BS: 10,000 arrested in US today

Subject: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 06:30 PM

Operation Falcon is the name of the coordinated arrest of 10,000 Americans with outstanding warrants.

There have been other mass arrests staged in the US of late. In LA an amnesty program for Muslims ended in 200 arrests. In a Texas Walmart parking lot hundreds were arrested by local police for "loitering".

Along with the practice of rounding people up to be put in free speech zones I see a general pattern of training various police agencies in the practice of mass arrests.

In DC a single individual with an anti Bush sign in the park can be arrested/detained for parading without a license.

The similarities to 3rd Reich practices in the US today are shocking.

"It happens little by little like drops of anethesia down a tube and it doesn't hit you until some new policy hits you personally".

German citizen from 1939.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 06:42 PM

"coordinated arrest of 10,000 Americans with outstanding warrants. "

The news coverage I have seen on this lists drug dealers, sexual predators, and violent criminals all with outstanding warrants. WHy shouldn't they be arrested?
Mary

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 06:43 PM

The Rex 84 Program
Operation Cable Splicer
Garden Plot

You wanna know why Don's worried and maybe why you should be too? Check out the three 'programs' above.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: open mike
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 06:45 PM

what is the word from the vigilante border patrol?
i remember hearing that there was some sort of
volunteer force forming to guard the U.S./Mexican border?

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 06:46 PM

Legitimate mass arrests will act as a precedent to accept more mass arrests of a more dubious nature.

Otherwise why tie up all your man power on one particular day?

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 06:48 PM

mike, Bush called them irresponsible vigilantes.

Cheap near slave labor is good for business. Homeland security be damned.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 06:56 PM

Donuel is entirely correct to be concerned, very concerned about the "mass arrest". This isn't about whether or not these folks were criminals, It's about the idea of "mass arrests"... Hey, like who is going to come back and say that the cops didn't know where these folks were the day before, or week before, or month of even years... Heck, as far as I'm concerned it is criminal for law enforcement folks to not arrest criminals once they know where to find 'um...

Yeah, I am concerned... Tghis crap went down in the 30's in Germany and people got desensitized to it until "they came for me"...

Yeah, I know there are folks here who think we on progrressive side are overstating our positions... Not really...

Think about it...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 07:00 PM

FYI and consideration

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 07:11 PM

And if you think the above is bullshit, which I am sure many will, then do the following:

Ask your Senators and Congressmen/women about

FEMA and the REX-84 program. Also ask about the following. Please let me know the answers you get I would be interested in hearing.

Operation Cable Splicer
Garden Plot

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 07:12 PM

Don't argue--ASK.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 07:29 PM

Does 7-WTC mean anything to people here?

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 07:29 PM

If not, why not?

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 07:40 PM

And last for the day. Sleep well.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 08:00 PM

"All this was inspired by the principle - which is quite true in itself - that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods. It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there may be some other explanation. For the grossly impudent lie always leaves traces behind it, even after it has been nailed down, a fact which is known to all expert liars in this world and to all who conspire together in the art of lying. These people know only too well how to use falsehood for the basest purposes."

Little quote from a translation by James Murphy. I am sure you know what the original work was.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 08:16 PM

Being reminded of the obvious can help break the near hypnotic spell of media propoganda and selective censorship.

The obvious similar propoganda event of the 3rd Reich was the Reichstad building fire, after which Germany remained in a constant state of emergency.

Hitler suspends civil rights vs. our Patriot Act.

Newspapers in Germany calling for war was hysterical in rhetoric and misleading in facts.

Soldiers in Germany took an oath directly to Adolf Hitler.
vs.
Republicans were made to sign an oath to George Bush prior to admittence to rallies. The pray for Bush campaign was initiated during the Iraq war and included in the army fikd manual.

Many more of the initial similarities are more streamlined today but there are still the good old fashooined Nazi propogandists like AM radio Mike Savage who call for the arrest of all liberals on sedition charges and classifies any who dissent against Bush and have a liberal agenda are mentally ill and must be dealt with as such.

You may say it can't happen here but I say it is already 20% done.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 08:22 PM

It's a helluva lot more than that done, IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 08:27 PM

Where's Dougie?

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 08:29 PM

Perhaps brucie.
We are a Crystal nacht and the assasination of all RS members away from a massive war society.
Reducing the economy down to a level when the promise of bread and work is more meaningful than a free college education also aids the descent to fascism.

Bobert has alot of facts the right wing has tenderized anyone who brings them up as being crazy or a traitor.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 08:47 PM

Bobert, he's standing proudly on the bow of the good ship Skytanic shouting,

"I'm KING of the world!!!"

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 09:05 PM

I think it was Donuel who asked:

Otherwise why tie up all your man power on one particular day?

For the obvious reason that if you don't do it at the same time the "targets" can move around and avoid the program.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 09:13 PM

What did I miss here, CarolC???

Been a long day so maybe....

Nevermind...

B:)

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 09:16 PM

The good ship Sky(is falling)tanic, Bobert.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 09:37 PM

Here in the River City megalopolis (pop. 1,000,000) the dragnet went on for seven days, not one day. Police acted upon 500 warrants and made 140 arrests. They discovered that 119 fugitives had died or were in prison somewhere.

Doesn't sound like trouble to me - sounds like co-operation and intelligent law enforcement. Computers were a great help.

500 warrants divided by 1,000,000 population. Doesn't sound like "mass" anything to me.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: GUEST,Eric
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 09:54 PM

As an American who has been a victim of both violent crime (a street mugging) and nonviolent but nonetheless upsetting crime (a burglarly) in a city where I used to live (but no longer do, for obvious reasons), and as one who would rather not be preyed upon by the sort of folks who were rounded up in Operation Falcon or have them free to prey on others, I have absolutely no problem with it. I always suspect that most of the people who are concerned about the rights of criminals have never been the victim of one. Was this a publicity stunt? Of course, but one aimed at potential perpetrators in the hope of making at least a few of them think twice before making someone else a victim.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 10:13 PM

"I always suspect that most of the people who are concerned about the rights of criminals have never been the victim of one"

The folks here speaking about mass arrest are not concerned with "the rights of criminals". Rather, it is concern for the rights of Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: GUEST,Paranoid Android
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 10:31 PM

Presumably the "Rights of (law abiding) Americans" are the same as elsewhere. If there is a warrant for the arrest of a non-law-abiding person then that warrant should be executed. What's the problem in that?

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 11:02 PM

No problem with that. None at all.

However, what happens when judges sign warrants for the arrest of innocent people or people who have expressed displeasure with the government? No crime committed. So, what are the camps for?

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 11:14 PM

See list at bottom of page. See also if you can visit one near YOU.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 09:52 AM

The comic book Judge Dread was right!

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 11:15 AM

Brucie said:

However, what happens when judges sign warrants for the arrest of innocent people or people who have expressed displeasure with the government? No crime committed. So, what are the camps for?

Bad arrests or bad warrants is/are a different subject from a mass arrest campaign.

These, as I understand it, were all preexisting warrants, which had accumulated in the normal course of things. The open warrant cleanup campaign does not imply any greater proportion of bad warrants than would be found in ordinary piecemeal enforcement.

Yes, we (that is, all right-thinking people) should be aware and concerned about the occasional bad warrant or the occasional bad arrest, both of which will inevitably occur. But don't muddy the waters by confusing that with the coordinated campaign.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 02:19 PM

DaveO: My remark was in response to a guest. Please don't you conflate the issues either.

Thanks.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 02:25 PM

I checked out Brucie's link. I can vouch for the existence of the Florence, Arizona camp.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 02:36 PM

Can anyone vouch for any others?

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 02:37 PM

I'm glad you said that, Ebbie. I was wondering if anyone besides the guy in the link had seen these camps. I'm with brucie on this one. I'd like to know what they are for (without having to find out from the inside of one of them).

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 02:43 PM

Carol: Ask not for whom the camps are. They are for thee (and like-minded people).

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 03:04 PM

Yeah Yeah yeah. In your fantasy camps there is nothing but sequestration and mind control.

Check out Rainbow Six by Tom Clancy. The rabid environmentalists there try to kill off 99.99% of all humanity.

By comparing your imaginary threat to his, I'd say your nonexistent concerns are less than his nonexistent concerns.

Hey, but thanks for showing you care.

"As I was going up the stair
I met a man who wasn't there.
He wasn't there again today,
I wish I wish he'd go away."
Hughes Mearns

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 03:06 PM

I'd like to know what the "official" explanation is for these camps.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 03:08 PM

Did you look a the pictures, robomatic?

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 03:17 PM

http://www.fema.gov/library/eo12148.shtm

FEMA can over-ride Congress if/when the Executive declares a national emergency.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 03:19 PM

Section 6. This Order is effective July 15, 1979.

Jimmy Carter
THE WHITE HOUSE

July 20, 1979.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 03:19 PM

Robomatic: Go see how close you can get to this one. Let me know how it works out.

Houlton - WWII German/Italian POW camp. Under renovation.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 03:19 PM

Right, BB.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 03:24 PM

PS

I am NOT about to be sidetracked by this kinda shit. Go visit a camp near you. Tell us about the reception you get. Are the people there civilian security guards or military types? Let me know.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 03:45 PM

All that order does is transfer the EMERGENCY PREPAREDNESS functions from three departments to FEMA. A reorganization of powers that already existed. So what?

