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BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)

AgingBohemian 11 Apr 05 - 08:02 PM
SINSULL 11 Apr 05 - 08:10 PM
curmudgeon 11 Apr 05 - 08:31 PM
Once Famous 11 Apr 05 - 09:20 PM
JohnInKansas 11 Apr 05 - 10:20 PM
Bobert 11 Apr 05 - 10:29 PM
JohnInKansas 11 Apr 05 - 10:31 PM
Bobert 11 Apr 05 - 10:38 PM
frogprince 11 Apr 05 - 10:57 PM
Ebbie 12 Apr 05 - 03:23 AM
robomatic 12 Apr 05 - 07:26 AM
Jim Dixon 12 Apr 05 - 02:38 PM
Once Famous 12 Apr 05 - 02:52 PM
Joe Offer 12 Apr 05 - 04:07 PM
JohnInKansas 12 Apr 05 - 05:23 PM
Ebbie 12 Apr 05 - 05:42 PM
Once Famous 12 Apr 05 - 06:02 PM
Once Famous 12 Apr 05 - 06:05 PM
GUEST,MarkS 12 Apr 05 - 06:52 PM
Janice in NJ 12 Apr 05 - 11:32 PM
Joe Offer 13 Apr 05 - 01:32 AM
Paco Rabanne 13 Apr 05 - 11:24 AM
Once Famous 13 Apr 05 - 11:30 AM
JohnInKansas 13 Apr 05 - 03:15 PM
Once Famous 13 Apr 05 - 04:55 PM
GUEST 13 Apr 05 - 05:28 PM
Once Famous 13 Apr 05 - 05:31 PM
jpk 13 Apr 05 - 06:54 PM
Janice in NJ 13 Apr 05 - 07:58 PM
Once Famous 13 Apr 05 - 10:03 PM
Paco Rabanne 14 Apr 05 - 04:55 AM
Crystal 14 Apr 05 - 04:58 AM
Paco Rabanne 14 Apr 05 - 05:07 AM
Crystal 14 Apr 05 - 05:44 AM
Paco Rabanne 14 Apr 05 - 06:03 AM
GUEST 14 Apr 05 - 06:05 AM
Crystal 14 Apr 05 - 06:09 AM
John P 14 Apr 05 - 08:11 AM
John P 14 Apr 05 - 08:13 AM
Wolfgang 14 Apr 05 - 11:12 AM
GUEST 14 Apr 05 - 11:20 AM
Blissfully Ignorant 14 Apr 05 - 11:38 AM
Paco Rabanne 14 Apr 05 - 11:52 AM
GUEST 14 Apr 05 - 02:33 PM
Once Famous 14 Apr 05 - 03:11 PM
GUEST 14 Apr 05 - 03:33 PM
Once Famous 14 Apr 05 - 03:40 PM
GUEST 14 Apr 05 - 03:45 PM
JohnInKansas 14 Apr 05 - 03:52 PM
GUEST 14 Apr 05 - 05:04 PM
Blissfully Ignorant 14 Apr 05 - 05:15 PM
GUEST 14 Apr 05 - 05:31 PM
Blissfully Ignorant 14 Apr 05 - 05:35 PM
Once Famous 14 Apr 05 - 05:39 PM
Blissfully Ignorant 14 Apr 05 - 05:54 PM
Once Famous 14 Apr 05 - 05:58 PM
GUEST 14 Apr 05 - 06:05 PM
Burke 14 Apr 05 - 06:40 PM
Blissfully Ignorant 14 Apr 05 - 06:47 PM
Burke 14 Apr 05 - 07:19 PM
Blissfully Ignorant 14 Apr 05 - 07:23 PM
Blissfully Ignorant 14 Apr 05 - 07:25 PM
Burke 14 Apr 05 - 07:34 PM
Once Famous 14 Apr 05 - 09:28 PM
Janice in NJ 15 Apr 05 - 12:15 AM
Peace 15 Apr 05 - 12:36 AM
Blissfully Ignorant 15 Apr 05 - 12:38 AM
Crystal 15 Apr 05 - 04:28 AM
JohnInKansas 15 Apr 05 - 08:18 AM
harpgirl 15 Apr 05 - 09:50 AM
harpgirl 15 Apr 05 - 09:57 AM
John P 15 Apr 05 - 10:20 AM
harpgirl 15 Apr 05 - 10:36 AM
Paco Rabanne 15 Apr 05 - 10:44 AM
GUEST 15 Apr 05 - 11:29 AM
Once Famous 15 Apr 05 - 12:15 PM
GUEST 15 Apr 05 - 12:37 PM
Once Famous 15 Apr 05 - 12:59 PM
GUEST,harpgirl 15 Apr 05 - 01:37 PM
Once Famous 15 Apr 05 - 03:50 PM
GUEST,Jaze 15 Apr 05 - 05:26 PM
Once Famous 15 Apr 05 - 05:30 PM
John P 15 Apr 05 - 10:23 PM
harpgirl 16 Apr 05 - 12:13 AM
harpgirl 16 Apr 05 - 12:25 AM
GUEST,Alasdair 16 Apr 05 - 02:51 AM
JohnInKansas 16 Apr 05 - 05:27 AM

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Subject: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: AgingBohemian
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 08:02 PM

How about this?

