Blackgrass

Subject: Blackgrass
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 08:38 AM

Next weekend, The Gospel Messengers and Shoregrass will be doing a concert together. I've been to a ton of black gospel programs, but never heard any bluegrass there. Been to bluegrass festivals and didn't see a lot of black gospel quartets. It seems ironic that there seems to be more musical segregation now than there was when there was such restrictive racial segregation in the past. From what I've read over the years, there was more of an interchange between blues musicians, country singers, string bands and perhaps even gospel in the twenties and thirties. I wonder why there appears to be less awareness and appreciation betwen different ethnic groups now.
Or perhaps, my perception is wrong.

Frankie and Joe, in my quartet grew up in South Carolina and Virginia, respectively. They're both 80, so when they were kids, they still had living relatives who were freed slaves, and there were still signs of slavery in their towns... a place where slaves were chained before auction. And yet they both grew up listening to Uncle Dave Macon and the Grand Ole 'Opry as much as they did to blues and black gospel. Frankie can do a white hillbilly accent that would put Bobert to shame and loves to jump in on a Carter Family song, completely in style. They both love bluegrass and we're looking forward with great anticipation to the concert. So are our family on my wife's side.

I know that there were black string band musicians (The Dallas String Band being the most famous) as well as black fiddlers and banjo players(most obviously.) I wonder how the separation came about, and if there are any black musicians in bluegrass, or old-time music that people have heard. There have always been a few blacks in country music, and I just saw a video of a country band with a black lead singer.

There was a time when all this music must have been familiar to most people in the South. Maybe it's the radio programming that segregates music to increase product sales.

Any thoughts?

Hey, Aizi... know and blackgrass bands?

Jerry

Subject: RE: Blackgrass
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 10:08 AM

I'm pretty immersed in bluegrass and can't say that I know any blackgrass musicians. The irony is that one of Bill Monroe's great influences was the black blues guitarist Arnold Schultz, with whom he spent much time. You can definitely hear the influence in his music and in the bluegrass that I like most.

We go to several bluegrass festivals every summer, and I remember seeing ONE black person, a non-musician woman, at a festival which has since gone under. Of course she was noticeable against the crowd of white faces, but at ease and welcomed. I sometimes fret over the insular nature of this music I love, and in fact have had some serious issues regarding the whole sub-culture in terms of not only race, but also religious zealotry, southern pride, "family" values, etc. I also have some of those same issues while sitting in an audience of a classical symphony concert. Every special interest group seems to perpetuate itself with this kind of insularity.

In any case, I like what I like and I don't like what I don't like, which tends to self-regulate music generally, no? I welcome the upcoming opportunity to hear some black gospel quartet music (which I like) while also getting to play some bluegrass (which I like). It will be an interesting mix of music, and it will be interesting to see the reaction.

Subject: RE: Blackgrass
From: GLoux
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 10:20 AM

The segregation is even more interesting when you consider that there is a good bit of gospel in bluegrass.

While not bluegrass, a while back at the Brandywine Mountain Music Convention (old-time), they got the Dixie Hummingbirds to do a Sunday Morning set that was phenomenal. They brought them back a couple years in a row...

-Greg

Subject: RE: Blackgrass
From: GUEST,Michael Morris
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 10:25 AM

And in the early 20th century there were black string bands like the Mississippi Sheiks, which certainly were an influence upon bluegrass.

Subject: RE: Blackgrass
From: BanjoRay
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 10:53 AM

Last weekend saw a Gathering in Boone, North Carolina, called Black Banjo Then and Now where a bunch of black and white people met to discuss the history of the banjo from it's African origins, the African influences on the playing styles and on the music. With black American banjo players like Tony Thomas, Sule Greg Wilson, Dr Joan Dickerson and Rhiannon Giddens, fiddler Joe Thompson and a superb black Old Time band called the Ebony Hillbillies meeting great white artists like Mike Seeger, George Gibson and Clarke Buehling. African akonting player Daniel Jatta and Swedish expert Ulf Jagfors gave superb demostrations and video of the current, now rare, African playing styles which relate so directly to the American Old Time clawhammer style of playing.
Details of the festival and some very interesting discussions and pictures can be found by joining the Black Banjo Then And Now group on Yahoo.com. This festival on black banjo made history last weekend - I wish I'd been there. I congratulate Tony Thomas of Florida for putting it all together.
Ray

Subject: RE: Blackgrass
From: BanjoRay
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 10:58 AM

I forgot - you can find the Yahoo black banjo group at Black Banjo group. And it doesn't matter if you're white - you won't have to use the rear entrance.

Ray

Subject: RE: Blackgrass
From: John Hardly
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 10:59 AM

Someone's bound to mention the ubiquitous recordings involving various bluegrass musicians (Nashville Bluegrass Band, Union Station, etc) who have recently recorded and toured with the Fairfield Four.

Subject: RE: Blackgrass
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 11:32 AM

Fascinating responses! I was especially interested in the black banjo, then and now. There's a very interesting book by Paul Oliver titled Songsters & Saints: Vocal Traditions on Race Records which covers the whole range of black music, from blues to medicine shows and a little bit of string band music. And then, there was DeFord Bailey who was a black harmonica player, and the first black regular on the Grand Ole Opry, during the time of Uncle Dave Macon.

