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BS: Bobert's Race Thread

Bobert 13 Apr 05 - 10:27 PM
John Hardly 13 Apr 05 - 10:36 PM
GUEST,TIA 13 Apr 05 - 10:50 PM
beardedbruce 13 Apr 05 - 10:54 PM
Bobert 13 Apr 05 - 11:01 PM
GUEST,WYS 13 Apr 05 - 11:11 PM
Bobert 13 Apr 05 - 11:12 PM
jacqui.c 13 Apr 05 - 11:14 PM
Bobert 13 Apr 05 - 11:16 PM
Bobert 13 Apr 05 - 11:21 PM
GUEST,WYS 13 Apr 05 - 11:22 PM
GUEST 13 Apr 05 - 11:33 PM
GUEST,Azizi 13 Apr 05 - 11:34 PM
Bobert 14 Apr 05 - 12:12 AM
dianavan 14 Apr 05 - 12:54 AM
Bobert 14 Apr 05 - 07:02 AM
John MacKenzie 14 Apr 05 - 07:55 AM
Bobert 14 Apr 05 - 08:32 AM
GUEST,WYS 14 Apr 05 - 09:56 AM
John Hardly 14 Apr 05 - 10:26 AM
GUEST,WYS 14 Apr 05 - 10:43 AM
Susu's Hubby 14 Apr 05 - 12:15 PM
robomatic 14 Apr 05 - 12:49 PM
John MacKenzie 14 Apr 05 - 12:59 PM
susu 14 Apr 05 - 02:02 PM
John MacKenzie 14 Apr 05 - 02:36 PM
Once Famous 14 Apr 05 - 03:01 PM
Azizi 14 Apr 05 - 03:43 PM
Once Famous 14 Apr 05 - 03:47 PM
Azizi 14 Apr 05 - 04:07 PM
Bobert 14 Apr 05 - 04:58 PM
John Hardly 14 Apr 05 - 05:12 PM
robomatic 14 Apr 05 - 05:35 PM
Once Famous 14 Apr 05 - 05:43 PM
SINSULL 14 Apr 05 - 06:20 PM
Burke 14 Apr 05 - 07:10 PM
PoppaGator 14 Apr 05 - 07:17 PM
Once Famous 14 Apr 05 - 09:33 PM
harpgirl 14 Apr 05 - 09:41 PM
harpgirl 14 Apr 05 - 10:00 PM
Bobert 14 Apr 05 - 10:09 PM
SINSULL 14 Apr 05 - 10:56 PM
dianavan 15 Apr 05 - 01:23 AM
Bobert 15 Apr 05 - 07:53 AM
Once Famous 15 Apr 05 - 12:24 PM
wysiwyg 15 Apr 05 - 01:09 PM
CarolC 15 Apr 05 - 02:01 PM
Azizi 15 Apr 05 - 02:43 PM
Once Famous 15 Apr 05 - 03:58 PM
robomatic 15 Apr 05 - 05:20 PM
Once Famous 15 Apr 05 - 05:25 PM
CarolC 15 Apr 05 - 05:33 PM
dianavan 15 Apr 05 - 10:58 PM
John Hardly 16 Apr 05 - 08:05 AM
wysiwyg 16 Apr 05 - 08:36 AM
GUEST,CarolC 16 Apr 05 - 01:12 PM
Bobert 16 Apr 05 - 08:12 PM
wysiwyg 16 Apr 05 - 09:37 PM
CarolC 17 Apr 05 - 01:12 AM
CarolC 17 Apr 05 - 01:23 AM
wysiwyg 17 Apr 05 - 09:15 AM
GUEST,CarolC 17 Apr 05 - 12:32 PM
CarolC 17 Apr 05 - 12:54 PM
GUEST,NASCAR Foe 17 Apr 05 - 01:04 PM
wysiwyg 17 Apr 05 - 03:15 PM
Once Famous 17 Apr 05 - 04:30 PM
Once Famous 17 Apr 05 - 04:31 PM
Bobert 17 Apr 05 - 07:03 PM
mg 17 Apr 05 - 07:09 PM
Bobert 17 Apr 05 - 07:17 PM
wysiwyg 17 Apr 05 - 07:20 PM
Bobert 17 Apr 05 - 07:24 PM
CarolC 17 Apr 05 - 09:58 PM
Once Famous 17 Apr 05 - 10:31 PM
CarolC 17 Apr 05 - 10:53 PM
Once Famous 17 Apr 05 - 11:00 PM
CarolC 17 Apr 05 - 11:03 PM
wysiwyg 17 Apr 05 - 11:09 PM
Bobert 17 Apr 05 - 11:18 PM
dianavan 18 Apr 05 - 12:26 AM
Bobert 18 Apr 05 - 07:28 AM
GUEST,Koonta 18 Apr 05 - 08:14 AM
beardedbruce 18 Apr 05 - 11:24 AM
Once Famous 18 Apr 05 - 03:14 PM
Bobert 18 Apr 05 - 05:46 PM
dianavan 19 Apr 05 - 12:50 AM
Azizi 19 Apr 05 - 02:04 AM
Azizi 19 Apr 05 - 02:14 AM
Azizi 19 Apr 05 - 02:19 AM
dianavan 19 Apr 05 - 03:46 AM
Bobert 19 Apr 05 - 07:29 AM
Azizi 19 Apr 05 - 07:59 AM
Azizi 19 Apr 05 - 08:29 AM
Azizi 19 Apr 05 - 08:51 AM
Bobert 19 Apr 05 - 07:51 PM
Once Famous 19 Apr 05 - 09:24 PM
dianavan 19 Apr 05 - 11:59 PM
GUEST 20 Apr 05 - 06:23 PM
GUEST,Dipthong 20 Apr 05 - 06:58 PM
GUEST,Dipthong 20 Apr 05 - 07:00 PM
beardedbruce 20 Apr 05 - 08:24 PM
GUEST,Spring Brucesteen 20 Apr 05 - 08:47 PM
Once Famous 20 Apr 05 - 08:53 PM
beardedbruce 20 Apr 05 - 11:27 PM
GUEST, Ebbie 21 Apr 05 - 01:03 AM
mg 21 Apr 05 - 12:26 PM
Ebbie 21 Apr 05 - 01:00 PM
GUEST,PoppaGator 21 Apr 05 - 02:22 PM
Bobert 21 Apr 05 - 08:01 PM
Kaleea 21 Apr 05 - 08:06 PM
Azizi 21 Apr 05 - 08:18 PM
Azizi 21 Apr 05 - 08:20 PM
GUEST 21 Apr 05 - 08:53 PM
Bobert 21 Apr 05 - 09:12 PM
dianavan 21 Apr 05 - 09:15 PM
Once Famous 21 Apr 05 - 10:32 PM
Bobert 21 Apr 05 - 10:43 PM
Once Famous 21 Apr 05 - 11:00 PM
Bobert 21 Apr 05 - 11:15 PM
GUEST,guess who again 22 Apr 05 - 12:00 AM
dianavan 22 Apr 05 - 12:56 AM
Once Famous 22 Apr 05 - 03:49 PM
Once Famous 22 Apr 05 - 03:51 PM
Bobert 22 Apr 05 - 08:40 PM
GUEST,Koonta 28 Apr 05 - 11:57 PM
Azizi 29 Apr 05 - 07:36 AM
Azizi 29 Apr 05 - 07:48 AM
Azizi 29 Apr 05 - 10:17 AM
GUEST,CarolC 29 Apr 05 - 02:03 PM
Bobert 29 Apr 05 - 07:33 PM
beardedbruce 30 Apr 05 - 03:27 AM
SharonA 30 Apr 05 - 02:36 PM
Bobert 30 Apr 05 - 08:11 PM

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Subject: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 10:27 PM

Well, well, well...

Seems that things goin' left over in the "offensive" thread so I figured I'd jus' set me up a big ol' tent here and camp out...

Yeah, ol' John Hardly accused ol' me o' being some kinda self appointercated white African American 'cause the way I talk an' then I tried to explain my dialection an' then folks said this and folks said that an' so I figgured that I might as well just ley it all hang out...

First of all, in case folks got their history from Rush Limbaugh 'er George Bush 'er George Wallace, black peole din't exactly sign on to be stuffed into boats and be brougth to the New World to be slaves. No, weren't like that at all... Ain't none volunteered... Lets get that straight from the jump... That's like, ahhhh, none... And who was doing this stuff? Well, sure ytou can find a few black people who profited from stealing other black people but this weren't the norm but the rare exception... The folks that were doing this were white folks...

Fast forward to Lincoln's proclaimation... Hey, what was that all about? Ya got nuthin, yer gonna get nuthin' but yer free... What a crock! And who did this. A white guy, that's who!

Then it was 90 years of Jim Crow and the KKK, the John Birchers, the Minutemen, ect, etc, etc..... of terrorism... Yeah, terrorism practiced against black folks, none of whom had anything to do with why they were in the "New World"...

And "New World" my butt.... It wasn't like "new world" excewt to whom?Well, I'll tell ya. White people. For the indiginous folks the only thing new was getting killed and robbed by, ahhhhhh, white people...

Now we have a bunch of self rightous white people, some of whom post here in Mudville, saying that stuff like Affirmative Action" is discriminating against them? And they support an administration that takes funding away from nutritional programs and educational programs and medical programs that help black people, who were dumped along the side of the road officially in 1865 and unofficially when they were rounded up in 1619??? Like what's that all about???

So now because I happen to stand up and say "Hey, what's this all about" am accused of being the resident "self appointed white African American"???