It seems to me that both sides in the gay marriage debate are polarized around the word, "marriage". Advocates of same sex unions strive, in the use of the word, for full parity with advocates of heterosexual only unions, while the advocates of the latter wish to retain the use of the word for what they see as the traditional, biblically condoned union of a man and a woman.

I think the solution is not to end the debate one way or the other, but to shift it to where it more properly belongs: to each persons religious community. How?

The state should get out of the marriage business.

That is, the state concerns itself with a couples civil rights. The state therefore performs civil unions, and only civil unions. Churches perform marriages. In that way, couples who wish can share in the rights and responsibilities of such unions, and churches can decide for themselves whether their theology allows them to perform a marriage or not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: SINSULL
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 08:10 PM

Big red flag: Are heterosexual couples who choose not to be married in a church or by a religious representative not married?


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: curmudgeon
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 08:31 PM

When done by the "state," magistrate, mayor, judge, JP, ship's captain, et al, it is a "civil" marriage. All others are uncivil.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Once Famous
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 09:20 PM

Men buttfucking each other is not civil and is more anti-social than anything I can be bleeped for.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 10:20 PM

"Holy matrimony" is the business of the church, and if they have any complaint it should be that a "marriage license" is an intrusion into something that is not the business of civil authority.

The "marriage license" exists, or should exist, only to make visible to the community at large that a civil contract exists permitting either party to act on their joint behalf or to execute powers of attorney on behalf of each other in matters of civil law.

Demanding that the civil certification that a contract exists must prescribe what kind of sex the parties to the civil contact are permitted - or required - to have, the bigots are FORCING an even more intrusive civil interference with what they call "holy ritual and covenants."

The assumption that SEX - of any kind - is the only thing that marriage is made for reflects a pretty low opinion of one's own faith and rituals.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 10:29 PM

Ummmm, I like the idea... Let the state deal with the "civil" (in terms of law) aspects and let the churches deal with the spirituality of the relationships...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 10:31 PM

Funny thing Bobert, that's what the US Constitution says we're supposed to do.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 10:38 PM

Yeah, yer right, John... Like what happened?


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: frogprince
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 10:57 PM

I still may have to get my (so far as I know) original bumper sticker made: "Privatise Marriage, not Social Security".


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 03:23 AM

I've been proposing the same thing for some time, and I have made the point that one would think that the churches would want the state to get out of the marriage business. It is a religious, even spiritual, ceremony- the state needn't go there. Everything that the state should be concerned with is in the civil union.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 07:26 AM

I don't think it will work. It makes sense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 02:38 PM

If marriage is regarded as a religious rite, then the state will have no more right to say who can get married, than who can get baptized. Fine with me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 02:52 PM

hemmorroids from sodomy should prevent a marriage license.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 04:07 PM

So, Martin, do you have any logic to back up your statement? Should pregnancy or shared venereal disease stop a heterosexual marriage?
Or do your rules just apply to homosexuals?

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 05:23 PM

Although I have known several homosexual couples, of both sexes, I can frankly state that I have never seen any of them having sex, and don't know whether they do or not. I see no reason why that's really any of my business.

Come to think of it, I've known quite a few heterosexual couples and I dont' recall ever seeing any of them have sex, and don't know whether they do or not. I see no reason why that's really any of my business.

I have known at least three separate heterosexual couples who informed me that they do not have sex. In two of the cases it was the male who volunteered the information, while it was the female in the third instance. This information was volunteered as an explanation for why the couples had no children, and in all three cases the explanation was "neither of us has any interest in sex." That also was none of my business, and not particularly of interest; but they offered the information because a couple of nosey busybodies asked.

While I would have to agree to an extent with herr Gibsons opinion that men buttfucking is not something that would be something to be desired - if it were my butt - as long as it ain't mine it ain't my business.

Perhaps Martin Gibson has one of those pretty little butts that the boys just can't resist; and I can see how it would be a nuisance to be always in such great demand; but as long as they leave mine alone I'll let him settle his problem with those who want him so badly. It ain't my business to tell them, or him, what to do with his dainty butt. (And it's NOT HIS BUSINESS to tell them what they can do if it ain't HIS BUTT - IMO.)

Freedom of choice, Martin. Just QUIT WATCHING THEM.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 05:42 PM

Well said, JohninKansas. And thanks for the laugh!


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 06:02 PM

Freedom of choice. Fine.

Freedom of speech to also say it's perverted and unnatural.