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 03:50 PM

So explain the camps.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 03:53 PM

brucie,

"Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: brucie - PM
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 03:17 PM

http://www.fema.gov/library/eo12148.shtm

FEMA can over-ride Congress if/when the Executive declares a national emergency. "

My quote was from *your* clicky. Are we going to criticise the Bush administration for the bombing of Hiroshima, now?

I make no statement nor judgement about the *present* condition or use of any camps- I was just pointing out the fact that you were complaining about an executive order NOT written by the present, nor even any Republican, administration.

*****************************************
Executive Order 12148

Federal Emergency Management

July 20, 1979

By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and laws of the United States of America, including the Federal Civil Defense Act of 1950, as amended (50 U.S.C. App. 2251 et seq.), the Disaster Relief Act of 1970, as amended (42 U.S.C. Chapter 58 note), the Disaster Relief Act of 1974 (88 Stat. 143; 42 U.S.C. 5121 et seq.), the Earthquake Hazards Reduction Act of 1977 (42 U.S.C. 7701 et seq.), Section 4 of Public Law 92-385 (86 Stat. 556), Section 43 of the Act of August 10, 1956, as amended (50 U.S.C. App. 2285), the National Security Act of 1947, as amended, the Defense Production Act of 1950, as amended (50 U.S.C. App. 2061 et seq.), Reorganization Plan No. 1 of 1958, Reorganization Plan No. 1 of 1973, the Strategic and Critical Materials Stock Piling Act, as amended (50 U.S.C. 98 et seq.), Section 202 of the Budget and Accounting Procedures Act of 1950 (31 U.S.C. 581c), and Section 301 of Title 3 of the United States Code, and in order to transfer emergency functions to the Federal Emergency Management Agency, it is hereby ordered as follows:

Section 1. Transfers or Reassignments

1-1. Transfer or Reassignment of Existing Functions.

.....


*********************************************************************

If this is a sidetrack, why did YOU post the clicky? AZre we NOT supposed to read the references you post?

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 03:59 PM

All I really know - and this is from 30 years ago - is that off a state highway, there is a paved road that goes slightly uphill and out of sight. The road to the installation leads to a very tall fence-enclosed area with low buildings that you can see from different angles. Not far up the road are black on white lettered signs: NO ENTRANCE. NO TRESPASSING. WARNING.

In the town of Florence, I asked several people about it. They seemed pretty much OK with it, except they didn't rally want to discuss it. They said, It's a government camp. They said, It's for use in the event of emergency. They said, It's for if they have to round up people. They said, You can't go there.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 04:11 PM

BB, you are too smart not to connect the dots. There have been subsequent Executive Orders that 'enhance' EO 12148. If you want links to them I will provide them. The upshoot? FEMA can now over-ride Congress. There are lotsa camps being built. The camps will be able to contain hundreds of thousands of people. Hell, are there really that many terrorists in the US? Or is government now going to change the definition of terrorist to include anyone who disagrees with it? Or speaks against it?

The camps. Visit a camp and tell me how it goes.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 04:22 PM

brucie,

The government, WHOEVER is in power at the time, need only declare martial law to get those powers. This is as it has been for decades, if not centuries. I have no problem with your concerns, and the dangers posed by arbitrary government actions, BUT you should at least acknowledge that the powers being used are ones NOT created by the Bush Administration. You IMPLY that this administration is in some way different from those that have been in control in the past- THAT is what you need to demonstrate to make a valid criticsm.

Shall I posulate that the Hillary Clinton administration will round up all the children and send them to re-education camps to give them the "proper" upbringing, and then declare it to be fact?


HAve you visited a camp? What IS the government explaination? Where WILL all the people evacuated under martial law from cities where biological or other WMDs have been used by terrorist be sent to? How WILL the government keep them from spreading some bio-WMD ( ie, contagious disease) throughout the entire country?

Has anyone been rounded up, yet? It seems like they better get busy, since in another three years they will lose the oppurtunity to do so....

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 04:22 PM

What concerns me IS the next three years.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 04:25 PM

You criticise if they take steps to plan for terrorist attacks, yet blame them for not being prepared. It seems to me like no matter WHAT is done, you will treat it as the wrong thing to have done.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 04:26 PM

I think it would be educational for people to go visit some of these camps. Just see. Tell me about your welcome. The camps are key to whatever the hell is going down with a takeover of the American Government. Can I dot i's and t's? No. Will you simply go see if you can get close to a camp near you? If not, then you might share some of my concerns.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 04:28 PM

Answer this: do YOu think there are sufficient terrorists in the USA to require the numbers of camps that have been built or renovated? Answer me that.I am beginning to think you're more paranoid than I am.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 04:32 PM

"The camps are key to whatever the hell is going down with a takeover of the American Government. "


THAT is what you do not present any evidence about. I have given you a reason for the government to be working on those camps- How do you imply that only your opinion about them is correct? It MAY be, but you have less evidence than I do ( see FEMA publications for mass evacuaction of cites, Civil Defense documents of the 1950's, 60's, 70's, & 80's.


There are a number of government fcilities I do not, as an ordinary citizen, have access to. Try visiting ANY nuclear power plant these days.

I have no problem with your concewrns- just your assertions that possibility is the same as proof.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 04:33 PM

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 04:34 PM

"Answer this: do YOu think there are sufficient terrorists in the USA to require the numbers of camps that have been built or renovated? Answer me that.I am beginning to think you're more paranoid than I am. "

No, but that is NOT what I have given as a reason for the camps in my post.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 04:45 PM

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 04:48 PM

None of us have PROOF. But when I connect the dots, I don't like the picture I see. That's the way it is, BB.

As a further thing to add, Canada too has camps. NORTH AMERICA HAS CAMPS. Canada is not on any terrorist list and we don't have large disasters wherein we have to mass evacuate cities. So why the camps her? I ask myself the same question I ask you. And neither of us have answers. Just dots that we perceive differently. I don't think you are necessarily wrong. Nor do I think our governments have OUR best interests at heart.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 04:56 PM

For the curious.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 05:15 PM

When I connect the dots of what the liberals here say, I see an attempt to let a minority, because of a self-percieved view of being "infinately more comapssionate, wise and intellegent..." become dictators of what the nation can do. If you do not believe the government has OUR best interests at heart, why should I believe that the self-declared "better" people have mine, or the majority of the country's even in their thoughts?

Bush has sworn to uphold the constitution of the United States. He has certain responsibilities as defined by the constitution. The people telling me he shopuld be removed because THEY do not like his actions have made no oath, and seem to be more interested in pushing their own agenda than even the far Right.

I do not agree with all the decisions of this administration- But that does not mean that they should be removed.

A healthy suspicion of the opposing party is fine- but I think that the liberals have gone even farther than the ultra-right in being biased. I do not, IMO, feel that we would be as safe as we are (which is not what I would LIKE) if we were under a Democratic administration. Others may differ- that is fine, but the more conservative side WON the election, which was the means that we change our government leaders. I lived through eight years of Clinton: Liberals can just try to elect their own person in the future. MOST of the dictatorial talk I hear is from the LEFT, demanding that the entire country do only what a minority of those voting support. Had they run a candidate that appealed to a more moderate base, the Dems would have run- It is not that the majority supports everything that Bush does, but that even fewer support what the Democratic candidate seemed to represent. This is called "politics"

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/jamieson/198304_robert05.html

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 05:18 PM

I would like to know, if the camps are for people who, in the context of a terrorist attack, get infected with biological warfare agents, why there is so much secrecy and heavy guarding of the camps now? Why are people being threatened if they look at or take pictures of the camps?

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 05:20 PM

I am not suggesting that Bush be removed. I am saying that it does not matter WHO is in power. The President no longer controls things. So don't get sidetracked with Bush, or Clinton, or anyone else. None of those people are the issue. The issue is this: you are about to have your country taken over. That is the issue. Bush matters not at all.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 05:26 PM

CarolC,

For the same reason that people taking pictures of ANY secure facility are "threatened" - IT IS AGAINST THE LAW. Whether the camps SHOULD be secure is a matter for debate- but the fact is that there is a policy not to allow pictures of any secure facility, because it endangers the ability to HAVE a secure facility. Perhaps you think that we should publish the guard schedules at the various nuclear plants, so that you can know who is in the guard post at a given time?

We HAVE been attacked by terrorists: We may have thwarted additioanl attacks- it is NOT in the best interest of the people of this country to provide information to those trying to harm us as to how to do so better. I would hope that the means that protect us fron attack, or preparations to deal with those attacks, would be at least as protected as my personnal information and records- Are YOU willing to open all your records to the entire world? Bank accounts, health information, court records? I WANT to see some degree of limitation of information, especially that which directly affects my well-being.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 05:28 PM

brucie,

HOW is the country being taken over?

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 05:33 PM

beardedbruce, I don't see it as being about politics or about one administration or another. They're all either crooks and criminals, or puppets. But I know what the agenda is. They have spelled it out quite clearly in the Project for the New American Century. Their goal is world domination. This is what they, themselves, have stated as their goal, and all of the actions of every administration that I know anything about have moved us incrementally, and inexorably toward the achievement of that goal.