First, I am ashamed of what white folks have done in what now comprises the United States. They have killed off a lot of non white people for land. And look what they have done to the native Americans... Put them in concentartion camps (reservations) where poverty is the norm rather than the exception... And look what white folks have done to the the kids and grandkids of slaves... Stuck them in concentration camps (housing projects)...

Second, what white folks owe non whites, given the great wealth creted in the the "United States" are repairations.... And lots of them since it has been white folks who have broken families, and bodies, and minds, and spirits and thrust non white folks into concentration camps... Yeah, that's exactly what white America OWES black and indiginous folks. And OWES these folks big time!!! Firget Affirmative Action... That ain't even the shadow of the tip of the iceburg when it come to what black and indigibnous folks have given up, either in land, resorces or labor, to create the wealth that white folks enjoy! Not even the mist over the shadow of the tip of the iceburg!!!!....

Third, yes, I am ashamed to be white because it means that every non white I meet I have to go thru the Dance of the Dieing Duck... I don't enjoy having to to that but for white folks like me it is something that we do... Yeah, it is embaressin'... But we do it. And why? Well, I'll tell ya why... Because there are a lot of white folks out there- I mean a lot- who continue to stack the deck against America *ever* gettin' it's stuff together and doing the right thing to correct it's sins... The Bible says "sin no more" yet white America is so caught up in sin that it is sinning to cover its past sins....

So, no, I ain't no self appointed white African American... But I'm a Christain and Jesus wouldn't like what white folks is doing, lots of them in His name... No, rather than think myself some appointed *whatever* I'd rather just think myself a follower of Christ... If that pisses off some folks then so be it but Jesus wouldn't have stood for what white folks have been doing for way too long...

Peace

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: John Hardly
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 10:36 PM

"Yeah, ol' John Hardly accused ol' me o' being some kinda self appointercated white African American 'cause the way I talk"

No. I did not. Not on the basis of the way you talk.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 10:50 PM

Hey Bobert - Amen Brother.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 10:54 PM

Sonnet 27/09/04 On the Opening of NMAI CMXXXIII

I listen to the songs of life, as told
By dark-eyed beauties, hair the color of
True wisdom: Quiet words that power hold
To speak of family, work; hopes, tears, and love.
I see the flash of fire in eyes, that tell
Of old injustice, but a smile for all.
What have we done, to past redeem, or spell
Out what we owe for what greed let befall?
I feel the beat of drums: Power to move
Both feet and hearts. What will the future show?
How can this nation honest fairness prove
Unless we make amends for what we know?
We have no reason, now, to debt deny:
How will our conscience to this call reply?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 11:01 PM

Thanks, TIA... I kinda thought when I hut the "submit" clicker that I was sealin' my fate in Mudville... Like I was gonna be lynched... And I know what it's like to be lynched 'round this joint...

I would hope that as folks bomb around this thread that folks will strip away all the rationalizations and mythologies as to how we exactly got here...

This discussion is way over due...

I know why it can't take place in George Bush's governemnt but it doesn't prevent the citizenry from going ahead without him otr his cohorts... And I could say the same for the Clintonites...

Thanks again, TIA...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: GUEST,WYS
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 11:11 PM

:~(

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 11:12 PM

Right on, beardedbruce, right on... Yeah, *how* will our conscience reply? That's what I'm talkin' 'bout... It's called "repairations"... The root word is "repair"....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: jacqui.c
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 11:14 PM

Bobert - those that have got to know you take you for what you are and, speaking for myself, I reckon you're a pretty nice guy with a good way of communicating.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 11:16 PM

Sorry, WYSusan.... The Devil done got in me an' made me do it... Jus' funnin' but I knew that I was gonna get a little quiet time in WYSusan's "Quiet Corner" and, hey, I did the crime so, ahhhhh, how much time do I got.... An' do you still give 5 minute bathroom breaks every hour????

(Yer humbled) Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 11:21 PM

Well gol danged, jacqui, I love's ya fir sayin' that.. If Kendall ever goes thur a little mid life crisis 'bout the same time that the P-Vine has the same little situation then....

Ignore this ol' fool...

Just nice readin' that folks ain't pokin' pins in Bobert voodoo dolls...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: GUEST,WYS
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 11:22 PM

I LOVE you guys! Yer BOTH better than this! Take my word for it! Call yerselves Christians. Huh, SHOW me that!

You miserable dopes! Can't you even see you are on the same damn SIDE? Don't you know the first thing racism does is it sets the people who agree, against each other, to distract them from noticing from the bad things being done to the folk about to be shit on? I could smack you both with a wet, I dunno what-- a wet cat!

"Humbled," my ass! Where's that damn cat. It will be a FERAL one from Wis-f*cking-sconsin! It will wish it had been shot!

~Disgusted


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 11:33 PM

In the "Why do you offend so easily" thread John Hardly called Bobert a White African American.

I repeat my response to that comment:

"For the record: Bobert is way cool with me. He and P-vine are my friends.

Just because a person wasn't born Black doesn't mean he or she can't be accepted by Black people as for real, positive people.

I don't take offense to anything Bobert has said or the way he has said it.

I'm not even sure what the heck you are talking about John.

I'm sure that Bobert can speak for himself. But I will say that if something Bobert said or the way he said it is a bit much for you, then that's on you [which you already know]. "

-snip-

John also took exception to Bobert's statement that he is comfortable hanging with Black people. He wrote:

"To say I'm "comfy" hanging out with blacks would imply a simplicity that is not there. Blacks are much too broad a group for one to assume comfort or discomfort with. (Wasn't it King who said that the goal was to judge on character, not skin color?). So, what? ..comfort with the poor innercity black? ...the affluent suburbanite black?"
-snip-

John then asked "What is your inference about the people to whom he refers when Bobert says he's "comfy" hanging out with black folk?"

I believed that that question was directed to me, and I answered:

"If a White person says that he or she is comfortable hanging out with Black people that does not mean he or she is patronizing Black people or lumping all Black people together into one homogeneous group.

I'm an African American who hangs out on Mudcat and there doesn't appear to be any other acknowledged African American who post here YET.

I believe that the overwhelming majority of 'Catters are White and
I'm comfortable here. Does that mean that I think that all 'Catters are the same? Does it mean that I think that all White people are the same?

No to both questions.

Maybe your definition of comfort means that the group has to be homogeneous. That's not my definition."

-snip-

I have PMed Bobert and told him that I have his back regarding this issue.

This does not mean that I am in total agreement with everything he has said in his first post of this thread or anything he will say in the future. For instance, I believe that a number of African ethnic groups where extensively involved over a great deal of time in the African chattel slavery. There were also some Black people who owned slaves.

Be that as it may, I totally agree with Bobert that he is comfortable with Black people. I feel that this statement is true for Bobert and and at least a few other Mudcatters who I have conversed with.

Why? Because I believe them when they say that they paid their "dues". These dues were paid in actions on behalf of Black people during Civil Rights days, with work in African American communities, and otherwise.

And as far as I'm concerned, actions speak louder than words.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: GUEST,Azizi
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 11:34 PM

That last post was mine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 12:12 AM

I would love to bridge the gap, WYSusan, with John... I don't hear John sayin' the same things I am sayin'. I wish I did but I don't... I don't wnat to sound too generalizin' but it seems that John doesn't see any reason why white America owes anything to black America... Hey, that is one long bridge to build...

I believe that white America has screwed black folks and indiginous folks and has profited greatly from the screwin' an' it time to pay the fiddler...

Now if John and I were so closely alligned in out thinking then I would think that John would step to the plate and say, "Hey, maybe Bobert's right on this one. Heck, he was due since he has been wrong on everything else. But he's right"

But I don't hear that???

And I don't hear that from white America???

The blame always comes down to the victims...

"Yeah, if "these" people want to get anywhere "they" are gonna have to pull "themselves" up by "their" bootstraps...

Like, ahhhhhhm "they" got any bootstraps???

(Two more hours in WYSusan's "quiet corner", Bobert...)

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 12:54 AM

I grew up believing that 'God loved all the little children." When I found out that there was racial discrimination, my world shattered. I cried and then I raged against my folks because it seemed that they had lied to me. When it finally calmed down, my mother urged me not to carry the weight of the world on my shoulders...

Nasty bit, racism.

I, too, am comfortable with people from other cultures and a rainbow of colours. Not because I associate with a particular group but because I associate with many different individuals and many different groups of people. When it all comes down, our similarities outweigh our differences.

I have three God-children all from different sets of parents. They range in colour from Namibian Black to Caribbean Cinnamon. I am also visited regularly by three other kids (young adults), all unrelated, that I have known since they were toddlers. None are Afro-American - all are light brown. They are more than comfortable with me and I can assure you that my heart would break if they stopped visiting me because of my colour. We have far more in common than the guys down the street(from Fiji)that call them sisters and brothers.

The colour of your skin means nothing to me. Its who you are to me that counts.

...and Bobert, at least, is a man that can be trusted. He said he would send me some climbing hydrangea and he did! What colour are you anyway? I always suspected that you were sort of pinkish with straight white hair but I never held it against you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 07:02 AM

Oh gosh, d, I forgot about them beans I dent you... Ahhhh, hate to trell ya but they aren't hydrangeas but hyacinths and are annuals but, hey, they climb...

Ahhhhh, not too pink. Ma that is... Kinda pale but you go the hair absolutley right and gettin' whiter with every day I knock heads here in Mudburg... BTW, fir an accuratness of my paleness you can check out my "pic" in the photo section (compliments to Bill D...).

