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BS: Bad things Canada has done.

Peace 18 Apr 05 - 02:37 PM
artbrooks 18 Apr 05 - 02:41 PM
John Hardly 18 Apr 05 - 02:44 PM
Once Famous 18 Apr 05 - 02:50 PM
Peace 18 Apr 05 - 02:51 PM
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Subject: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 02:37 PM

A 'catter on another thread has posted many things Canada has done and continues to do wrong. It detracts from that thread, so I though this should be made available. Here it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: artbrooks
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 02:41 PM

Is it true that the Canadian PM has been seen dancing with bears in public?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: John Hardly
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 02:44 PM

1. Canada Dry ginger ale gives me heart burn.
2. Canada geese poke holes in sod.
3. Alan Thicke


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Once Famous
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 02:50 PM

Besides Anne Murray, they can't hold a baseball team in Montreal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 02:51 PM

Guys, get SERIOUS here. Canada has done lotsa bad stuff. This is everyone's chance to VENT!

I wouldn't put ANYthing past Paul Martin. Also, I agree about Alan Thicke. (The first person other than me to mention that S word will win the pool.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 02:52 PM

Cheap shot, Gibson. True, but CHEAP. However, we got steamies and all youse guys got is Chicago hotdogs. Like, wot's THAT about?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Once Famous
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 03:02 PM

Brucie, I think eating a "steamie" leads the eater to producing a very bad "steamie" in about 15-20 minutes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: alanabit
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 03:12 PM

William Shatner, Avril Lavigne...Other than that, it's hard work finding things to get upset at Canada about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Metchosin
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 03:40 PM

Skipping a bunch of bad stuff done to first nations people and Canadians of Japanese descent during WWII, how about the internment of
Ukranians and other Ausro-Hungarians. Of course they were real handy with picks and shovels and their keep was relatively inexpensive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: heric
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 04:12 PM

They dump human turds, in their original shape, consistency and flavor, in the Georgia Strait, along with 35.6 billion litres of urine and other filth every year. They turned Howe Sound into a bathtub of dioxins and sulphide metals. They clearcut ancient forests in swaths of 100 hectares or more, right up to stream beds and on steep slopes. Oh, don't get me started. They're not hurting anyone else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 04:18 PM

great snooker players though, and joni mitchell, and mordecai richler, and they were on our side in WW2. Nobody gets EVERYTHING right.......

big al


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peter T.
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 04:27 PM

We did and do many dreadful things -- putting native people into residential schools, interning the Japanese, and generally being like other nations.

On the other hand, we did burn down the White House, so there are good things to be said for us.

The real problem with Canada is that it is a country held together by very weak bonds, and it is always on the verge of falling apart into the awaiting arms of our neighbours to the south. It is happening again right now, and I fear the worst.

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: artbrooks
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 06:26 PM

Don't want ya...sorry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 06:31 PM

Jacques Bloody Villeneuve.
G


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Gray D
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 07:58 PM

Canada is the temporary name for a piece of land. It was "Canadians" that you meant to type, now wasn't it?

Gray (Pedantic? Me?) D


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 08:01 PM

Absolutely. And I am a Canadian, so there's another bad thing Canada has done.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: number 6
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 08:09 PM

The "october Crisis" of 1970 is a shame on our history as far as I'm concerned.

The over reaction that lead to the invoking of the War Measures Act which suspended all civil liberties and rights which resulted in midnight raids and incarceration of citizens with no reason is rather horrific when we stop now and remember. In contrast it is a shame that the 4 murders of Pierre Laporte during that crisis (absolute cold blooded in it's exucution) did not serve more than 10 years for the crime.

Good thread Bruce.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 08:17 PM

I was in Montreal during that period. About 400 people were held without charge. Many members of the artistic community--left leaning folks, and mostly French. I was braced a number of times on the streets when I had my guitar with me. Had to open the case a few times to show what I was carrying inside. Was always a Martin D 28.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: number 6
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 08:22 PM

always something about thoise D28's, always raise suspicion!

Peter T. _ I know exactly what you mean when it comes to 'fearing for the worse'. We've never been more vlulnerable than now, especially with Harper loomin over on the horizon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 08:26 PM

Ain't THAT the truth, sIx.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 09:19 PM

Blame Canada! Blame Canada! They send the US all those nasty winter storms!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 09:22 PM

I figured BB would be here by now. He had a litany of things on another thread. I hope he posts them here, because Canada certainly deserves to be blamed for the stuff he posted. The asbestos too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 09:31 PM

Well, I'll tell ya whad I don't like about Canada other then these pesky geese that now litter every square inch of the US... Yeah, it's that danged Canada air... In the winter when it's like cold and the weather person come on the TV and says that we're gonna get a blast of Canadian air, well, that ain't what you wanta hear! Brrrrrrr!!!

Now come summer when it's a hunner in the shade do you all send some of that Canadian air? Heck no, you don't... You all hog it all fer yerselves... This is exactly why you are gonna make Bush's revised Axis of Evil list next year and fir once I'll have to go along with the lunitic....

I also don't like yer nickles because they is way cooler than ours... I mean, like who thought up up them nickles... I hope whoever is was got duely compensated... Sho nuff do... Them is some bad nickles as far as I can see... We got round ones.... Boring....

That's 'bout it fir me...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 09:37 PM

Canada keeps Alaska from being a contiguous state.


Hmmm...that's not necessarily a bad thing, come to think of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 10:33 PM

Hi, my name is Dave and i'm a Tim Hortons coffee addict... I used to be normal but in 1976 I came to Canada and my life changed. They are open 24/7 and Tim Hortons has ruined my life. I drink 5 cups a day and sometimes more. The "roll up the rim to win" has turned me into a problem gambler too... fooling myself into believeing that one day I will win that SUV or 60" Plasma TV but all I ever win is ....................free coffee and donuts.
Damn you Canada have you no shame???? ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 10:49 PM

There was an internet thing about the "roll up the rim to win" ad campaign. Guy at a drive thru ordered a coffee. Finished it and rolled up the rim. It read, "I peed in the cup."


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 11:17 PM

Lets not forget the 'head tax' on the Chinese and the passengers aboard the Komagata Maru who were denied immigration status because they were non-white British subjects.

...and yes, I fear that Canada is only a breath away from the same fate that has befallen Britain, the U.S. and Australia. The politicians are corrupt and think nothing of lying and spending our tax dollars as if it was their own hard-earned cash. Thieves and liars all of 'em!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 11:51 PM

Hear, hear!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: sian, west wales
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 11:40 AM

If being pedantic is allowed ... I do believe that the White House was actually pink at the time of burning so I reckon that counts as a favour we did.

Hmmm... "Bush in the Pink House". Has a kinda ring to it.

siân


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 11:52 AM

'We' (in quotes, cause there was no country "Canada" back then...) gave BACK all the land that we held at the end of the War Of 1812, instead of giving it to the native North Americans like we should have...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 12:08 PM

And we in the US thank you for doing so.

Just as we gave back Montreal during our Revolutionary War. You could have been under Governour-General Ben Franklin, but nooooooooooo....


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: LilyFestre
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 12:11 PM

Ok, this likely is NOT going to be popular, but uh, the national anthem for Canada....could we speed it up or change it or SOMETHING? It's painful to listen to!!!!

*Cringe* I'm sorry.....but geez Louise!

LF


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 12:16 PM

"the national anthem for Canada...."

What's wrong with "Northwest Passage"???

:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: LilyFestre
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 12:16 PM

Ok....the national anthem is bad, but I DO like the Canadian Mounties!!!! http://www.cartoondepot.com/pages/img/universal/le/mca/xdudley.htm

LF
   






Oh wait....is he trying to marry the horse? LO


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: sian, west wales
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 12:44 PM

It's a lot more interesting in French. And at least its got a range that's singable ...

siân


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: NH Dave
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 01:40 PM

While the Canadians - actually British Troops - did burn the White House, this bit of enthusiasm was condoned in land warfare back in those days, both sides did it. This particular act was in retaliation to our troops crossing over the border and burning a small town called York some time earlier.

Additionally Canada is great at maintaining old traditions. Some years ago when I drove across much of the Trans Canadian Highway, I stopped at Winnepeg for some local celebration, and visited for a bit. While walking around a bit, I noticed a man in a complete RCMP old time dress uniform, red tunic, dark riding pants, Campaign - Lemon Squeezer - Hat, Sam Brown belt, and tall boots. Having read some Mountie stories, and listened to *Sgt. Preston of the Yukon* in my earlier days I took a couple of photos of him and was about to move on when I notices something. Sticking up from behind his right shoulder was something I could not readily identify. It looked like a twig or small swagger stick, but I thought that was an odd place to carry a swagger stick. As I passed on, I looked back and discovered that the object that I could not identify was the antenna of a small VHF two-way radio, clipped to the shoulder strap of his belt, behind his shoulder.   

BTW, you can say what you want about the Canadian National anthem, but I am reliably informed that the last three words are *NOT*, "Drop the puck!"

Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: TS
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 02:39 PM

"WE" bitch when its too hot..we bitch when its too cold...we bitch when it rains..we bitch when it snows...we bitch about American Politicians...we bitch about Canadian Politicians...we call the Liberals crooks, we call NDP Communists, we call the Conservatives Nazis, and we call Le Bloc Traitors...and we bitch...but we vote...and bitch some more...we bitch about Welfare..we bitch about our jobs...we bitch about our Military..we bitch about our lack of Defence Funds....we bitch when the Canadiens win...we bitch about Don CHerry...we bitch about Lavigne, Dionne, Shatner, Thicke, Green, etc etc etc...yet we still call them our own...in short dear friends...we are a Country of Bitches....but...we still kick ass!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: LilyFestre
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 02:41 PM

Dave,

LOLOLOLOLOL!!!

LF


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 02:41 PM

Sounds like us, TS. That's fer shore.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: TS
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 02:43 PM

Mountie Tribute

forgot to plug the song Brucie..its been awhile..haha


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: GUEST,Cluin
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:44 PM

Canada let the Bloc run as a federal party. WTF?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:49 PM

People are more interested in stuff we've done to mess up the world and other people. The Yanks are tired of getting all the shit for everything. Get with the program.

Hey, we beat the crap outta baby seals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 04:05 PM

Well, there's always the good ol' reliable Ross rifle....


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: GUEST,Cluin
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 06:24 PM

Shatner, Dion, and poutine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: GUEST,Cluin
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 06:25 PM

As well as hockey, baseball, and basketball.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: number 6
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 06:38 PM

poutine .... absolutely disgusting stuff cluin.

Shame on this country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: TS
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 06:46 PM

Hey Now!!!...Lets spare the Poutine and Hockey!...Both essential parts of making it through Winter!!..