I think I know why Jimmy Carter has been working so hard for philanthropic programs since he left office. It's because he's doing pennance for his complicity in these crimes against humanity. I don't blame him. I'd be working very hard doing pennance too if I were him.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 05:40 PM

My bank accounts concern only me and my bank, beardedbruce. Not a good analogy. Those camps are being constructed and renovated in secret. We are entitled to transparency in our government. That's what makes ours a "government by the consent of the governed". To keep secrets like those camps violates the core fundamental principle of our system of government and our way of life.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 05:42 PM

CarolC,

You are certainly entitled to your opinions, as I am to mine.

"They're all either crooks and criminals, or puppets."
... no real arguement here- but I tried to support the ones who, IMO would have policies that protected the citizens in the most effective manner. A judgement call that each of us should make, and not use a knee-jerk reaction of "Conservative-BAD" ( Or "Liberal-BAD")that seems to be the norm here on Mudcat.



"But I know what the agenda is. They have spelled it out quite clearly in the Project for the New American Century. Their goal is world domination. This is what they, themselves, have stated as their goal,"

I do not agree with this, any more than you agree that the Palestinians are trying to destroy Israel... If I postulate a conspiracy, that does not make it true- One would need to provide some evidence to support what one has stated to be "FACT"

You ARE entitled to your opinion- but I need not agree with it.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 05:43 PM

Beardedbruce,

Given the number of 'arguments' (read fights) we have had in the past, I wish to say something that will shock you. I have the highest regard for your intelligence--for your ability to think.I have read lots of your sonnets, and I also appreciated your views on the asteroid and the potential difficulties in that area. I see that you are very human, very caring and that occasionally you keep that as a private part of your character. Cool by me.

To say again: you are very smart. I don't pretend to be as smart as you (OK, sometimes I pretend). I have nothing to gain by writing about something I can't prove. And specifically, I have nothing to gain by telling you any of the above. I simply want you to understand this from me. I do not care about Bush, Martin (PM of Canada), Blair, et.al. They are pawns; fronts. The world is on the verge of a very big sociological/demographic/economic change. These world leaders have very little power themselves. They do as they are told to do.

Let me ask you this. Do you truly think that Bush is smart enough to design those Ececutive Orders? In other words, do you really think 'someone' isn't pulling his strings? If it helps, I'll put it this way: All world leaders have their strings pulled by _______________. If we can fill in the blank with a proper noun, we will likely inhabit the same camp together. This ain't about Bush anymore. That has been a smokescreen. It has worked. Liberals, conservatives, democrats and republicans distrust each other. We have been divided. I wonder what comes next.

A good friend of mine said the following after gun registration was enacted in Canada: "What is the government going to do that I don't like?" Ask yourself the same question. One doesn't build prisons on the presumption that the crime rate will rise significantly. One builds prisons to keep people in. The question that begs is this: Why does the US government need enough 'jail' space for hundreds of thousands of people? Why?

If you visit a camp, please let me know what you find. I am going to do my best to visit one or two in this country. I will return the favour.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 05:47 PM

CarolC- (crossposted)

If the information about the camps would increase the hazard to the citizens who might be using them after a terrorist attack, it is the REQUIREMENT of the government to keep that information restricted. That is why we have elected representatives to acertain what needs to kept secret- Congress has oversight on things like this.


"We are entitled to transparency in our government. "

NOT in the case where the exposure of the information would be directly harmful to the interests of the citizens of the country. Classified information is a reality that exists.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 06:01 PM

FYI

Last for a while, anyway. Please explain the following--not to me, but to yourself.

The Rex 84 Program
Operation Cable Splicer
WTC 7

Thanks, all.

PS Robomatic: I read Rainbow Six years ago. Not one of his best.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 06:01 PM

It's not my opinion. It IS a fact. I am simply passing on to you what they, themselves, have stated as their goal. It's all spelled out quite clearly in their own words, in their own publication by their own organization right here (in case you haven't figured it out yet... they wrote this document themselves about what they have planned/do plan to do)...

Project for the new American Century

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 06:04 PM

brucie,

Thank you for the comments...


"The question that begs is this: Why does the US government need enough 'jail' space for hundreds of thousands of people? Why?"

I have given one possible reason, as an area to restrain those exposed to some contagious disease. I do not insist that is the only, or even the correct answer, but you continue to ignore even that possibility. I do not KNOW- and it seems likely that none here do, or will in the near future. I can see reasons NOT to allow information about them to be public knowledge- and I DO have concerns that Congress has performed it's mandated oversight.

One can always assume that there is some conspiricy- but that does not demonstrate it's existence. Perhaps it is all being caused by "Higher Beings" for some purpose beyound our comprehension? Does that make you feel any better? If not, you obviously lack enlightenment and the proper world view..... ( sarcasm)

Am I concerned about the loss of liberty?

YES- but I see it as much in the limitations of free speech on campuses and the elimination of 2nd amendment rights to gun ownership as I do in the government policies since 9/11. If the liberals, who supposedly are in favor of thr rights given us by the Constitution, are willing to remove my rights because "times have changed", and "it would be safer not to have guns around" , where is the protection for ANY of the Bill of Rights? "Free speech might provoke unrest- have to limit it for the greater good"- and only those religions that we are comfortable with should be allowed...
Look at what the US did to the Mormons- do you really think that
any religion would be "safe" once the Bill of Rights was shown to be "flexible"?

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 06:05 PM

Hi, Carol. I read that document about 18 months ago. Interesting that Paul Wolfowitz is one of the authors, and it is equally interesting that he is now the leader of the World Bank.

PFTNAC reads like a blueprint for world domination. Plain and simple.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 06:09 PM

BB, I too have a great respect for the American Constitution and Bill of Rights. My worry is that they are about to be usurped. I understand how much you love the USA. I feel that way about Canada. I fear we are about to lose the places we love.

As to the comments: You are certainly deserving of them IMO and I mean them, too.

I have to get for a while. Hope to see y'all later.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 06:15 PM

CarolC,

Are you stating that the US should NOT act in what it percieves as it's own self-interest?


I presume you have some proof that this group is the secret cabal controling the present government?

" But I know what the agenda is. They have spelled it out quite clearly in the Project for the New American Century. Their goal is world domination. This is what they, themselves, have stated as their goal, and all of the actions of every administration that I know anything about have moved us incrementally, and inexorably toward the achievement of that goal."

WHO are THEY?

IMO, the Clinton administration did this country no favors in it's military policies.

The FACT is that the Palestinians have declared their goal is the destruction of Israel- SO you will now agree that they are the ones at fault in the Middle East? ( rhetorical question)

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 06:24 PM

It's really odd that I find myself feeling this way, but lately (last couple of years), I've been feeling more afraid of the US government than of the militia movement. I used to know people who were interested in (although not directly involved with) the militia movement. I thought they were all crackpots and gun nuts, and they scared me. (I lived in an area with an active militia movement at the time.) But these days I find myself feeling less afraid of them than of my own government.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 06:29 PM

What the government sees as being in its own interests may not be the same thing as what is in the best interests of people of this country, beardedbruce. And that is what scares me. Because I see the government regularly exhibiting behavior that demonsrates to me that what they really care about is accumulating and holding on to power, at the expense of the citizens of this country, and with no regard for what is best for our country as a democracy, rather than as a seat of empire.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 06:31 PM

Their names are on the document, beardedbruce.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 06:41 PM

I was stationed at Grissom AFB, and I know there are high barbed wire fences and lights, but they weren't designed to keep people IN. I've been on Ft Benjamin Harrison, and spent time in the camp for exercises. I don't remember large amounts of concertina wire. If there had been, I'd remember it since I likely would have had some close, personal contact with it. There were nests of rattlesnakes.

When you aren't familiar with a place, whether a fence points in or out depends on what someone tells you AND whether you believe them. I'm fairly suspicious of anything someone tries to get me to believe, no matter which side it's coming from. For instance, "FEMA detention facility". What's the difference between a detention facility and a refugee camp? The answer is that the true difference is in how it's used, when it's used.

As for why there are so many FEMA facilities, they plan where to set up camps if local or regional disasters occur.

There isn't open land anywhere in the US that couldn't be turn into a detention camp with concertina wire and armed guards. There isn't a military facility or kids' camp that couldn't be easily adapted. This concentration camp page is intended to feed off paranoia and boost the membership of anti-government militia groups. It's also somewhat of a diversion from things that are more provable, even if they don't seem quite so evil.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 06:56 PM

Secret refugee camps seem like a reasonable thing to me. Maybe you're right.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: GUEST,CarolC
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 07:41 PM

Secret refugee camps? That sounds more convoluted and improbable than the other scenario. We know where they are. They can't be defended on the basis of nobody knowing where they are. So why is their purpose being kept secret?

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 07:52 PM

I just re-thought that remark. Wouldn't make lotsa sense for refugee camps to be kept secret, would it.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: DougR
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 07:55 PM

Arghhhhhhhh! Run for your life! The sky is definitely falling. Ten thousand fugitives are arrested and the liberals are scared to death. Just be glad they are off the street.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 08:12 PM

Well, Doug, at least we have you to clarify the mystery for us, and for that I am grateful.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 09:09 PM

brucie,

If there were several thousand contagious people who, if let loose in the general population, would cause the death of hundreds of thousands, would YOU want the exact location and details of the place known to the entire world, like the terrorists who would have exposed them in the first place?