Just don't flaunt it at me and worse yet, pretend that the perversion is OK to teach in schools as acceptable behavior.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 06:05 PM

It's not my rules, Joe. It's society's rules. And they don't have to be rewritten to accomodate a few.

and since when should pregnancy cause a marriage to be denied?

BTW, I'm not talking marriage here. I'm talking about a lifestyle.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: GUEST,MarkS
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 06:52 PM

Great comments from John in Kansas and almost everybody else. If two people of any persuasion whatever want to be joined in a civil union for legal reasons, there is no reason why the State should not issue the permission slip known as a license. (Sure, subject to sensible qualifications of age of consent, not already civilly unioned to somebody else, etc.)
If those same people choose to be joined in the civil union in the church, synagog, mosque, etc of their choice, for reasons of sacrement or tradition, then go for it and much luck and joy to them. You can call it a marriage or whatever language works in your tradition. And if your tradition does not recognize your choice of partner, maybe this is not a real great tradition to be part of anyway!
If you choose to have your civil union celebrated by the mayor at the local firehouse (been there), thats great too.
I still call my former significant other my spouse, and she calls me, well, lots of things, but I digress!
The point: It's a civil union in all cases. To argue about if it is a marriage or not, is one of those things which hey, if it important to you than OK, but the word marriage has no bearing on the legal status of the couple.
Mark


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 11:32 PM

Martin Gibson says "BTW, I'm not talking marriage here. I'm talking about a lifestyle." Lifestyle, eh? Since when is one's sexual orientation a lifestyle? Anyway, I'm altogether sick of that word lifestyle. I don't have no stinkin' lifestyle. I have a life! I prefer it that way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 01:32 AM

Well, Martin, I have to admit that I consider most overtly sexual behavior to be offensive if done in public - whether it's homosexual or heterosexual, doesn't make much difference to me. I think some things are best done in private. So, if homosexuals do their mating in private, that's fine with me. I do get very uncomfortable in some situations when the conversation is heavily sexual, whare there's a "sexually charged" atmosphere. If I'm the the one involved in the "charge," I feel completely left out.

You say it's society's rules that prohibit homosexual contact - but who is society to determine what adults do with each other in private? And if two men want to pledge lifelong fidelity and responsibility and love, who am I to stop them? If they want to be married to each other, how can it be fair for me to stop them? I thought lifelong fidelity, responsibility, and love were wonderful "family values."

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 11:24 AM

"So, if homosexuals do their mating in private that's fine with me" errrrrrrhhh... Joe, homosexuals can't "mate," there can be no offspring.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 11:30 AM

Good point Flemenco Ted. Maybe Joe thinks a fudgepack will sprout a baby one day.

Janice in NJ, apparently you have never witnessed a gay pride day parade. It is all about a lifestyle and it's flaunted in the straight world's face.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 03:15 PM

It appears that Martin and Ted agree with the intent of recent campaigns in establishing that:

1. Marriage is completely, entirely, and exclusively all about sex.

2. Only Martin and Ted are qualified to determine what constitutes permissible sex.

3. Since "everybody" agrees with Martin and Ted, the rest of us must not be included in "everybody" i.e. we don't matter if we disagree so it's okay to pass laws to make us do as they say.

4. There is a statutory requirement that Martin has to attend gay pride demonstrations.

Martin definitely holds an advantage over me, as he at least implied that in his schools kids are now taught how to have sex. We didn't get that when I was young, so I had to figure out some of it on my own. Maybe that's where he got his understanding that:

5. It has to be illegal to form a civil contract unless someone gets fucked.

I thought this latter one was just a tradition in Law and Advertising schools, but apparently - to Martin - it has more general applicability. I'll definitely have to look into that.

I'm a little disturbed by the contention that the only purpose of marriage is to have children, since I know several "childless" marriages. I guess I'll need to tell them that their relationship is illegal now. Maybe they just didn't have children because they didn't get that "how to have sex" training as kids. Martin will have to tell us whether he'll allow them to be retrained and taught to fuck right (Martin's way).

I am still a little confused though. I thought that marriage was about forming a relationship in which people share an entire life and lifestyle, and all Martin seems to be able to think about is having sex. And he's never mentioned whether he does it - he's only interested in how others do it....(?). Maybe he didn't pay attention in that class.

Stay with me. I'll figure this out eventually.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 04:55 PM

While your at it John figure out why anyone would want to live in Kansas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 05:28 PM

Toto oh Toto!


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 05:31 PM

Canned Ass.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: jpk
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 06:54 PM

if in the course of ordinary biological acts, they can beget offspring, then let them marry. (i.e. would they have been a usefull couple to noah on the ark).if they are fruits,i bet that they would not have been on board !!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 07:58 PM

M.G. states, "Janice in NJ, apparently you have never witnessed a gay pride day parade. It is all about a lifestyle and it's flaunted in the straight world's face."