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 06:49 PM

Poutine is the national fruit, isn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peter T.
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 07:10 PM

That small town called York was Toronto. yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 07:17 PM

They changed the name because of all the limericks about York. It is much more difficult now the town is called Toronto.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 07:37 PM

worth a try

there was this young girl from Toronto
said I must run from the vice squad like pronto
but when she started to neck
With some chaps in Quebec
the cops from round there a bientot


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 07:47 PM

Good one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 09:15 PM

Canada, I love you. I remember the beauty of my country when I was a small child. I remember Rattlesnake Point, the dark woods and the rocks breaking up out of the ground. I didn't grasp how vast this country was until much later, in my twenties, driving out to BC. There's so much room here, so much clean water, so much clean air. This land will outlive its politicians. They're a puff of smoke on the wind. When I'm in the great beyond, Canada, I will remember you as I remember those I have loved personally to the heart, to the blood, and to the bone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 09:29 PM

That's the nice thing about any country -- it'll be there, perhaps slightly the worse for wear, when the politicians are gone. The mountains and the seas, the rivers and the lakes, outlast all of them and don't care.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 10:04 PM

Beautiful thought, Rapaire. And LH, you won't find too many Canucks to disagree with you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peter T.
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 10:52 PM

Rapaire is alas, wrong. It was true when human beings were not so plentiful and so powerful. The politicians and the apathetic citizenry can now wreck great swaths of the natural world, change the climate, dam up all the rivers. Look at hunks of the Appalachians in Kentucky and West Virginia, and tell me that the mountains will last forever after the mining companies have gotten through with them.

What is left of nature may recover in a few million years, for whatever comfort that is.

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: TS
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 03:02 PM

But Peter..ultimately Mother Nature is the ruler, and she will have her way. I remember my first time seeing the Foot Hills of Alberta surrounding Calgary, and I smiled. I remember the first time I watched a downpouring rainfall approaching from miles away along the Saskatchewan Prairie, and I remember sitting on "My Cliffs" over looking the Bay of Fundy on a sunny day when the water sparkled like diamonds and the glisten almost blinded me. No man, politician or industry can take that away.

TS


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: sian, west wales
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 06:27 PM

Weren't we also responsible for 'the bombs bursting in air' on the way back from the D.C. jaunt?

siân


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 06:56 PM

Let's not discuss "1812" okay? History buffs differ on the history. Let's just leave it at this: Canada is. Like it or not. The True North, Strong and Free. I stand on guard for thee.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: GUEST,Rapaire
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 09:53 PM

There's a dam on the lower Mississippi called the Atchafallia Dam (and most likely I spelled that wrong, so look it up yourself if it bothers you). It exists to insure that the Mississippi River flows past New Orleans and not down the Atchafallia River, which is where the River wants to go and which, if it followed its inclination, would leave New Orleans no longer a seaport.

The Mississippi River will eventually flow down the Atchafallia. Not right now, not perhaps in the next century, but it will.

Given enough time, Nature will utterly destroy everything Mankind has done. And Nature doesn't care if it's a garbage dump, the Citadel at Halifax, St. Peter's in Vatican City, or the Canadian Railways. Mankind could bring about the Nuclear Winter, and Nature -- red of tooth and claw and completely uncaring -- would simply start over. Nature is patient, and utterly ruthless.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: GUEST,bobad
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 09:58 PM

Reasons
to Fear Canada.

BY SEAN CARMAN

- - - -

Ninety percent of population is massed within 100 miles of northern American border.

Seems not to mind that one of its provinces has turned almost entirely French.

Excessive politeness only makes sense as cover for something truly sinister. But what?

Citizens seem strangely impervious to cold.

Decriminalization of marijuana and acceptance of gay marriage without corresponding collapse of social institutions indicate Canada may, in fact, be indestructible.

Has infiltrated entertainment industry with singers, actors, and comedians practically indistinguishable from their American counterparts.

Consistently stays just below cultural radar yet never quite disappears.

Parliamentary government and common-law judiciary appear to function acceptably yet remain completely inscrutable.

Never had a "disco phase."

Seemingly endless supply of timber, donuts, and Scotch-plaid hats with earflaps.

Keeps insisting it "has no designs on America" and "only wants peace."

Plays a mean game of pond hockey.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: GUEST,brucie
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 10:56 PM

They don't know about rentahS yet. He's poised to take over the Executive position of the .ASU This is written in edoc that will be decipherable to all .snaidanaC


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 06:34 AM

This struck me funny and I didn't really know where I should post it. Canucks might get a laugh... just a few minutes ago, when reading up on Paul Martin's plan to appeal directly to the public regarding the Sponsorship Scandal via press conference, I read The following.

"Richard Johnston, a political scientist at the University of British Columbia, was astounded by Martin's decision to make the case for his government's survival by broadcast.

"Cripes!" said Johnston when he heard the news."

Yup. That's a real Canadian scientist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: GUEST,brucie
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 10:42 AM

Political Science is an oxymoron.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peter T.
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 02:02 PM

We certainly had a disco phase!!!! It was hideous. Some people are still in it.

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 02:16 PM

I've heard (but can't confirm) that some people Up There are still in the folk music! phase!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 02:19 PM

I'll never forgive the Canadians for Shatner. Never.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: heric
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 02:23 PM

Brucie you must have been stoned and missed it. I have pictures. Hidden.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Bob the Postman
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 09:37 PM

Well, the worst thing we've done lately is to deny refugee status to people deserting the American military when ordered to participate in the illegal occupation of Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 09:39 PM

How much for the negatives?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: heric
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 10:08 PM

Yeah, but Chretien did tell Bush to go suck a lemon. And they can't take that away.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 10:22 PM

see world's worst poetry thread-


You (Canadians) have a LOT to answer for...   (*bg*)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 10:39 PM

I just read the poem by Binks, oh you whom I ignore. Jaysus. It is BADDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: sixtieschick
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 11:08 PM

Canada geese. They refuse to migrate now that they're here and they shit everywhere. Tell ya what: The geese can keep the U.S. and shit all they want--there's plenty of that here these daze anyway--and some of us'll migrate to Canada.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 03:24 AM

OK, but be forwarned, some have already preceeded you. In fact, even above the arctic circle, where there is no word in the native language for it, Canada now has the American robin, old Turdus migratorius. Guess that sort of makes up for all that's dumped on the US by the Canada goose.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 03:37 AM

Don't forget the Dionne quints!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: gnu
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 06:03 AM

They got nothin on the Quinlan (spg?) quints.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 06:29 AM

Shatner AND Binks....

And only 1/10th the population.... You ( Canadians ) really ought to be more carefull who you let out into the world...    (*bg*)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: gnu
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 07:16 AM

"Let?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: LadyJean
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 10:32 PM

There was a Canadian math teacher at my old prep school, who was waspish and disagreeable. She once kept my sister after school for saying that the rib she broke really did hurt, and she wasn't exaggerating. That sort of prejudiced us against Canadians.
I had a housemate from Newfoundland, for several years. When I mentioned him to Canadians, they would say things like, "He's not a Canadian, he's a Newf." Or "All those Newfies are on welfare."
When Don was working, he was the kind of guy who'd come in during his vacation. When he wasn't, he'd clean my kitchen to within an inch of it's life. He was annoying at times, but not a bum.
But folk from Toronto and Ottowa won't believe me when I say so.
I got Don a book that described the two armed rebellions that are a part of Canada's history nobody seems to want to talk about. He was amazed that there were uprisings in "niceland".


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 10:38 PM

Too bad the good guys don't make the news. Who the hell were you hanging out with that they'd talk like that? Crap and lowlife by the sounds of it. Too bad you met them. Want to hear about the southern cracker I met who thought all Black people should be called niggers and all Hispanic people called spics? Then would you like me to extend that to all the folks in Jacksonville, Florida? All the people in the whole damned city?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: gnu
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 06:39 AM

Easy, easy.

Bad things? What about the Junos? I mean, the idea ain't so bad, and the talent is great, but to put on a piss poor show year after year after year, man, that's bad. After that last one, I'll join Clinton and switch the channel. I can't even watch Corner Gas without being reminded of that entrance. I hope it only aired in Canada.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: *daylia*
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 07:58 AM

how about inflicting the public with bad sculpture? It wasn't enough that the Orangemen from Ontario hung poor ole Louis and his Metis rebels - now we have THIS by his grave in Winnipeg?!?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: *daylia*
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 08:22 AM

Then there's this thing adorning Barrie, my home town. The town council bought it from Vancouver many years ago, and it's still gives newcomers here the creeps. The rest of us have become desensitized, mostly...

But the best one was this 20' high sickly green brass breast someone scuplted for the MacLaren Art Center here. Looked kinda like a giant Klingon woman had come to Barrie for a masectomy and left it here as a memento. The editor of the Barrie Exaggerator was flooded with protest letters for years, till they took it down not too long ago. Wish I could show you a pic of that big green boob, but no such luck...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 10:20 AM

What an AWESOME Valkyrie, daylia. I wonder if I could buy it from Barrie for my yard. I might glue some real feathers on it and install speakers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 10:29 AM

I actually only have one other Valkyrie sculpture in my collection, but yours would be a perfect complement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 11:08 AM

Y'ain't seen nothin' 'til ya seen the goose.

Sixtieschick should be real thankful that THIS ain't crappin' in California.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 11:20 AM

This ain't a bad thang, but is is different. The goose what laid THIS egg was HUGE.

Really big egg. (Vegreville, Alberta.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Willie-O
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 11:45 AM

Exported David Frum, Pamela Anderson and Celine Dion. All to the U.S, as if it needed them.

Especially Frum. Sorry about that. A most annoying little man.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Metchosin
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 12:31 PM

Someone knocked off poor old Frank the Baggage Handler's penis in Penticton.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Metchosin
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 12:35 PM

Of course it might have been so cold at the time it could have froze the balls off a brass monkey too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 12:38 PM

gnu - Who are the Quinlan quints?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 01:03 PM

"Don Harron has made many people laugh with his alter ego, plaid-clad Charlie Farquharson. This Hour Has 22 Minutes's Quinlan Quints -- never mind that there's only four of them -- are unquestionably the dopiest group of flannel-wearing siblings on television."


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 01:12 PM

"The Quinlan Quints - four quintuplets (the fifth one went missing and has never been found) who live in Buchans, Newfoundland and Labrador; portrayed by Cathy Jones, Rick Mercer, Greg Thomey and Mary Walsh (Colin Mochrie plays Mercer's quint role for seasons 9 and 10)."

If you check out, "This hour has 22 minutes" you'll find more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: *daylia*
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 01:22 PM

Seriously though, I think this is one of the worst things 'Canada' has ever done   Is the criminal justice system here fatally flawed, or what??

The price of convicting Paul Bernardo for the murders of Kristen French and Leslie Mahaffy was Homolka's plea bargain, and we now know that price was sickeningly high. Videos that emerged after Homolka secured her deal in 1993 showed her not just participating but revelling in the torture of the two Ontario teenagers, plus the rape of a third woman.

Those images, along with news that Homolka participated in the fatal drugging and rape of her own 15-year-old sister, Tammy, long ago laid ruin to the theory she'd been Bernardo's compliant victim, forced on pain of death to help him live out his monstrous fantasies. But by then the die was cast: swallowing the victim theory whole, Crown lawyers had offered Homolka 12 years in prison on two counts of manslaughter. Bernardo, by comparison, was convicted of first-degree murder and sentenced to life in prison.

How quickly a dozen years have passed. On July 5, 2005, Homolka will walk free from Joliette Institution north of Montreal, a relatively young woman at 35, having paid the debt society asked and completed almost nothing in the way of rehabilitation...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 01:25 PM

And she's still the psychotic garbage she was to begin with. I hope she slips and breaks her neck.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Brían
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 01:49 PM

They made New England seem like an inviting place to go during the Great Depression (I am part French). Although I am impressed by the general openess and progressivenes of Canadian society, (They even are tolerant of my attempts at French), I am amzed at the open bias against Native People and French Acadians I observed in NB.