The fact that the general location is know, but details are not is in accordance with the ongoing ( ie, has been in place for longer than most of us have been alive) guidelines for secure facilities.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 09:18 PM

That is true, BB. Given the scenario you posit, I would agree.

Now, about

The Rex 84 Program
Operation Cable Splicer
WTC 7

Have you had a chance to look this stuff up?

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 09:29 PM

The Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), founded 1979 to the Civil Defense program, answers to the President, via the National Security Council. A Miami Herald article published 5 July 1987 reported that U.S. Marine Lt. Col. Oliver North, then employed to draw up national security contingency plans, often met then FEMA director Louis O. Giuffrida between 1982 and 1984. They allegedly discussed FEMA's role in the event of civil unrest and the imposition of martial law. Giuffrida produced a plan for mass roundup and imprisonment of subversives, recycled from a plan he had devised in 1970 for the Army War College in case of an uprising of black militants.

The Miami Herald got a copy of the 2 Aug 1984 memo detailing the plan, to be included in an Executive Order or National Security Directive that President Reagan was supposed to sign. According to various right-wing web pages, this is NSDD 58. The Herald story says it's unclear whether it was signed.

REX-84, according to the Winter 1990 (#33) issue of the Covert Action Information Bulletin, was a series of simulations designed to coordinate the various agencies, civilian and military, needed under the above arrangement. One of these wargames was called REX-84/Night Train.

Operation Cable Splicer and Garden Plot are the two sub programs which will be implemented once the Rex 84 program is initiated for its proper purpose. Garden Plot is the program to control the population. Cable Splicer is the program for an orderly takeover of the state and local governments by the federal government. FEMA is the executive arm of the coming police state and thus will head up all operations. The Presidential Executive Orders already listed on the Federal Register also are part of the legal framework for this operation.



But of course, the government has contingency plans for just about everything, like a nuclear strike on Canada, or Japan, and the invasion of New Zealand, or the Vatican. There are a lot of people whose job it is to think of the unthinkable, and come up with a plan- The FAILURE to do this in one case was the goverment's weakness on 9/11. Just because there is a plan to show HOW we could do it does not imply an intent to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 09:53 PM

Beautiful, isn't it? It can all be explained with very logical and understandable 'arguments'. (One of the exercises involved a public school.)

WTC 7 is a bit more difficult to explain than that.

WTC 7

Neat how everything is so tight and all the WTC debris is gone, huh? Gone far away. No way to check for anything. No way to check for residue of explosives in the WTC 7 structure. No way to study the materials involved. AND, cleaned up so quickly, too. Almost like--well, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 10:16 PM

way too efficient for the government- sounds like the NWO, to me...

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 10:28 PM

The camp in Alaska. Supposed to be big. Why? Not enough people IN Alaska to have to have a camp that size. Whether that's sick people or people detained because a judge has determined that they represent a 'terrorist' danger to the US. That definition has becaome a moving target, BTW. However, if Americans are comfortable with it, then I guess a Canadian national should shut up, right?

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 10:47 PM

U.S. plans to invade Canada after the First World War? This is one of the most bizarre stories I've come across on the Internet, and the most bizarre part is that it's true. The U.S. military really did develop a "Joint Army and Navy Basic War Plan--Red" in the 1920s and '30s, and it really did include provisions for an invasion of Canada by the United States.

The document was declassified in 1974, so this isn't really a new story, but there has been some hoopla about it lately. Concerns in some quarters notwithstanding, the whole thing was just a theoretical exercise in military planning. The brass would have made better use of their resources planning for a war with Germany, but that wasn't politically expedient. They reasoned that planning for unlikely wars was better than no planning at all. War Plan Red was never intended to be put into action except in the event of a war with the United Kingdom, an eventuality that everyone would agree was highly unlikely after about 1900.

In the color codes used at that time, "Red" referred not to Canada (that was "Crimson"), but to the United Kingdom. The proposed invasion of Canada wasn't an end in itself; it was just the easiest way to hurt the U.K. The plan called for quickly seizing the key port of Halifax to prevent British resupply; cutting communication between eastern and western Canada by capturing Winnipeg; securing bridgeheads near Buffalo, Detroit, and Sault Ste. Marie; and attacking Quebec overland from New England. If everything went according to plan, the U.S. military hoped to take the Great Lakes region and St. Lawrence valley before moving on the prairies and British Columbia. Later when U.S. naval forces were built up, they might be able to take Bermuda and Britain's Caribbean possessions on the road toward victory.

But there would be a price to pay for any such war. Planners essentially wrote off the Philippines, Guam, and Samoa if the British tried to take them early in the war. Planners also anticipated a possible invasion of the U.S. Pacific coast by an allied force from Britain, Australia, and New Zealand. The last two unfairly had to share the color Scarlet, despite there being plenty of shades of red available for everyone. Who wouldn't want to read about the army of Fuchsia or the navy of Salmon? It just goes to show you that U.S. military planners were a bunch of Maroons.

War Plan Red wasn't the first contingency plan for a war with Britain that included an invasion of Canada. It was just the best known and (as far as we know) last. There had been others over the previous decades, many of them submitted to the Military Information Division by military officers working on their own time. War Plan Red was one of many "color plans" developed in a fairly systematic way in the 1920s and '30s. Except for "Orange" (war with Japan), the plans were primarily academic exercises, lacking detail and offering only broad outlines of strategy. The plans were an outgrowth of military reorganizations that had led to the creation of the U.S. Army War College (1903) and the U.S. Army War Plans Division (1921). Planning capability having been established, the military figured its planners had better get in some practice. The result was a dramatic increase in formal planning for various military contingencies, most of them unlikely.

The idea of systematically developing contingency plans was borrowed from the Prussian-dominated German military, which had been doing similar work since the previous century. Generally the plans weren't requested by civilian authorities (which would indicate an expectation of putting them into practice) but were prepared by the military on its own. However, the plans would be on hand in case the civilian authorities wanted them. There is no evidence that War Plan Red or any other twentieth-century plan for the invasion of Canada was requested by civilian authorities.

Much of the Army's work on Red was done in the mid-1920s. It evidently didn't attract much attention from the Navy until about 1930, because the admirals were preoccupied with Orange before that. They would be preoccupied with Orange again after that too; the period around 1930 was a brief respite from work on Orange, which was largely finished but would soon need to be updated.

Other color plans included "White" (domestic uprising), "Green" (war with Mexico), "Gray" (war with any one of the Caribbean republics), and "Purple" (war in Central America). One scenario pitted the U.S. against the combined forces of France (Gold), Canada, and Britain. Another (Red-Orange) pitted the U.S. against a combination of Japan and Britain. This last had more military justification before 1924, when the Anglo-Japanese Treaty was still in force. This treaty would have required Britain to join a war between the U.S. and Japan, but only if another great power (such as France or Russia) also declared war on Japan.

For political reasons, "Black" (war with Germany) was not highly developed at all. When word of planning for a war with Germany was leaked to the press in 1927, the isolationist public was outraged and the project was shelved. This echoed the situation in 1916 when President Wilson threatened to fire the entire general staff if he learned they were planning for war with Germany. (This was an election year when Wilson's slogan was, "He kept us out of war.") Serious planning for war with Germany was not done until 1939 when work began on the five "Rainbow" plans. These dealt with simultaneous threats from both Atlantic and Pacific--in other words, war with the Axis countries. By that time the threat was too great to ignore, even though public sentiment was still strongly isolationist.

Apparently in the 1920s only certain scenarios could safely be considered: Japan because of the threat it posed to the Philippines, and Latin America because of U.S. interests there. But war against a European power could be contemplated only if such a war was so unlikely that it could be brushed off as a mere exercise if the newspapers got wind of it. That was essentially the case with War Plan Red, though presumably it would have been dusted off and used in the unlikely event the U.S. declared war on Britain. The plan was called "obsolete" and "inapplicable" but was not officially withdrawn until 1939. It was not destroyed as other obsolete plans were because the military felt the naval part of the plan would be helpful in fighting any enemy in the Atlantic.

Much of the recent attention paid to War Plan Red has been due to the writings of one Floyd W. Rudmin, a social psychologist with American and Canadian citizenship. He wrote a 1993 book, which I have not read, titled Bordering on Aggression: Evidence of U.S. Military Preparations against Canada. He views Canadians' generally blasé attitude toward the plan since it was declassified as evidence of blindness to the American threat. He sees the plan in a much more sinister light than do most military historians, implying that there was a high likelihood of its being implemented.

There is a much better, though less recent, example in support of Rudmin's contention of Canadian blindness to the U.S. threat. This was the 1890s border dispute between Venezuela and British Guiana, in which Canada had no direct part. The jingoistic president Grover Cleveland viewed the dispute through the lens of the Monroe Doctrine and sided with Venezuela against Britain, threatening war unless Britain submitted to arbitration by himself. Some British and Canadian officers took the threat of war quite seriously, but Canadian civilians generally laughed it off. In fact, U.S. military planning was much more extensive than the public realized at the time, and Canada would have been the first target. Secretary of the Navy H.A. Herbert in 1896 ordered a plan to seize control of the Great Lakes and St. Lawrence in the event of war. As I noted above, the fact that the military makes plans doesn't necessarily mean anything, but a civilian request for a plan indicates that it might well be put into action. However, it's not clear whether Cleveland knew what Herbert was up to. Eventually tensions subsided and the border dispute was resolved by arbitration in 1899. I won't say we were ever on the brink of war during the Venezuela crisis, but we were surely closer then than at any time during the era of War Plan Red. Within a few years, though, various events including the Spanish-American War (and the British reaction to it), the Boer War (and the American reaction to it), and the Hay-Pauncefote Treaty made an Anglo-American war a remote possibility.

