crude stuff out of this as well. And BTW, I'm pretty much a bleeding heart liberal Ron. Give me your source on the welfare thing about some of the W-M employees. What about welfare people at other companies? And I'm curious...how did this website get started. I just saw BS W-M when I looked up Thomas M. Coughlin, and decided to jump in. Anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 08:52 AM

Sally, sorry, but those are all anecdotal. I'd still like to see some cited source besides a "company man."

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: harpgirl
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 09:37 AM

Read a new article about WalMart: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A51521-2005Apr13.html

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST,Sally
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 09:50 AM

Kat,
Anecdotal info is fine with me if I get the info from the horse's mouth, based on incidents that he himself experienced. If this is really important to you and you doubt the accuracy, refer to an outside source that does surveys on this topic. I agree with Ron that health insurance being offered to part-timers after two years at W-M is certainly not the same as being offered after 6 months on the job elsewhere. But having a DM at W-M tell me things that are expected (demanded?) of him with regard to treatment of associates has credibility with me. It's difficult to know whether associates interviewed are really happy. Many need their jobs, and then there are those who are disgruntled maybe from their own doings and want to get even. I guess a survey regarding turnover and reasons for leaving would be the only way to determine this. Are you not impressed with the grass-roots survey at W-M? Are you not a W-M fan and therefore wouldn't accept any positive info I came up with? If so, it's a futile effort for anyone. Hope I'm wrong to assume this.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 10:48 AM

I just wish that somebody could prove to me why it is Wal-mart's or any other corporation's responsibility to pay what YOU consider to be a living wage. The gov't says that they only have to pay minimum wage. If they're doing better than that then what's the problem?

This is a free country and nobody tells them that they have to work for Wal-Mart. If they're not happy then don't take the job. Eventually, the lack in quality workers will drive the labor prices up in search for those people. Let them go out and open up their own businesses or find other jobs elsewhere. And don't come back saying that the jobs that Wal-Mart offers are the only ones available. The newspapers are full of job offers. You just have to be willing to do whatever it takes to succeed in your job as well as life.

Wal-Mart is like any other large company, well, is like any other company of any size. The reason that you go into business is to make a profit. Not to make sure that everybody in your community has health care or makes $40,000/yr. They are not there to provide a valuable service to your community. If they do provide a valuable service to your community then we should thank them instead of demanding that they do more and then haul them to court if they don't or even worse than that, try to extort more money from them for higher wages. No wonder they are shutting the doors in communities that are trying to form unions. If their costs go up then, ultimately, yours do to.

You probably know down to the penny on how much you need each week to keep what you have and maybe get a little bit more. Believe me....Wal-Mart knows exactly how much they need to keep what they have and to gain a little bit more. If they can't get that, then why shouldn't they close the doors?

Afterall, nobody, whether it be an individual or a corporation, likes to lose money.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: DougR
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 01:19 PM

Sally: believe me, you will never be able to provide evidence to support your POV regarding Wal-Mart that will satisfy the Wal-Mart haters on this forum.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 01:23 PM

So don't feel the need to p!ss up that rope Sally....

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 03:14 PM

Sally, I appreciate that from the horse's mouth is credible for you and I know it seems difficult to substantiate amorphous claims of "happiness", etc. Contrary to what a couple of others have said, I do not hate WalMart, I don't like their bullying tactics. I mourn the loss of small, local stores. I don't like that our culture has come to the point where people feel, as evidenced in Hubby's posting, that a company need not concern itself with bringing any value to its community; I loathe the misuse of "power over peons," which is exactly the way I view what Walmart has done ala the article for which harpgirl provided a link.

My son worked for a man who owns a LOT of rental properties in a small city, thousands of apts. He has many, many employees, makes an exceptionally decent living for himself AND pays his employees quite well, plus offers benefits, including health insurance. His rentals are clean, swell-serviced and maintained, and much sought after. Because he practises a "pass-it-on" philosophy, a sharing of his wealth, in very positive ways, his wealth continues to grow AND bring value to his community. One of the very positive things he does for his employees, after they'd been with him for over two years, if I remember rightly, is take them all, en masse, on a week's vacation, all expenses paid, every year. He hires a plane, makes all of the reservations, etc. then the whole group goes to such places as Cancun (my son loved that one!), Jamaica and other places.

My point is, he is a canny business man, he makes a good profit, yet he pays excellent wages, spends it and still has money to live very well. I think it has a lot to do with his positive attitude and the way he chooses to use that in running his business. There are other ways to run a business besides the run-over-your-competition and intimidate-your-employees way.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 03:36 PM

The problem with anecdotal evidence, Sally, is that for every story you or Doug can produce of happiness, I can produce 10 of abuse, some with tragic consequences. My point of view is steeped in personal experience as a union organizer and community activist in the towns where these events happened. When you have folks of divergent views, such as Hubby and Doug, and myself then one must look to the evidence. This is why Ron's point of view carries more weight in the discussion, in my view, than yours or Doug's. It has cites and they come from a journal that would be more inclined to support business interests than not. I mean no offence when I say that, but yours and Doug's are based on a "he said, she said" approach.

Or you can listen to people that castigate a whole life's work with comments about "pimps and whores", or one who refers to body parts, when they can't come up with a decent argument.

I will say that I can at least respect Susu's Hubby. His arguments are philosophical, and he makes no pretense otherwise. He and I come from different points of view. He isn't pretending to be something he is not, and comes at it straight. I imagine I would enjoy drinks and lively conversation were I ever to meet him.

The other ignorant person I would have to avoid or I might have to teach him what a fat Irish boy can do, musically and otherwise.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 03:47 PM

[bleep - for antisocial behavior]Man you are one sick, obsessed person, big Mickey.

I doubt if you could teach me much except how often you can buy a larger belt. Please take a moment to exhale. I am having plenty of decent conversations with many Catters here and on PMs. some of them might even be about you and your......................problems.

What is your whole life's work, Mick? Oh, don't bother. I'm really not interested. I need to stay awake right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 03:51 PM

***chuckle*** I love making him dance.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 04:16 PM

[bleep - for antisocial behavior]You don't make me dance, Big Mick.

That itch in your crack is what makes you dance, though. I feel sorry for you that it's so hard to reach.

Big guffaw!

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 04:20 PM

***hee hee heee**** See what I mean? Really easy. I am enjoying this.

How about a little more, little man? This is fun.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: DougR
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 04:49 PM

Ron Daves:I read your laundry list from the Wallstreet Journal of last year comparing Costco with Wal-Mart.