Brían


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 02:03 PM

There is that here too, Brian. I am in Alberta. The bias seems to go both ways. (I taught for three years on a reserve and for two years in a settlement in the NWT.) Racism is cheap and ugly. No question about that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Brían
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 02:30 PM

It keeps the wheels of Capitalism greased as well.

Brían


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 02:32 PM

Ain't that the truth. Long as we keep hating each other, we'll never have the time to sit down together and figure out who the real problem is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 03:14 PM

exactly!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: gnu
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 07:23 PM

I talked today to a distant, VERY distant cousin. I haven't seen her since she was an infant. She was born and has lived in the States all her mid-thirty or so years. I filled her in a bit on family history and the discussion got around to tunes. It started about our old family and Trad Irish tunes as she had heard that my cousins and I "play".

Then, I mentioned that music is a big thing here and the tradition carries on to "modern" tunes, more to her taste. Then this. She has never heard of April Wine.... she has NEVER HEARD of April Wine! She has NEVER HEARD of Burton or BTO or... you get the picture... when I asked her about The Guess Who, she accused me of playing mind games.

Now, I can understand a young Yank not knowing regional bands, but when they don't know The Hip or Kim Mitchell, or... really... how can anyone not know The Guess Who?

If that's that's really the case, I am a VERY lucky man because I have been graced with some of the best tunes on the planet. As for folk, she has heard of Gordon Lightfoot but what the f*** is a Valdy? Joni who? Is she related to Kim? Natalie who? Rankin what? The Rankins? JC!!!

Apparently, Canada has done a poor job of sharing these joys with the world. And that really is a bad thing.

Leahy! Natalie MacMaster! The Guess Who! April Wine! And on! Never heard of them! Unf***ingreal!!!

I'd like to know if these names are a blank with any other of our brothers to the south. Any of you guys never heard of The Guess Whio?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: heric
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 08:39 PM

I've heard of'm. They do a Lenny Kravitz cover.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: gnu
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 08:49 PM

Hehehehe!!! Of course, if they get a few bucks...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 10:26 PM

I've heard of April Wine, The Guess Who, Natalie McMaster, and the rest. I've even heard of Bruce Murdoch and Patrick Sky and Ian and Sylvia and Stan Rogers. But who's this Gordon Whitefoot or whatever his name it?















Jist funnin' ya. I think he wrote "Mary Ellen Carter," din't he?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 01:10 PM

BUT, the crime of crimes is that so few ever heard Michel Pagliaro. Ya want rock, he got rock. Man does that boy play.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: gnu
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 02:28 PM

Ah, yes, brucie. And, I am surprised so few Canucks have heard of Roch Vosine, or Mitsou (J'mange dat, la.) or... That minds me... seems to me, brucie, you said you lived in La Belle Province for a while, or, at least, Montreal, ahem. Harmonium?

Thanks, Rapaire. Okay, so maybe it's just the yuppie set she hangs with.

Sorry for the thread drift.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 02:36 PM

Harmonium began to make it in Quebec in the mid 1970s. Just about when I was leaving Montreal. Never did get to hear them live.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 03:11 PM

I'm going to Whitehorse in August.

Pray for me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: gnu
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 03:19 PM

I had their first two albums on tape but they got gone. Amazing blend of folk, rock, orchestral (or should thjat be long hair? anyone?), jazz. And, the engineering was far beyond most in those days.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: gnu
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 04:07 PM

Nah. Your gonna love Whitehorse. BTW, you might want to bring some REALLY FUCKING DEEEEEP Woods Off fly repellant. Just a thought.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 06:14 PM

Well, a lot of Canadians haven't heard of Harry Lee Wigley either, eh? I don't think we should go throwing snowballs when we're living in igloos. Know what I'm sayin'?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 06:22 PM

Hate to admit it, but I just read my last post as "I'm going to a whorehouse in August."

I dunno -- I've already been to the BIG cities of the Yukon: Beaver Creek, Destruction Bay. Whitehorse is gonna have to go some to beat Beaver Creek, lemme tell ya. The nightlife, the cuisine...why, I hadn't had such a time since I'd left, oh, Tok.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 11:05 PM

Tuktoyaktuk?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 11:36 PM

No, the place in Alaska. The website is more exciting than the town, unless there's a car wreck or something.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 11:42 PM

Haven't been there, but it's lots bigger than Fort Good Hope. I spent eighteen years there in 22 months.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: TS
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 11:32 AM

Brian...far ffrom excusing OR denying it..but in NB we don't have the Native population like other areas and in school we don't learn a great deal about it. So really, if you are unfamiliar with a culture, how can it be bias? As for les Acadiens, moi je suis biligne. Je suis anglophone. Je suis fiere d'etre Irlandais-Canadien, et j'aime l'histoire du N-B. I know I don't share the same sentiments as EVERYONE in the Province, but where BOTH languages are spoken at any given moment and you CANT get a Gov't job withoutt knowing both languages. I think any bias comes from the fact that CERTAIN (not all) Acadiens forget they are Canadians first. But we deal with that coast-to-coast..be they Acadiens, Newfoundlanders, Cape Bretoners, etc,or the reverse...those in Ontario, Alberta, or BC who believe they are the only REAL Canadians.

TS


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 11:49 AM

A game of tag with no rules, and everyone thinks they're it.

I think of our military--such as it is--and am very aware that regardless of ancestry/race/language, the guy or gal will lay it down for me and my family, and they'll do it without inquiring as to my background. The SAR people and other rescue types around don't ask who they are going in after. It's enough to know that someone needs help and they go give that.

I have met racists in Canada, but truthfully, they seem to be the exception, not the rule.

BM


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 12:10 PM

Nobody in BC believes that, TC. We know we are the only real British Columbians. And we are somewhat fond of our Albertan brothers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: TS
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 12:33 PM

well boys and giirls..we're beating a dead horse now...we know ALL Canadians aren't racist, we know that ALL Quebecois are not against Canada, we know ALL British Columbians aren't pompous. We ARE all Canadians and generally think of our own region as the best region for one reason or another..coming from a PROUD Maritimer who loves living in Saskatchewan..and that my friends..is one of the best things about being a Canadian.

Back to the BAD things we've done..how about BLACK MONDAY..or a possible alliance between the Reds and Oranges...here's something to consider..of use a crayon and mix red and orange...a rather unappitizing colour if I do say so..

cheers!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 01:29 PM

I was in Halifax when the Canadian naval forces captured -- by force! -- an innocent American fishing vessel. And I was shocked, yes indeed, SHOCKED to the very depths of my soul, let me tell you! Just because a Fisheries Inspector boarded the fishing vessel because it was fishing in Canadian waters, and the vessel took off for Gloucester with the inspector and failed to heave to when ordered -- was that ANY REASON for a Canadian special forces-type unit, armed with submachine guns, no less! -- to board the vessel from a helicopter and have TWO Canadian Coast Guard ships -- ARMED ships, with the guns ready to shoot! -- standing by? And was any of it a good reason to jail the skipper, deport the crew, keep the boat, and auction off the catch?

Oh, sure. Call it what you will -- kidnapping, failure to stop, disregard of the fishing laws, or whatever -- but CANADA attacked an innocent US fishing vessel!

Hmph!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: gnu
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 01:40 PM

Oops. Sorry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: TS
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 01:50 PM

Our Coastguard aren't armed..the guys with were no more than a simple boarding party...the "submachine guns" were C-7's (a weaker version of an M-16). just clarifying...but...as gnu said..."oops.sorry"..but it IS illegal to fish in foreign waters..


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 02:05 PM

Got caught, didn't they?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 02:26 PM

Sure did. This was back around 1988, and my wife and I cheered on the CGC.

I can't imagine what the hell the skipper of the fishing boat was thinking, tearing off for the US with a Canadian Fisheries Inspector on board.

Actually, I think that they got off rather lightly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: TS
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 02:33 PM

hmm..ok..first..I now have lunch and about 4 cups of coffee into me..secondly..I took some nice pills before bed last night and my head is still a bit foggy from it..so please accept my apology for not tasting the bitter sweet sarcasm in the "wow is me" portion of the previous message Rapaire...Cheers!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: heric
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 02:49 PM

They made Molson's Canadian and fed to their own population.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 03:25 PM

Heric has us all on that one.

Brador was even worse. If you can believe that. Much like--well, imagine an equine derivative, liquid in nature and supposedly quite poor in taste. People who have sampled both prefer the unadulterated stuff from the horse. An', that's a fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: TS
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 03:48 PM

Can't help but notice that no one argued Heric's comment.. (enter cricket sound here)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 May 05 - 11:50 PM

Canada is currently the world's second biggest chrysotile (white asbestos) exporter, sending this class 1 carcinogen to countries with few, if any, safeguards, where it is used by poorly trained and uninformed workers with little access to medical care or sickness benefits.

Dr. Jukka Takala, Director of InFocus Programme SafeWork at the International Labour Organisation (ILO), has estimated the number of work-related asbestos deaths from mesothelioma, lung cancer, asbestosis and other diseases worldwide as 100,000 every year, and growing.

The Canadian and Québec governments, the asbestos industry and the unions representing its workers maintain that chrysotile can be used safely under "carefully controlled conditions." An intensive disinformation campaign in Canada and abroad is lead by the Asbestos Institute, a heavily subsidized industry public relations organization. However, Canada exports more than 95% of all the asbestos it produces and critics suggest that the Canadian principle of "safe use" is impossible to enforce in the third World countries where the asbestos in imported. They say "safe use" is a hypocritical ploy to profit from the export of a substance too hazardous to be used at home.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 01 May 05 - 11:56 PM

BB, thank you. I have been waiting for you to post this. I will not, unlike you, be gauche enough to mention what a certyain country is doing in another certain country. That I will reserve for the Pax Americana thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 May 05 - 12:00 AM

It mines more than 320,000 tons of asbestos a year, more than 90 percent of which is exported to other countries, including the United States.

*******************

Now that most North American and European con-struction legislation has banned totally the use of as-bestos in human habitation, what have Canada asbestos miners and manufacturers done with 95% of our Canadian asbestos? Guess! Sold it and shipped it off to the third world to use in its building projects, markets in Thailand, Singapore, Brazil, India and other developing nations.

Most of Canada's toxic asbestos goes to Asian countries. But it's all okey-dokey, say the many government-sponsored "safety" agencies.

**********************

Chrétien followed the official line that Canadian asbestos – 'white' chrysotile, like that exported to Chile – is safe. Sounding much like a press release from the Quebec-based, industry-funded Asbestos Institute, the Canadian Government has been suggesting that chrysotile, which has been mined and used in Canada for nearly a century, is a 'new and safe' form of asbestos. However, they omit to tell the public exactly where they've found the scientific evidence to back up such assertions. The reason we are never shown this documentation is simple: it doesn't exist.


*************************

Asbestos is a word that has lost much of the meaning it once held for Canadians. Within our own country we have essentially prohibited its sale, use and manufacture. The 'magic mineral' has faded from our collective memory. We have forgotten how prevalent it once was in brake linings, cement sheets, flooring, tiles, packing and textiles. We have also forgotten about asbestosis, mesothelioma (a deadly and incurable form of cancer which gives its victims between 6 and 24 months to live) and various other types of cancers including throat, oesophagal, laryngeal, kidney, stomach and colorectal.