A few facts...

• I have not only witnessed many Gay Pride parades, I have marched in several of them.

• I have been an active member of ILGO, the Irish Lesbian and Gay Organization.

• If I were an Eskimo, I would start an organization called IGLU, the Inuit Gay and Lesbian Union. Our slogan would be "Come out of the cold!" (Only joking, but I couldn't resist.)

• It's not a lifestyle; it's my life.

• I don't flaunt anything other than my big Irish ass, and I do that in everyone's face, queer or straight or anywhere in-between.

• If you ask me "Exactly what do you do?," I'll answer, "More than you can imagine."

• I own both a Martin and a Gibson.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 10:03 PM

So what. Any pervert can own a guitar.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 04:55 AM

John in Kansas,


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Crystal
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 04:58 AM

"It is all about a lifestyle and it's flaunted in the straight world's face."

So?


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 05:07 AM

john in Kansas,
             Rant on dude! My post above is simply a atatement of fact which even you could not deny surely? Mr Offer likes to pull me up on my incorrect use of apostrophes ,so I ought to return the favour and correct his error, ie - homosexuals cannot breed.
             As to the other point of 'flaunting it in the straight worlds face,' think on this one - In ancient Greece pederasty was very common and quite fashionable. If this practise took wings nowadays, would you be banging away on mudcat telling me I have to accept it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Crystal
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 05:44 AM

"In ancient Greece pederasty was very common and quite fashionable"

We have an age, known as the age of consent, persons under that age are deemed not mature enough to have sexual intercourse. In Aciant Greece the age of consent was lower (12 I think, but don't quote me). therefore sex with a 12 year old was perfectly legal.
Under UK law a person still needs the permission of their parents to get married or live away from home at the age of 16 (the age of consent). By law they are still a child, therefore sex with them is probably definable as pederasty (although not illigal) and most people accept it.

This is a simple statement of facts (although possibly not very well explained) not a personal attack Ted, I'm pointing out a simple difference in values between two widly disperate cultures.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 06:03 AM

Well said Crystal. The most important point you made was 'difference in values.' The Gay culture is as alien to me as that of Ancient Greece, and the fact that it is now legal wont persuade me otherwise.
My original question still stands though. If pederasty with boys was 'flaunted' openly, and as vociferously in public as homosexuality is, would you tell me to accept that too?


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 06:05 AM

Gibson, I thought you would have wanted to stay away from any views that could lead to persecution of individuals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Crystal
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 06:09 AM

no I wouldn't tell anyone to accept it if they didn't wish to. I do feel, however that tolerence (which is different to accepting somthing) for those different to yourself is important.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: John P
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 08:11 AM

I think most of the folks in this thread are missing an important point: we have sexual perverts in our midst, and they are trying to force everyone to share their perverted viewpoints. Martin Gibson is loudly and lewdly interested in what other people are doing in bed and I, for one, think that's really sick.

Martin, you sick pervert, get some help.

John Peekstok


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: John P
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 08:13 AM

As for the original proposal of this thread: of course that's the only reasonable solution. Lots of us have been saying that for a long time. And I think that's where it will end up.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 11:12 AM

What makes pederasty different from homosexuality is simply this:
The legislator has no business to interfere with any type of consensual adult sexuality. Even heterosexual couples sometimes do things others may consider 'unnatural'.

Only if the 'consensual' part is missing (rape etc.) or the 'adult' part is missing in one partner (pederasty, paedophily) it becomes the business of the legislator to interfere.

No one expects everybody to find every kind of sex admirable or tasteful. Just accept that others may think differently. If they find an adult partner sharing their preferences it is just a matter of tolerance to accept what they are doing between themselves.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 11:20 AM

Would you have had any complaint martin if the holocaust had been reserved for homosexuals?


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 11:38 AM

Why not just give unmarried couples the same legal rights as married couples? Seems fairly simple to me...

"Under UK law a person still needs the permission of their parents to get married or live away from home at the age of 16 (the age of consent)." Almost....it's different in Scotland. If you're under eighteen and you want to get married, but your parents say no.....just run away to Gretna :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 11:52 AM

Wolfgang,
       You haven't answered my question either.There is also a big difference between tolerance and acceptance. Homosexual couples have more rights in England than unmarried heterosexuals such as Penelope and myself, but you wont find us bitching and mewling for more 'rights'
       If homosexuals want to live together, fine, but please don't call it marriage!


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 02:33 PM

Ted which rights do homosexual couples have that you don't? And do they really outnumber your rights? I'm thinking laws regarding pensions, claiming social security, maternity/paternity leave, and employment laws regarding time off for spouses, and laws regarding inheritance taxes etc...they don't have any of those.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 03:11 PM

A few responses:

John P.: I don't care what people do in a bedroom. It's the sickos who have to flaunt their perversion in wide open daylight I object to. Obviously the term fudgepacker makes you uncommmmmmmmmmfortable.