Yo, WYSusan, can I get up now. I gotta tinkle...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 07:55 AM

Bobert you're OK from where I sit over here in the UK. You don't normally get upset by what people post, and I wonder why this one got through. You can't feel the guilt for a whole nations wrongdoing, and you're doing what you think is right to make up for perceived wrongs. You can't however atone for all the sins of all the forebears of the US of A. What I do is take folks as they come whatever colour, and if I end up not liking them I don't let it worry me if they happen to have a different skin colour. It's a bit like kids, you get people who say "I love kids", well I defy you to love all kids as some of them are totally unlovable. I don't feel guilty because some people reckon all kids are lovely; that's crap!!
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 08:32 AM

Couldn't agree with you more about kids, Giok! That's the best part about havin' grandkids... You can sent the little monsters back home when you've had 'nuff o' them...

As fir color, or lack there of, I agree wid ya. I take 'um as they come and, sniff, I must admit that I like most people and while I'm in the confessional mode... I wasn't really all that riled up by what John said and prolly shouldn't have said nuthin' at all that had anything to do with him but just started the thread anyway for the sake of discussion...

Sorry, John...

Now can I go pee, WYSusan?

Pleeeze...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: GUEST,WYS
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 09:56 AM

OK, Bobert.

Hey Bobert, and Hey John Hardly,

Do you both by any chance agree that racism sucks, that it has hurt a lot of people, and that it would be great to get rid of it?

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: John Hardly
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 10:26 AM

Susan,

Racism more than "sucks". It is evil. But it is also insidious -- and the "getting rid of" part is the sticky part.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: GUEST,WYS
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 10:43 AM

JH,

Can we please take this in tiny baby steps. Would you agree with my statement? Perhaps it does not go far enough, or perhaps the words are not quite yours. But is it a statement you can basically agree with?

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 12:15 PM

This thread has the makings of something really ugly so let's swing it to what the issue really is.

I think that the issue really has to do with where we are as a country as opposed to where we were and how far we need to go from this point on.

I think that the country as a whole is on the right track as far as race relations are concerned and is there a lot of room for improvement? Of course there is. But let me throw out a question.

Does the continued outcry for racial equality really help or hinder the forward movement? Some are of the opinion that the squeaky wheel gets the grease. This is true for a lot of instances and is what eventually put the spark under the CR and equality movement. But some others are of the opinion that if people would stop bringing extreme cases to the forefront as everyday happenings then true racial equality has the chance to exceed even present levels.

This goes for reparations as well. Why would somebody be OK with the thought that they are going to be punished and economically hit for something that was done by their great grandparents or gg grandparents or even ggg grandparents. They didn't ask to be born white, black, mexican, or asian. So why should they be asked to be responsible for actions of their predecessors? The courts have ruled time and time again about the same reasoning used in cases where war spoiles collected by victorious troops in Germany and Japan where the families of the owners of the original items have sued to be somehow compensated for the losses of the property of their familial predecessors. The courts have ruled that even though the losses were indeed unfortunate, the current owners of the property were not responsible for any monetary reparation for the disputed property because of the fact that it wasn't them who directly was responsible for their loss in the first place.

The slavery era was one of if not the darkest moment in US history. But for people to keep that era in the forefront and keep beating the same drum, IMO, is turning more people off than keeping the continued struggle of gaining even more ground and truly being thought of as equals.


Hubby


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 12:49 PM

I don't see anything wrong with what Bobert says or how he says it. But he doesn't speak for black people. He is - maybe - trying to speak, sorta like he thinks some black people speak. I am not clear as to whether the written accent is meant to be simply his own 'brand' or is to be identified with 'black' speech. He doesn't seem in a hurry to make this clear here.

If I were to venture a guess, I'd say Bobert is trying to speak in his distinctive manner, kinda like the aw-shucks barndance caller or the simple country preacher, Andy Griffith style, with the stamp of the common man but in reality a mind sharp as a heading axe or a two-bit carny con. It can be fun if you keep your hand on your wallet.

I volunteered at a radio station where one of the R&B DJ's liked to speak in his own kind of special 'ergot' which gave the strong impression that he was a white dude trying to sound black. I never tried to plumb the depths of this with him and the first few times I listened to his show I didn't mind it, but over time it began to creep me out.

There is nothing wrong with John Hardly's sentiments either. He's entitled to make observations on his fellow thread-folk. There is a certain ambiguity and imprecision in a lot of Bobert's 'folksy' ways which call this forth.

I've lived with, and worked with, black folk. That gives me no right whatsoever to feel that I speak for black folk. What it does give me is some real life experience which may (or may not) be useful.

As for reparations, I noticed that Bobert made a big deal on the word without getting specific as to cold hard cash. In the sense that the descendants of slavery deserve some special acknowledgement, I don't disagree, so long as it is truly helpful.

I think The Civil War counts for a lot.

As for affirmative action, I was too young to be a political supporter of The Great Society Programs, but I 'would have' been in favor of them. The question now is what good have they done and what steps are to be taken in the light of present knowledge. Yesterday's solutions are not those of today.

If there are eventually reparations offered from the non-involved to the distantly related, I'm going to be very interested in filing a claim against the Egyptians with the World Court.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 12:59 PM

You sayin' Ol' Hill Billy Bobert's gotten a disease?
Ergot
Giok ¦¬]


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: susu
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 02:02 PM

Okay, here are some points I didn't see mentioned.
1) Not all black people are here as a result of slavery.
2) Not all white people owned slaves, some even disagreed with slavery. Go figure.
3) Some white people in this country were not here during the time there were slaves.
4) Not all slaves were black, look at the Chinese who built the railroads and were enslaved in the west.
5) There were some black people who actually sold family members into slavery.
6) Some slaves, while not originally here of their own free will, when set free, chose to stay with the family they served.

Yes, what some people in the past did was deplorable, but the thought that reparations will make amends is ludicrous. How would you propose that someone prove who are true descendants of slaves? And why should anyone be made to pay for the mistakes of their forefathers? If you were a descendant of a murderer, should you be punished, being made to pay restitution damages to their family (families)? No. This is no different. My family did not come to this country until after the civil war, so why should I have to pay for the sins that are not even a part of my family's history? Justify that Bobert!


http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=95001074

http://overlawyered.com/archives/01/sept1.html#0906c


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 02:36 PM

Oh dear! I hear the sound of a can of worms opening.
G..


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 03:01 PM

bobert's folksy dialect is totally phony, contrived, and strained.

I completely disrespect him for it because it seems about as natural as sodium benzoate.

Behind the Andy Griffith is a cunning and scheming radical.


susu's hubby had a lot of realistic things to say above on this.

Now, I have a serious question for Azizi, who's posts I like to read and get her perspective on things. WHY are you the only Afro-American on Mudcat? Why is there none others here?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 03:43 PM

Hello Martin.

Thanks for the compliment.

Let me clarify that I think that there may indeed be other African Americans who have posted on Mudcat as Guests...but it certainly appears as though I'm the only 'acknowledged' African American who regularly posts here.

I'd love to know why...

I know that I encouraged an African American girlfriend to join Mudcat. She lurked for a while and she posted a couple of times. But she told me that the Darkie Days thread turned her off..and said she was through..

If people would pardon my saying so, Mudcat is not the most aesthetically appealing website..and if people are unfamiliar with text based discussion forums and aren't knowledgeable about British folk music the music threads are rather daunting to get through.

The first time I came to this site, I didn't get it..It took me two years coming back and forth a couple of times before I got Internet savy enough to figure out what it's all about. I finally figured out that 'threads' were like conversations that you could join..or you could check out the subjects of older threads and re-start the conversation again..or you could introduce a new subject that you are interested in and others might also be interested in.

I KNOW that I not the only African American who is interested in engaging in intellectual exchanges..Or witty funny exchanges, or the dozens or...well you get my drift...

And more and more Black people have home computers..so that can't be it...

Bottom line, I think this is a matter of letting people know about Mudcat.

I'm tellin other people I know and I have a hyperlink on my website Cocojams..not that very many people know about that either.

???? so who knows????


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 03:47 PM

Thanks for your reply, azizy.

Yeah, the Brit music scene is about as dauunting as their humor. At least that mouth full of marbles accent is not heard in a text format.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 04:07 PM

You're welcome Martin.

Well that multi-faceted American folk music scene is kinda daunting too.

But if people take the time, IMO Mudcat can be well worth it..

I've certainly learned alot since I've been here.

And I've met some interesting people, yourself included.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 04:58 PM

Hey, are we havin' any fun yet? Didn't think so...

This is a tough conversationt but a conversation that none-the-less is way overdue in Anerica...

First of all, everyone who thinks that I try to sound black, raise yer hands. (Hmmmmmmm? That's a fair amount there, Bobert) Hey, Iz tried to explainerate this a couple times and ain't gettin' nowhere with it so I'll just go on record of sayin' " I ain't trying to sound like nobody but me!" **There, that is my official statement on the subject!!!** PERIOD!!! Don't think so, PM anyone who knows me personally an' they'll tell ya that I talk jus' 'bout the way I write... If any of you have a particular psycholgical need to think I'm jus' tryin' to put somethin' over here in Mudville then please fell free to nurture that need, take two Tylenol's and talk to a good counseler... Lotta poly-morphorse-perverse-guilt going 'round these days in Mudville...