Ask the average Canadian what they know and you will likely hear something along the lines of: 'That stuff will kill you. It causes cancer. That's why we don't use it any more.' Exactly. Chrysotile asbestos, still heavily mined in Quebec, isn't used precisely because it kills. It will continue to kill those Canadians exposed to it in the past as well as those who handle it today. What most Canadians aren't aware of is that our Federal Government, in partnership with the Province of Quebec and its asbestos industry, is peddling the deadly dust abroad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 May 05 - 12:02 AM

The Canadian Government and their 'impartial' Asbestos Institute experts claimed that under regulated conditions asbestos could be used without posing any risk to human health. Yet in even the most stringently regulated conditions, like those in Canada and the US, workers continue to be exposed to deadly fibers and fall victim to asbestosis and mesothelioma. If workers are dying from exposure even here, imagine what conditions must be like in nations lacking even the bare minimum of regulatory mechanisms. It's precisely these countries to which Canada is exporting its 'magic mineral'.

Time and time again those who have visited asbestos-manufacturing plants in the South return with stories of horrific working conditions. A 1980s exposé of Thailand – one of Canada's key markets – revealed employees who spend their days in clouds of dust without respirators. They split open bags of asbestos with their bare hands. They walk home to their families covered in layers of dust. In India, both women and children were found working with asbestos. Many importing countries like Turkey, the Philippines and Singapore have such repressive regimes that anyone who raises concerns may find themselves out of a job or in trouble with the police. 'Controlled use' doesn't offer much protection to workers here.

********************


Yet Canada persists in its promotion of asbestos and has vowed to seek out new markets for the deadly fiber. One can only hope that the message is heard and understood: the Canadian Government is not selling development, but death sentences in the form of a 'magic mineral.'


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 02 May 05 - 12:07 AM

"Indeed, the true weapons of mass destruction are the jet fighters, tanks, machine guns and other military exports that the United States ships to nondemocratic countries -- a record $8.3 billion worth in the 1997 fiscal year, the last year for which figures are available."

In the spirit of your post on the Pax Americana thread, here ya go. So while I compose a letter objecting to this practise on Canada's part, perhaps you might do the same regarding America's role in THIS bad thing. Whadyasay, huh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 May 05 - 12:09 AM

Worldwide, deaths due to asbestos are expected to rise to at least 1 million over the next 30 years, while millions more will die in developing countries for decades to come because asbestos is in growing use there.

http://www.eye.net/eye/issue/issue_10.28.99/news/asbestos.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 02 May 05 - 12:13 AM

Good night, Bruce. Argue more tomorrow. A day without you is a day without sunshine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: GUEST,.uncleSAM
Date: 02 May 05 - 12:15 AM

At the shower I f"-ed her backside



Unfilling to unite I spawned fifty others.



Sincerly,

Uncle Sammy


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: number 6
Date: 02 May 05 - 12:26 AM

BB ..... thanks for posting that info. I think a lot of Canadians are totally unaware this.


sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 May 05 - 12:49 AM

"Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: brucie
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:49 PM

Hey, we beat the crap outta baby seals."

Not since the 1970's ya h'ingorant 'angashore mainlander.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 May 05 - 02:10 AM

brucie,

**************************
Did Canadian Weapons Kill Peaceful Protestors in Papua New Guinea on June 26?

Coalition to Oppose the Arms Trade calls upon the Canadian government to immediately halt all exports of police and military equipment to PNG.

Canadian-made C7 "combat rifles" are likely the weapons used by Papua New Guinea (PNG) police to kill at least three peaceful protestors and wound 17 others in Port Moresby on Tuesday, June 26, 2001.

University of PNG students were shot this week when their five-day, non-violent protest was violently dispersed by PNG police using teargas and M16 rifles.

Diemaco, a "small arms" manufacturer in Kitchener, Ontario, has sold its automatic weapons to PNG. Diemaco's entry in Industry Canada's online database of "Canadian Defence Company Capabilities" reports that it has "export experience" to Papua New Guinea.

The Canadian government has designated Diemaco to be "Canada's Centre of Excellence for Small Arms." Diemaco produces several "small arms" in the C7 "Family of Combat Weapons."

The C7 is the Canadian version of the U.S. M16. It is produced by Diemaco under licence from the U.S. Colt Manufacturing Company.


*****************

Per capita, what are the CANADIAN arms sales to the world? I have heard how the US is such a huge consumer of material and the most industrialized nation, but on a per capita basis what countries export the MOST arms?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 May 05 - 02:19 AM

"based on figures in the United Nations Register, Canada accounts for less than 1 percent of the world arms market), "
http://www.dfait-maeci.gc.ca/trade/eicb/military/military_Export-en.asp



with what percentage of the world's population?
32,805,041 (July 2005 est.) / 6,446,131,400 (July 2005 est.)
....0.5089 per cent
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/xx.html



Sounds like Canada has it's share of the world arms market...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 May 05 - 02:26 AM

Canada's Military Exports Increased in 1998
By Richard Sanders

The Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade (DFAIT) recently
released its ninth annual report, Export of Military Goods from Canada.
This report lists dollar amounts and equipment types for Canadian military
exports to 61 countries during 1998.


According to this report, Canada's military exports increased by 38%, from
$304 million in 1997 to $421 million, in 1998. These figures, however, do
not included exports to the U.S. This is the most significant flaw in
these reports because the U.S. buys more military equipment from Canada
than the rest of the world combined!

........................................................................

Another flaw in DFAIT's reports is that they do not include any "dual use"
equipment, such as helicopters, that can be used for civilian or military
purposes.


Despite Canada's reputation as a nation which values peacekeeping, we
continue to sell military hardware to governments which are notorious for
violating human rights. Among the governments purchasing Canadian military
hardware are some of the world's most corrupt and violent regimes. The
military and police forces in many of the countries armed by Canada are
well known to routinely engage in torture and extrajudicial executions.

Below this table, you will find the key to "Military Equipment Types" which
are cited here.


A Partial Listing of Canadian Military Exports (1997)

Recipient            Military               Value of exports in 1997
Governments    Equipment Types               (in Cdn $)

Argentina      1                              $137,389
   
Botswana       10                           $3,728,231
   
Brazil         3, 10, 14                   $3,363,152
   
Chile          1, 5, 11                      $597,776
   
China          10, 11                         $814,170
   
Egypt          10, 11                         $622,403
   
Israel          3, 6, 9, 10, 11, 15          $783,455
      
Jordan          1, 10, 11, 18                $187,795

Korea (South)   3, 5, 9, 10, 11, 14         $4,719,275
   
Malaysia       3, 10, 14, 18, 21          $91,792,358
   
Mexico          1, 3, 10                   $1,671,730
   
Morocco         10, 14                        $171,652
   
Oman            4, 11                         $467,940
   
Peru            11                            $69,550

Philippines    10                         $1,069,175
   
Saudi Arabia    6, 10, 11, 14             $29,800,192
   
Singapore       2, 4, 10, 11, 14, 18       $2,857,066
   
Taiwan          9, 10, 11, 14, 15          $3,202,336
   
Thailand       1, 3, 6, 10, 11, 18       $37,174,639
   
Turkey          4, 10, 14                   $3,531,616
   
U.A.E.          3, 10                      $4,123,639
   
Venezuela       10                            $523,106


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 May 05 - 02:28 AM

International Arms Trade

Canada was the world's ninth largest arms exporter in 1997.[1] We ranked even higher, however, in terms of our military exports to the "Third World." In that category, we ranked seventh.[2]

The Key to Military Equipment Types," on page 5, outlines the wide range of Canadian military exports. These numbered equipment types are referred to in many of the tables in this issue. All of the data on Canada's military exports is from annual reports published by the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade (DFAIT), called Export of Military Goods from Canada.[3]

These reports are significantly flawed. They omit all data on military exports to the U.S., which is by far, our largest buyer. The magnitude of this flaw is evidenced by DFAIT's estimate that 80% of Canadian military exports in 1997 went to the U.S.![4]


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 May 05 - 02:30 AM

One need only examine the evidence amassed here to see that Canadian corporations and the government are still very much complicit in crimes against peace, crimes against humanity and war crimes. Some of the governments purchasing Canadian military hardware are notorious for violating human rights. Many so-called "security" forces armed by Canada are well known to routinely engage in torture and extrajudicial executions.

In 1998, the following countries purchased Canadian military hardware, even though torture by their military and/or police was reported that year by Amnesty International to be "widespread," "endemic," "systematic," "officially sanctioned," "frequent" or "commonplace": Argentina, Brazil, China, Egypt, Israel, Mexico, Peru, Philippines, Turkey and Venezuela.

Between 1990 and 1998, the Canadian government permitted the military exports to numerous undemocratic and repressive regimes. For instance, Canada has sold arms to:

Brunei, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Oman: Countries which have never had any elections;
Bahrain: Its only legislature has been dissolved by decree since 1975;
Kuwait: Women still do not have the right to vote or stand for election;
Algeria, Egypt, Jordan, Kenya, Mauritania, Morocco, Lebanon, Pakistan, Singapore, St. Vincent, Togo and Turkey: Women held less than 5% of the seats in parliament in 1999;
Bahrain, China, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and the UAE: Unions, strikes and collective bargaining are strictly outlawed; and * India, Kuwait, Lebanon, Mozambique, Oman, Pakistan, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, Sri Lanka, Tanzania and UAE: Central governments spent more on their militaries than on health and education combined.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 May 05 - 02:33 AM

http://www.corpwatch.org/print_article.php?&id=429


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 May 05 - 02:35 AM

http://www.canadiandemocraticmovement.ca/displayarticle37.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 May 05 - 02:41 AM

So, brucie, have any more stones to throw?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: dianavan
Date: 02 May 05 - 02:55 AM

I notice that your figures are a few years old. Do you have any current figures?

I'm especially interested in knowing the names of these small arms manufacturers. I also wonder if they are Canadian owned industries.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 May 05 - 03:50 AM

I was responding to the message from brucie:

BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: brucie - PM
Date: 02 May 05 - 12:07 AM

"Indeed, the true weapons of mass destruction are the jet fighters, tanks, machine guns and other military exports that the United States ships to nondemocratic countries -- a record $8.3 billion worth in the 1997 fiscal year, the last year for which figures are available."


Names of companies are given in the reports Google "canada military exports". Ownership is sometimes listed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Metchosin
Date: 02 May 05 - 04:20 AM

Yup, Canada and Canadian business tries real hard to be a player like its big buddy, the good old USA. Of course, it had some ways to go, to catch up with U.S. military exports in 1997 of $21.3 billion, $8.3 billion of which went to 52 countries where the US State Department says citizens are not allowed to choose their government democratically. But Canada can't let the side down, doncha know. The US sometimes has trouble recognizing Canada as a friend, when Canada doesn't get involved in the same rotten games that the US plays.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 02 May 05 - 10:25 AM

We are for sure angels with dirty faces. But then we often sleep with the Devil.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: TS
Date: 02 May 05 - 11:10 AM

wow...someone needs a life...BB..when's the last time you powered off your computer and stepped outsided for a breath of fresh air. Shame on Canada for having a Military, or for developing capable arms for our Military and for making these same arms available for other Nations to ensure their sovranty. Oh...ps..the M-16 was sold to Canada by the US. Canada made some slight beauty alterations and sold it back to the US.

Slainte!
TS


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: GUEST,Brucesbeard
Date: 02 May 05 - 01:00 PM

The US sells about 45% of all of the arms sold in the world. Canada sells about 1%, in population and economically the US is about 10 times larger than Canada and it sells 45 times as much in arms.