I'd suggest, if you ever need a job, you apply at Costco. I don't think you would be particularly happy at Wal-Mart.

And by the way, did that article also quote bottom line net income figures for both companies? I'll betcha Wal-Mart made out better than Costco. Oops, forgot. Corporations aren't supposed to make money. Right Ron?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 05:15 PM

[bleep - for antisocial behavior]Well, fat man. I'd rather be little than fat.

Now, if you could only justify all of that killing you did in Nam.

Now, who's laughing?

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 05:48 PM

big Mick, I take that back about the Nam thing.



Now why don't you just go and pretend that I don't exist and I will do the same about you.

Try to realize that you don't have any effect on me. I have plenty of friends here and I'm not going away because this place is just too morbidly fascinating.

So realize that Mudcat is going to have to live with both of us here and if you don't like me or my comments, I really don't care for the feeling is quite mutual. However, I believe you look for trouble and I assure you, I will not ignore you and will continue to FOLLOW YOUR LEAD when it comes to insults.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 05:50 PM

Walmart is a study in efficiency. It is structured to trim as much as possible from operating costs and deliver products cheaper than their competitors. I think it is a losing proposition to 'blame' them for doing what they do so well. It is rather for the unionists to research THEIR efficiencies, their global capabilities, and re-invent themselves as necessary.

To be competitive with someone, you can try to better yourself, or beat them on the head with a hammer until they perform worse than you do already.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 05:52 PM

Oh my god, robo!

I am so proud of you!

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 07:43 PM

Martin, I accept your retraction on the 'Nam thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST,Sally
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 10:57 PM

Some of you could be stand up comedians. Kat I enjoyed the story about your son's employer. What a generous man who truly values his employees. I still like Walmart because,considering it's so large, they have such emphasis on fair treatment of employees. Whoever said that for every happy employee I talk about, he can describe 10 other cases of abuse, I cringe at that. As big as these companies are, there's no doubt there's some of that--it's inevitable but I seriously doubt 10 to 1. For the most part, there are satisfied people at Walmart. I don't think they'd walk in and apply if they didn't think they were suited for that culture.

On the down side, like you Kat, I prefer smaller stores. Who wouldn't prefer Main Street USA with attractive shops and boutiques. But our culture has been slowly changing for years, and so I accept the new environment when I reflect on my childhood when I know damn well that many in my hometown couldn't afford the mom and pop prices as easily as some others. So, despite the changing countryside, I like that more people can have what only a segment of society had in the past. My biggest gripe is aesthetics. I've hated the garish "Walmart blue" buildings that invaded the scene for years and I'm happy to see that more have earth tones these days. However, while traveling I observed one W-M in a mid-Atlantic state that had signage all over the front of the building and I know that the town's planning commission and/or city council did little or nothing to negotiate for an acceptable appearance. I know these companies will work with the towns. I also hate all the vacant buildings across America and that W-M and others will build a store and 10 years later, within a mile or two, will build a supercenter. But the good news is that some cities across the country are now requiring large discounters to have a plan in writing, before they can build, as to what'll be done if their building become vacant. Now for a comment that'll tick off some of you. There's a college prof somewhere in the Midwest who assists cities and towns in their effort to fight W-M, of which I'm sure you're aware. I heard this man on MSNBC reluctantly admit that W-M has done a lot to help our economy. As I mentioned before, I'm sure they'll shift to no. 2 or 3 slot one day, but for now, by keeping prices low, people continue to buy. I'll wait for your attack.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 11:12 PM

Sally--

OK, Sally--no more sarcasm with you. You have established that you are a sincere woman, not a (probably male--most are, I suspect) troll. If you're a troll, you're an excellent one--fooled me good. As I'm sure you know, on the Net you never can tell and trolls are everywhere, including on Mudcat.

However, still waiting for any objective evidence from you (as Kat and Mick have pointed out, anecdotal evidence is not adequate.) RE: Walmart CEO's statement in a speech--it's actually quite safe for him, since nobody can contradict him--Walmart does not in fact give out wage rates, since, as the Journal article noted, they vary by location. (I also suspect Walmart just does not want to publicize them, but I have no proof).

I'm not surprised that a Walmart district manager is positive on Walmart (but, as Shania Twain said, "That don't impress me much"). In contrast to lower-level employees, I'm sure he is paid very well--I'd guess about $80,000 to $100,000. Ask him that.

Again, his answer does not reflect reality for lower-level people.

It's somewhat amazing to me that somebody who makes less than $10/ hr., as some do, would be called an "associate". This sounds like a salve to compensate for rock-bottom wages. But you can't eat a gobbledegook title (sorry-- sarcasm creeping back in.)

A great illustration of the welfare aspect is the Maryland bill. Since Medicaid is the program for the indigent, obviously Walmart's health insurance program is not adequate, so Maryland winds up footing the bill for poor Walmart "associates". The legislature wants Walmart to carry its own weight--by either devoting 8% of payroll in the state to health concerns or putting the difference in the Maryland state Medicaid program.

Also, my understanding is that poverty level is about $18,000/ yr. for a family of 4. At $10/ hr, I calculate that a worker would make about $19,200 / yr.--just above poverty level. But, as you point out, $10 /hr. is just an average--some are below. And, if you read the Post article linked by Kat, you find out that some full-time Walmart "associates" are limited to 28 hours per week--they would definitely be below poverty level, hence candidates for welfare----- (I'm sure Canada is not the only place they cut back hours below 40 per week.)



Oh yes, the web site. Mudcat is actually a folk-music oriented site (probably the best in the world), but it's separated into music-related topics and BS. Here, in the BS section (below the line) we discuss anything----and I do mean anything--take a gander at some of the other topics.

You're more than welcome to join us in music or non-music topics here in the "Cathouse"--and it's ferociously addictive. As you can tell, we have quite a cast of characters.

You can get a mind-boggling amount of information on music here--and from all over the world.

Wilkommen, Bienvenue, Welcome!

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 11:31 PM

Sally--

We cross-posted.

Just a few more things

After Walmart has driven the local businesses out of business, employees of those businesses still have to eat, etc. So many may apply for Walmart jobs. It doesn't mean they feel they are "suited"--just that Walmart may well become the only game in town. It's either that or move--and many can't move.