The United States wasn't the only country preparing for war in North America after the First World War. There is no evidence Britain continued to plan for war with the U.S. after the war (perhaps because they were freer to plan for war with more likely enemies). But in 1921 Canada's Director of Military Operations and Intelligence, Col. J. Sutherland-Brown, produced a remarkable document called "Defence Scheme Number 1" to deal with possible war with the U.S. As in the U.S., isolationism ran high in Canada and it was politically difficult to plan for war in Europe. "Defence Scheme Number 3" did eventually deal with that scenario, but not until a decade later. ("Defence Scheme Number 2" dealt with war against Japan.) DS1, as the name implies, was primarily a defensive plan, but it included invasions of the U.S. in the first days of war as a means of gaining time until troops from elsewhere in the Empire could arrive. These invasions would have been aimed at Albany, Minneapolis, Seattle, and other northern cities, to be followed by a slow withdrawal and destruction of bridges and railroads. The plan was withdrawn in 1929, about the same time the finishing touches were being put on War Plan Red. There is no evidence that U.S. and Canadian planners knew of each other's work.



NOW you can worry...

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 11:29 PM

We know we will be invaded--or we'll have to play ball. That is understood by many Canadians. However, the camps in the US will, IMO, tie up lots of people.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 11:53 PM

let me see... 600 camps, 20K each... 12 million people- so only another 280+ million left to march north...

United States
Population: 293,027,571 (July 2004 est.)

brucie, didn't you notice the dates of the plans to invade Canada? But maybe you are right to worry- they are still around.....

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 11:56 PM

The US will need water. We have lots of that. In much the way we see that when the US wanted Iraq oil it simply went and took it, in that way the US will simply invade us and take what it wants. I expect Canadians will be slaughtered in the process.

Your country is set, IMO, on world domination. Canada is in the world. I think your government would not be at all bothered by destroying this country.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 12:03 AM

"when the US wanted Iraq oil it simply went and took it, in that way the US will simply invade us and take what it wants."


WHAT OIL? The US is shipping petroleum products INTO Iraq, to support the new government. With what we have used in this war, we are not getting anything in the way of oil from Iraq. If we buy it at world market prices, HOW ARE WE TAKING IT FROM ANYONE?

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 01:04 AM

beardedbruce, did you actually read what you put in your 16 Apr 05 - 09:29 PM post?

What you have in that post supports what brucie and I have been talking about. Especially this bit: Garden Plot is the program to control the population. Cable Splicer is the program for an orderly takeover of the state and local governments by the federal government. FEMA is the executive arm of the coming police state and thus will head up all operations.

And this bit: They allegedly discussed FEMA's role in the event of civil unrest and the imposition of martial law. Giuffrida produced a plan for mass roundup and imprisonment of subversives

Now why, if they aren't planning on removing our freedoms, do they expect so much civil unrest that they would need to impose martial law? And how do you suppose they would be defining "subversives"? Anybody who isn't happy about having their freedoms removed perhaps?

On the subject of Iraqi oil... the point never was to get oil for the benefit of the people of the US. The point has always been to $ecure the oil $upplie$ for the oil companie$, and to establish a large military presence in the Middle East. That part... the military presence part, is right there in that PNAC document I linked to.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 09:19 AM

CarolC,


"Now why, if they aren't planning on removing our freedoms, do they expect so much civil unrest that they would need to impose martial law? "


from my post-
"A Miami Herald article published 5 July 1987 reported that U.S. Marine Lt. Col. Oliver North, then employed to draw up national security contingency plans, often met then FEMA director Louis O. Giuffrida between 1982 and 1984. They allegedly discussed FEMA's role in the event of civil unrest and the imposition of martial law. Giuffrida produced a plan for mass roundup and imprisonment of subversives, recycled from a plan he had devised in 1970 for the Army War College in case of an uprising of black militants."

Do you understand "CONTINGENCY"?


They are SUPPOSED to have plans to cover what might happen. If there is a nuclear bomb used on Baltimore, I would want them to have some means of controlling the refugees, rather than just letting everyone run around. Maybe SOME of them might get the medical care that they would need, instead of dying curled up in a bed 400 miles away.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 09:44 AM

I can't argue the military presence- but do not think it such a bad thing. If we had it at the time of the tsanumi, aid would have been there even faster than it was. ( A normal peacetime base has large supplies of aid material-contingencies, you know)

As for the oil, I think that there are other forces in the world ( like China) which preclude any "control" of Middle East oil. If we do NOT have a presence there, I suspect we might NOT have access at some point in the future- but that does not mean we would be taking it other than by purchasing. In fact, it is trivial to deny the oil to the entire world ( a couple of hydrogen bombs and it would burn for 100 years), but it would take a lot more capability than we have to selectivly keep any specific countries from getting oil.

IMO, if you had half the concern for the actions that other governments have indicated they would do that you do for what you fear that ours might possibly do, you would think a little more about what you were objecting to the US actually doing.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 10:16 AM

CarolC,

from my earlier post:
"DS1, as the name implies, was primarily a defensive plan, but it included invasions of the U.S. in the first days of war as a means of gaining time until troops from elsewhere in the Empire could arrive. These invasions would have been aimed at Albany, Minneapolis, Seattle, and other northern cities, to be followed by a slow withdrawal and destruction of bridges and railroads"


Aren't you worried about the Canadians? ( **bg** )

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 10:59 AM

Brucie blandly asserted as a fact:

The upshoot? FEMA can now over-ride Congress.

You say it is so. You want people to believe it. You have the burden of proof.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 12:13 PM

Back to you in a bit. Have a few things to do. However, I trust you are sharing out the 'burden of proof'. That is, it applies to your side of this, too.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 12:41 PM

Dave

See Executive Order 11921

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 01:08 PM

And ya better not talk about it, either.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 01:10 PM

Anyway, you no doubt know the expression about 'getting fixed'. "Took the dog to get it fixed." I think your people are getting fixed. Maybe it's about time y'all did some fixing back. Your government is out of control.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 01:37 PM

Do you understand "CONTINGENCY"?

They are SUPPOSED to have plans to cover what might happen.

The problem is that the wording of that stuff indicates that they are anticipating civil unrest that is not connected in any way to a disaster such as a bio-weapon. The example of the Black Panthers proves beyond any shadow of a doubt that it is for the purpose of controling people whose rights have been violated, whose freedoms have been abridged, and who are sufficiently unhappy about it that they are actively working to (re)gain their freedoms and their rights.

On the subject of the oil. You are not seeing the bigger picture. It isn't about the people in the US getting oil. It isn't about people in other countries getting oil. It is entirely about oil companies having access to the profits that come with being the ones who get to extract and sell that oil. They don't give a shit about whom they sell it to. They just want to be the ones who get to make a profit on it. That's why, when they were able to use Saddam to help them get and keep that access, the US government considered him an ally, and even helped him wage war on Iran (another area where the oil companies want access). It wasn't until Saddam started defying orders from the US that he became enemy #1.

The reason they are using the US government to help them secure the oil profits for themselves is because, A. we have a huge military and we can do the job, B. our politicians are in their pockets and are willing to send our brave servicemen and women to die in order to help them maximize their profits, and C. because they can.

IMO, if you had half the concern for the actions that other governments have indicated they would do that you do for what you fear that ours might possibly do, you would think a little more about what you were objecting to the US actually doing.

I've seen enough of the damage done to human beings by what the government of this country has already done (sending our brave servicemen and women to kill and be killed in Vietnam) to be misled by this line of reasoning, beardedbruce. I already know, from personal experience, that the government of this country doesn't give a shit about the citizens of this country. As far as they are concerned, we exist only for the profit we help them generate. That's all.

Aren't you worried about the Canadians? ( **bg** )

Too late, beardedbruce. The Canadians' plan to invade and eventually take over the US is already well underway. They're everywhere now. There's even one of them living in my own home! But they're polite and they've got a lot more common sense than the US government, so I'm not too concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 01:47 PM

Carol,

When are we invading? Ottawa leaves Shane and me out of the loop.

Bruce

PS Would the USA and its citizens be terribly offended if we brought our own beer?

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 01:51 PM

brucie, I can only imagine that it is because you live in a very isolated place and you don't watch television that you are not already aware of the plan. JtS has been living here for more than six years. And he not only brought some damn fine beer, he also brought a bottle of Screech.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 02:19 PM

And for the kids.