So per capita, the US is between four and five times as bad as Canada.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: DougR
Date: 02 May 05 - 05:27 PM

If we are to believe our Canadian Mudcat friends, Canada is the land of milk and honey and can do NO wrong. Canadians are so strong, and straight-minded they can live next to a neighbor that commits sin after sin on mankind without it rubbing off on them. Canada do something wrong! Perish the thought!
:>)
DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: GUEST,Rapaire
Date: 03 May 05 - 10:02 AM

This is kinda interesting.
So's this article.

No nation anywhere has clean hands. None.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: GUEST
Date: 03 May 05 - 10:44 AM

"...managed maritime boundary disputes with the US at Dixon Entrance, Beaufort Sea, Strait of Juan de Fuca, and around the disputed Machias Seal Island and North Rock." (from the CIA's World Factbook website).

As a US citizen, I, for one, will not rest until this pressing issue has been resolved with our good neighbors to the north.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: GUEST,DougRs
Date: 03 May 05 - 12:33 PM

DougR

Can you please show us an example of a Canadian Mudcatter doing that, all I see are 25 or so examples of Canadian Mudcatters criticizing Canada and a number of innocuous comments.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 03 May 05 - 07:03 PM

This thread was started by a Canadian.

1) Residential schools
2) Uranium
3) Asbestos
4) Reserves (for people) without which they would have NO land at all

Doug, there are very few of my countrymen/women who would ever tell you we are guiltless. We are not. Most of us know that, and some of us work to rectify the problems which we see as shameful reflections of our country.

"If we are to believe our Canadian Mudcat friends, Canada is the land of milk and honey and can do NO wrong. Canadians are so strong, and straight-minded they can live next to a neighbor that commits sin after sin on mankind without it rubbing off on them. Canada do something wrong! Perish the thought."

Cheap, and beneath you, Doug.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: robomatic
Date: 04 May 05 - 05:35 AM

sex
sociopaths
felonious mopery
   strings attached :
"Puppets Who Kill"


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 04 May 05 - 10:19 AM

OK. That's Washington. But it's beginning to seem lots like Ottawa, too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 May 05 - 07:19 PM

TS,

Shame on the US for having a Military, or for developing capable arms for our Military and for making these same arms available for other Nations to ensure their sovranty.


The whole point of this thread was to move my comments off another thread, where I was pointing out that the excuse that the reason people in Canad were criticising the US and not the terrorists was that the US was "closer to home". I have shown that they are living in a glass house, and perhaps should think before they throw stones.

I have no problem with criticism of the US- we certainly deserve our FAIR share of it. But to insist that ONLY the US should be held accountable for it's actions is a little.... biased?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 04 May 05 - 08:49 PM

So, BB. In your own words, what exactly has America done wrong?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 May 05 - 09:01 PM

In my own words?

We failed to interdict the movement of terrorists into Iraq during and after the war. We failed to detain those Iraqis that had supported Saddam. We failed to persuade the rest of the Arab world that we did not intend to remain in Iraq.


What we SHOULD have done was stand outside the border, and when Saddam refused to comply with the UN resolutions back in 1994 nuc'ed the entire country into glass. THEN we would have NO US causualties, and the Left would be happy.

(NOTE THIS IS SARCASTIC COMMENT! )


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 May 05 - 09:03 PM

Now, in your own words, What has Canada done to help the world situation re Iran and N. Korea? Obviously, YOU know how to deal with the problem, and can take full responsibility for whatever happens...


NOT.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 04 May 05 - 09:05 PM

Bruce, Be nice. You say the US has done some bad things. I asked what bad things. You pile on a bunch of sarcasm.

If that's the way you want to be, fuck off.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 May 05 - 09:08 PM

The first paragraph was the answer to what, IMO, the US did wrong.

This thread is about Canada, remember? If you want to discuss the US, we should start a thread to do so..... Remember when you started this thread?...


Have a nice day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 04 May 05 - 09:16 PM

Sorry, Bruce. But after that bullshit I no longer read your posts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 May 05 - 09:19 PM

In other words, having answered your question, you will concede the moral high ground to me? Thank you very much.


I had thought we were having a discussion here, but obviously not...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: DougR
Date: 05 May 05 - 01:04 AM

brucie: "cheap, beneith you." Surely you jest! Other than Rick Fielding, who unfortunately is no longer with us, I cannot think of one Candadian Mudcatter who doesn't relish the opportunity to bash the U. S. Can you?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Metchosin
Date: 05 May 05 - 01:49 AM

beardedbruce, "Shame on the US for having a Military, or for developing capable arms for our Military and for making these same arms available for other Nations to ensure their sovranty."?

By your own reasoning, why should Canada's involvement in the continued manufacturing of arms, be considered, by you, a bad thing that Canada has done?

Is this a dislike of competition by others in a free market economy with US manufacturers or, is there some moral issue, on your part, with regard to the sale of arms?

For most Canadians here at Mudcat, the manufacture and sale of weapons by Canada is not news and has been commented upon before in other threads. I can recall myself posting, a couple of years back, something regarding the manufacture of gumby and pokey dolls in the same Canadian Hamm chemical factory that was manufaturing napalm or some such thing, to supply the US during the war in Vietnam.

It is very useful to the US to have Canada appear as an independant nation state at times at odds with US policy, while at the same time supplying the US with valuable information as well, from a position not available directly to the US. This was certainly the case during the Vietnam war and I doubt little has changed in the halls of power behind the scene, in subsequent years.

DougR, in this country, unless one is decidedly apolitical or oblivious, sometimes it is difficult for Canadians not to feel the need to comment on stuff which directly affects them as well. This does not mean that Canadians do not have great fondness for many Americans as individuals or an admiration for some aspects of US society, particularly in areas where Canada lags. (Whistleblowers come to my mind in particular and freedom of information regarding the machinations of government). Whatever routes the US decides to pursue, affects us directly more than any other nation on earth.      

And, if the US feels the right to mould other nations in its own image, why be suprised that others feel the need to comment. As Pierre Elliot Trudeau remarked, Canada's relationship with the United States is like that of "a mouse in bed with an elephant…no matter how friendly…one is affected by every twitch and grunt."


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: dianavan
Date: 05 May 05 - 02:19 AM

Metchosin has a point, "Is this a dislike of competition by others in a free market economy with US manufacturers or, is there some moral issue, on your part, with regard to the sale of arms?"

I think Canada should sell Korea our beef and lumber, too. The U.S. is making it pretty hard for Canada to trade freely across the border.

Hmmm...I wonder what we could trade for middle east oil.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 05 - 02:40 AM

Metchosin,

My comment was in response to the earlier post, between the lines here:
__________________________________________________________________
Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: TS - PM
Date: 02 May 05 - 11:10 AM

wow...someone needs a life...BB..when's the last time you powered off your computer and stepped outsided for a breath of fresh air. Shame on Canada for having a Military, or for developing capable arms for our Military and for making these same arms available for other Nations to ensure their sovranty. Oh...ps..the M-16 was sold to Canada by the US. Canada made some slight beauty alterations and sold it back to the US.

Slainte!
TS
_____________________________________________________________________

"By your own reasoning, why should Canada's involvement in the continued manufacturing of arms, be considered, by you, a bad thing that Canada has done? "

*I* do not- but the US was being blamed for it, so that it must be a bad thing...



Feel free to trade all the beef and timber you like to N. Korea- But when they tell you you have to send more or they will use a nuclear bomb on you, ( like they are threatening about US energy aid, which THEY violated the terms for) I guess you can just buy it from the US to send to them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 May 05 - 04:37 AM

Does anybody remember the Huckleberry Hound adventure when Huck was a mountie and he was after the outlaw Powerful Pierre?

a classic in its time


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: podman
Date: 05 May 05 - 04:48 AM

Slightly off the point, but Warner Bros. had border character "Speedy Gonzalez" to save the day to the South. Did they ever try a northern border parody?

Yeah, I know about Dudley Do-Right - Different company.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 May 05 - 06:35 PM

I think that in all of this something must be remembered: an action of which the US disapproves, by Canada or any other country, is not automatically anti-US, but should be considered as pro-Canadian unless proven otherwise.

There is a difference.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 05 - 06:47 PM

as long as the following is also accepted:

an action of which Canada disapproves, by the US or any other country, is not automatically anti-Canada, but should be considered as pro-US unless proven otherwise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 05 - 06:52 PM

What an idiot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 05 - 06:54 PM

Yes, brucie, you are. I did not accuse YOU of being narrow-minded, then state I would ignore the posts that I might disagree with.


But I guess you have no idea of treating others as you would want to be treated.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 05 - 06:55 PM

You wanted an enemy you got one. Wish I'd read the remark above.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 05 - 06:59 PM

brucie,

You asked me to this thread, where I answered the off-thread questions, and then refused to address my ON-topic ones. I have no desire for enemies- but if you insist on being a shit-for-brains, I will continue to point it out to the world.

And at least I am open minded enough to read points of view I might disagree with.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 05 - 07:00 PM

Another unread post by the Conservative wonder.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Beer
Date: 05 May 05 - 09:37 PM

Before the sponsership scandal became known to the public there was this commercial on t.v. that asked you to report your neighbour if he made $5.00 under the table. I can't be sure if it was a Provincial thing or Federal but it doesn't really matter. The point is that the majority of the politicians in question involved in the sponsership program have the gaul to say with raised hands, I know nothing, It wasen't me. No,no, not I, and so on. How truly discusting.
I was also In Montreal during the October crises. Got stopped on the Champlain Bridge about 10:30 p.m. Think I may have had a few to many. They didn't do much about those things back then. Probably coming back from one of your gigs Brucie
Beer


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 05 - 09:50 PM

I got stopped, too. Was near the CN station (near the old Sunlife Building). Some boys from the Vandoos. Wanted to know what was in my guitar case. I could never shut my mouth, ya know, and I responded, "An FN-C1." Had to open the case and play them a few songs. Before I left, we were gettin' along just fine. However, it was a bit tense there for a few seconds.

We must have met, but you didn't go by the name Beer then.

BM


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: bobad
Date: 05 May 05 - 09:59 PM

Hey Beer

Loved your use of the word "gaul" in your post, lots of shades of meaning there for us ex-Quebecers.

Reminds me of the old joke about England selling Gibralter to France who were going to rename it DeGaul stone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 05 - 10:57 PM

Homolka


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Metchosin
Date: 06 May 05 - 05:39 AM

beardedbruce, sorry, I missed TJ's original post. So let me get this straight.....you believe that selling armaments to non-democratic nations that abuse human rights is a good thing that Canada has done....and that the bad thing Canada has done is blame the US for Canada's good thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 06 May 05 - 09:59 AM

That oughta add at least thirty-seven cut-and-pastes about asbestos to this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Metchosin
Date: 06 May 05 - 11:10 AM

Not necessarily brucie, mining and selling asbestos might be a good thing and only a bad thing, if the US is blamed for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: GUEST,Jawbone
Date: 06 May 05 - 12:25 PM

Is it true "Canada" was named by Portugese sailors - Ca nada meaning "Here, there is nothing"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Metchosin
Date: 06 May 05 - 01:03 PM

For the Portugese that could very well be true, the cod stocks are depleted. For Americans it still means oil and gas, water, hydroelectric power, lumber and prime waterfront real estate where the more wealthy among them can build their large summer homes in order to escape the sturm and drang of their own country and try some fishing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: gnu
Date: 06 May 05 - 04:10 PM

Jawbone... that is one theory (which is incorrect... the French inadvertently named Canada after the Native Peoples' word for village - yeah, I know, we are the village people... piss off).