Walmart "has done a lot to help our economy"--but not for those who are priced out of the job market by Walmart's constant grinding on suppliers to provide the absolute lowest price to them, so they can maintain their profit margins. Those jobs migrate to the cheapest producers--not usually in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST,Auggie
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 03:22 AM

Ron
I like most unions.
I derive a signifigant portion of my income through their members' utilization of deserved and hard-won benefits, but, you gotta get your facts straight if you're going to make a convincing argument.

Here in my corner of rural America, Walli-World pays over $12 for full timers and almost $10 for part-timers. Can you live on $10? Man, I know I'd sure hate to try, but most of the Wal Mart part-timers I know aren't trying. They are high school and college kids,retirees, or wives picking up hours while the kids are in school. They're not trying to live on $10/hr nor just 28 hrs/wk. They are merely supplementing the primary wage earner's income, pension, or stashing cash for college. Don't want to support a family on $12/hr @40hr/wk. either? Then it is incumbent upon you to get an education or acquire job skills that will separate you from those employed in unskilled labor positions. Stocking shelves or scanning at the checkout never was and never will be a lucritive position for its practitioners.

I too, heard the oft-repeated stories of Wal Mart coming to town and driving the competition out of business. But, in the 4 or 5 years they've been out on the fringe of our town (pop. under 10,000) the only downtown businesses to close down were a pet shop, a lunchenette and a tattoo parlor. If anything, the noon time chamber of commerce gossip would indicate an increase in volume at some retailers due to shoppers thinking that as long as they've come far from home to get to WM, they might as well pick up a few other things on the same trip to town at other local stores.

Do I shop there? Not if I can help it. Nor do many of my peers, but you wanna know why? It's because many of us regard Wal Mart as "outsiders". Most of the families in rural America plant roots. Deep roots. And then they remain close to those roots. Not for years. For generations. Profit taking interlopers like Wal Mart are regarded by many "locals" as the 21st Century version of carpet baggers, and much like their 19th century counterparts they seem unavoidable and often unstoppable.

I'm glad there are folks who try to keep this "Day of the Locust" from being at hand, but you gotta do more than create and then defeat "straw man" arguments like you fed poor Sally.

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST,Sally
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 08:06 AM

Ron,
Thanks for your input. Music is a big part of my world--classical, rock, and folk in that order. I'm a big CCR fan. Also looking for an old version of an opera (Le Perichole--not sure of spelling) that I can't find and will plea for help from classical music buffs later; however, this might not be a good website for that one. More on Walmart on Monday after an out-of-town overnighter. Auggie had some good points, accurate I'll add. Ninety percent of part-timers at W-M are supplementing their income derived at another job--unless students. I agree with you that some work there knowing they aren't a good fit. I do know a music major in a rural town who hated dealing with disciplinary problems teaching in the public schools, so she's at one of the county's only two places of employment where she can receive benefits -- Walmart! She's very happy there, which surprised me with her background, but I think it's a time in her age when she needed the Walmart family, despite the culture that would get old with--if I had to work there....no offense to anyone. W-M has a great place in our society. More later.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 11:40 AM

If you think my arguments are "straw men", talk to Big Mick, who has been dealing with the reality--and that's what it is--for probably decades.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 11:43 AM

Also, you have chosen, for some unknown reason, to dodge the question about the Maryland legislature and the "Wal-Mart" bill. Now I wonder why you did that.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 11:53 AM

The above 2 messages were for Auggie, not Sally.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: RichM
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 02:56 PM

Whatsa matter, Martin? 'Cat got yer tongue?

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 01:56 PM

No, been busy living RichM, while you are staring at a websaite just waiting for my return.

I am just so impressed that Ron Davies quotes Shania Twain. It just adds so much to his intellectualism. Next thing he will be quoting Brittany Spears.

Wal-Mart rules. Best place to buy and save.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: DougR
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 02:51 PM

I suppose your local newspapers reported today (Sunday) that Wal-Mart has just closed a store in Canada because the workers voted to unionize. I suppose most of you will view this as a hostile act against labor, right. I think the company figured it could not meet future union demands and still return the type profit it's shareholders expect.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 04:31 PM

That right, DougR.

Wal-Mart cannot survive if it has to pay fair wages and benefits.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: DougR
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 01:27 AM

Horse pucky, dianavan. Wal-Mart will show a profit or close the doors. It's not whether or not there is a profit, but rather how much. Shareholders of Wal-Mart stock, which includes a lot of "common folk" are anxious that the profit be as much as possible of course.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 03:16 AM

Thats why I would never invest in Wal-Mart. I prefer ethical funds. Since when do "common folk" have enough money to invest? Certainly not the "common folk" who work at Wal-Mart!

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST,pinion
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 03:31 AM

Once again Martin Gibson proves himself to be a complete idiot. Just because the heat has not shown its affect in the Walmart store yet does not mean we are wasting our time in applying the pressure. He then goes on to lose his temper and get censored by mudcat.

The people are free to associate in unions. Any corporation which chooses to violate those rights does so at thier own risk.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST,Fairminded Sally
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 07:57 AM

Ron,
Since, as you read in my previous comments, for the most part I defend Walmart. I'm amazed, however, that I've shared with you guys the things I do and don't like about Walmart and other big discount boxes. I want to know more about the Maryland thing but I have to study elsewhere. Like you guys don't put much stock in my "anecdotes" I don't feel I can trust anyone in this forum to keep it fair. The passion seems to be either love or hate. There's not an ounce of ambivalence. I resent immensely that none of you found the DM's comments to have any credibility whatsoever. Not one of you said, "that made me feel better, but I hope he wasn't just sounding forth to make Walmart look good." And why aren't you all down on other companies who aren't unionized? And why don't you talk about the negative aspects of union involvement. The original intent was good, but there are plenty of sages throughout the years who've talked about the damage unions can do. Bib Mick, you talk about all the times Walmart hasn't followed the law.....could you please give me a long list. In the recent illegal alien thing (floor cleaning), these were subcontractors who were contracted to clean floors. Are they not responsible for knowing their employees' backgrounds. There was a regional VP in some Walmart division who allegedly accepted a kickback from a cleaning crew but that I believe was a separate, isolated incident. He was fired and deserved to be fired. But I resented that Walmart had to "settle" out of court and pay the U.S. 11 mil for the carelessness of the subcontractors. Does W-M have to police ever sub that they hire? Why is all the responsibility on W-M....because they have the bucks to pay Uncle? I thought that was grossly unfair. I reiterate that I feel that I'm the only one in this forum who'll take a look at every fact and say something like "Yea Walmart was very wrong there," or "Yes, it's wonderful what Wlamart gives back to the community." Kat, I think you were the one who commented that you mourn the loss of the small downtowns of yesteryear when retailers felt a sense of community (I'm obviously paraphrasing here). I think Walmart does a great job to give back. And all the passionate Walmart haters don't trust W-M's motives. I'm amazed that one of you mentioned that for every 10 associates who are happy, he knows 10 cases of abuse. And you guys won't accept MY anecdotes? I did ask the DM about his background....he grew up in a blue collar neighborhood with rabidly prejudiced parents. Today he's a different person, valuing his fellowman. He told me that he's proud to say that his mother today is a different woman. The DM dropped out of college after two years, and wishes he had finished but said that for now he doesn't desire going back---might one day after retiring. Although he started with Walmart as an assistant manager (had managed for another retailer, he said that he's proud about 75 percent of his company's store managers started out as lower level associates. I have to do more checking regarding other comments.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST,Sally
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 08:05 AM