Carol,

I had Screech few times. Please tell Jack not to be upset when I say to you, "DON'T DRINK IT!" It is good to keep in case you run out of turpentine or varsol. Do not store it near flame or sparks.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 02:26 PM

Also, if the FEMA people direct the military to your place, ya might not wanna be caught with that stuff in your possession. I have heard that it can be used to initiate the cold fusion process; also, it was the catalyst for the first thermnuclear device--the scientists felt its reliability to go boom was a few magnitudes higher than the fission bomb. One day when Canada had an energy crisis--basically, no one outside of Toronto felt like getting up and going to work--the federal government actually piped Screech through or taps. Production quadrupled for about seventeen days, and it only took a few months to correct the errors.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 02:29 PM

Incidentally, the children's site posted above is pretty good--at least for the part of the story it DOES tell. Note thia line from it:

"FEMA is part of the EXECUTIVE BRANCH, which means it reports to the President of the United States."

Y'all better not mess with FEMA.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 02:53 PM

I have heard that it can be used to initiate the cold fusion process

No kidding, brucie. What do you think we've been using for our household energy supply all this time? It's got a really long half-life too. That one bottle alone ought to keep our computers running for at least the next fifty years. But I am going to have to drink some of it eventually. Right before I kiss the cod fish. Or right after... can't remember which. If I don't, they'll have to throw me in the harbour.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: DougR
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 02:57 PM

brucie: why the heck would we want Canada?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 02:58 PM

RESOURCES.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 03:04 PM

SPACE (Liebestraum).

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 03:04 PM

WATER.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 03:05 PM

OIL/GAS.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 03:05 PM

CBC.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 03:06 PM

GREED.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 03:09 PM

Naw... the US doesn't want the CBC. That's probably the first thing the US would eliminate if it took control of Canada. The second thing would be the national health care system.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 04:23 PM

I expect that at least half of us will be exterminated--basically what isn't required for labour. So the health care system might be something we need less at that time. CBC? Well, they ain't what they used to be, but they do their part to keep culture alive anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Once Famous
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 04:27 PM

They are all criminals.

Great job arresting them all.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 04:32 PM

Yes, they were and are.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Grab
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 05:05 PM

Thought. Let's suppose there is a terrorist attack involving CBW. Or maybe not terrorist, maybe something natural along the lines of Ebola.

Now the issue is not necessarily getting the terrorists in the camp, the issue is more likely to be getting civvies in there, to somewhere surrounded by lots of heavily-armed soldiers. In mediaeval terms, think bailey wall or curtain wall - sacrifice the surrounding area to the attackers and pull the civvies inside. If they decide not to do it this way, there still is a problem of transporting contaminated people (and corpses) to somewhere so everyone else isn't infected. Camps are equally valid for both.

And the issue is not how many spaces there are, the problem is getting people there *fast*. Hence you need many distributed around the country.

And as for secrecy, think of how the IRA ran its bombing campaigns in NI. The classic move (repeated often) was to plant one bomb somewhere, and then plant several more bombs in the surrounding area in places where civvies were likely to be evacuated to, so that they'd kill as many people as possible. So the last thing you want is to evacuate people to a camp, only to find your friendly neighbourhood terrorist has planted a nice big batch of chemicals in there.

Or suppose they aren't refugee camps at all. Armies need places to train, and special forces will likely be training in small groups somewhere that's similar to where they're going. It may be easier not to shout "Hey folks, the Marines are in town!", you think?

Re the mass arrests of criminals, it takes *manpower* to go round arresting people. Most of that manpower is usually pounding the streets or on traffic patrol. But for a day, you can afford to pull people off "regular" policing to blitz the outstanding cases that they haven't had time to deal with. If there were enough police, maybe they wouldn't *have* to make arresting criminals a special event! But too many police looks like Nazi Germany, and some paranoid people start rumours going, especially on the Internet... ;-)

If you're determined to quote Nazi Germany, I'll remind you what happened there. Jews, gypsies etc were rounded up, and none of their neighbours spoke out. These people had committed no crime, they just happened to be of the wrong race. Now this has already happened in the US, during WW2, to Japanese-Americans. But until the police start rounding up Muslims in your area, things don't seem to be anything like that. Guantanamo Bay is something else, of course - very very dodgy. But not Americans in there.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: puck
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 05:12 PM

Well thats the States and Bush for you!

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 05:24 PM

I receive a letter from a good friend today. He lives in the US. I will quote a part of what he wrote.

"We haven't heard much about the mass arrest of 10,000 people that occurred while I was in ########, except that it
occurred. I find this disturbing no matter what the true
circumstances: either we are overwhelmed with bona-fide terrorists
or the Bushies have taken a page from the Nazi's guidebook.

Reminds me that a few months ago I saw some 2nd level administration
official (assistant hack) on the tube reassuring us viewers that the
Patriot Act should be renewed and not to worry because this is the
good old USA and we would not be holding innocent persons
incommunicado or anything like that. (Oh no? how about Brandon
Mayfield, the Portland attorney who was held without charges,
incommunicado, for two weeks when he was falsely accused of being
connected with the train bombings in Spain. When he was finally
released, a court put him under a gag order forbidding him to talk
about it and the FBI commented that he was still under investigation
even though the Spanish had positively established that the
fingerprints that the FBI said were his actually belonged to an
Algerian terrorist who they arrested. Mayfield, is a convert to
Islam-making him a very suspicious guy.)

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 06:02 PM

brucie

As for your beer- PLEASE!

8-{E

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 07:28 PM

Habeas Corpus. Been suspended in the US?

FBI: Gag orders?

Some vibrant and healthy democracy you have there.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 07:30 PM

"how about Brandon Mayfield, the Portland attorney who was held without charges, incommunicado, for two weeks when he was falsely accused of being connected with the train bombings in Spain."

Nothing to say about this (while I sip my beer)?

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 07:35 PM

Story here, BB. Refresh yer memory. Big OOPS from the FBI.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 07:52 PM

brucie,

they are human, too...


from your last clicky-"One sign of how badly the case was handled: the FBI publicly apologized to Mayfield, something the bureau almost never does. Mayfield appreciates the mea culpa. "I commend them for stepping up to the plate ... and admitting they made a mistake," he says. "I'm from the Midwest, and an apology goes a long way."


And now you can tell me how often OTHER countries have admitted they had made mistakes. I think that there is a bias against the US, in that we are held to a set of standards that no other country is, yest criticised for not treating all the other countries as our equals. If we are MORE RESPONSIBLE, then perhaps we should get the rights that go along with responsibility.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: GUEST,brucie
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 07:57 PM

Does NOT take away the fact they held him for two weeks with NO charge and he was innocent.

They apologized because he was a lawyer. He'd likely have sued their arses off otherwise.

Don't white-wash the situation. You guys are kissin' your country goodbye.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 08:15 PM

"If we are MORE RESPONSIBLE, then perhaps we should get the rights that go along with responsibility."

Lotsa words that don't address the issue. You have not been responsible in many dealings with other countries, BB. The world is beginning to see that.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 08:30 PM

brucie,

I meant that if we are held to a higher standard of responsibility....


Will you state that you would hold other countries to the same standards that you insist the US comply with? ANd get Canada to stop exporting asbestos to the third world? And hold the Chinese and other Asian prision systems to the same level so scrutiny that the US is held to?

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 08:58 PM

Canada is not trying to dominate the world. The US is.

The US exported WMDs to Saddam Hussein. Gave him weapons and cash--to act as a balance against Iran. Asbestos--WMDs.

Neither is right, but one is less wrong than the other.

Get something new to blame Canada for, BB. I have heard this one for many months. You are smarter than that.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 09:32 PM

brucie,

I have heard Iraq for several years...

Which WMD did we send Saddam? Here I thought he got them from the French and Germans...

Canada has 1/10 the population- so multiply the effect of it's actions by 10 to get the equivilent US....

"Canada is not trying to dominate the world. The US is."

You make this statement without any validation. Should you care to provide proof, I might consider it- but it looks like Canada is busy telling the US what to do- not that we listen. So who is trying to dominate the world?

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 11:47 PM

brucie:

We already tried to take Canada and were licked. I think we learned that lesson. If we get any of it it will probably be if Quebec takes themselves too seriously and accidentally votes themselves out of the Union. In that case I think the Maritimes would come begging.

I sure hope I'm wrong. I believe in a strong and united Canada. It would be better for the US that way. If we took you over it would be the end of good ginger beer and fish 'n chips. Not to mention fields full of sunflowers. And "Puppets Who Kill".

Nah, impossible.

You should rent yourself a hilarious little flower-power era movie with James Coburn called "The President's Analysit." The Canadian secret service plays a part in it.

hugs and kisses from your friends in the States and ......

CALM DOWN!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 12:35 AM

The CBC is great brucie. But the US government would probably consider them subversive. They sometimes actually report facts.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 01:31 AM

Canadian Arab Federation Calls for
Due Process for All Detainees
In a news release dated October 7, the Canadian Arab Federation (CAF) expressed its happiness at the release of Maher Arar and called on the Canadian government to do more to ensure the protection of Canadian citizens domestically and abroad. "We extend our best wishes to the Arar family," CAF National President Raja Khouri said amongst other things.

"Mr. Arar is not the only person of Arab descent to be held in detention. Hassan Almrei, a 29-year old refugee from Syria has been held in a Canadian prison for two years in solitary confinement without charge or bail. He is being held on a security certificate that does not allow for any of the alleged evidence against him to be shared with either Almrei or his lawyer. Others being similarly detained in Canada are Mahmoud Jaballah (without charge since August 2001), Mohammad Mahjoub (held since June 2000), Adil Charkaoui (since May) and Mohamad Harkat (since Dec 2002)," the CAF said.