However, re the Portugese, "... Ca nada meaning "Here, there is nothing"?", you should really quote the entire translation which conveys much more meaning..... "Why the fuck would you ever go way ta Jaysus up there ? There's nuthin but skeeters in the summer and snow in the winter. You nuts or somethin?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Beer
Date: 06 May 05 - 05:07 PM

No Brucie, we never met. I use to hang around the Irish pubs and the Blue Bird (wagon wheel). I was on my way there the night it was tourched and 42 lives were lost. Oh, and the Fathers Mustache was a great hang out.
Beer


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: DougR
Date: 06 May 05 - 05:09 PM

Metchosin: To say nothing of the rich Canadians who make Arizona their home during Canada's much harsher winters.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 06 May 05 - 05:24 PM

Metchosin is a better Canadian than you are an American, Doug. She questions her government and recognizes that there have been historical injustices that continue to this day, and she works with her art to help correct those things.

For you, it's Bush right or wrong. For this lady, well, she doesn't buy the party line. You might think about trying that for yourself sometime.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: dianavan
Date: 07 May 05 - 03:08 AM

DougR - Arizona is also home to many Americans from your colder states. I don't think you can be called rich if you live in a trailer in the middle of a desert. Warmer, maybe, but not richer.

To own a summer, waterfront home in B.C., you would definitely have to be wealthy. Only the wealthy get to swim in clean water, breathe fresh air and fish in front of their homes. There are plenty of Americans who do just that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: GUEST,AJ
Date: 19 May 05 - 12:06 PM

I moved to The us In 1995 when we lost the referendum. Even if I was living in Canada I always felt like a Quebec Citizen. I speak english so are my kids. But it's time for QUEBEC to become a country. Canada is not a real country the only people making money are the politiciens,a bunch of crooks. I will be back in my country the day it will become : UN PAYS Le QUEBEC. What i HAte about CAnada:
EEVVEERRYYTTHHIINNGG!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Metchosin
Date: 19 May 05 - 12:13 PM

Glad you left, AJ. And if you think you will join the ranks of people finally "making money" in a separate Quebec with a Quebec currency, dream on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: GUEST,AJ
Date: 19 May 05 - 12:45 PM

We would be making more money, We would use US Currency. How smart hey!!!
Without Quebec, Canada will Die, BC will leave and Ontario will have to pay for everybody cool hey!!! They will leave also!!!! don't you think!!! Proud Quebecer and Proud American!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 19 May 05 - 12:49 PM

Hope you fermezed la porte on the way out, AJ.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: bobad
Date: 19 May 05 - 12:55 PM

AJ

Liberate yourself from the chains of ethnic nationalism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Leadfingers
Date: 19 May 05 - 12:57 PM

Being a COMPLETE Racialist , the worst thing Canada has ever done was let the French in !! "BG"

Oh - By the way --200 !!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Leadfingers
Date: 19 May 05 - 12:58 PM

BUGGER !! It definately showed 199 when I clicked on it !!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: GUEST,AJ
Date: 19 May 05 - 12:59 PM

So, Just stop Begging us to Stay. We want a divorce. I will give you a good way to let us go. Vote for Bloc Quebecois on the next elections. I can promise you that if they win Quebec will leave you alone forever. LOL....


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: GUEST,AJ
Date: 19 May 05 - 01:03 PM

LeadFingers:

You should go back to school and study your Canadian History and why not the US History at the same time...You may find something there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 05 - 01:14 PM

Every post I have made I have never mention anything about Ethnic!!!
I think You have. My Kids are Perfectly Bilingual I married A fantastic woman Fron ONTARIO . I have worked with 34 Different nationalities. I have learned everything about them in order to understand their way of living, their religion etc. in order to make me a better person. Quebec independence has NOTHING to do with ethnic,religion,language,. We have learned to respect people for who they are. R.E.S.P.E.C.T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 19 May 05 - 01:17 PM

You might want a divorce AJ, but the majority of Quebecers voted against it in the referendum (it's called democracy). Those people know which side their pain is burred. When it comes to a Canadian election they vote Bloc; when it comes to independence they vote Canada. I for one would honour Quebec's independence should it occur. However, there are important considerations to factor in: The Cree, the northern parts of the province that would not be ceded, the St. Laurence waterway, Uncle Sam's dime's worth, etc. Evidently, most Quebecois are smarter than jumping into that abyss.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: bobad
Date: 19 May 05 - 01:19 PM

AJ

Who is the "nous" in maitres chez nous ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: GUEST,AJ
Date: 19 May 05 - 01:26 PM

When Quebec separate in Quebec it will be Nous, in Whatever left of Canada... it can be you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: GUEST,AJ
Date: 19 May 05 - 01:29 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: bobad
Date: 19 May 05 - 01:29 PM

Je ne comprends pas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 19 May 05 - 01:30 PM

Surely it will be 'them' if you've abandoned it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: GUEST,AJ
Date: 19 May 05 - 01:38 PM

I agree Democraty is very important. on the next Referendum if both Camps are honest, the results may change or not. But you have to realise that if it is not now, or in 5 years, one day the vote will change and Quebec will become independent. It may take time but it will happen.If the Federal Gov. continue the way they are doing now it will be sooner than Later....lol... Like I said I am now a US citizen and proud to be an American.(some would say good thing you left AJ.....lol...)but I am still registered to vote in Canada and I wouldn't miss it for anything.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 19 May 05 - 01:50 PM

Good luck in your new country, AJ. Come back anytime. I would hope an independent Quebec would be Canada's best friend.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 May 05 - 01:55 PM

AJ

You don't understand. Quebec doesn't have the guts to seperate. Quebec "culture" is way too fragile to survive without Canadian subsidies and legal protection. And don't blame the feds. Quebec IS the federal freaking government. It has been since Diefenbaker. If Quebec were to try to become a "nation", in ten years they'd be more American and anglo than Louisiana.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: GUEST,AJ
Date: 19 May 05 - 02:25 PM

American have much more respect for French Canadian than Canada. This is probably why everybody feels so different. and I agree with you We don't have the guts. This is why we are still talking about it. In New Hampshire, French and American are very close. Why is it not the same in Canada... Who knows... It's something that started 100 of years ago and it will not change tomorow. Why do you think that the PM Is always From Quebec... They know if an English speaking guy from the rest of Canada become Prime Minister it will be the end of Canada. That is why Harper must go on...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 May 05 - 03:31 PM

If you want Quebec to be another New Hampshire, go ahead and seperate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: GUEST,AJ
Date: 19 May 05 - 04:02 PM

This is exactly what we are trying to do.
Please Canada, Help Quebec and Vote for the BLOC.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: bobad
Date: 19 May 05 - 04:21 PM

AJ

"This is exactly what we are trying to do."

Who is "we" ? I thought you were an American citizen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: GUEST,AJ
Date: 19 May 05 - 04:50 PM

I still have a Canadian citizenship.So are my kids except 1.
My family is still in Canada. 1/2 of them for... 1/2 of them agains, We have pretty nice Christmas parties.... Specially with my Father in Law from Ontario. lol... You have to understand That independence has nothing to do with languages.nothing at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: bobad
Date: 19 May 05 - 05:52 PM

AJ

What is the basis for Quebec's desire to separate ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 19 May 05 - 08:02 PM

Hello, AJ.

Half my family is English and the other half French. No one in the family ever did or likely ever will vote for an independent Quebec.

Incidentally, I live in Alberta. I think we are the only debt-free province in this country. I know sure as hell Quebec isn't. There was a time when equalization payments went from east to west or east to further east. Not now.

The government of Quebec is no more or less honest or crooked than any other government here. Keep that in mind. But repeatedly we are treated to Quebec in action. Jaysus, son, they couldn't organize a one-car funeral. Think about it.

Bruce Murdoch


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: dianavan
Date: 19 May 05 - 10:58 PM

AJ - I doubt if you speak for all of Quebec. Fact is, if Quebec became a part of the States, it would geographically separate Canada. I don't think my daughter wants to be separated from her family in the Laurentians. I don't think her father has any desire to become an American lap dog.

Most of us are plain tired of hearing the whine about independence when, in fact, you would just become another State with a government who could care less about the people of Quebec. Do you really think those Yanks are going to learn to speak French? No, you will all have to speak English because thats the only language the Americans know how to speak. Once you learn English, the trade begins. Then the Americans will have access to all of your resources and the big rip will begin in earnest. Is this what you want?

What do you think will be gained by Quebec independence?

BTW - Since the budget passed, it looks like you may have to wait awhile. Maybe forever.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: dianavan
Date: 20 May 05 - 12:47 AM

From today's news: google Canadian budget -

"And, while justifiably shocked and disappointed, Canadians are not stupid. They know that civic virtue is not a genetic trait.

After all, Canadians have seen it all — whether it be crooked senior executives raping major corporations, errant priests victimizing the vulnerable, labour bosses criminalizing their unions or corrupt cops compromising law enforcement.

They know that bad apples and rogues are an unfortunate reality, even in normally respected quarters of civilized society.

That is why thoughtful voters have no intention of holding Liberals — or any political party for that matter — to a standard of universal virtue.

They know it is unfair to impugn the integrity of any party's leadership or condemn its entire membership based on the unauthorized and illegal acts of the few.

What Canadians want to know is that the system works, the guilty will be punished and the rules tightened up to reduce the chance of similar abuses happening again.

And, because most Canadians believe in fair play, they also want their politicians, including everyone placed under a cloud by the Gomery process, to be given the benefit of all of the facts before they are judged and sentenced.

For most Canadians, that is why an election now is unnecessary. Our system of government is, in fact, working just fine. Justice is slowly but surely, taking its proper course."

Canadians are just as bad as anyone else but at least they know how to play the game.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 05 - 04:08 PM

Quebec. I remeber the referendum I remember how ticked I was at this french speaking province, whop has been bolstered up finacnailly for years, who take a give very little back, who sing the same sad song about independance and the country of Quebec.

But I also realized that Quebec is not a country and it never has been. Canada has never existed without Quebec in it, and so there is no Canada without Quebec in it.

So AJ here's a thought, if it isn't about language, or ethnicity, or any of those things, then what is it about?

Is it worth more than this-

In all of the world. In all of history. There has never been a country that has made itself out as divergent a population as this one, while still allowing the culture, the history and the tradition of those who make it up to remain as it does in Canada.

TO seperate shows the world that with all of the riches we possess that we cannot live together, under a single government in peace. We demonstrate that human beings of differnet backgrounds can not live together under a unified system of government.

When we stay together, when we work it out as single country we demonstrate to the world, to people everywhere that it can work. That differences in culture, that regionalism can be subsumed into the greater good.

We stand as a beacon that differences in background and language do not preclude membership in a mutual family.

To seperate is to give into the bases of instrincts, to give up on that quiet hope.

It is the action of a lesser country, of a lesser people than we are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 May 05 - 04:22 PM

I, a citizen of the US, was in Montreal, having just returned from a great ski trip to Mont Tremblant. We awakened to a flat tire.

I changed the tire and we drove to a gas station to check the air in the spare. I asked the young man sitting in the repair bay, "Excuse me, but do you have a tire gauge?"

"I am just here from Paris and do not speak English good. Sorry."

I must admit to being ticked off, and responded, "Quelle domage. Je ne parle la Belle Langue" and left.