One of the unusual directions I've been able to take my quartet is into areas where people aren't often exposed to black gospel. And, we've always received a very warm welcome. Bringing a bluegrass band into a black church sounds like fun to me (although the church where we're doing the concert has more white than black members, a lot of the audience that is coming are from black churches.)

My experience is that people generally respond to good music, even if it's unfamiliar to them.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Blackgrass
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 11:58 AM

Jerry, as one who is active in the bluegrass community in a large metropolitan area and has come into contact with musicians pretty much everywhere in a 100 mile area, it is amazing that there are zero blacks involved. Two weeks back I was at the largest Chicago area festival held in Naperville, Illinois where they come from 200 miles around and I saw one black lady there, a non-player who was having a good time listening.

Bluegrass and country music are still very much joined at the hip. I am familiar with Deford Bailey and the tragedy that was his Grand Ole Opry career. I believe only the old men you referred to and older country blacks from that era were interested in the white part of southern music. The old south is long gone in that respect, and I would think today's modern black youth and the generation before have distanced themselves as best as they could from that era, and probably just as well.

Subject: RE: Blackgrass
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 12:01 PM

Segregation or self-choice?

I usually think of segregation as something imposed by a power group, not as something where for cultural reasons a group tends not to reflect the demographics of the surrounding area.

~S~

Subject: RE: Blackgrass
From: GLoux
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 12:38 PM

Having just checked Websters, WYSIWYG is correct about the definition of segregation.

But whatever you call it, the result is the same.

-Greg

Subject: RE: Blackgrass
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 12:56 PM

You're right, Martin: I think some of this is a generational thing.
I wouldn't expect to find as much interest in bluegrass among southern blacks these days (although they may have more of an interest in country music because there are at least a handful of black country performers. And most young blacks (and many, many young whites) are so into rap and hip hop with a strong beat and contemporary urban concerns that I can't see how they'd be attracted to bluegrass, string band music or folk. Some of it is probably an urban/rural thing, too.

You're right too, Susan. The musical separation (not to use the word segregation) does reflect different cultures and interests (and tastes.) At the same time, it's hard to say that certain groups of people don't like a particular kind of music if they're rarely heard it. I hear groups like Black Eyed Peas who I suspect would like some of the old black jug band and string band music... if they haven't already heard it. Most younger blacks (under 50) give me a polite, but somewhat blank expression when I tell tham that I sing folk music. Some take the bull by the horns and say "what is folk music?"
And they aren't struggling to come up with the definitive definition. They have no idea what I'm talking about. I've found that when they hear it, and understand better that it includes blues and gospel, many of them enjoy it. They just don't hear it. Not that anybody does, other than us people who were immersed in it, in the 60's and 70's...

Jerry

Subject: RE: Blackgrass
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 01:05 PM

Not really-- with segregation per se, inviting a person of color wouldn't be the same kettle of fish at all.

"Segregation" is nominally under the control of the power group. This, however, seems more like a situation under the control of the people who organize/book/perform/attend. That usually has more to do with, do the folks already involved have any friends who are people of color, and what comes up when you think about inviting them to participate? Friends tend to want to do things together, which is a whole lot different from the approach, "Excuse me, but we don't have a lot of black people come to our event, can you come?" (Icky-- but people actually DO that, even if not in so many words.)

In the work I've done around race issues, whatever the particular presenting issue is, it usually boils down to relationships. For instance, if one is an organizer, does one personally know any African American artists to consider including? If one is an artist, does s/he know people of color to consider including in the band? If one enjoys attending, does one have a friend of color who maybe one had not thought would like to come?

If not (to any of the above), why not?

What keeps the color line (and other barriers) in place these days is usually a case of forgetting to think about ANY group that's under-represented (out of sight out of mind), and having unexamined discomfort about not knowing what is OK to do about that. So, overcoming that state of affairs requires thinking about it, and then looking to one's relationships.

~Susan
~Susan

Subject: RE: Blackgrass
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 01:06 PM

We cross-posted, Jerry. I was responding to, But whatever you call it, the result is the same.

~S~

Subject: RE: Blackgrass
From: GUEST,Scaramouche
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 01:20 PM

You can segragate yourself. It doesn't necesarily mean someone else does it.

Subject: RE: Blackgrass
From: Leadfingers
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 01:32 PM

There are not a lot of black OR Asian singers involved in Traditional music in UK either - There was a thread about that last year !! But
where I am off to tonight we get all sorts of Jazzy and Bluesy stuff with a wide racial mix The Brewery Tap in Brentford) and every one has a good time !

Subject: RE: Blackgrass
From: PoppaGator
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 01:39 PM

There have been a couple of interesting meetings of young (high-school-age) mostly-black music students from N.O. with mostly-white counterparts up in the mountains of western North Carolina. If 'm not mistaken, this project was initiated by faculty at NOCCA (New Orleans something-or-other for the Creative Arts), a nationally recognized high school for the performing and fine arts that has produced a lot of now-famous jazz musicians and a few prominent actors, plus plenty of less-famous classical musicians, dancers, painters, and writers.