Now as fir "repairations"... Yeah it's easy for someone to say, hey, I ain't responsible fir nothin' that grandaddy did... But lets look at it another way... Much of the wealth this country enjoys come from the labors of those who came before us and a disporportionate amount of the infastrccture upon which todays wealth is enjoyed was built by black folks??? Now fast forward and we still find a disporportionate number of balck folks living in poverty... Hmmmmmm? Now, I'm not gonna lay out a plan for repairation but would like for folks who have been the first to say "I ain't tesponsible fir what grand daddy did" to at least give their position on the issue a rethinkeratin'...

Niff fir now, I'm spoded to be out playin' with Mr. shovel...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: John Hardly
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 05:12 PM

and I might as well link this here too, since this seems not to be limited to one thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 05:35 PM

You sayin' Ol' Hill Billy Bobert's gotten a disease?
Ergot
Giok ¦¬]


cogito, ergo 'ergot' argot!

My mistake!

'robo'


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 05:43 PM

bobert, I'm not saying that you write "black." Just with an air of snobbish and forced folksiness.

If that is indeed the way you talk, you should be doing commercials for middle class America or be the narrator for a show like Desperate Housewives.

If this is the way you always write, I would suggest that you take a writing course in your local community college and learn how to fucking spell and use punctuation. You are not coming across as Mark Twain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: SINSULL
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 06:20 PM

Bobert,
My observations:
Slavery destroyed black families, forced them into a matriarchal hierarchy, and black men (in general) never recovered.
Fast forward:
While other racial groups can assimilate if they choose into a white society by learning the customs, the language, whatever, blacks stand out because they are black. Racism whether based on race or religion will always exist because there will always be a disenfranchised group that needs a scapegoat.
Discrimination against blacks exists in housing, employment, education. I have seen it first hand and it has nothing to do with credentials, qualifications, etc. Behind their backs even the black executive is referred to as the "schwartzer" by other executives. Sad and ugly but true.
I worked for one company that routinely hired based on capability and experience. Most of the management happened to be black - strong, aggressive business men who attracted other strong aggressive black businessmen. Funny but both the white and the black administrative staff resented them. Go figure.

Martin - this is one of those times when your enforced distancing from in-person meetings has led you astray. Bobert is genuine. His "voice" is consistent. A "cunning scheming radical???? Please explain.

There is a strong probability that Jesus was black or at least dark skinned. A black Jew - wonder how he would fare in Hometown USA.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Burke
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 07:10 PM

"every non white I meet I have to go thru the Dance of the Dieing Duck"

I have never heard this expression & really do not understand what you mean by it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: PoppaGator
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 07:17 PM

I agree wholeheartedly with all of Bobert's historical analysis. It is undeniable that slave labor, as well as the underpaid labor of emancipated blacks (and also, perhaps to a lesser extent, that of various similarly exploited immigrant groups), created much of the USA's infrastructure.

On the other hand, I can't go along with any reparations proposal that I've yet seen, or any such proposal that I can imagine:

1) WHO PAYS:

If there were a way to make it work, perhaps it would be fair to collect from those white folks who (a) are wealthy, and (b) whose personal wealth can be more-or-less-directly attributed to exploitation of black folks. But really, how could that possibly work?

Please don't look at me ~ I'm not in desperate poverty, but I'm living from paycheck to paycheck, as did my parents, and none of my grandparents were born in the US and therefore were not here until well after the abolition of slavery. None of their families ever profited from the slave trade, either, by the way: all of 'em were simple peasant farmers before they sailed across the sea ~ sharecroppers, basically.

Three of the four grandparents, in fact, came from a country colonized by Britain, where many generations of their ancestors were forbidden to learn to read, to own property, to decide which crops they might grow to feed themselves, or to practice their religion. Not at all unlike African slaves in America, when you think about it ~ except that, while they had the supposed "dignity" of freedom from literal enslavement, they also had to face the reality that no one controlling the means of survival cared if they lived or died, since they were not the bosses' "property." And this is not ancient history; these conditions prevailed well into the mid-19th century, just about as long as slavery existed in the American South.

2) WHO GETS PAID?

In real-life practical terms, I'm very skeptical that fully equal shares of any "reparations" fund would ever find their way to the folks most in need and most deserving. The usual crowd of hustlers and politically connected hotshots would immediately be filing papers to prove that they're 1/32 African (or whatever the crtierion might be), lining up to "administer" the program (i.e., rake a nice hefty percentage off the top), and/or dreaming up their own original scams to exploit the guilt and good intentions of others.

Back in the 1960s, I was naive enough to think that when black folks began to vote and to put some of their own people into elective office, the new officeholders would be as virtuous and idealistic as Dr. Martin Luther King. Boy, was I ever wrong! Here in Louisiana, anyway, the new breed of African-American politicians are every bit as corrupt as their white predecessors, from whom they learned whole bagsful of dirty tricks.

I'm not saying today's black politicians are any worse than whites ~ quite the contrary: one bunch of crooks is just as bad as the other. (Of course, there are also a variety of good and half-decent ones, of any and all races.) Indeed, I think that the fact that those attracted to public life are equally likely to yield to temptation proves that all people are basically the same, regardless of "race."

Oh yeah, one more thing about Bobert: I heartily endorse (and enjoy) his written diction, and absolutely believe him when he tells us that it's pretty much the way he speaks in person. I speak in a similar manner myself, mixing colloquial and even deliberately incorrect "folksy" usage with an occasional highfalutin' big word when no other word will serve. I just write in a much more formal manner than I speak ~ probably just because I write technical manuals for a living.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 09:33 PM

I'm not paying.

Pay me for all the slavery and abuse that Jews have gone through. Or pay the Indians.

and Sinsull, I have no reason at all to believe you. And who cares if Jesus was a black Jew? Look at his image in every damn church and you will see who cares. I hope he was a black Jew. He would still not be the messiah.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: harpgirl
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 09:41 PM

Actually, Sinsull, postmodern technological society has done more damage to both black and white families than slavery ever did. We made a mistake when we linked capitalism and free market economies with technological advances. The need for automobiles has done more damage to black and white families, than slavery.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: harpgirl
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 10:00 PM

Here's an interesting point of view:

"The conservatives are fools: They whine about the decay of traditional values, yet they enthusiastically support technological progress and economic growth. Apparently it never occurs to them that you can't make rapid, drastic changes in the technology and the economy of a society with out causing rapid changes in all other aspects of the society as well, and that such rapid changes inevitably break down traditional values."

Traditional values such as concern for the other guy, protecting the weak, providing for the underprivileged? The corporate world at the very top selects for sociopathy. That is why we see so many of these CEO's doing grossly antisocial things.

The provision of health care in the Unites States is so expensive now that it will likely be shed as a benefit of corporate employment. But that is because it is technoloigcally driven and much more expensive. Chinese health care is still much much cheaper. But that will change, too, I suspect. Convincing us that we don't deserve it as a perk is just a smoke screen for the real causal problem. It's technologically and profit driven. That is the problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 10:09 PM

Well gol danged, Martin ol buddy, we sho nuff agree that indiginous folks also need ot be compensated... Ain' too sure where Jews come in to repairation on the US landscape but may you'll enlighten me... European? Yeah... American? Ahhhh, I can't see it...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: SINSULL
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 10:56 PM

Martin,
We are in agreement on Jesus, the Messiah and Who Cares if he were black. My point is that many of the Christians who worship him as the Messiah have no use for a black Jewish blue collar worker.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: dianavan
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 01:23 AM

Bobert - I was only funnin' you about the climbing hydrangea (I mean hyacinth). I'll believe it when I see it.

Your 'dialect' does not sound Afro-American to me. You sound more like a a hillbilly. Since this a folk site, I think its perfectly appropriate.

Azizi - Do you write the way you speak or do you clean it up to sound a little closer to standard English? I know that most of the novels written by Afro-American women use the Afro-American speech patterns.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 07:53 AM

d,

Remember "Jack and the Bean Stalk"?

B;)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 12:24 PM

And of course sinsull you speak for many Christians.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 01:09 PM

No one should be accused of pretending to speak for others if one is offering a personal opinion and observation, which is what I see SINSULL doing.

And BTW I thought it was a POWERFUL and, in some settings, hugely accurate observation, which I will be using with a ministry discussion group next week!

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 02:01 PM

There were also some Jewish slave traders. Christians were not the only people who profited from the slave trade.

I don't have any good answers on the subject of reparations, but I do think we owe it to the people who come from families of exploited peoples to provide them with the best education possible. And that means adequately funding programs like Head Start, and also after-school programs that can help students function more effectively in academic settings.

Many of the children of such families don't get enough parental supervision because their parents have to work more than one job just to survive. These children need more nurturing adult influences in their lives, and if it requres some tax payer money to make it happen, it's much more to the benefit of society as a whole to provide it for these things than it is to use it to kill people in other countries for oil.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 02:43 PM

Dianavan, see my comments in the brackets to the questions yyou asked me:

"Do you write the way you speak [Yes. Of course-like everyone else- the way I speak depends on the context. I consider posting on Mudcat to be an informal pastime. And my writing reflects that. Sometimes I am more formal than this, and sometimes I am less formal.]

or do you clean it up to sound a little closer to standard English?"
['a little closer to standard English'!??!..Dianavan, because you're cool with me, girlfirend, I'll give you some slack for the implication that my writing might need to be 'cleaned up' or that my writing is only 'close to Standard English'.

LOL!! It's all good.