BTW, I have a lot on my plate, facing a house move, so please forgive me if my sentence construction isn't as clear as it should be--don't have time to proof. Just try to get my message--that's all I ask.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST,Union Guy
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 08:06 AM

There is an easy way to fix Wallyworld. Stop shopping there.

Also every body that is being fucked employment wise should quit.

UG

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST,Sally
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 08:39 AM

Union Guy,
Many people can't just quit their jobs. It's better to resolve if possible unless the abuse is so widespread that it's hopeless. I took a boss to HR years ago and the process was fair. I did get permission from the boss before going to HR. We were able to continue our working relationship with no more problems. There really are some people out there who'll stop their shenanigans if higher ups demand it. I'm amazed that none of you gave any credence to my telling you that I personally know a W-M associate who used the open door policy and had no problems from having done so. My emails this morning are not about "poor me" but to let you see how I feel about this forum. One more question. Do the Walmart haters on this forum EVER shop at W-M? I hope you don't. I think it's uncanny that many of the people in a Charlotte, NC suburb who worked hard to get signatures to petition against plans for a W-M in their area are big shoppers there today. One of the women in this neighborhood says they all laugh about it now. I believe that if you believe a company isn't ethical, you should be big enough not to walk in and take advantage of their low prices. With many people it's about ego---not wanting anyone to think they'd stoop to a discount box.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 09:52 AM

To all WM bashers concerned:


If you want to pay thirty to forty percent more for your personal items at some mom and pop shop, then by all means, please do it. Quit telling us how to do our shopping. I really don't blame WM for closing the doors at the sight of union organization. If I were a business owner, which on three separate occassions I was, I'd close my doors also if I was threatened with extortion from some union. There are plenty of people out there that know exactly what they want and don't want. I think that most people know that there are more illegal activities going on inside unions all across the country than there ever has been going on inside Wal-Mart. Don't continue to think that a union is the ultimate answer. It seems in this case to be the reason why lots of people LOST their jobs rather than receive an increase in pay. What about those people who didn't want to join the union? Where are they now? Probably working for minimum wage in the mom and pop store instead of making better than minimum wage and having some type of benefits offered to them. But I guess that is OK with all of you. It seems to give steam to your cause when unions cause people to lose jobs and benefits and add to the roles of people on welfare.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: DougR
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 12:01 PM

And the unions blame the corporations of course.

For your information, dianavan, since you don't seem to know it, lots of "folks" own stock in Wal-Mart, including Associates. Wal-Mart offers 401k plans, as well as stock purchase plans to their employees.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 12:44 PM

Okay, here are some excerpts, with sources. Fair warning, the last link leads to MANY articles which I have not waded through, so DON'T blame me if you don't agree with some of them; I post them as a matter of interest and will read some as I get time. Good luck on your move, Sally.

UC Berkeley study estimates Wal-Mart employment policies cost California taxpayers $86 million a year

"By Kathleen Maclay, Media Relations | 02 August 2004

BERKELEY – Employment policies at Wal-Mart, the nation's largest employer, cost California taxpayers approximately $86 million a year in public assistance to company workers, according to a University of California, Berkeley, study released today (Monday, Aug. 2).

"The study indicates that Wal-Mart workers in California rely on the state for about $32 million annually in health-related services, and $54 million a year in other assistance such as subsidized school lunches, food stamps and subsidized housing." (there's more via the link)

From the Terra Haute Business Journal:

Click here for full text (I would urge you to read the whole thing)

"This lawsuit involves more than 113,000 potential plaintiffs, amounting to all Indiana Wal-Mart employees—including those working at Sam's Clubs—from August 1, 1998, to the present, and involves allegations that Wal-Mart and its managers refused to allow employees lunch and other breaks, as well as other violations of Wal-Mart employment policy and Indiana law regarding off the-clock and overtime work.

"Reynolds Brissenden, attorney with the firm representing the plaintiffs, said in a telephone interview that these alleged violations were systematic and profit-motivated. "I will say this, it's remarkable how employees that we've interviewed from the same departments, but from stores as far north as La Porte and as far south as Evansville, have faced the same problems of not getting their breaks and of not being paid for all the time that they've worked," Brissenden said. "Plaintiffs contend in this case that it's not by accident, it's by design."
    "Plaintiffs state that Wal-Mart maintains a labor budget for each store, known as the "Preferred Hours Budget," at corporate headquarters, located in Bentonville, Ark. Each store manager is responsible for his or her own budget, which must in turn be approved by the district manager, according to the demands of the Preferred Hours Budget."


Lots of article links at WalMart Workers of Michigan

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 01:20 PM

Guest, Sally, are you also "fairminded Sally". Regardless, keep contributing to the thread. Your words may appear to be ignored and yet you'll find someone will glom onto this thread and appreciate them. Also, I believe most of the people on this thread are in fact fairminded (in the long run). I just watched an American public television show, FRONTLINE, episode titled "Is Wal-Mart good For America?" I liked the show because I think it presented both sides and did not draw its own conclusion. It did not deal with union issues at all, rather it dealt with the changes in the American economy wrought by Wal-MART as being such a large consumer goods force that it now dominated its suppliers, which is a major change in the order of economic structure in the US. And driven by (extremely) cheap overseas labor, Wal-Mart has chosen (rather recently, beginning in the 90's) to be supplied by overseas suppliers (read: China) directly supplanting local labor, from blue collar to white collar as entire companies go under or are bought by other companies.

Wal-Mart representative justly said that consumers are the big beneficiaries because they can buy goods at lower prices. Displaced workers say the United States is the loser as goods are produced overseas and jobs go with them.