Guest of 14 Apr 05 - 11:20 AM : Typical Jew-hater response that is ignorant on your part. comparing the murder of 6 million people to the plight of homosexual rights and an unnatural butt-fuck is really worth a good laugh at you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 03:33 PM

So you are unable to answer the question martin? Would you be indignant if the holocaust had been reserved for homosexuals.

And don't pull the jew hating crap just because you are unable to justify your bigotry whilst expecting others to tolerate you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 03:40 PM

[bleep - for antisocial behavior]I answered your question, guest moron. It's a totally stupid question completely irrelevant to the holocaust and genocide, you idiot.

and why are you a guest? Afraid to come out defending fags? go back to your dark and dank closet.

and denouncing perversion is hardly bigotry. You may think it is, but not subscribing to your perverted lifestyle is hardly bigotry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 03:45 PM

No martin you didn't and haven't answered my question. It is a simple yes or no. Should I ask you again?

Would you be indignant if the holocaust had been reserved for homosexuals?


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 03:52 PM

The US Census department enumerated something just over 1800 separate "rights of marriage" not too long ago. For the most part these were not "legal" rights, with any laws enforcing them, but were benefits having civil meaning that normally are available to married couples but not to unmarrieds. (The list did not include any rights to participate in any sacraments or rituals of any religion.)

Not too long ago the complaint from the churches was that civil law had no business "interfering" with the sacred ritual of marriage by requiring a license to be married. It was well established that the marriage license is only a recognition by civil law that the two parties to the marriage may act together, or may act separately for them both, and that contracts made by one are binding on them both. This has the legitimate purpose of protecting the rest of the community from entering into contracts or other entanglements without being aware that "the person has two heads."

It was left up to the churches to prescribe their own rituals and sacraments, and to assure that the married couple had the faith to live up to them. Whether you call it a marriage license or a license for civil union or any other name, the license really has virtually nothing to do with the requirements of any faith.

Perhaps a "solution" is simply to abolish the "Marriage License," and issue a "License for Civil Union" to all for purposes of contracts, debts, powers of attorney, inheritance, etc., and let the churches do their own thing under the old name of Marriage, according to each faith's own sacraments and beliefs - without a license if they choose to do so.

Note that this still doesn't grant "them you don't like" any freedom to get one of those licenses, until or unless the Legislature comes up with acceptable rules on eligibility. Most US States have such rules in place. It would perhaps prevent ONE group of religionists from attempting to force their belief on everyone of all (or no) religions.

And a note to Guest: The "holocaust" actually started off with a crusade against homosexuals, under the guise of "controlling undesirables." Some estimate that 60,000 or so "queers" were sent to forced labor camps under the suspensions of civil liberties immediately following Neuremburg 1939, and a majority of them died there. Quite a few didn't make it that far, because abuses based on a "presumption of immoral behavior" simply weren't prosecuted. The numbers from different sources vary quite a bit, but there is no question that they were significant. They also solved their unemployment problems by sending any one who refused any job offered (and the offers could be pretty ridiculous) to forced labor camps where "they didn't count" in the statistics. And a lot of them died there.

Although they appealed to "protecting religion" hand in hand with the protocol for "protection of the purity of the race," in fairly short order it became a crime (subject, without trial, to "rehabilitation" at hard labor) to cite any religious belief in objection to any actions by the "government." This excuse was used against those of the prevailing faiths as well as against jews. Apparently few lived long enough to improve their thinking, although there were some exceptions.

Or so I'm told.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 05:04 PM

Yes John, Himmler was responsible for the creation of the wonderfully tolerantly named 'Reich Central Office for Combatting Homosexuality and Abortion.' You are right, estimates of numbers vary, but their persecution was as systematic as that of the Jews and other unacceptable groups. Numberwise they are obviously going to be less, as there were less of them.

I find it very telling that martin is unable to answer whether he is out raged by their persecution. People who pick and choose their prejudices are undeserving of tolerance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 05:15 PM

Couple of questions for those of a homophobic persuasion....just curious! :0)

1. What evidence is there to show that homosexuality is unnatural?
2. If it is unnatural, how does this make it wrong?
3. Why waste time complaining about something that really doesn't affect you or anyone other than the individuals involved?
4. Why do so many homophobic people enjoy watching lesbian porn?

Anyway, i still think giving unmarried couples the same legal status as married ones is a good idea...


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 05:31 PM

Blissful you are right. The rewriting of Paragraph 175 in Germany which led to the arrests of gay men, only specified sex between two men was lewd? Women were omitted from this and hardly any details re lesbian persecution are found.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 05:35 PM

Why is that, i wonder? And another thing...why do so many straight guys get angry about gay guys? It's reducing the competition, no?