I think my writing and speech IS standard...True, I like hip-hop slang and other Black folk sayings and I sprinkle some of them in my writing and talking here and there to enhance the flava. But I know that I'm doing it and it's real.. Anyway, it seems to me that using slang and folk sayings is a standard practice in informal converations and writing for some individuals regardless of race or ethnicity].

"I know that most of the novels written by Afro-American women use the Afro-American speech patterns." [I'm not really in to novels as much as I am non-fiction..So I can't confirm that 'most' African American [the current correct referent] use any particular form of African American speech pattern. However, since there are soooo many different African American communities-regions/class/ethnicity etc-
I would rather doubt that all or most African Americans female
{or male} novelists use the same speech patterns for all their characters. That would be stereotypical, and boring wouldn't you think?]

Like I said, Dianavan, you are cool with me. Neither one of us needs to trip on anything written in these particular exchanges. But since you publicly asked, I felt I had to publicly respond.

Peace,
Azizi


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 03:58 PM

Of course there were some Jewish slave traders, CarolC. there were also Hindu, ones, Moslem ones, and probably even some who prayed to the Great god Calu on the planet Mongo.

but I doubt if there's been many Jewish trailer court residents.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 05:20 PM

but I doubt if there's been many Jewish trailer court residents.
I know a few. Can't say I've done analysis statistically on 'em, but Bubba Cohen is okay with me. Pays his taxes, talks good on movies we seen, and is all around a good ol' soul from the navel out in ever direction!

And I've done time in trailers more'n oncet and it never hurt me none. Just gotta be familiar with flame retardant undies.

and if my trailer's a rockin' don't come knockin' or I'll wrap your martin around your gilbert.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 05:25 PM

I wouldn't want to disturb you from listening to your Reba records.

I knew Bubba Cohen. He tried to re-attach his foreskin.

we don't want him back.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 05:33 PM

but I doubt if there's been many Jewish trailer court residents

You could be right about that, Martin, but only if you don't count any of the many thousands of Israeli settlers who live in trailer courts (and sometimes in tents) in the West Bank and Gaza as being Jewish.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: dianavan
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 10:58 PM

Thanks for the slack, Azizi. I was no way hinting that your written English was not quite standard. I was wondering just the opposite. I wondered if your oral language and your written language were the same. I know that my oral language is quite different. When writing, however, I can usually edit and clean it up so that its easier for most folks to read.

Most of the novels I was referring to were written long ago and set in a period even older. Although it was hard to understand at first, I truly enjoyed the dialect and the sensibility of authors who wrote in the words of their people. I hope that African Americans continue to use their own spicy language. It is one of the things I miss most about the U.S.

Yes, you are right - it is now African American but when I lived in the States it was Afro-American. In Canada we don't use that term because so many people here are from the Caribbean, Haiti and elsewhere. We mostly just call them neighbors.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: John Hardly
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 08:05 AM

My friend (and banjo player in my trio) was doing his doctoral research in Africa. While living there he applied for a driver's license.

He came to the part of the application that referred to "color". Uncertain, he looked to his left and right at two dark-skinned men who stood there filling out similar forms and noticed that one had put down "yellow" while the other had marked "red".

Further puzzled, being American, and therefore assuming that by "color" they were referring to "race", but seeing two blacks fill in red and yellow instead, he went to the desk and asked the clerk what he was supposed to put in this blank.

The clerk looked at him for a second or two and then called over his supervisor. The supervisor asked my friend to show him the undersides of his arms and, when my friend did, said, "white, very".

Seems that what was necessary for the purposes of identification was description, not affiliation.

If a dark-skinned man is found unconscious and admitted to the hospital that way, by what logic is he "African-American"? Without an ability to tell you otherwise, why could he not be Jamaican or Canadian or British or...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 08:36 AM

Head Start is about INCOME, not RACE.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: GUEST,CarolC
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 01:12 PM

It is and it isn't, WYSIWYG.

First of all, I did not use the word race in my post. The term I used was "exploited peoples". My point in this thread is that one thing we can do to help remedy the problems for African Americans that have been created by slavery and intitutionalized racism, is to give those who have been the vicitms of this the best education possible. Head Start can help to do this. It can also help to neutralize some of the harmful effects of exploitation of other peoples as well, and that is a good thing, but it is irrelevant to the point I was trying to make in my post. I don't understand why that would need to be an issue or even need explaining. It seems kind of obvious to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 08:12 PM

Actually, if we would support and fully fund many of the programs that came out of the Great Society this would go a loong way toward leveling the playing field... Plus, these are programs that help the cross section of those living in poverty, including ingiginous people and white livin' in Appilacia...

Now, throw in a guarenteed nation income and we're off an' running...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 09:37 PM

CarolC, are the poor white folks in my area exploited? That's who Head Start serves here.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 01:12 AM

I don't understand what you are trying to get at, Wysiwyg. Is there something wrong with other people besides Black people benefitting from programs like Head Start? If there is, I surely can't figure out what it might be. And who is to say that those poor white kids don't come from exploited peoples? "Exploited peoples" is, after all, the term I used. I did not say anything about race in my post.

Here is the exact wording I used:

I don't have any good answers on the subject of reparations, but I do think we owe it to the people who come from families of exploited peoples to provide them with the best education possible.

I really can't understand why you would be making an issue out of what I have said in my post.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 01:23 AM

Addendum to my last post. In my 16 Apr 05 - 01:12 PM post, I said this:

My point in this thread is that one thing we can do to help remedy the problems for African Americans that have been created by slavery and intitutionalized racism

And that seems to contradict what I said in my last post. I think that is confusing and needs to be clarified. The subject of this thread is race. My first post not race specific, but I do recognize that because this thread is about race, the part of my point that is relevant to this thread is the part that addresses the benefits of these programs for African Americans. Had this been a thread about any other exploited peoples, my post would have been just as relevant, and that is how I intended it to be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 09:15 AM

CarolC, I would hope our PMs have cleared up the misunderstanding?

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: GUEST,CarolC
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 12:32 PM

I don't have any way of finding out right now, Wysiwyg, because I am here through the back door and I don't have access to my PMs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 12:54 PM

Ok. I've been to my PMs. It looks like it's been cleared up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: GUEST,NASCAR Foe
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 01:04 PM

And I thought this was a thread about that beer drinkin', hot dog eatin', cigar smokin' mainly white, Bobert kind of pastime, knowed as NASCAR. A all completely different kind of race.

Grand Prix (no pun intended)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 03:15 PM

Thanks, Carol.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Once Famous
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 04:30 PM

CarolC.

Don't be stupid. In America there are not Jews living in trailer courts. In Israel, which is still a DEVEOLPING COUNTRY I do not think it would be unusual.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Once Famous
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 04:31 PM

In America, CarolC., Jews seem to work harder to have more than a trailer court lifestyle for their children.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 07:03 PM

In America, Martin, Jews seem to come from families that are well off... That's a big advantage for a kid... No so for kids born into poverty...

Poverty is a self perpetuating cycle...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: mg
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 07:09 PM

Good heavens Bobert...they came here to American and certainly were not well off. They were tailors and rag collectors and bone collectors and many other things as well. They lived in putrid slums. The cycle of poverty can and has been broken. That is not to blame anyone in it...but the message that has to be given is that it can be broken. Main ingredients have been found to finish high school, stay off drugs and alcohol and don't be involved in pregnancy outside of marriage. That is the recipe. No guarantees it always works, but pretty good guarantees if you want a prescription for poverty start with the above. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 07:17 PM

They also came with a rich culture and with education and they came freely, not bound and tied in the bowels of ships... And they could choose where they lived... And they weren't terrorized with a century's worth of Jim Crow...

Get real... No comparasion at all... You are showing your your lack of understanding about history here... Some of it very recent history...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 07:20 PM

MG,

All the Jews I have known were working class and in some cases, working poor. Close friends among these lived, as I did, in the suburban slum surrounding the old Sky Harbor airport. If there had been a trailer court there, we'd have been there, side by side-- my house smelling of oven-broiled cheeseburgers, and theirs of kasha.

Now I live where there are a LOT of trailers. My focus now (as you know) is church stuff, and those ministries leave little time for a personal life or friends of other cultural backgrounds. However, although our area has very few people who identify as Jewish, they-- like many othter folks in the county-- live on farms and/or in houses, apartments, and-- yep-- trailers.

What this tells me is that like most groups that identify to a cultural commonality of some sort, Jews are a pretty diverse lot.

Of course for you to really believe me, I guess you'd have to come to a Mudcat Gathering here sometime, and we could do a driving tour of various trailerhoods and count mezuzahs (sp???). But then your identity would be "outed," because I would not give you directions till I'd gotten you to take an order for good Chicago dogs to bring along with you! :~)

"Outed" or not, I hope you'll come to one sometime. Lotta bluegrass here, too, so I think we could keep you entertained.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 07:24 PM

Don't hold yer breath, Wizzie, but it *would* do Martin a world of good to expand his horizons...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 09:58 PM

Trailer courts serve their purpose, Martin. There is no shame in living in one. For us, it is a good way to get back on our feet after most of the jobs in JtS' area of expertise (computer software consultant) got shipped to other countries. For many of the other people who live in this trailer park, it is a convenient place to live while they put in their time serving their country at the Fort Benning army base.

I don't experience any shame for the fact that we are living here for the time being (or even if we found ourselves needing to stay here). The foolish people are the ones who live beyond their means and beyond the circumstances in which they find themselvs just to impress others, or who allow their sense of self worth to be defined by their material circumstances.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Once Famous
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 10:31 PM

bobert, man some of your true colors sure came out.

You are as phony as they come.