I don't think it is obvious who is right or wrong just yet. As usual, the economy is like a deadly serious game of Musical Chairs, and the rewards go to the adaptable. But is there enough raw material to keep all the adaptors going? The balance of trade suggests the answer is: "no", but that's my first cut answer. The US economy has proven to be quite ruggedly adaptable before and there may be surprises in the old gal yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 02:25 PM

From Walmart's own policies:

5. BUY AMERICAN COMMITMENT

    Wal-Mart has a strong commitment to buy as much merchandise made in the United States as feasible. Vendor Partners are encouraged to buy as many materials and components from United States sources as possible and communicate this information to Wal-Mart. Further, Vendor Partners are encouraged to establish U.S. manufacturing operations.

Nearly everything I've ever seen at a Walmart has a "Made in China" label on it. Seems they were smart to include the caveat, "as feasible" in the above. What irks me is they are a big enough company that they could have a strong and real effect on changing this, as robomatic has pointed out they've done to the Amercican economy.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 03:06 PM

[bleep - for antisocial behavior]Guest, Pinion I understand that you are on the verge of bankruptcy because of how poorly you spend and manage your money.

fuck unions where they are not wanted.

Unions have driven most labor costs right to China.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: jpk
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 04:49 PM

i can live with or without wm, i will not buy from there,reason being,when you walk into a wm,you can smell the cheapness.not in price, but in quality.cheap as in you get less than you paid for.each to his/her own i guess

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 05:06 PM

jpk, maybe you are just smelling the inside of your nose.

Or maybe it's the poor people that can afford to shop there that offends you so much.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 05:08 PM

100th post for the workers!

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: jpk
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 05:16 PM

hi idiot,i am one of those poor people. i just want something i buy to last more than 10 min,like maybe 10 yrs,to me a good deal is paying for something once,not over&over&over,etc. mostly well made,not well it was made;but it broke

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 07:49 PM

You guys swallow anything you read in the newspaper. How do I know I the associates are providing facts. No question, I'm interested but how do I know they aren't disgruntled about something and want to hurt the company. I remember when Jane Pawley (sp) years ago had a negative story about Walmart that never developed further. Since then there have been others, and if I were a reporter, maybe I'd also be trying to break the story of the decade, but I'd do everything possible to make certain what I reported is accurate. I haven't seen one thing in my paper about Thomas M. Coughlin, which I think is strange. This is a large metropolitan area with an award-winning paper. However, I don't trust journalism as I did when I was younger. Too many apologies these days from editors for inaccurate info, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: DougR
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 08:13 PM

kat: I read your post and the sources you supplied to support your point of view. In my opinion, it adds up to zilch. If the state of California takes the Berkley study seriously, let the state file suit against Wal-Mart to recover the welfare money the study suggests Wal-Mart employees have siphoned from the state treasury. I wouldn't take bets on the state winning the case however. If Wal-Mart employees are not satisfied with their employer, or with the salary they are making they should make haste to find employment at a company they would like better and pays better wages than Wal-Mart.

As to the other source, all you have brought to our attention is a class-action law suit that has evidently been in the courts for years. Wal-Mart has not been found guilty of anything, nor have they been exonerated. I would not be surprised if similar law suits against Wal-Mart is pending in other parts of the country too. How do you you think the trial lawyers make so much money? Filing law-suits against potential money sources! Wal-Mart's got a big round target printed right over it's logo.

Let the courts decide and if Wal-Mart is found guilty, THEN offer the case as evidence. It's still "not guilty" until proven so in the U. S. isn't it?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 10:13 PM

Hubby, you went from being a guy with a point of view, in my opinion, to a slogan slinging idiot. Perhaps you could come up with some data to back the assertion that unions are criminals. Perhaps you could check the financial bonding rates for union rep's as opposed to small businessmen, large businessmen, Walmart store managers, preachers, rabbi's, etc. and see how we stack up. I think you will find less corruption in our ranks than yours. But you just want to play into stereotypes. It is the sign of a weak mind.

Unions haven't driven the work to China, greed has. If you were to check back a mere 20 years or so you would find that the average business owner made about 70 bucks for every dollar their employee made. Today it is something like 800 bucks. Do you know anyone else whose pay went up like that with or without a union? I didn't think so.

Find someone else to blame for the fact that you probably weren't a very good manager of your business. Cliche's don't hold water in a debate.

You, Martin, and the so called Fair Minded one are just shills. I don't buy into any of that.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 10:14 PM

And by the way, Doug. The courts have found them guilty, time and again. But you keep alibi'ing them, buddy.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 10:33 PM

And this just in:

Wal-Mart stock is up today .18/share

Shitloads of shares traded by people who believe in what Wal-Mart does.
Why is that? Because they do business smart, perhaps.


Whiners here equals completely zero effect. As DougR says, "zilch"

I said it before, the complainers here know much about business, hate corporations, and most things that they feel in this country that is good. No wonder we have so many here that are depressed, taking meds, just sitting at some computer all day, and sick or infirmed.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 11:47 PM

"Martin"--

You neglected to mention, however, that Walmart stock hit a new low for the year last Friday and has been stagnant for several years. Costco, however, has done well in recent years, and is still, even after Friday, much closer to its high for the year than its low.

Interestingly, Macroslop (Microsoft) has also reeked as an investment in the past few years, and is now dragging along the bottom of its range. Meanwhile Apple has close to tripled in the past year (even after Friday)).

Perhaps the monopolies are falling on hard times (poor boys).

Certainly hope you, Martin, and Doug et al. were smart enough to bail out of Walmart several years ago. The market doesn't seem to share your enthusiasm for Walmart. But then you always know better than the market, so I'm sure you'll be fine.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 12:16 AM

Its the only thing some people understand. If you hit them in the pocket, they start to get the picture.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: DougR
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 01:24 AM

Ron: thank you very much for worrying about my portfolio. However, I really don't think I require your help. Look our for yourself, my friend.

Mick: I understand your POV as a Union organizer. You have to make a living, and I'm sure you are good at your job. However, there must be some reason why there has been a decrease in Union membership over the past few years. What accounts for it it?

Unions served a useful purpose years ago, but I think they have outlived their time. It's a new world, Mick, and I'd urge you to find other more employment with a more promising future. Just my opinion of course.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:41 AM

It is, however, quite interesting---Doug R and "Martin" have been waxing lyrical on the wonders of Walmart for at least the year I've been a member of Mudcat, and telling us about all the ordinary people who are invested in it, as well as, I'd say, implying that it's a good investment. During that time Walmart stock has been one of the worst performing of the Dow.