At least one CD has resulted from this "BlueBrass" project. The Smokey-Mountain kids are mostly bluegrass pickers and the Orleanians are mostly brass-band players. The recording is commerically available and therefore is probably searchable on the Net under the title "Bluebrass."

An article I read not long ago in the local Gambit Weekly noted that both groups of kids started out completely unfamiliar with each other's respective musical genres, but that once they started playing, they discovered plenty of common ground and then inspired each other to explore entirely new directions.

Subject: RE: Blackgrass
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 02:02 PM

Bluebrass is not available through amzon.com... wonder about any other source. Hey, Poppa, if you read this, I see several CDs by the Bluebirds which from description sound funky/swampy. Wonder if anyone has heard their music..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Blackgrass
From: PoppaGator
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 02:41 PM

Here's a link to the Gambit story on the BlueBrass project:

http://www.bestofneworleans.com/dispatch/2004-08-17/cover_story.html

I may have been mistaken about a recording being available. Or, maybe it available only locally ~ if so, the store most likely to stock it would be the Louisiana Music Factory on Decatur Street, who may have a website...

Check out the photo of VASSAR CLEMENTS playng with the kids!

Subject: RE: Blackgrass
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 02:51 PM

Hey,! What a great site.. Lousiana Music Factory. The have a Bluebrass CD.. not sure it's the one you're referring to, Poppa.

Man, I gotta get to N'Awleans.

Think I'll put on Trying To Get To New Orleans by the Tractors... great, great song if you haven't heard it...

Jerry

Subject: RE: Blackgrass
From: PoppaGator
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 02:54 PM

Also: A link to the BlueBrass project CD mentioned in the article: not the kids, but a group of grownup pros:

http://www.louisianamusicfactory.com/showoneprod.asp?ProductID=3823

(Actually, Troy Andrews aka "Trombone Shorty," is a very accomplished professional musician, but not really a grownup; he graduates from high school either this year or next.)

Note that sound clips of two cuts are provded...

Subject: RE: Blackgrass
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 03:38 PM

The two sample tracks sound great.. gonna order the CD. Reminds me of a Bob Brookmeyer (who played valve trombone) favorite album of mine, Traditionalism Revisited. (Kinda off subject, but, hey.)

Jerry

Subject: RE: Blackgrass
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 04:29 PM

There are black musicians on both sides of the "hardcore bluegrass divide". There are folks like Sparky and Rhonda Rucker doing pre-bluegrass Appalachian-oriented folk music. And there are guys like Bela Fleck's bandmates Victor Wooten and Future Man on the progressive, newgrass end. It seems to be just straight-ahead bluegrass that isn't attracting much in the way of black participation. Ya don't suppose the confederate flags that seem to festoon every tenth campsite at a typical bluegrass festival has anything to do with it, do ya?

Subject: RE: Blackgrass
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 04:49 PM

There is a group called the "Ebony Hillbillies" that's essentially a bluergrass group. They performed at Mystic a couple of years back.

Subject: RE: Blackgrass
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 05:06 PM

Right, Bee-Dubya-ell. I saw the Flecktones at Grey Fox Festival in NY state. Maybe it says something about where I'm coming from that I forgot all about Victor Wooten and Future Man being black. And I have also seen Sparky and Rhonda Rucker. In fact, when Jerry asked the questions in this thread, I ran through a mental picture of festivals and people and jams and tried to focus on whether anyone at any of those was black. Not something I typically think about, which may or may not be a good thing. In fact, I ESCAPE from many of the issues of contemporary society by going off to these festivals, and suffer re-entry when we get home and turn on the news and remember that there's still a war going on in ...... (the country keeps changing) and there's still all the usual hell on the streets and trouble all around. At the festival there are the occasional issues, and maybe it's a nice big sand pile to hide my head in...

I saw some confederate flags and t-shirts at a festival we went to in Virginia, but have never noticed any in the northeast where we come from. But then, maybe I just didn't notice...

Subject: RE: Blackgrass
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 05:13 PM

Jerry, just chalk it up to cultural divide. I don't see too many white guys doing rap although there are a few. there will always be more whites emulating black culture than the other way around.

Personnally, it does not make much difference to me.

Subject: RE: Blackgrass
From: Stewie
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 10:11 PM

I have an interesting 3CD set, produced by the Country Music Foundation and issued by Warners some time ago now: 'From Where I Stand: The Black Experience in Country Music'. No 'blackgrass', but a useful overview. Surprisingly for such projects, I find that it is still available [the price is much more than I paid - I must have bought it in a sale]. Full details are available here: CLICK.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Blackgrass
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 11:17 PM

Stewie:

I have the same collection.... very interesting to hear...

Jerry

Subject: RE: Blackgrass
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 07:50 AM

Buddy and Tina Wright are a brother and sister act from Texas. They are very young, very black, and they perform bluegrass. Most of their following is in Europe, where they tour regularly.