CAF's Executive Director Audrey Jamal said: "As a country we cannot be selective in condemning these human rights violations internationally while remaining silent about events that happen within our own borders." "The same Canadian officials, who found the detention of Mr. Arar without trial or charge unacceptable, should also take action against the lack of due process for detainees that is happening right here in Canada," Jamal said.

CAF urged the Canadian government to either charge these individuals and present those charges in a court of law with transparent and public proceedings, or release them.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 01:31 AM

Citizenship and Immigration Canada Must Clear Allegations Against "Project Thread" Victims
- Canadian Council on American-Islamic Relations, November 11, 2003 -
The Canadian Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR-CAN) today called on the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration Denis Coderre to immediately offer a public apology to the individuals arrested under "Project Thread" and to issue a public declaration that there is no evidence to connect the men to terrorism.

"Project Thread" refers to the RCMP investigation that culminated in the arrest and detention of 20 Pakistani men and one south Indian man in August 2003. Of the 21 arrested, nine have been deported, one remains in jail while the rest are out on bail, facing deportation.

In his call to the Minister, CAIR-CAN Executive Director Riad Saloojee stated:

"Three months after the men were arrested under 'Project Thread,' there continues to be no clear evidence tying the men to terrorism. On the contrary, it is clear that the public allegation issued by Citizenship and Immigration Canada (CIC) tying the men to terrorism were baseless.

"The initial allegations were gravely irresponsible and have subjected many of the men to unwarranted scrutiny and harassment. The last wave of deportations to Pakistan, for example, saw the men detained by federal officials and interrogated for 16 hours. Authorities in Pakistan have commenced further investigations into the lives of the men and their families.

"We call on the Minister to offer an immediately public apology to the men who were arrested and smeared under 'Project Thread' and to state unequivocally that Citizenship and Immigration Canada withdraws any suggestion that they are linked to terrorism."

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 01:32 AM

Ligue des droits et libertés Demands End to Deportation of Palestinian Refugees
In a press release issued November 6 demanding that the Canadian government stop the deportation of Palestinian refugees, Quebec's Ligue des droits et libertés writes: "It is hard to understand how persons having lived a large part of their lives in refugee camps in Lebanon, in conditions where they are prevented from and denied the possibility of exercising their rights, can be refused as refugees by the Immigration and Refugee Board. It is also difficult to understand how Canada can deport stateless people, who hold no citizenship to a country they can be returned to.

"It is also unacceptable that Palestinians are being deported to the U.S. where they probably face a long detention. We have seen how foreign nationals are being treated there, especially Arabs and Muslims, since September 11, 2001, which has been met with condemnation by all U.S. and international rights and civil liberties organizations.

"The deportation of Palestinian refugees demonstrates a lack of comprehension towards the Middle East problem as well as the reality of Palestinian refugee camps. It is recognized that with regard to international law, because Palestinian refugees come under the protection of the UNRWA (United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East) rather than the HCR (United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees), thousands of persons from the Occupied Territories as well as from refugee camps in the area are left in a major legal void, especially in Lebanon. These refugees live a life of persecution and because they are without protection in the Middle East, deportation orders issued against them are unacceptable.

"The Ligue des droits et libertés demands that the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration take action as quickly as possible to put an end to the deportation of Palestinian refugees."

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 01:33 AM

Most Recent Canadian Immigration
Detention Statistics
- Action Réfugiés Montréal, November 11, 2003 -
Canada's Citizenship and Immigration (CIC) produces a weekly "detention snapshot," which shows how many people were in immigration detention during a particular week. In 2003, they have shared figures starting from June 15 to October 11.

From these statistics, we can see that during any one week, over the period covered:

- an average of 681 people were in immigration detention in Canada.
- of these, an average of 341 people were in provincial jails and the rest (339) were in immigration holding centres.
- 67 per cent of detainees were in Ontario, 18 per cent in Quebec, 3 per cent in the Prairies and Territories, 11 per cent in B.C./Yukon and less than 1 per cent in the Atlantic.
- despite its immigration detention centre, Ontario specializes in detention in provincial jails, with an average of 253 in jail, compared to 201 in the immigration centre.
- by contrast, in Québec, there is an average of 24 in jails, compared to 101 in the immigration centre.
- there is some significant variation in the numbers detained over the period covered: the lowest was the week of July 27 to August 2 (574 people detained) and the highest was the week of September 14-20 (753 people detained).

Persons released and removed (statistics available starting July 13):

- each week an average of 202 people were released or removed.
- an average of 144 (71 per cent) of them were released and an average of 58 (29 per cent) were removed.

Minors:

- there were on average 17 minors in detention, most of them accompanied (13), but on any day there may have been one unaccompanied minor in detention.
- the highest number of minors in detention was found between September 14-20 (35 minors) and the lowest between July 27-August 2 (4 minors).

Gender:

- on average, 83 per cent of the detainees are male. This gender ratio remains fairly constant.

Source:

- an average of 57 per cent of detainees originate from inland claims. 42 per cent are detained at a port of entry. This ratio remains fairly constant.

Refugee claimants:

- of those detained, an average of 44 per cent are refugee claimants. An average of 46 per cent of detainees are not refugee claimants. An average of 10 per cent are failed refugee claimants.

Grounds for detention (statistics available starting June 22):

- a detainee may be detained for multiple reasons.
- during any given week, an average of 8.5 per cent are held for identity reasons.
- an average of 55.1 per cent are believed to be unlikely to appear for removal.
- an average of 5.8 per cent are believed to be unlikely to appear for minister's proceedings.
- an average of 14.3 per cent are believed to be unlikely to appear for admissibility hearings.
- an average of 16.5 per cent are believed to be unlikely to appear for continuation of examination.
- an average of 15 per cent are considered a danger to the public.
- an average of 9 people (1.4 per cent) are detained for security concerns or on a security certificate.
- these percentages can vary widely.

Criminality (statistics available starting July 6):

- a detainee may qualify to be classified under more than one category of criminality.
- an average of 12.1 per cent of detainees are classified under "criminality"
- an average of 20.5 per cent of detainees are classified under "serious criminality"
- an average of 6 people are classified under "human/international rights violations"
- an average of 3 people are classified under "organized crime"
- an average of 2 people are classified under "smuggling/trafficking"

CIC warns us that that these statistics are manually tabulated and may contain inaccuracies.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 01:34 AM

Canada: 75 Fujianese women facing deportation need your help

Between July to September, 1999, four ships holding a total of 599 Chinese people arrived on Canada's west coast: 96 minors, 90 women and 403 men.
The Canadian government's response was to detain most of them, try to issue exclusion orders (one of which was recently overturned), and push them through an accelerated (fastrack) refugee claim process, which was already stacked against them given the corporate media's extremely hostile and racist portrayals of these unfortunate people.

To date, 6 people have been granted refugee status, 251 people have had negative decisions, 14 people have withdrawn their request for refuge, and 67 have abandoned their claims. Some more hearings will take place in April,

but the government has been sending a strong message that it intends to deport many people soon.

The punishments for people who are returned to China have reportedly become harsher lately--they potentially face more than a year's imprisonment for leaving China, depending on their local situation.

While there were initially 96 minors, many of them have run away. The rest are under the care of the Ministry of Families and Children--kept in Dogwood Lodge (a group home), a Youth Detention Centre, and a few may be in foster care.

Most of the children were unaccompanied, but four mothers who came with their children on the ships have been kept in prison for almost eight months, and are only allowed to see their children once every two weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 01:37 AM

While we are sceptical about there being any redeeming value in
incarceration, we are particularly concerned about the following facts:

    * At 123 per 100,000 of the population, Canada's incarceration rate
      is higher than most "western democracies". While still far below
      the United States (682), it is above countries such as Austria
      (86), France (88), and Scotland (119). Germany's rate is 96, and
      Norway's is only 57 out of every 100,000 citizens. On any given
      day there are 30,000 prisoners in Canadian jails.

    * Of the approximately 13,000 prisoners held in federal prisons in
      1998, about 2,100 (or 16%) were Native. In 1999-2000, this figure
      rose to over 17%. First Nations women, who were 18% of the total
      number of woman prisoners in the federal system in 1981, were 27%
      of the total by 2002. First Nations people only comprise 2.8
      percent of the general population. In Manitoba, Saskatchewan and
      Alberta, Native people make up approximately 45% of the federal
      prison population; accounting for over 50% of the prison
      population in some penitentiaries. In Saskatchewan, for example,
      Native people are incarcerated at a rate 35 times higher than
      non-Native people. (Source: Correctional Services Canada website)

    * A very high rate of women are in prison for protecting themselves
      against their abusers. This makes it obvious that the legal system
      does not protect women who suffer violence at the hands of their
      partners.