I would have asked in French if I could have remembered the word for "tire pressure gauge." As it was, I was quite annoyed by the bigotry shown. (And no, he was not "just from Paris" -- I'd heard him conversing in English just before I entered the repair bay.)

That said -- most, if not all, of my other "bad experiences" in Canada were caused by US citizens. When that happens my wife and myself try to hide under the table....


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Metchosin
Date: 20 May 05 - 04:24 PM

well spoken Guest 20 May 05 - 04:08 PM, you brought a tear to my eye.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: gnu
Date: 20 May 05 - 04:50 PM

dianavan, re your post about the budget, Canucks also, I hope, remember that the Progressive Conservative Party was decimated to three MP's after Mulroney... after the country was sold down the river... after twenty two cabinet ministers were indicted on criminal charges for fraud... after he sued the government for defamation of character and was awarded $1M because the RCMP disclosed info prior to charging him in the Air Canada scandal, thereby precluding crucial evidence from being allowed in court and negating any possibility of conviction... after pissing off Quebec and, indeed, all of Canada on the issue of separation...

Now, we have to put up with the likes of Harper who just pissed off every true Canuck because his politics kept our political leaders from attending the VE celebrations... who stands up in front of the camera and accuses the Liberals of corruption? Pot/kettle? Who aligns with the Bloc?????? While the Bloc and the NDP are ALSO implicated as being involved in the "scandal". If the monies did actually get used to try to keep Quebec from separating, will any true Canuck be pissed? Will any true Canuck vote to bring Mulroney back? Oops, I meant Harper, of course. They might not even get three MP's this time around.

Belinda for PM!!!

Okay now, no more Tylenol 3's until after happy hour.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: gnu
Date: 20 May 05 - 05:04 PM

Metchosin... I'll second that. Well said GUEST.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 05 - 06:46 PM

I'll third it. Beautiful post.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: dianavan
Date: 20 May 05 - 06:57 PM

I'll fourth it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: TS
Date: 24 May 05 - 02:31 PM

Well..I'm impressed that AJ's comments actually sparked additional comments. Being a BILINGUAL NBer I have learned to ignore certain "Vive la Quebec libre" ideas.

Slainte!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 May 21 - 01:29 PM

A death camp for little children


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: keberoxu
Date: 28 May 21 - 10:53 PM

Jack Campin, years ago,
when dr. Elisabeth Kuebler-Ross was still well enough to travel
(before she died she was disabled by strokes),
she and her staff would travel up to Kamloops at regular intervals.
This was in order to minister to the survivors in the area,
to use the externalization method she had
to help them deal with post-traumatic issues.
Her method was controversial and
there may be those here who dislike talk of it.

I just mention it, because I had never heard of Kamloops
before coming into contact with
Elisabeth Kuebler-Ross's organization
and hearing how they were working with the survivors
and with the relatives of those who went missing.

I've never forgotten Kamloops from that day to this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Charmion
Date: 29 May 21 - 09:39 AM

The recently uncovered mass grave at Kamloops is yet more evidence of the original sin that lies at the heart of Canada’s settler tradition.

I like to think we’re better than our ancestors, but I suspect we’re just different.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 May 21 - 11:54 AM

The link to a Reddit post isn't particularly helpful. It's like going straight to the remarks under a news story and trying to figure out what it is really about from those alone. It simply doesn't work.

'Unthinkable' discovery in Canada as remains of 215 children found buried near residential school

Unfortunately, this was the case around many of the Indian Schools in the US, and I've heard stories of it being even worse in First Nations schools in Canada. The Catholic church was quite often the culprit running the "schools."


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 May 21 - 12:01 PM

‘Horrible History’: Mass Grave of Indigenous Children Reported in Canada New York Times


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 May 21 - 04:18 PM

I linked to the Reddit thread deliberately - I could have just linked to a news article, but with 5.6K comments in the thread, many from people with first hand experience, the torrent of anger and tears goes far beyond what any paper would publish. It's citizen journalism at its very greatest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: keberoxu
Date: 29 May 21 - 11:12 PM

There is now an official press release from this
First Nation community whose name has been
anglicized to "Kamloops" in British Columbia.

real name: Tk'emlúps te Secwépeme

The spokesperson in this press release references
a grant, titled Pathways to Healing,
which financed the use of ground penetrating radar.
The land and grounds still have areas that have yet to be examined.

Kamloops Indian Band, Office of the Chief


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Charmion
Date: 30 May 21 - 12:02 PM

Jack, with all due respect for your sympathy, even justified angry ranting is not journalism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 May 21 - 01:41 PM

Don't feel superior because you're British. ALL nations have something to be ashamed -- or should be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 May 21 - 02:23 PM

Whataboutery is invariably a moronic response. And it's just obscene for this.

That Reddit thread includes a first-hand account by a 93-year-old man who had never felt able to tell his story before. You don't fucking DARE say he has to shut up because he's not a real journalist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 May 21 - 02:47 PM

Nope. But there is a lot of crap to have to wade through to find a few worthwhile reads in those reddit threads. Tu quoque is a standard response in this kind of topic. Ollaimh has been kicked out or he'd be in here smearing obscenities around.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Charmion
Date: 30 May 21 - 04:06 PM

Jack, memoirs are not journalism either.

Journalists produce opinion essays and accounts of events that are carefully constructed in compliance with the conventions of their profession and the requirements of their publishers. The “first-hand” account — if it is, indeed, what you say it is (I would not believe that from a Reddit posting) — should be considered a memoir.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 May 21 - 09:28 PM

All of which is why I'm not a twit on twitter or a red on reddit or a tik on tiktok. I am on Facebook and LinkedIn and joined when I was a poor working stiff who felt they might be useful -- and I take anything in both with a massive amount of salt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: gnu
Date: 31 May 21 - 08:15 AM

Be a rough job splittin' that, even after frost, eh?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/tree-cedar-truck-viral-social-media-1.6042822


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: gnu
Date: 31 May 21 - 08:43 AM

Didn't read the thread... maybe later, time permitting. I have a list as long as your arm, but, the worst, for me, was when Pierre Trudeau led the charge to change the Bank Of Canada Act of 1934 to rewrite it as the Bank Of Canada Act of 1974. Canada has gone downhill ever since. When he famously brought in "a bunch of men with guns" in La Belle Province, he was my hero... that guy didn't fuck around... he didn't take no shit! But, he used a gun on Canada's financial policy... killed it... dead as a knit. Hero > vile villain. Then, our PMs got worse. Now, his son, Just-In, is worthless, and worse. Aggggggggghhhhhhh!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: gnu
Date: 31 May 21 - 08:44 AM

Is there a way I can post an image from my 'Picture' files?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Jeri
Date: 31 May 21 - 09:33 AM

Gnu, no, but you can post a link to it.

Regarding the complaining about what people chose to post, stop, please. Anybody can post here, and we can have an assortment of links.

For what it's worth, this doesn't seem to have even made the news here in the US - at least not yet, and not where I am. Posting comments and people's experiences is fine - IF we know what they're talking about. I think it's covered, now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: gnu
Date: 31 May 21 - 10:57 AM

Jeri, re "Regarding the complaining about what people chose to post, stop, please.", please refresh my memory - with what do you take offense?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 May 21 - 07:26 PM

It wasn't directed at you, gnu.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: gnu
Date: 31 May 21 - 07:48 PM

SRS, THANKS!... WHEW! I am a cranky and forgetful old man so I wasn't sure. Glad I asked Jeri.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Jun 21 - 10:02 AM

This is totally in the US media, that is how I found out about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Jun 21 - 08:04 PM

Compulsory Irish dancing as a tool of cultural genocide?...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamloops_Indian_Residential_School

I looked that up because on trying to find the school on Google Maps I noticed that most of the streets in Kamloops were named after Highland Scots. And it turned out that most of the uberkommandants were Irish priests. It was an all-Celtic atrocity for its entire existence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Jun 21 - 09:53 AM

Lawsuit over cultural genocide

Good luck to them. Not that the Canadian court has any legitimacy whatever. Like the American one it's nothing but an honour tribunal of a criminal gang.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Charmion
Date: 03 Jun 21 - 09:59 AM

Jack, when you read Canadian history you soon come to realize that the first major waves of European settlers were largely made up of refugees and displaced people.

French from the Wars of Religion, the 30 Years' War and the dynastic struggles that followed. Scots from the British version of the Wars of Religion, the Jacobite rebellions, the Highland Clearances, and the industrialization of the border region. Irish from generations of famine, poverty and imperial exploitation. "Loyalists" from the American Revolution.

And the minute they got here, they scrambled to the top of whatever hierarchy was available to them and promptly started doing unto others what had been done to them.

"I and the public know / What all schoolchildren learn: / That those to whom evil is done / Do evil in return." I think that's Auden, who had his faults but was good with a bon mot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Jun 21 - 11:51 AM

No, Gnu, it wasn't you.

Silly question: does anyone know of a place where the people who live there are the first ones to have lived there?

I suppose maybe before people started crossing the land bridge.

Personal observation/opinion: we suck as a species. Hopefully, we will learn that love and empathy are really important. We kill people and, take their land, destroy their culture, gain status and wealth, and then what?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: keberoxu
Date: 03 Jun 21 - 04:29 PM

Not in Canada, Jeri, which I don't know well anyhow.

But there are the Hopi in northeastern Arizona.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Jun 21 - 09:42 PM

Thanks Keb. I looked on Wikipedia, and it does seem like they didn't displace any other tribes. There are probably others, or they won the land from other tribes, but white people's history likely won't know. Maybe it doesn't matter.

People of all nations can do bad things. Governments are way worse than individuals. People in groups...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Allan Conn
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 11:08 AM

"industrialisation of the Borders region" Not really much industrialisation here in the Borders. There were the mill towns right enough but they are very small and rather than causing an outflow of refugees etc they would have helped keep a population here. Where there is work there is folk. Berwickshire had one of the biggest drops in population of all the Scottish counties and there is hardly any industrialisation there. I think a lot of people left here really pre-industrialisation. Most folks who went to Ulster from Scotland left from south-west Scotland but many left from the Borders too - and also the English side. From Ulster many of the folks we call Ulster Scots later crossed the Atlantic where they are called the Scotch-Irish. The plantation of Ulster started in the early 1600s but according to Tom Devine far more left in the 1690s. So pre-union and pre significant industrialisation in the Borders. The 1690s in Scotland are called "the ill years" because of a series of bad harvests and famine conditions. So folk looking for a better life earlier on in th 1600s, along with a minority who were forcibly removed because of their continuing reiving behaviour, but later on in the 1600s folk leaving often because of pretty dire conditions at home.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 12:26 PM

Navajo are thought (via linguistic evidence) to have moved south from the BC Pacific region down through the Western US to the area around the Hopi. The Choctaw have origin stories that have them moving (and carrying along huge heaps of bones of their ancestors) across the entire swath of the continent from somewhere Northwestern to the Mississippi delta area where they built mounds for those bones and assembled the bone picker stands to continue collecting bones. When you look at those stories you have a healthy mix of possible history mixed with some pretty interesting traditions.

Charmion, as we listen to the news from the Middle East these days, your poem (That those to whom evil is done / Do evil in return) describes precisely what Jews have done to Palestinians. Created ghettos and don't seem to see the parallel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: meself
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 12:56 PM

"what Jews have done" - Not entirely wrong, I suppose - but could we narrow it down at least to 'Israelis'? It's hardly fair to blame Jews world-wide for what's happening in Israel/Palestine.