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 05:39 PM

I don't, Blisfful. throughout the ages, marriage is for men and women and has been accepted that way among people in literally every society. Why rewrite history? To destroy that institution for a perverted special interest group?

As far as wasting time, ask the person who started this thread.

No one is saying that being gay should be illegal and no one is saying, idiot Guest, that people should lead gays to gas chambers, so comparing today to the Nazis and the genocide they caused is again, stupid. totally stupid, like your question which is completely stupidly hypothetical and is weak justification for your position.

Answer me this, Blissful. Why do homophobic people do not watch gay male porn? could it have something to do with they are disgusted by it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 05:54 PM

" don't, Blisfful. throughout the ages, marriage is for men and women and has been accepted that way among people in literally every society. Why rewrite history? To destroy that institution for a perverted special interest group?"

I don't think giving unmarried couples legal recognition would destroy the institution of marriage...people would still be free to get married if they wanted to. I don't think same sex marriages would destroy the institution of marriage either, and i think the state should be able to perform them... but that's evidently not going to happen for a while at least not until true secularity of state is achieved. What i'm suggesting is a solution that would benifit many people, not just gays but also straight couples who don't want to marry for whatever reason.

"Why do homophobic people do not watch gay male porn? could it have something to do with they are disgusted by it? "

I don't know. Very probably...but why is gay male porn more disgusting than lesbian porn? Or, indeed,any porn...:0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 05:58 PM

I'll attempt to answer my own question.

Watching women with great beauty make love to each other is sensuous. Even women I believe will watch this as it is somewhat mysterious to them.

Watching two beach boy types sucking eack others dicks or futt-bucking !)each other is going to disgust just about everyone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 06:05 PM

Martin in 1940 homosexuals should not have been discriminated against? But in 2005 it is ok to discriminate against them and deny them the same rights as heterosexuals? Do you think they should have less rights than you?

Also how would gay marriages detract from the validity of heterosexual marriages. They currently have a success rate of 50%, so it's validity as a lasting ceremony is already blighted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Burke
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 06:40 PM

"I don't think giving unmarried couples legal recognition would destroy the institution of marriage... straight couples who don't want to marry for whatever reason"

I don't understand this. If the couple has legal recognition, in what way is that not marriage as we currently understand it? No is required now to have a religious ceremony.

jpk, are you advocating "if in the course of ordinary biological acts, they can beget offspring, then let them marry?" & if not, no marriage? That's kind of hard on post-menopausal women.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 06:47 PM

"I don't understand this. If the couple has legal recognition, in what way is that not marriage as we currently understand it?"

Well, it just means not having a civil or religious ceremony, not having to go through the expense and trouble of divorce if things don't work out (which they often don't)... and, as is pertinent to this discussion, it would mean there would be no barrier to homosexual couples having the same legal rights as married couples.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Burke
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 07:19 PM

I was addressing your reference to heterosexual couples. Not having a ceremony is not big deal. It's naive to think that only having a civil registration of some kind will avoid the trouble and expense of divorce. If 2 people have granted each other the mutual rights that have been mentioned in this thread, separation will involve trouble and expense. Mutual purchases (especially houses) need to be divided, responsibility for debts needs to be clarified.

This is why I often wonder why people live together for long periods of time without marrying. They seem to think separating would be easier in some way. It seems to me it seldom is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 07:23 PM

I mean the should be given legal recognition without the need for any kind of ceremony or registration.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 07:25 PM

There should be a 'couple' between the 'the' and the 'should' :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Burke
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 07:34 PM

If there's no ceremony or registration, what is this union for? How does a couple lay claim to the mutual rights that are desired in the 'civil union.'


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 09:28 PM

[bleep - for antisocial behavior]Guest, please get your had out of your ass, or that other's guy's ass.

Marriage is between a man and a woman. Deal with it.

Go start your own state or country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 12:15 AM

A few more facts...

• The Holocaust started with the persecution of Communists in the wake of the Reichstag fire. There were many other victims: Jews, of course, but the number also included gay men, Gypsies, Christian pacifists, Social Democrats, the mentally retarded, the physically disabled (especially people with CP), and even to a small extent young people who liked jazz (or what the Nazis called "niggerjazz"). It is not "Jew hating" to point out these other groups that were also singled out for persecution and death.

• Our pop culture bombards us with much more in-your-face heterosexuality than it does with homosexuality, so much so that most of us fail to take notice how much.

• For all of MG's concerns about us queers flaunting our lifestyle in his face, my own experience is that the vast majority of lesbians and gay men are indistinguishable from the rest of the population. Furthermore, there are many people who are identified as lesbians or gay men when in fact they are straight. This is especially true of men in the theater, dance, and certain other performing arts, who have many gay-like mannerisms regardless of their actual sexual orientation. And it is also true of the straight men dandies who are now called metrosexuals. It is even more true of women in traditionally masculine occupations, especially women in positions of political power. How many times have Golda Meir, Margaret Thatcher, and Hillary Clinton have been referred to as dykes? More than I can count!