So, the question now becomes--are they ignorant or hypocritical?

Taking the charitable interpretation, I would say they are ignorant.

In fact, it just continues a virtually unbroken string of absurd claims and false information from them.

Caveat emptor.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:58 AM

Hubby--

I echo Kat's posting of 15 April 2005 3:14 PM. But, closer to home--I recall you said you've had several businesses, all of which failed.   Perhaps your attitude toward employees---they should be grateful to get anything above minimum wage-- played a role.

It certainly does illustrate crystal-clear the need for unions--to counter such selfish and shortsighted greed.

Contrast your entrepreneurial record with that of Bobert--he started a successful business. I suspect his attitude toward employees was vastly different from yours.

As Kat says, there is in fact a point to treating employees decently. A few pennies above minimum wage doesn't cut it.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 06:38 AM

Pay peanuts and you'll get monkeys.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 08:35 AM

So, the question now becomes--are they ignorant or hypocritical?

"All of the above" is the correct answer.

Of course, they could simply be complete assholes.

(like the soon-to-be-confirmed U.S. ambassador to the UN)

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 09:57 AM

New year low is irrelevant when one had the vision to get in at the beginning, Ron Davies

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: DougR
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 12:43 PM

Thank you, Ron Davies and Greg F (good old greggie) for the insults. You both rank pretty high in my book too!

:>)
DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 12:50 PM

Actually they both are just rank.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 01:44 PM

Mick and Ron,


Although I appreciate your critiquing of my business experience, both of you have no clue nor would even attempt at guessing the true reasons why I have closed the businesses that I have had. Stop trying to turn this dialogue into a demon hunt because you can't support your own ideas. It just shows how desperate the union mentality is to be back to your glory days before the American electorate got smart and started voing more conservative.
The days of the UAW, Teamsters, AFL-CIO, and whatever other leg-breaking, bat-toting, thug organizations you guys belong to are long over. Reagan was right whenever he fired the ATC's for their illegal strike. I just wish that some of the companies in the US would have the guts to do that instead of moving out of the country because of the extortion tactics that you guys seem to hold dear to your hearts. It's true....you guys cost more jobs than you create.
Face the facts. You bitch about wages and benefits but you still manage to collect those union dues each and every month come hell or high water. I've got a nephew who tried and tried to become a steel worker and finally had to join the NAVY to become one. Why, do you ask? Because nobody would hire him due to the stranglehold that the United Steel Workers union have on all the big construction companies and telling them that they can't hire non-union steel workers. He refused to join the union and he couldn't get a job. How's that for putting people to work? I've got another nephew that wanted to work on a loading dock for a trucking company but didn't want to join the Teamsters. He was fired because of the stranglehold that the Teamsters have on the trucking companies which dictate to them that they can't use casuals who don't belong to the union. What did he do? He joined the Army.
You know......on second thought.....maybe unions are a good thing. There's two shining examples of how unions have caused two very fine upstanding young men to join the military to fight for your freedom of telling people why they can't have the high paying jobs that your forever complaining about. I owe you thanks. Keep up the good work....pretty soon we'll have all the good ones and you'll be stuck with the WM rejects.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:26 PM

Good post, Hubby. Too bad it's like talking to a bottle of laxatives.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:44 PM

He refused to join the union and he couldn't get a job

Hey, Bubby, tough shit. Its his own fault- his choice. All choices have consequences & he'll just have to learn to live with his, like a grown-up. Something you might try, as well.

Your complete ignorance of the history of labor in the U.S. (or possibly simply your complete ignorance-vide below- is glaring. You've got the leg-breaking, bat-toting thugs on the wrong side of the equation.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 04:04 PM

Thank you Greg for your insightful views.

and to you I say you're right. It was his choice on whether or not to take those jobs. He chose not to.....


Just like it's WM's CHOICE to not let unions come in and decide for everybody what's best for their company.

If you would just think before you speak you would really save a lot of embarrassment.



Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 04:20 PM

Lo siento mucho, Bubby- but your lack of knowledge & understanding and your fallacious reasoning don't embarrass me in the least.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 04:49 PM

Nothing could embarrass you Greg F. Except if someone saw your schmuck and how little it is.

What you guys don't get is how funny it is that you hate Wal-Mart and all things corporate and such and how you have absolutely no effect on them. You just like to posture and act like radical leftists and therefore you justify your failures in being a part of society.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST,Bobby George
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 06:30 PM

123
... never won a game

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 12:13 AM

A
He had choice between joining the union or joining the Army.

He joined the Army.

He had a choice between joining the union or joining the Navy.

He joined the Navy.

I'd say they weren't very good choices. Maybe they need more education to help them make good decisions. Sounds like a lack of critical consciousness to me. Maybe a better education would have helped them to consider their choices more carefully.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 07:35 AM

This thread is doomed........once again the libs are caught with the "deer in the headlights" look and know that they can make no viable argument so resorting to changing the subject and personal attacks are coming to light. You guys never change.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: jpk
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 06:28 PM

to all of you die hard union bashers(unions can do some good as well as bad)look up the employment practices of the duponts,rockafellers,westinghouses,vanderbilts,and all the rest of the old name,turn of the last century money families, i think that you will find that they were not very saintly. in fact mister M.G. sounds to me that like[cheap goods] of all kinds.does that include peoples labor as well as maybe there lives,just so you can buy your cheap walmart (china made?)crap!

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: DougR
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 06:32 PM

Yep, Hubby, you got that right. They are masters at personal attack. Your comment to Greg F. reminds me of an old Texas saying: Sometimes it is better to remain silent and be thought ignorant, than it is to speak and remove all doubt. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 09:01 PM

If only The Douggie would take his own Texican-style advice...

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 09:13 PM

jpk you haven't got a clue.

Cheap goods? What, like name brand items like perhaps Tide Laundry detergent or Tylenol, or maybe the bottles of Coca-Cola or perhaps the Crayola crayons for the kids at school.

And don't give me that idiotic crap that they make them cheaper for Wal-Mart. Name brand companies are not going to jeopardize their reputations.

You obviously were educated in a heavily populated barn.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 09:19 PM

DougR, Hubby, etc,

These moron libs can dish it out but sure get bent out of shape when you give it back to them.

All liberals do is mock, laugh at, and criticize. Mock the government, mock religion, mock big business. They are the ones who should be mocked. Much of the entertainment value I find out of this place below the line is to mock the mockers.