Susan, I have traveled many, many backroads in this country in just about every state. I am sure that the amount of Jews who belong to organized Judaism and keep it as part of their lives living in trailer courts or for that matter, much of rural America is infantisimil(sp).

No, there really is no shame living in a trailer court if it is clean and a good home. But I am sure that people who really care, would work harder to better themselves. I'll bet the bluegrass is decent though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 10:53 PM

JtS worked very hard to get where he was when I met him. And at that time, he was earning more than $100,000 a year. These days he is working even harder than he was then... lately he's been putting in fifteen hour days in a new kind of work he's trying out. Somtimes, no matter how hard you work, things just don't go your way. And it might take us some time to get back on our feet again and figure out what is the best thing for us to be doing. But the people who are capable and resourceful, and not afraid of being made fun of for living within their means... those are the ones who can hold their heads up and feel good about themselves no matter what.

And it was JtS' resourcefulness that has enabled us to get by while we work on establishing ourselves in our new kinds of work. He was wise and smart enough to save a lot of money while he was still working with computer software. I've very proud to be married to someone as resourceful, intelligent, and competent as he is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Once Famous
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 11:00 PM

Awwwwwwww, how touching.

I'm going to bed now.

Have a real job that I have to get up in the morning for.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 11:03 PM

Too bad having that real job hasn't given you any sense of self-respect. If it did, you wouldn't need to put other people down in order to feel good about yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 11:09 PM

MG, in these parts, some of our hardest working folks live in trailers. It's considered a respectable dwelling, and most folks in them take very good care of their homes. Hardscrabble country, but lots and lots of people who are the salt of the earth. Not too hard to see that some of them would be Jews-- honorable people whose word is good. Small numbers for sure-- not enough in this sparse rural county for a synagogue-- but they are out there.

No shit.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 11:18 PM

Don't expect an intellegent response, Wizzer.... MG is not capable... But yeah, you are right... It ain't about where one lives but what lives in one's heart....

Bobert

p.s. I've had just about 'nuff of Martin and getting ready to blockin' him out until he starts applying a few more brain cells into debating his postions and less about his racist generalizations...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 12:26 AM

Funny how someone who cries anti-semitism at the drop of a hat feels free to consider others trailer trash, hippies, commies, etc. It doesn't leave a whole lot of room for respect. It make me wonder why he thinks he's entitiled to more respect than he gives to others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 07:28 AM

Yeah, d, Martin is the poster boy for hypocrisy...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: GUEST,Koonta
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 08:14 AM

Whatcha gots to 'member is it wuz not whiteys but Africans that cought and sol other Africans to tha slave trader ta begin wif:

African traders transported slaves from the interior of Africa. Equiano and others found themselves sold and traded more than once, often in slave markets. African merchants, the poor, royalty -- anyone -- could be abducted in the raids and wars that were undertaken by Africans to secure slaves that they could trade. The slave trade devastated African life. Culture and traditions were torn asunder, as families, especially young men, were abducted. Guns were introduced and slave raids and even wars increased.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 11:24 AM

Hush up there, Koonta. This is MUDCAT-

No facts that might contradict what Bobert and his ubermensch want to prove is allowed to be brought up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Once Famous
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 03:14 PM

bobert, you are the poster boy for irrational radicals. It's obviously apparent that you have lost your thin cool and realize that you have lost this debate and many others, especially in my anti-semitism thread. You are what's wrong with this country just spreading a lot of lies and hate. You will NEVER be happy in America, bobert. You haven't been yet and you never will.

You are a detriment to this country and to the fairness of this website.

if you don't like it here bobert among the patriots and the non-biased who are still not clinging to a dead and buried old hippie 1960s ideology, I would suggest that you join a forum about gardening.

Wake up and smell the coffee bobert and quit smelling all of that pot, already.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 05:46 PM

Hey, Martin, yer the one who seems do distraught... Maybe yer the one who needs to leave...

I'm happy to live in this country and fir the most part happy with my neighbors and the folks in my community. That is why it is me, not you with yer little food closet, who is very involved with many community projects...You see, that's what good citizens do... That's why, if you'll check out the times of the day I'm here are limited to a little bit in the am and some evenings 'cause I'm out in the community trying to make stuff better for my fellow citizens. You opn the other hand are here slinging mUd at you neighbores morning, noon and night... Is that yer idea of being a good American? Oh yeah and dropping a few canned goods by the food closet? Haha...

And, no, I don't want no medal fir it so don't even offer... I do it because service to one's fellow man of one's community is worth more than all the insults you can think up if you had a million years to think them up...

With every post you are doing nuthin' but proving my point... No, I'm not loosin' any discussions because I am on the pro-human side of the equation and therefore can't loose... Sure, you and folks likeyou can pay people to kill us but you will never win, neither in this life or the next... Your debts will be paid...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 12:50 AM

Koonta - What you got to remember is that for a slave trade to exist on the scale that it did in Africa, there had to be a very large force driving the market. Those ships were not African.

Sure, there are always those who will profit from the misery of their brothers and sisters but it wasn't African plantations which needed the free labour to build a rich nation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 02:04 AM

I agree with you, Dianavan, and would just amend your statement to pluralize it.

There were African ethnic groups involved in the slave trade {as my only other post to this thread mentions}. However, European nations, the Caribbean nations, and South American nations etc that were colonized by European nations, and the United States {including the North} profited from the slave trade and the institution of chattel slavery.

As an African American, I have read this thread with interest.

Frankly, I'm a bit tired of talking about the topic of race..After all, I've often been in situations where I am called upon to talk about this topic-formally and informally..and it gets to be a bit much..And my interests force me to read about slavery and history and that also becomes difficult to bear sometimes, so I have to leave it alone and think of less heavy duty topics.

I found some echo of my feelings on being Black and having to represent and learn about slavery in this link:

Henry Louis Gates, Jr. letters

Here is a link for a book review that discusses Europe and the slave trade

Europe and the Slave trade

And here is one that discusses Afrikan involvement in the slave trade:

Afikan Involvement in The Slave Trade

{the spelling "Afrikan" is one that some Afro-centric Blacks use}

I also notice that one topic of debate on this thread is Reparations. Frankly, I'm not holding my breath for any reparations..But a Formal Apology from all involved in supporting the slave trade would be nice...

For those who want to read up on the topic, as I am doing, here's an interesting article:

The Reparations Debate

And if GUEST,Koonta {as in Kunta Kinte of Roots fame?} is real,
I hope he or she sticks around and joins in further discussion and actually joins this dicussion forum.

That's an invitation if he or she needs one...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 02:14 AM

Not that it matters a heck of alot, but I want to note that I 'mispoke' when I said I had only had one other post to this thread. But that other post were tangential to the main topic..


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 02:19 AM

Let me correct my mistakes in the last post:

My other posts were tangential to the main topic of this thread..

[I'm mindful of the need to make these corrections since I went on record and stated that I write and speak Standard English.]

LOL!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:46 AM

Yes, Azizi, I would be happy to pluralize my statement to include Europe.

In fact, if you look at slavery in the world today (and it still exists) I would say that an all out end to it would be just about the best way to apologize to anyone who has suffered the degradation of slavery. Check this out for a start:

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/slavery1.html

Maybe its time. I would rather see the energy of the moral majority (and they are a major political force) being directed toward ending slavery worldwide than supporting a war which has only increased human misery and lined the pockets of the war profiteers. I hope I see the day!

I can see how the race and/or slavery question gets boring. Its kinda like people saying I don't look Native or asking me about totem poles or Native spirituality. ;>)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 07:29 AM

I like Aziz'z idea of a "Public Apology" and was disappointed when it was talked about in the 90's that it didn't come to fruition. I think it would have represented a very important step forward toward civility and in not doing it when it was being talked about represented a step backwards...

There are folks who like to throw around the term "personal responsibilty" yet have no interest in our society steppin' to the plate and confessin' one big ol' sin in our history?!?!.... See, I don't get that and what it tacitly says is that bad behavior is okeedokeee... Welll, it wasn't back then and it ain't today wither...
It's no wonder that the American people were so easily tricked in invading Iraq... If folks don't hold themselve accountable, as in "personal responsibility, then it easy to justify all kinds of immoral stuff...

Talk about not ownin' up, the '06 budget proposed by Bush is as immoral a budget that has ever been proposed and *disporportunately* hurts black women and children by cutting programs aimed to help impoverished people in inner cities...

                But back to "The Apolgy":

((((As one American citizen, I am truely sorry that my country engaeged in slavery. It was immoral and disgusting and a chapter of our history that we should teach our children about in a manner that would make them better citizens and better able to not be able to rationalize immoral policies. To all black Americans who are descendants of slaves, I am very sorry.))))

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 07:59 AM

Thank you, Bobert.

On behalf of my African ancestors who were enslaved and on behalf of any other of my ancestors who were enslaved and myself, I accept your apology.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 08:29 AM

Bobert,

While I appreciate that apology from you, those who work to make this nation and the world a better place for all people without regard to race, creed, color, religion, sexual orientation, disability, and/or other things that might divide people, have no need to voice their apology to me for actions taken in the past or actions taken in the present.

Some Black people vehemently oppose the notion of a public apology in place of Reparations. Others see a formal public apology as a beginning whose intent is to lead towards Reparations from multinational corporations and nations. Still others see a public apology as enough. I am still studying the subject and waver between the 2nd and the 3rd option.

See this link on Reparations:

Reparations

I know that some African ethnic groups were very much involved in the slave trade. And I've read that some West Africans have publicly apologized for their ancestors' roles in the slave trade.