• Ah, here's to killer! Homsexual and heterosexual are not absolutes, nor are they mutually exclusive. Most of us enjoy -- that's the right word! -- aspects of both, even though our orientation may be primarily one way or the other. And just maybe those people who protest the loudest about lesbians and gays flaunting their sexuality are the same people who have the most difficulty dealing with whatever homosexual feelings they have.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Peace
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 12:36 AM

I don't mean to sidetrack things here, but I notice there has been no mention of goats . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 12:38 AM

There are gay goats, you know...


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Crystal
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 04:28 AM

Has anyone read the paper about homosexual necrophillia amoung mallard ducks which won an ig-nobel prize?
There is a blicky on the ig-nobel thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 08:18 AM

If only because it is so vaguely known by many people, the fequently posted listings of "Famous Gays" may be a useful reference point now in this thread. I had the urge to just paste one in earlier, but fortunately or not I couldn't find one that would have been less than 30 or 40 screens on most viewers. (I thought about calling it "people who disagree with Martin," which would have been sort of crude, and I apologize for the thought.)

There are quite a few such lists on the net, and some of them are of rather questionable accuracy, but the one at the Famous Gays list at Wikipedia appears to be pretty well researched. There is a reasonable discussion of the significance of the listings, and numerous links to clarifying definitions and to additional information.

A first section of the list includes those who have "self confirmed" that they are homosexual or bisexual, or for whom historical evidence is sufficiently available to make reasonably probable determination. You will find at least two Popes, several Lords, a fistfull of current members of the US Congress, and an occasional mass murderer or serial killer (the latter in about the same proportions as on any similar list of "not gays.")

A second section of the listing includes those for whom there have been "probable indications" of homosexual or bisexual inclination, but for whom the determination is not positively known. It is notable that quite a number who commonly appear on lists of this sort are not listed here, indicating they've included only those where the evidence has significant credibility. There are links to biographical information for many of those on this list so that you can look at whether you agree with their inclusion.

There is also even a short third section of "those who once said they were gay but now say they were not." Not surprising – they're mostly recent "entertainment" figures.

While an attitude or a law that causes harm is a bad attitude or a bad law regardless of how many it harms, for some it may help to place the discussion in better context if they are aware of what sorts of persons are being discussed. Visit the link if you're so inclined, at your leisure.

Keep in mind that like most of us, the majority of persons affected by the attitudes being discussed here are not famous, so they're obviously not in any such list.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: harpgirl
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 09:50 AM

I guess Paul is the promiscuous type who isn't much interested in getting married!


MN State Sen. Paul Koering, a first-term Republican who had voted with conservatives seeking a constitutional ballot question banning same-sex marriage, revealed that he is gay. 4/15


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: harpgirl
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 09:57 AM

The Star story disappeared off my Buzzflash link after one reading so here's this:live like a liberal, vote like a conservative!

http


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: John P
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 10:20 AM

Marin, for all of human history we kept slaves. Why rewrite history? For all of human history we lynched people we didn't like. Why rewrite history? For all of human history, women were second class citizens who couldn't vote and whose husbands could beat them to death with impunity. Why rewrite history? For all of human history, it was OK to make Jews be the scapegoat for anything bad and kill them all. Why rewrite history? For all of human history, the local baron or warlord or whatever could grab any woman he wanted and rape her. Why rewrite history?

Answer this question, please (you, too, Ted): In what way is not a perversion for you to be interested in what other people are doing in bed? So interested, in fact, that you want there to be laws about it?

And don't say you're not interested in what they're doing in bed. As soon as you say anything at all about homosexuals and what they ought to be allowed to do, you are talking about what they do in bed. There is no other difference between them and other people.

OK, sorry folks, I know these questions when directed at Martin Gibson are just troll baiting. He's too far gone to respond in a rational manner. So please just take these questions as part of the general conversation, and take whatever asinine response Martin Gibson makes as entertainment.

John Peekstok


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: harpgirl
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 10:36 AM

Here's what Eric Rudolph, that "radical conservative" thinks about homosexuality:

``Along with abortion, another assault upon the integrity of American society is the concerted effort to legitimize the practice of homosexuality. Homosexuality is an aberrant sexual behavior, and as such I have complete sympathy and understanding for those who are suffering from this condition. Practiced by consenting adults within the confines of their own private lives, homosexuality is not a threat to society. Those consenting adults practicing this behavior in privacy should not be hassled by a society which respects the sanctity of private sexual life. But when the attempt is made to drag this practice out of the closet and into the public square in an ``in your face'' attempt to force society to accept and recognize this behavior as being just as legitimate and normal as the natural man/woman relationship, every effort should be made, including force if necessary, to halt this effort.''