The howling that results is what kind of keeps me coming back.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 09:46 PM

OK, let's try this again. Hubby, like Martin, you are full of shit. When facts fail you, you fall back on tired old cliche's that simply aren't true. Historically, it wasn't the unions who started the violence. It wasn't the unions that had the National Guard, Pinkerton's and assorted other thugs killing it's members, their spouses and their children. Read about Ludlow sometime.

If you were half the patriot you seem to think you are, you would understand that your nephews tried to gain employment at a shop that had a union agreement. The law says that they must become members. Would you like to know why? It's because the union was formed when the folks that worked there chose to create a bargaining unit in a government supervised, democratic election. This is not a radical concept. There are many things in a society such as ours that we must comply with, even if we are opposed. Like taxes. If I had my way, I wouldn't pay one cent to support this stupid war we are in. If I had my way, not one cent of my property/income taxes would be used to give Walmart tax breaks when they don't need them. But I live in a democratic republic, believe in it, fought to defend it, shed blood for it, so I live with the rules. It is a great concept, and you really ought to look into it.

Doug, you are normally pretty intelligent, but when you have nothing better to say, you resort to the cheap shot. The evidence is pretty conclusive. The destruction of peoples collective bargaining rights have many reasons, not the least of which is a concerted effort by business interests, and their lobbyists, and their shills in the Republican party, to weaken the laws which protect workers who simply want a voice in their workplace.

And hubby, one more thing. Walmart, if they are following the law (which they generally don't), doesn't get to choose if they have a union. But they violate the law wholesale, intimidate the workers, and that is how they remain union free.

Which brings me full circle to the question that all you right wing wacko's refuse to answer. How is it that decent, upstanding, respect-the-laws, let kids die to defend us, conservatives such as yourselves don't seem to have values when someone continually break the law? This company has a record that is a mile long, but that doesn't seem to bother you. Why? Because you are hypocrites, that's why.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 09:49 PM

[bleep - for antisocial behavior]Ooooooooooooooohhh it was Big Mick who was the Guest.

Fat Old Big Mick lecturing us when he can't even seem to manage his own life and family.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 09:51 PM

[bleep - for antisocial behavior]Hey Mick. Wal-Mart will get you a good price on those size 50 waist boxer shorts you need.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 10:04 PM

Hubby--

"This thread is doomed" 7:35 AM 20 Apr 2005----if you think about it a bit, you may just possibly figure out that every thread is doomed. Duh.

But it can always be resurrected. So, in common with most of what you've said, that statement is meaningless.

2 nephews of yours refused to join the union, so you're not a big fan of unions. OK, fine.
As Dianavan has pointed out, however, that was their choice--you make your choice and you live with the consequences. And pointing this out is by no means a personal attack--unless you're so sensitive as to perceive it that way.

If you can't stand the heat....


It's also clear from what you've said about workers that you would be the "boss from Hell"--well, I sure can't think of anybody who would voluntarily work for you.

I'm sure that your attitude toward workers had absolutely nothing to do with the failure of your businesses. On the other hand ,as I pointed out, Bobert, with his far more generous attitude toward employees (and people in general), started a successful business. I'm sure it's just total coincidence.

Also, still waiting for your comments on the Maryland legislation--I wonder why they would think Walmart should be contributing more toward medical care for the poor--unless it's for the reason I cited--Walmart systematically underpays its lower-paid workers, and provides such abysmal health care coverage that it has to be forced to do what it should already be doing.

Yes, I know you think companies have no obligation beyond paying minimum wage--certainly none on health care.

Ah, for the good old days before the labor movement. Sorry--they're gone--you lose.

As for the "wisdom" of the US electorate now voting conservative--actually it's pretty clear that the result this time was primarily due to the successfully hate- and fearmongering campaign of our illustrious "leader". Demogoguery works--that's been obvious long before Germany in the 1930's.

Always glad to hear your response.

But--just think-- if you want the thread to die, all you have to do is not respond.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 07:13 AM

Mr. Rosenmutter (AKA "Martin"):

Don't bother to tell us you had the vision to get in at the start of Walmart. Your credibility in this, as on virtually everything else ---(please, "Martin"--talk to us about guitars--it's the only thing you may know something about)---is somewhat below zero.

As one of my most admired stock analysts on this forum (recognize anybody, "Martin"?) said "This just in":

Walmart hit another 12-month low yesterday.

January 2000 to January 2005 Walmart has been worse than stagnant. Hit about 68 in January 2000. Never even has hit 65 since then. Yesterday's close was about 47.

In that time (Jan 2000 to Jan 2005) Costco almost doubled.

Yes, with your superior knowledge, I'm sure you're a giant in the business world.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 07:38 AM

Wow...WM stock @ $47?


Sounds like a bargain to me.
Buy it while it's down.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 08:59 AM

Right, but don't answer the point made.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 01:17 PM

Way back up the thread somewhere, Dianavan said:

There's also a story circulating that WalMart was busted for transporting illegal alien to clean their stores. Any truth to it?

You got a wrong handle on the story, Dianavan.   Close, but no cigar.

Wal-Mart was having outside contractors come in to clean the stores. The INS jumped the contractors for using illegal aliens. There were charges against Wal-Mart (as I recall) for not supervising the contractors who were being brought in to clean, to make sure they were using only legals.

No-one (at least to my knowledge) claimed that Wal-Mart was "transporting illegal alien(s) to clean their stores", but only that, in the never-ending search for the lowest-priced vendor, they were turning a blind eye toward the vendor's practices. The idea was, "They must have known," or maybe "They should have known."

If I'm mistaken in the above, I'm absolutely sure someone will correct me.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 03:24 PM

Oh, good. They weren't actually SELLING slaves, just using slave labor.

That sure makes 'em moral & upstanding & engaging in fair competition in the marketplace.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 10:05 PM

Dave - You are probably right.

I'm glad someone is making them accountable for their share of the responsibility. 'Its pretty easy to say, I didn't know anything about it...' but not so easy to find labour that cheap anywhere else.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 10:23 PM

[bleep - for antisocial behavior]Ron Davies, OK if you want to call me by some goofy name Rosenmucker, I will take the pleasure of always referring to you as Ron "douche bag" Davies. Doesn't matter to me. Rosenfucker is not my real name and either is Martin Gibson.

But Ron "Douche Bag" Davies is most certainly yours and you are a better bag of chemicals for it.