    * Roughly 48 percent of federal inmates and 83 percent of provincial
      inmates are incarcerated for non-violent offences. One-fifth (20%)
      of admissions to provincial jails are for not paying fines.
      (Source: Correctional Services Canada website)

    * Canada imprisons hundreds of refugees and immigrants, including
      minors, in prisons, jails and detention centers, simply because
      they lack the proper identity papers. This situation has been
      aggravated by the racist and repressive hysteria that followed the
      September 11th attacks two years ago, and it's getting worst: so
      far, an average of over 20% more refugees and immigrants have been
      incarcerated for these reasons in 2003 than in 2002. (Source:
      Citizenship and Immigration Canada)


Although obvious, some statistics regarding life behind bars bear repeating:

    * Attempted suicide rates inside prisons are four times as high as
      on the outside.

    * Older prisoners generally have health problems characteristic for
      individuals ten years older on the outside.

    * Fewer than one in ten women in prison describe their interactions
      with prison health services as positive.

    * Double bunking, putting two prisoners in a cell that was designed
      for one was introduced as a temporary measure in 1984 - today, 25%
      of prisoners are double bunked and that number is projected to
      raise to 30% by the turn of the century.

    * Statistics Canada figures on adult corrections for 1999-2000 show
      that a total of 189 prisoners died in that one year period.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 01:39 AM

The Government of Canada had acknowledged particular responsibilities for tragic physical and sexual abuse of Aboriginal children in many residential schools, the delegation said; it had committed $350 million to develop the independently run Aboriginal Healing Foundation to support healing initiatives for individuals, families, and communities dealing with the legacy of abuse in residential schools. The Government was committed to resolving liabilities for claims of those who suffered abuse; its preference was to resolve these claims outside the courtroom; the Government did not consider it useful at this point to carry out a public inquiry, and thought it would be very difficult to ensure that survivors were not re-victimized or traumatized by such a process.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 01:43 AM

But first a new report that says Canada is lagging behind other countries in dealing with prison drug addiction. The report is being released today and its findings are endorsed by the Ontario Medical Association. Ralf Jurgens is the lead author of the report and the Executive Director of the Canadian HIV/AIDS Legal Network. He was in our Ottawa studio today.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 01:53 AM

http://www.kcl.ac.uk/depsta/rel/icps/worldbrief/north_america_records.php?code=188



and ... from Highlights of the Youth Criminal Justice Act

"Youth courts are empowered to impose an adult sentence after a youth is found guilty, thereby eliminating the need to transfer cases to adult court.
The age for the presumption of an adult sentence for the most serious offences is lowered to 14. However, provinces will have increased flexibility on the age at which this presumption will apply within their own jurisdictions.
Offences that carry a presumption of an adult sentence are extended to include a pattern of serious and repeated violent offences.
Publication of the identity of an offender is permitted if an adult sentence is imposed, or if a youth sentence is imposed for an offence that carries a presumption of adult sentence (unless the judge decides publication is inappropriate). Publication is permitted only after a young person has been found guilty. "

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 01:56 AM

http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/mar1999/can-m24.shtml

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 01:59 AM

brucie-

"Some vibrant and healthy democracy you have there. "

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 02:07 AM

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2004/10/03/amnestyreport041003.html

and of course, Canada is working to ban asbestos exposure for it's own citizens...

"Asbestos is sectioned into two groups according to its crystalline structure. The amphibole group includes: amosite, crocidolite, anthophyllite, tremolite, and actinolite. The serpentine group includes: chrysotile. Chrysotile is still mined and manufactured in Canada. 95% of Canadian chrysotile is exported to developing countries."

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 03:31 AM

bb - all of your posts pale in comparison to the fact that the U.S. is using Napalm and other chemical weapons in Iraq.

Canada is not perfect but at least it values transparency.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 10:34 AM

BB,

The New Left Foundation has subverted me. My job has been to tie you up on this thread so that you leave the Democracy thread alone. So far, the NLF is getting their money's worth.

PS The US is trying to dominate the world. You people are being used by the NWO gang of Neocons. Look to your rear.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 11:07 AM

PS,

The camps will eventually be used for your neighbours. All Bush has to do is give an EO. Think about that. The USA with camps. Prison camps. Detention camps. What's next? Extermination camps?

Have a nice day.



Robomatic,

Ginger Beer is nowt compared to Spruce Beer.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 11:36 AM

"bb - all of your posts pale in comparison to the fact that the U.S. is using Napalm and other chemical weapons in Iraq."


dianavan,

PLEASE try to get your facts straight- WHAT chemical weapons are being used? Naplam is NOT a chemical weapon.... It is an incendiary.

All of my post are in reply to brucie telling me to find something opther than the asbestos that Canada can be criticized for.

Are you saying that the items I posted are OK? Or NOW do you say that only US actions shopuld be discussed?

When I brought up the actions of the terrorists, you stated that you had no control over them, and would only complain about US actions- WELL? How about Canada?

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 12:39 PM

Canada is not trying to take over the world. The USA is.

Camps. Think camps.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 02:35 PM

The question still remains: Why so many camps?

PS This thread IS about US actions. If you wish to scatter the argument, if you choose to go after Canada, start a thread for that purpose. Your tactic isn't working here.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 02:41 PM

PS

I started a thread entitled, "Bad things Canada has done."

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 10:50 PM

Camps.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 08:03 AM

So why does this thread remind me of Shambles' fight against all evil in Mudcat?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 09:11 AM

To address a couple of the places mentioned in one of the links above:

The "camp" at Ft. Stanton, New Mexico is a minimum-security lock-up for juvenile offenders on the grounds of an old Indian bording school. It is small, ramshackle, and has no fence around it. Holloman AFB hasn't been "taken over" by the German Air Force (aka Luftwafe), but the Germans do a lot of training there...there isn't a lot of empty territory in Germany to do high-speed, low-altitude flying. They pay their own costs, so why shouldn't they do construction if they want to? I was at Eglin AFB last month. Yes, it's big, if you include the satellite facilities...so what?

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 10:20 AM

Yep. And lotsa renovations on others. Back to you. So why?

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 12:47 PM

Sorry, but I can't confirm any of the alleged renovations. I have heard that one of the Japanese internment camps in California (Manzanar, I think) was being "renovated" as a memorial.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 02:46 PM

OK, thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 07:20 PM

"The three major camps in the Nazi concentration camp system in Germany were Dachau, Sachsenhausen and Buchenwald. Dachau was the first Nazi concentration camp in the state of Bavaria. Located just outside Munich, it was opened on March 22, 1933, less than two months after Hitler was appointed chancellor of Germany. Also in 1933, another camp was built at Oranienburg, 35 kilometers north of Berlin. The Oranienburg camp was rebuilt in 1936 and named Sachsenhausen. Buchenwald was built just outside the city of Weimar in 1937, and its first prisoners were transferred there from Sachsenhausen.

All three of these camps were built to imprison the opponents of Fascism and all three were located in areas which were hotbeds of Communist and Social Democrat political activity."

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 07:24 PM

Jus' a little remider that bad things do happen, some of them with malice and aforethought.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 01:45 PM

And I have given you a reason for the camps, which you continue to ignore...

"Jus' a little remider that bad things do happen, some of them with malice and aforethought. "

Agreed, and why do you insist that only the US is doing them? Perhaps the actions of other countries, and the UN, such as Dubar, would qualify, if you want to address current rathert than potential crimes?

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 02:48 PM

I do continue to ignore you because you do not deal with the issue. Note that I started an anti-Canada thread. Have you posted there yet?


I want to address the camps and potential crime.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 03:05 PM

I do continue to ignore you because you do not deal with the issue. (20 Apr 05 - 02:48 PM )

LOL    Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 03:26 PM

Wolfgang,

"The three major camps in the Nazi concentration camp system in Germany were Dachau, Sachsenhausen and Buchenwald. Dachau was the first Nazi concentration camp in the state of Bavaria. Located just outside Munich, it was opened on March 22, 1933, less than two months after Hitler was appointed chancellor of Germany. Also in 1933, another camp was built at Oranienburg, 35 kilometers north of Berlin. The Oranienburg camp was rebuilt in 1936 and named Sachsenhausen. Buchenwald was built just outside the city of Weimar in 1937, and its first prisoners were transferred there from Sachsenhausen.

All three of these camps were built to imprison the opponents of Fascism and all three were located in areas which were hotbeds of Communist and Social Democrat political activity."

Your countrymen and women thaough this was bullshit, too.

LOL--I think not. Good try.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 03:29 PM

That funny, W?

They too said, "It can't happen here." Guess what?

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 03:37 PM

And no one--even when they heard about the camps--could believe it. Certainly not from a country that had produced such great music, art, theatre, medicine, physics and philosophy.

They believe it now?

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 06:49 AM

Brucie,

have you understood why I have laughed about 20 Apr 05 - 02:48 PM's post? I guess not from your reaction.

Don't you laugh about a post telling someone else they still ignore them? If that was true (ignoring) there would be no post about it. The fact that there is that post contradicts its content. That's why I did laugh.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: GUEST,brucie
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 10:15 AM

So sorry. I'm ignoring you, too.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 11:50 PM

Still ignoring both you guys.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: Peace
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 01:45 PM

Yep.

Subject: RE: BS: 10,000 arrested in US today
From: GUEST,dilbert
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 02:45 AM

This is NOT a conservative-liberal issue. Alex Jones, Christian Conservative, has been talking about this for years. Government crackdown. Militias. Camps. It's a BI-partisan effort. I have no doubt that Hillary or whatever Dems sleazes through will do the same thing, in a different way.

Order Martial Law, from Infowars, watch it, make free copies.