See this link for one African's apology:
African Bishop apologizes for slavery


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 08:51 AM

Dianavan,

Let me clarify that I never think that reading or talking about slavery or Black history is boring.

I meant to convey that sometimes I need to take a break from those subjects because they are too emotionally heavy duty for me.

Most of the times those subjects make me sad.

And sometimes they make me angry.

In my late teens and very early 20s, I went through a period when I hated some prominent historical and contemporary White people for their roles in the slavery, lynching, and institutionalizing second class citizenship.

At the same time I was desperatedly seeking Good White People so that I could convince myself that all White people weren't negative.

I am thankful that I came out on the other side of that hate tunnel, since hate poisons and diminishes the person who hates.

I have since found a number of "Good White People" and-Glory Be!- some of them even posts on Mudcat. [smile and seriously].

Like some other people here on Mudcat and elsewhere,
I believe that what people term 'race' and 'ethnicity' should just be considered valueless descriptors.

However, I am realistic enough to know that this is a goal and not a present day reality.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 07:51 PM

Seems like we scared everyone off, MiziAzizi.... Hmmmmmm? I guess Littel Hawk must be on one of his pilgrimages to the top of the mountain to hang with some of his rock (no, not rock music but real, ahhhh, rocks) friends 'er he'd certainly stop in at this juncture and throw a few peas into the pot...

And I know I didn't *have* to apologize but, hey, it's part of what I can do an' maybe some other white folks might feel a little better about the embaressments of the white race if they did the same... It's kinda like another way of sayin' "Not in my name"...

And another thing it has done is shook the trolls off the thread 'casue it now places their values right there on the slide unner the microscope...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Once Famous
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 09:24 PM

bobert, your apology was self-serving and meant nothing. If I was black, which I am not, I would spit in your eye because you reached.

I am not embarrassed by the white race because I personally have enslaved no one and neither have any of my ancestors. But if it helps you move your bowels and your self esteem, I can enjoy you for the joke you are.

BTW, I have never heard the Jews ask the Egyptians for an apology or for anything to make up for 400 years of slavery, inclduing shlepping all of those big bricks to build the pyramids.

And your posts with their poor grammar and spelling are starting to make John from Hull's posts look like he is an English teacher from Harvard.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 11:59 PM

So Martin, if you are wretching about the 400 years of enslavement of Jews by Egyptians, why can't you see that slavery as it exists today is also wrong? Do you just turn a blind eye to the enslavement of others and prefer to think your people are the only ones that are hard done by? Its hard to feel sympathy for those    that has no sympathy for anyone else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 06:23 PM

Only Two to go El Ted !!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: GUEST,Dipthong
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 06:58 PM

It's a good day for the race...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: GUEST,Dipthong
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 07:00 PM

...the human race.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 08:24 PM

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2005-04-20-iraq_x.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: GUEST,Spring Brucesteen
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 08:47 PM

"We didn't start the fire...."


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Once Famous
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 08:53 PM

dianavan, slavery is wrong no matter where, no matter who.

But I have a feeling our definitions of what slavery is might be different.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 11:27 PM

http://www.anti-slaverysociety.addr.com/tocslavery.htm


http://www.aaregistry.com/african_american_history/1529/Slavery_today_yes_it_is_still_happening


and my previous post should have been the following- Sorry about that.

http://www.globalaware.org/Artlicles_eng/slave_art_eng.htm
http://www.socialaction.com/sudanfromshma.html
http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0309/feature1/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/specials/1357_slavery_today/index.shtml

blue clickies seem frozen out right now...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: GUEST, Ebbie
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 01:03 AM

In Alaska, there eventually were reparations made to the indigenous people of the area. It took a long time and a lot of wrangling but it was felt important and necessary. There are, I believe, 13 corporations all over Alaska that were formed by the Native populations after the money was allocated and the lands claim act was enacted. The money is invested and managed by their boards with the aim of benefitting their people.

I don't know how the equivalent could be done for the indigenous people of the whole United States or for the descendants of the enslaved peoples. But it is a matter of history that a great many of the large buildings in a number of US cities, including New York, were designed by African Americans, plus much of the backbreaking labor was performed by slaves. Maybe just simple recognition of that truth - perhaps with plaques in appropriate places - would help educate many uninformed or racist Americans.

(Incidentally, someone said above that Chinese people had been enslaved on the West Coast- that's the first I've heard of that. It is true that dealers/promoters/whatever brought over boatloads of Chinese workers for certain jobs and projects and then returned them home- the Chinese were not allowed to stay. But they were paid. It was not slavery in any sense; rather, it was a mutually beneficial process. Don't get me wrong- I'm very well aware that the governing race - in this case, the whites - were not being altruistic.

And later, Chinese worked in mines and canneries and various institutions for very little money and in deplorable conditions and in return in some cases were raided in their homes and forcibly wrestled onto ships and taken south. (It happened both in Seattle, Washington and in Juneau. Alaska, and probably in other places.) Not too different a scenario from now, frankly. The white culture doesn't want to pick the fruit or vegetables for the amount of money paid itinerant workers but mightily resents that they are taking "our" jobs.

A good point was made by Sinsull above that even if Africans in many cases abducted other Africans and sold them to the slave traders, the urge to profit when a lucrative opportunity appears has probably always been a component of the human being. The white culture has certainly made it a fine art.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: mg
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 12:26 PM

I think the plaques idea is very good. In only one park I have seen is there a plaque that basically says this was the winter campground (I think) of this particular tribe, which I forget which one it was..but it is the Lewis and Clark park near Chehalis, Washington. I think these should at least be in all public lands. Now, Nahcotta, WA does have a plaque that says this was the summer camp of Chief Nahcotta.

There was, if not slavery, a form of indenture by Hudson's Bay of Hawaiaan people at Ft. Vancouver The King of Hawaii worked out a deal where his people would work for the fort and eventually be freed..many stayed on..hence the names Kalama WA and Aloha OR. They are excavating the Kanaka Village at Ft. Vancouver. More Hawaiaans than any other ethnic group worked there. Off the subject..a whole lot of Metis were on the original Lewis and Clark journey but you don't hear about it much.

More could be done on the plaques..not only recognizing the African Americans who built the buildings..but the Irish who carried the bricks and the Italians who carved the Frescoes..with their actual names if known. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 01:00 PM

Interesting, Mary G. I spent most of my life in Oregon and never knew where Aloha got its name. Thanks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: GUEST,PoppaGator
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 02:22 PM

Vis-a-vis Ebby's mention (a couple of posts previously) of the labor performed by Chinese folks out west, and how it was NOT "slavery":

Some of the "paid" (actually, underpaid) labor that built America's infrastructure, and that was assigned to various immigrant groups, was in a very real sense WORSE than slavery. It was so dangerous that economics dictated that human property not be risked by the employment of slaves.

The use of Chinese laborers ("coolies") in blasting rights-of-way through the western mountains for the transcontinental railroad is one good example. It's interesting to learn that these exploited workers were not even allowed to stay here if and when they survived upon completion of their work, but were deported back to China with their meagre earnings.

Another example of which I am especially aware was the use of Irish immigrants to dig the New Basin Canal in New Orleans back in the 1840s. The threat of disease (yellow fever and other tropical diseases) was so great that slaveowners refused to lease out their chattel to participate in the effort ~ their human property was too valuable to let them die in the effort to make civic improvements.

The first wave of famines in Ireland was just underway, and New Orleans quickly became the number-one US port of entry for Irish immigrants, because of the canal-digging jobs that were available. Once they arrived, however, so many died of disease that immigrants from Ireland to America forever after avoided New Orleans "like the plague." Statistically, an Irishman stood a better chance of survival by staying home and enduring the famine than by moving to New Orleans to dig the canal.

Ironically, native Louisianans (white and black, slave and free) would not have succumbed to the same diseases in any appreciable numbers. Current scientific opinion is that everyone who had survived childhood in the local environs had developed immunities to the various mosquito-borne diseases, while immigrants from elsewhere ~ not just from Ireland, but from anywhere in Europe and even from the northern US ~ were pretty much dead meat. Of course, no one at the time knew what we know today about disease, immunology,s.

The tendency of the immigrant groups (Italians and others as well as the Irish) to fall victim to these diseases in such great numbers became the basis of a widespread belief that the people themselves were dirty and unhealthy, a danger to "native Americans."


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 08:01 PM

Well, Martin... I'm sure you are quite supportive of the Holocost Musium and...

... I'm sho nuff glad that you aren't black because with yer self-righteous and very white attitudes most black folk who wouldn't give you the time of day... let alone stoop to spit in yer face...

Might of fact, from the responses you get around Mudville I'm purdy sure that in real life most of the folks around here would feel the same way about you...

But go ahead a drop a few cans of beans by the food closet so you can continue to feel that warm and fuzzy feelin' about being a regular community activist...

Haha...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Kaleea
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 08:06 PM

So, uh, if some o' my "people" er, uh, ancestors, met some o' my other "people", uh, that is, other ancestors--a commin' acrost the plains & some of em was friendly but others wuzn't & done did some shootin' & then a bunch o' them thar dirty dog evil guv'mint fellerz a wearin' uniforms telled some o' my people thet they wuz to walk a looong trail to the promised land which was to later be tuk away, and them people thet did the walkin' was a mixin' it up wif some o my other people & didn't want anybody to know about the ancestors thet did the trail walkin & so kept on a mixin' it up till nobody nowhere remembered whut anybody wuz before the mixin'--so do I git some o' thet thar repair-ay-shun stuff fer the part o' me thet got all mixed up? Cuz I could really use some repair work--some nips & tucks, & new knees, and flab schloopin would be nice, not to mention that when I wave my upper arms wave back--boy could that use some repairin'!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 08:18 PM

Traditionally, in the good ole US of A, it only takes one drop of "Black" blood to be considered Black.