Yeah, Wal-Mart is at a good price now. The whole market sucks. Actually it went up today about a half a point. You guys should have bought, but the fact of the matter is, the majority of you fat, bearded, balding guys know nothing about business. Most socialists don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 02:15 AM

Actually the whole market does not suck. My ethical growth funds are up again.

People are starting to pay attention.

Shareholder action is a powerful tool for corporate change.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 07:11 AM

Hubby--

Indeed, excellent suggesstion---why don't you and Mr Rosenmutter ("Martin") rush out and buy Walmart while it's down?--I'm sure you wouldn't want to to be thought hypocrites for not doing what you urge others to do.

Walmart at this point is what is known as a "mature" stock---read "rotting".

Enjoy!


Mr. Rosenmutter ("Martin")--

Please be so good as to quote at least one instance in which either Mick or I have mocked religion.

Thank you so much.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: jpk
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 05:14 PM

hi M>G> well mine might have been a barn,but it was ours.now how about that outhouse you came from.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 05:46 PM

[bleep - for antisocial behavior]jpk, about as clever as could be imagined from an idiot as yourself.
About as effective as going na, na, nan, na na.


Ron Dick Gozinia Davies. You and Mick are mockeries of just about everything that is what's good about America. along with your seething arrogance, of course. bitch, whine, and complain must be such a tiresome lifestyle.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 06:41 PM

Ron, isn't it funny that when called on facts, this puppy just goes to name calling? Still has the intellectual heft of a flea.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 10:45 PM

"Intellectual heft of a flea"--what a felicitous turn of phrase, Mick. And so apt.



Mark "Martin"----

Still waiting for just one quote, by either Mick or me, which mocks religion, as per your post of 20 Apr 2005 9:19 PM.


We're coming to the put up or shut up stage--sorry I have to be blunt, but it appears that anything more subtle is lost on you.


By the way, why do I think you and Doug in fact have not bought any Walmart lately, even though this puts you both in grave danger of hypocrisy? Let's just call it ESP.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: jpk
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 03:09 PM

well m.g. re 18 apr you whine about poor then brag about walmart stock which is it you rich or poor.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: jpk
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 03:25 PM

also re 18 apr ,gripping about someone sitting at a computer allday,seems to me m.g. sure has a lot of postings floating around.could there be more than one,lord,lord isure hope not!

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 03:44 PM

[bleep - for antisocial behavior]Dick Gozinia Davies, I don't have to prove anything. You prove it all of the time yourself.

Put up or shut up? Your socialist and arrogant attitude speaks volumes on what kind of POMPOUS AND ELITIST moron you and Big Mick both are.

Deal with it. I think you both really suck. Others here do, also.


jpk, you are at this point, unintelligable and just mumbling. Go drink some chocolate milk or something.

Jesus, the SOO-DOH intellectuals here just take this forum so seriously.

Oh well, just another day of mocking the mockers, who just can't stand it when it's dished back at them.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST,Noah Webster
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 07:29 PM

Martin Gibson, it took me awhile to figure out what you've been trying to say with this "SOO-DOH" thing. Then it occured to my that since you are only semi-literate, you didn't know how to spell it.

It's "P-S-E-U-D-O." Pseudo-.

Just so you don't make the mistake of mispronouncing it, the "P" is silent (you know, as in swimming).

Call on me amytime.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 08:51 PM

"Socialist"?   Try Republican.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 10:50 PM

"Martin" Mark, or whatever the ineffable name happens to be (look it up, o nameless one)--

You have given more than ample reason to be bleeped by anybody just stumbling on this thread for the first time, as on virtually any other thread on which you have graced us with your presence. Except possibly guitar threads.

And this is no mystery to you.

You know what the rules are.

If you can't stand the heat....

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 10:51 PM

In plain English, which there is a chance you might understand:

Stop whining.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 11:15 PM

Actually I am just ignoring you, except when I want to make you dance. It is easy to do, rosenmutter putz in drecht. But I will let you in on a little secret. I have a rule that I haven't broken in a long time. I never delete anything you say about me. Whenever that has happened it has been others, and they make the decision on their own without any input from me. It is a little concept that you are not familiar with. It is called ethics. Read up on it, but it can get deep so read slow and for comprehension.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 09:14 PM

Mark, "Martin", Bozo, or whatever you're going under these days--



Still waiting for your proof of our mocking religion.



Also, re: fat bearded balding guys (21 Apr 2005 10:23 PM)

You've been looking in the mirror too much lately.


As anyone who's met me can tell you--wrong on all 3 counts.

Try slim, cleanshaven, with lots of blond hair (on my head, even).

And taller than you.

Of course, that's no real challenge--I suspect half the women on Mudcat are taller than you--one of the myriad (look it up) sources of your insecurity and resentment of the world at large.

So you're 0 for 3 (or 0 for 4 if you count "Socialist".)

Of course, you're the one who brought up appearances. Most of us realize how important they are--not.

Why don't you go back to guitars?-- (as I said earlier, the one topic you may possibly know something about).

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 10:00 PM

Reputable?

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 11:08 PM

Congratulations, "Martin" (or is it Bozo?). You've actually emerged from the gutter, Why don't you stay out of it, though it's been your home for so long? You'll find the air up here is actually a lot better.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: harpgirl
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 11:12 PM

Martin Gibson is really lepus rex.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 May 05 - 08:35 AM

Well, well, Walmart earnings are out and the Street did not like them (source--MSN Money 13 May 2005).

Walmart took a hit, both on Thursday and Friday--still dragging along the bottom of its 52-week range--in fact, as I pointed out earlier, anybody who bought Walmart in January 2000 is still considerably below water.

Interestingly enough, however, Target did fine, and Costco is still in the middle of its 52-week range. Aside from Walmart, the retail sector appears in good shape.

Certainly hope Doug R and "Martin" followed their own advice and rushed out to buy Walmart stock when they were urging everybody else to do so. I'm sure they did buy it then, since they certainly wouldn't want to be considered hypocrites.

The word is that Walmart is feeling the effects of its wretched policies towards its own employees, resulting in an amazing cornucopia of legal problems (perhaps they should change their name to "Lawsuits R Us"). The suits include gender discrimination and wage and hour violations, among many, many others.

But not just that--Walmart is "struggling with same-store execution".

Translation: Walmart is rotting.

Come on now, Doug R and "Martin"--get out there and buy that wonderful Walmart nerchandise you crave so much. Don't let the team down.

With "Martin" 's wonderful instincts, its no wonder he's such a successful businessman.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 May 05 - 09:31 AM

If you can't find "nerchandise", you may have to be contented with "merchandise".