``Any conscientious individual afflicted with homosexuality should acknowledge that a healthy society requires a model of sexual behavior to be held up and maintained without assault. Like other humans suffering from various disabilities homosexuals should not attempt to infect the rest of society with their particular illness.''



They gave him life....ironic....maybe he can stay straight in prison because he will be in the hole, most of the rest of his life!


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 10:44 AM

None of you have taken the blindest bit of notice of what I actually wrote, so it's time for me to abandon this thread.
                Flamenco, the true path (and dead butch)


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 11:29 AM

Homosexual couples have more rights in England than unmarried heterosexuals such as Penelope and myself, but you wont find us bitching and mewling for more.

I took notice of what you wrote and asked you what laws you are talking about and how do they outnumber the ones currently covering heterosexuals, that do not cover homosexuals. You didn't answer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 12:15 PM

John Peekstock, I really don't care what you and some other man do in bed together.

I really could care less. It's your perversion, not mine. I certainly do not feel like one of societies misfits apparently like you do.

The states and religions don't recognize it. Deal with it.

Harpgirl, Eric rudolph is not going to jail for his comments about homosexuality. He might also love his parents. He is being punished for the crime he committed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 12:37 PM

Martin there are lots of things I don't really care one way or the other about. Skiing, cabbage, and keeping tropical fish spring to mind. But I don't ridicule and insult those who do care. Ok so it's hard to have strong feelings about cabbage one way or the other.

But why do you get angry/ridicule/insult other peoples choices, if you do not care about them? They provoke a reaction in you, so you must care.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 12:59 PM

[bleep - for antisocial behavior]No, guest. It's you who cares. I just fart in your general direction.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: GUEST,harpgirl
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 01:37 PM

Well Martin, I've pretty much decided that you have chosen your persona just to get us old hippies into a more active stance regarding our convictions, but I still think your approach is antisocial.

At any rate, Eric Rudolph is a good example of the extreme psychotic position of conservative views about such issues as abortion and homosexuality, just as folk hero (tongue in cheek) Ted Kaczynski is an example of the extreme psychotic position of radical luddites.      

And please spare me the colorful sexual insults. I'm not that creative doing the dozens, and I have trouble thinking up good retorts.

l,h


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 03:50 PM

After all of the dope, I think you have trouble thinking, period.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: GUEST,Jaze
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 05:26 PM

What Janice in NJ said. So very true.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 05:30 PM

What? that the Sopranos are gay?


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: John P
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 10:23 PM

Martin,
You seem to think you know anything at all about my sexual orientation. Don't you ever get tired of displaying your ignorance?

JP


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: harpgirl
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 12:13 AM

MG:

I scorn you, scurvy companion. What, you poor, base, rascally, cheating, lack-linen mate! Away, you moldy rogue, away!


At any rate, you're so stupid you think Taco Bell is a mexican telephone company. The last time you felt a breast was in a KFC bucket!

love,harpgirl


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: harpgirl
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 12:25 AM

BTW, Martin...did you ever wonder what life would be like if you'd had enough oxygen at birth?
l,h


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: GUEST,Alasdair
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 02:51 AM

Ageing Bohemian - your proposal only works if religious marriage carries no legal or civil implications relating to the relationship. I could fully sign up to a system in which religious marriage ceremonies were reserved for true believers if civil marriage were the only way in which couples could gain legal recognition of their partnership.

Al


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay marriage, a proposal (pun intended)
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 05:27 AM

Alasdair -

What is proposed is, in fact, how it works in most states. To obtain the "civil/legal benefits of union" you get a marriage license and have a suitable witness attest that both parties to the union have agreed to the civil terms of the agreement. In most cases the person authenticating the civil contract does so by signing off on the license and returning it to the civil office that issued the license.

The execution of the license gets you the civil status of "married." In most states, the licensed civil contract is the only way to obtain these civil (legal) benefits, although some states may recognize a "common law marriage" - if you act married you are, in matters of civil law.

To observe and make vows in accordance with ones faith, it is permitted that the agreement to be married may be made in the presence of appropriate representatives of one's faith, and whatever rituals prescribed by one's belief may be observed. By doing so one enters into "holy matrimony."

For the state to prescribe any religious ritual associated with the marriage license would be a violation of the First Amendment to the Constitution, since it would amount to establishing a religious rule. The license only makes you legally obligated to fulfill a civil contract, and makes it a public record so that the rest of the civil community can know your legal status in the community.

In principle, the state could not object if you chose to observe the sacraments of your faith, by entering into a "sacred marriage" without benefit of the civil contract. Unfortunately, prior attempts to insert religious doctrine in civil law have made cohabitation and other "activities" associated with it illegal if done without the license in many places.

To assert that a "civil license" is required to observe a sacrament of one's faith is an insult to my faith. Apparently some aren't so faithful.

John


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