That means that there's a whole lot of White Black people in this country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 08:20 PM

But if you're passin and I know it, your secret is safe with me.



Sista Azizi


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 08:53 PM

I want an apology from the white male race for the enslavement of women for most of written history. And I demand my money!!!!!@!! The rest of you shaded dudes should send me money too!


guess who


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 09:12 PM

Yeah, women definately got a big apology owed 'um so I'll go on record of apologizin' to all the women fir the dumbass stuff than men and have done, and continue to do, to women...

But yer gonna have to hit someone up fir the dough, guess who, 'cause I'm a tad on the tapped out side. Though I wouldn't mind seein' my tax dollars better spent to help women, especially those whoes husbands have run off leavin' them to take care of *their* kids....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 09:15 PM

Aint that the truth! If you cut through the crap, what you find is that women (of all races and all socio-economic groups) have the longest history of unpaid labour and discrimination in all countries.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Once Famous
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 10:32 PM

[bleep - for antisocial behavior]bobert your such a fuck stick. My neighbors are black, and are good friends.

If you knew what you were talking about, and wrote without such a moronic attitude, you might be considered not a socialist sicko.

But, too bad. You are one of the biggest morons here. I'm loving how desperate your attacks are getting. Loving it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 10:43 PM

Martin:

I was wonderin' how long it would take for you to pull out the old "Some of my best friends are black" line...

Gettin' purdy desperate, ain't ya?

That's okay, maybe a couple extra cans of Campbell's Chicken with Rice soup in the food closet will get ya back to feelin' all warm and fuzzy....

And, as a sidebar, I'm lovin' that yer lovin' my attacks... Heck, I'd hate to think that they were going to waste and BTW, you ain't doing so bad yerseff...

LOL...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Once Famous
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 11:00 PM

Campbell's Chicken and Rice Soup.   Mmmmmmmm, good. Great American product by a great American company. But of couse there are some Kosher brands that are better but would would you know about that kind of wuality, bobert.

And of course in an urban area as big as Chicago there are ethnic people I know and like at home and at work.

[bleep - for antisocial behavior] I don't care about your attacks bobert. They are weak and as flaccid as your old prick. Your last erection was probably obtained with a string, or were you just playing marionette.

At least I am still going to out-clever you any day of the week. Goyishe kups like yours are no match for a mensch.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 11:15 PM

Hmmmmm, Martin? What is it with my penis that has you so fixated???

Like I've said before... You really need to talk with yer shrink about that polymorphose perverse guilt that you been carryin' round with you for way too long...

BTW, you never did get around to respondin' to my question about the Holocost Museum,... What, it's okay for Jews to tell their stories but not okay for black folks to tell theirs???

Like what's that all about?

Can you answer that simple question without fixatin' on my private parts???

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: GUEST,guess who again
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 12:00 AM

come on marvin gibbon...we want to give you a going away present, but you'll have to do your part!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 12:56 AM

Please, Martin, your ignorance is showing! I don't know which staement is worse:

"My neighbors are black, and are good friends."

or

"...there are ethnic people I know and like at home and at work."

What are ethnic people?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 03:49 PM

People of color, dianavan, or of first generation ethnic origin.

[bleep - for antisocial behavior]Now, please tell me why you are such a wacky, bitter bitch?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 03:51 PM

certainly not fixated, bobert. commentary does not equal fixation.

And there is a holocaust museum because there should be, that's why.
so sorry if that disturbs your sorry socialist conscience.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 08:40 PM

No, Martin, actually there should be a Holocost Museum because it a story that very much needs to be told... jus' as the story about slavery in America needs to be told... You seem to wnat one story told but can't see the, in a way, the story of slavery in America is very much a similar story of the pain of having families ripped apart, and loss, and a toatl disregard for other human beings...

Yeah, the Holocost story seems so neat and tidy now that "Schindler's List" (a very oving and informative movie) and the Holocost Museum are in have gone down...

Yet you would not allow or approve or sponsor the same acknowledgements to the descendents of slaves??? I find this very disturbing... Like we got our story told so screw yours...

Hmmmmmmm?

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: GUEST,Koonta
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 11:57 PM

Slavery continues today with the full knowledge of the UN governed by Africans. Do they care?

Evidently not or they would do something about it besides beat their gums and collect their pay.

But it's still all Whitey's fault.

UNICEF (the UN Children's Fund) estimates that 200,000 children from West and Central Africa are sold into slavery each year.

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/slavery1.html

"Slave Trading on Africa's West Coast

The slave trade in Africa was officially banned in the early 1880s, but forced labor continues to be practiced in West and Central Africa today. UNICEF estimates that 200,000 children from this region are sold into slavery each year. Many of these children are from Benin and Togo, and are sold into the domestic, agricultural, and sex industries of wealthier, neighboring countries such as Nigeria and Gabon.
      
The most recent incident involved the MV Etireno, which was refused from ports in Gabon and Cameroon. When the ship reached Cotonou, Benin, in April, 2001, police began an investigation of the captain and crew. More adults than children were believed to be aboard.
Chattel slavery in Sudan

The enslavement of the Dinkas in southern Sudan may be the most horrific and well-known example of contemporary slavery. According to 1993 U.S. State Department estimates, up to 90,000 blacks are owned by North African Arabs, and often sold as property in a thriving slave trade for as little as $15 per human being.
"There he found several Dinka men hobbling, their Achilles tendons cut because they refused to become Muslims."      

Animist tribes in southern Sudan are frequently invaded by Arab militias from the North, who kill the men and enslave the women and children. The Arabs consider it a traditional right to enslave southerners, and to own chattel slaves (slaves owned as personal property).

Physical mutilation is practiced upon these slaves not only to prevent escape, but to enforce the owners' ideologies. According to an ASI report: "Kon, a thirteen-year-old Dinka boy, was abducted by Arab nomads and taken to a merchant's house. There he found several Dinka men hobbling, their Achilles tendons cut because they refused to become Muslims. Threatened with the same treatment the boy converted."

In a detailed article by Charles Jacobs for the American Anti-Slavery Group (ASI), Jacobs recounts how a 10-year-old child was taken in a raid on her village in southern Sudan, and branded by her master with a hot iron pot."


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 07:36 AM

Guest Koonta [a play on the name Kunta Kinte?-clever. But are you really of African descent??? Only you know the truth of that, but I have my suspicions that the answer is "No"].

Thank you for providing information about a subject that needs to be discussed. The subject of present day slavery has been raised before on this discussion forum, and certainly can be and needs to be raised again.

Furthermore, I agree with you that places of power such as the United Nations need to direct more attention to these heinous acts.

Koonta, I do not deny that some Black Africans were involved in slavery along with White people in the past and that some Africans are still involved in slavery in the present along with White people and also independent of White people.

I also am aware-as I'm sure that you are-that present day slavery exist elsewhere and not just in the continent of Africa.

And Koonta, for what it's worth, I personally find the term "Whitey" as offensive an individual or group referent as the term N---g [though I will spell one out and not the other].


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 07:48 AM

Let me clarify that I don't use those two terms at all except when responding to a person such as yourself who may be posting information for valid reasons or who may be tryin to "instigate" just for the fun of it so that you can then sit back and watch the fire works.

troll troll. Has anybody seen a troll?

Maybe. But I responded to your post because, at this point, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt.

I just wanted you to know...


Sista Azizi


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 10:17 AM

Of course, everybody is of African descent if you go back far enough.

But when I questioned "Koonta"'s membership in the 'club', I wasn't talking about ancient history.

Then again, all through history we've been known to accept as members those who weren't born into the club but still have paid their dues in blood, sweat, and tears.

As a bonafide member, there's a number of folks here I would recommend for membership if they needed backing-which they probably don't since their lives speak for themselves.

And no-I'm not naming names except to say that from the posts I've seen, it wouldn't be Koonta.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: GUEST,CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 02:03 PM

I think GUEST,Koonta's 28 Apr 05 - 11:57 PM post was more an example of Muslim bashing than anything else. We see quite a lot of that sort of thing hereabouts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 07:33 PM

Well, yeah... Slavery is still a serious problem in part of Africa and it needs to be addressed...

Problem is that when the world's single Super Power can't fess up in sayin' it was wrong in out history, it sure does sent a signal that it's, ahhhh, okay... No is isn't, I wasn't and it never will be...

I think the US could set a fine example for the world by facing its past and atoning for its collective sins...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 03:27 AM

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/04/29/latam.sextrafficking.ap/index.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: SharonA
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 02:36 PM

"Bobert's Race Thread"? Here I thought Bobert was running in a marathon and needed encouragement... (Go, Bobert, go!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 08:11 PM

Good link, bb... Yeah, this is the kida stuff that is as wrong as wrong can be...

Now, ahhhhh, I gotta a big ol' smile on my face 'cause long lost SharoooonA has resurfaced and on my thread... Make me all watm and fuzzy... But, no I' ain't runnin' no marathon 'er even a 5K fir that matter... Might of fact, my runnin' days are in the past...Sniff... Mr. Knee and Dr. Knee Surgeon have spoken loudly.... Good to see ya, Chardoney SharoooonA...

Bobert


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