**********

The language of the Dene people, in the northwest of Canada, is said to be very similar to that of the Navaho.

***************

AFAIK, the term 'Scotch-Irish' is peculiar to the south-eastern states of the US - I've certainly never heard it used in Canada to indicate those with Ulster roots, anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: keberoxu
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 01:58 PM

Meself, apropos languages and nations:

Here in the southwestern quadrant of the United States,
Navajo is actually one of those names which
an enemy/rival nation addressed to the group in question.
They call themselves "Diné", as well as their language.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Jun 21 - 08:56 AM

The Navajo [Dinee] origin myth has them coming up out of the earth exactly where they are, note.
But I don't see how anywhere's people could be the original inhabitants, any more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Charmion
Date: 06 Jun 21 - 09:54 AM

The Maori people have retained in memory the epic poem that recounts their migration from the Tahiti-Bora Bora area to the island group we Anglophones call New Zealand. Confirmed by astronomers (from the poem’s description of the stars they used to navigate), the date of their arrival has been set sometime in the mid- to late 14th century. Biologists have determined that the only flora on the islands at that time were ferns of a wide variety of types up to tree size, and fauna were likewise limited to insects, a few birds and reptiles, and a very small range of mammals. The species that were not capable of long trans-oceanic migrations were not found anywhere else, indicating that the islands had been isolated for thousands and thousands of years.

Until Captain Cook showed up, the Maori had the place to themselves. The European settlers and their descendants did their best to subjugate the Maori, but the culture and power-sharing arrangements of modern New Zealand indicate that they failed to stamp out Maori language, culture, spiritual practices, family structures or politics.

So I nominate the Maori as the group of humans that most closely meets Mrrzy’s criteria.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: mg
Date: 06 Jun 21 - 04:40 PM

here is a very good video about the residential schools situation. i think we have just seen the tip of the iceberg.https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sinclair-kamloops-residential-remains-1.6049525

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sinclair-kamloops-residential-remains-1.6049525


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Jun 21 - 10:12 AM

Aussie Aborigines, too. Good point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Charmion
Date: 07 Jun 21 - 11:08 AM

Thanks for posting that link, mg.

An important point clarified in more recent coverage is that the Kamloops burial site is not a mass grave, as the first reports stated, but a crude graveyard. This video, made for tonight's "The National" news broadcast, does a good job of explaining both the large number of graves and the anonymity of the deceased.

The video is nearly ten minutes long, and the playback may balk -- it did on my computer, which doesn't normally choke on such files. Keep going to the end, however. No, it's not fun viewing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Jun 21 - 11:46 AM

A CBC story today which I can't read on my phone appears to report they've found another mass grave of Native American children, this time in Manitoba.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Charmion
Date: 07 Jun 21 - 06:05 PM

Mass grave, Jack, or unmarked and unrecorded cemetery?

The implications are very, very different.

Mass graves in Canada are usually associated with waves of epidemic disease -- smallpox, cholera, typhus, diphtheria, typhoid. As well as lots and lots of death, major epidemics used to produce administrative collapse as overwhelmed survivors shovelled the dead underground as fast as possible before even worse things could happen. In Kingston, Ontario, where I went to uni, the remains of about 1,400 refugees from the Irish famine of the 1840s had to be moved from the shore of Lake Ontario before a new wing could be added to the Kingston General Hospital. The people buried there made it past Grosse Isle only to succumb a few weeks later and a few hundred miles upstream. Typical of such sites, the Kingston mass grave was not forgotten, but marked with a lovely great marble angel in 1894. Angel and interred remains were carefully lifted and moved together to a suburban cemetery.

But an unmarked and unrecorded cemetery, especially one as recent as the site at Kamloops, is quite another matter. It means that those who laid the bodies to rest could have done it properly and did not -- and it's hard not to think that neglect was deliberate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: meself
Date: 07 Jun 21 - 08:17 PM

You know things are bad when you switch to the American news because the Canadian news is too damn depressing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Vincent Jones
Date: 08 Jun 21 - 07:58 AM

There is statue in Vancouver of a nineteenth century Yorkshire sailor and bar owner whom they celebrate, John 'Gassy Jack' Deighton. He married a Squamish woman and when she died married her 12-year-old neice.

That there has been a statue of him for over 50 years has offended many First Nation women who regard him as an exploitative paedophile.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Charmion
Date: 08 Jun 21 - 09:58 AM

Yeah. I've seen it, Vincent.

For too long, we Canadians have celebrated our Georgian and Victorian ancestors as essentially "good" people who did mostly "good" things so we could live our lovely lives in the here and now. Lord Cornwallis founded Halifax on the best harbour on the Atlantic coast; too bad for the Mi'qmaq people, but they weren't using it to its fullest advantage. Sir John A.'s tippling habit was funny and his fear and loathing of Indigenous people was normal for his time. Egerton Ryerson brought education to the masses; who cares that he built a school system with baked-in racism and class biases?

Rather less smugness would be nice in all quarters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 02:00 PM

The same kind of discovery/repatriation is happening in the US (I don't think there's a separate thread about this? We strayed into it elsewhere, but I don't want to turn a declutter thread into a dead children thread.)

Rosebud Sioux to receive the remains of their children who died at the former Carlisle Indian School


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 08:14 PM

Please obey your local wildfire prevention code when burning down a Catholic church.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Jul 21 - 11:40 PM

Well, you got your wish, Jack. They're burning down Catholic churches in Canada. What good does that do, to make people of the current age suffer for the sins of their ancestors? And do we even know how the Native school children died? Was there malfeasance? I'm guessing that the kids lived in dormitories, as I did in a Catholic seminary in the 1960s. Epidemics spread like wildfire in dormitories. People didn't know how to deal with epidemics a century ago, and COVID-19 makes it clear that we STILL have a lot to learn about dealing with epidemics.

I'm sure there was some malfeasance, but how widespread was it? I'm also sure that there was a lot of harm done by well-intentioned people of European ancestry, who thought they were doing the right thing by imposing European culture on indigenous peoples. We need to probe all this deeply and have excruciatingly honest discussion, so we can come up with honest answers.

So, what's the answer? Certainly, not burning churches and punishing the great-grandchildren who were responsible for the wrongdoing.

-Joe-


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/04/canada-burned-churches-indigenous-catholicism


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Jul 21 - 12:22 AM

The problem with privilege is assuming that the position we inhabit today is free of the malfeasance of those who came before. My Irish and Scandinavian great grandparents arrived after the Civil War, they have no part in slavery, right? But even though "no Irish need apply" in the 1850s - 1890s, they were white and they more quickly benefited from that status than other minorities in the nation. And after a while, they blended in, weren't part of the "black Irish" that the English created. Just White Americans. But now with privilege.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: mg
Date: 05 Jul 21 - 12:54 AM

not sure what you mean about black irish. my father said that we were..or at least he was. there are many definitions of black irish, with more added daily. going back a ways i think it refers to those irish with black hair. probably some spanish genes, or maybe old turkish or african somewhere...who knows. it is an old term and newer definitions should be explained and identified as newer interpretations of an older classification. irish for a while were not white. neither were greeks, italians, mediterranean people. i think scandinavians probably mostly were. some were considered strong but dumb..no offense...one way they rose probably more quickly than the irish is that they had more skills probably. they were not as held down by a nutty church..no offense fellow catholics. they could freely marry to upper class or income people whereas irish catholics were not supposed to marry outside the faith, and upper income people at first did not tend to be irish. danish girls especially tended to marry up. some groups did not have the problems with alcohol that irish did...many complex interacting factors.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Charmion
Date: 05 Jul 21 - 10:38 AM

Joe, a great deal of the righteous indignation sweeping Canada right now extends beyond the seizure of children from their families for the purpose of extinguishing their culture and the neglect and abuse of them when they were alive. It's the failure to inform families of children's deaths, demand for payment for returning remains to their families, failure to create and retain adequate documentation of children's deaths and places of interment, and the eventual abandonment of so many burial sites.

A friend asked me if I thought it relevant that many indigenous cultures do not mark graves. I said marking and documenting graves is a thing *we* consider important, and we most signally declined to do so for these children and their families. So I guess imposing our culture on them was important until it would cause us the very slightest inconvenience and expense.

The Anglican Church of Canada and the United Church of Canada were both participants in the residential schools scheme along with the Roman Catholic Church. The Anglicans and the United Church accepted legal responsibility and made formal apologies years ago, and began paying restitution. I don't know about the Uniteds, but the Anglicans collect earmarked funds across the country and have sold extensive property to meet their obligations. Of the main-line churches, only the Roman Catholics are evading liability. It's not a good look.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: meself
Date: 08 Jul 21 - 10:01 AM

Charmion - Your explanation is far better than anything I've heard from the news media - which so far has been full of dark insinuation with very little in the way of detail or explanation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Jul 21 - 01:45 AM

Amid shameful residential-school revelations, I cannot remain a Catholic

In my six decades, I have been many kinds of Catholic: a cradle Catholic, a confirmed Catholic, a convenient Catholic, a lapsed Catholic, a renewed Catholic and a conflicted one. Now I am nothing but ashamed.

Ashamed that I have upheld an institution that dodges and weaves instead of taking responsibility. Ashamed that it has required the reported discovery of the remains of 966 children to push the church into possible action when it has had decades to do the right thing. Ashamed that Canadian Catholics can raise tens of millions of dollars for cathedrals, churches and other capital projects across the country, but can’t offer enough to keep a $25-million promise to compensate the survivors of the cruelty the church inflicted.

This is more than hypocrisy; more than moral bankruptcy. This is sin, of the most mortal kind.


The rest of this is at the link.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jul 21 - 04:00 AM

I can't say I'm all that thrilled about being a Catholic these days, either - especially an American Catholic in what is seemingly becoming the Church of Trump. I've been a lay leader in my congregations all my life, ever since I left the seminary in 1970. I keep working to right what's wrong, and wondering when I ought to give up. And I certainly don't deny that terrible wrongs were done at these schools.
It's a question of how long do I keep trying to fix the boat before I jump ship. I'm outspoken, and I'm often on the "wrong" side of authority. But I have many Catholic friends who depend on me to keep on keepin' on. A nun told me this week that I "have a talent for stirring up the pot" - and she cheered me on.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: keberoxu
Date: 10 Jul 21 - 08:02 PM

Sadly, there is a flip side to this ugly coin.

I know some American Indians, by whatever name you call them,
who speak with great bitterness
of how burial sites respectfully maintained,
by their people and for their people,
were shamefully desecrated and the land re-purposed
to suit the white European colonizers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jul 21 - 04:31 PM

When you put brucemurdoch.com into your browser - Chinese writing comes up and it says its an unsafe site.

Why would Canada do a bad thing like that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Aug 21 - 06:07 PM

A very interesting article about the deaths in schools for indigenous people in Canada. It's a bit more opinionated than what I'd expect from Scientific American, but it's nonetheless a very good article and makes a very good point:
    It’s clear, then, that the claim of residential school apologists that these children “only” died of TB is, ultimately, an attempt to whitewash what many residential school survivors and a growing number of scholars—ourselves included—have characterized as genocide, full stop. Many children did die of TB as well as epidemics of measles, influenza and other infectious diseases. But it is clear that these chronically and intentionally underfunded institutions actually caused the high death rates among students. What is also indisputable, based on the government’s own records, is that generations of federal government officials and politicians knew that the subpar conditions in the schools were killing children and chose to do nothing.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/canadas-residential-schools-were-a-horror/


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