BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?

Subject: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: heric
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 06:55 PM

I don't know if anyone can help with this one. I have a friend who has a sixteen year old evangelical anti-gay young republican shtoopin her fourteen year old daughter. He says, apparently, that in the eyes of God the two of them are already the same as married, so it's okay (and I supoose she even has a duty to submit.) I'm about to meet this kid. Does anyone have any idea where his supporting quotes are going to be coming from?? (He even hands out leaflets on anti-gay day, and tells mom she is on the highway to hell. . . . )

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: Peace
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 07:00 PM

Re anti-gay

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: Peace
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 07:02 PM

Re sex before marriage

The above might help you argue with him.

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 07:03 PM

The key here is not his Bible, but his hormones. Just ask him what his PASTOR supplies as the Scriptural foundation; that ought to clear it right on up. :~) Or I guess you could call the pastor yourself (or your friend could) and ask what they're teaching this kid over there! :~) Be sure to let us know the results.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 07:14 PM

Dunno, before you are married it's called fornication, so ask him to read Acts 15:20 and Ephesians 5:3.
Maybe it's from 1 Corinthians 7:2, but in that case tell him to look up marriage again.

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: Peace
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 07:15 PM

Tell him to keep his pecker in his pants--or at least outta hers.

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: John O'L
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 07:49 PM

She's fourteen? Tell him he's a rapist. God has nothing to do with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: heric
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 07:50 PM

Thanks, all. Good insights all around. I will read some. This is going to develop into an event, so I will report.

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: Peace
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 07:57 PM

PS

Heric: "Thy rod and thy staff they comfort me" is from Psalm 23--BUT, it's way out of context.

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: heric
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 07:59 PM

and you did a keyword search to find that, eh? lol

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: Peace
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 08:01 PM

LOL

Hey, buddy, there is nowt in the Bible that will support his 'position' that what he's doing is OK. As so many posts have shown. Keep yer cool and maybe there's a way for you to talk with the girl. The guy is only half the 'problem'.

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 09:42 AM

The girl can likewise go to the pastor, and ask for "marital" counseling (the boy should be thrilled to be invited) from the pastor.... being in submission to the pastor and all.... giving the pastor an opportunity to set the boy quite straight. :~) I'm serious. That pastor can deal with this boy in a way that can be very, very effective.

For instance, is the pastor going to be thrilled beyond belief to welcome a child of these unmarried two, before the congregation? Not! He will want to head that off in a big way.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 10:53 AM

He says they are "the same as married"? Sure! And I'm "just the same" as the new Pope! Lacking relevant societal support, of course. Lacking understanding of what that position is all about, of course. But those little things aside, I'm "just the same".

Of course a sixteen year old and a fourteen year old have no idea yet even who they are, and are unable to conceptualize a real permanent union of the two, but just try to convince him of that! When you're having that kind of fun, at that age, your hormones can convince you of anything!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: Amos
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 11:13 AM

This is the kind of bullshit that has been going down since the Simian Era -- when folks get it in their mind they want nookie, all bets are off and any rationalization, justification, fabrication or PR gimmick that can serve will be pressed into service no matter how ridiculous. The guy is just screwing. And he is invoking the testament as glibly as any two-bit tent preacher trying to make it happen. He is so immersed in his justofocations he can't see straight, and she is buying a package of profoundly, criminally false advertising.

For a fourteen year-old girl to be subjected to this kind of horsepucky is criminal. She is well below the age of consent and under the law he can be prosecuted for violating the moral standards of the community. In fact, it might do him a world of good to be advised that prosecution is being contemplated. He's committing a crime, legally, and morally -- not just because of the sex but because of the perversion of religious argument as a means of overwhelming another being for his own sexual purposes. He is leaving scars and doesn't even know it because he is thinking with his wee scrotum.

Hanging? Boiling in oil?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 01:21 PM

You can find support for almost anything in the Bible. That doesn't make it right in our society.

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 01:37 PM

This is so preposterous, it doesn't bear thinking. The little eejit is committing a felony and a sin. And to top it, he is abusing religion and mocking it. No defense, no excuse. He desrves a very hard kicking in the nadgers.

My concern would be for the girl. As has been pointed out already, she has interest in him, she has been "snared", and needs to be let down gently and carefully to avoid overreaction or even embarassment.

Recruit to your cause those she trusts most - pastor, if she is a believer, her friends, favourite teacher, whatever works.

And you may be well advised to set up some injunction afterwards, against him seeing her or coming near your home. We have seen some very ugly attempts at revenge in the news over the years.

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 01:39 PM

You need to understand whether the girl is in a position to make a proper decision before you judge on moral grounds. Then you need to support her - on moral grounds.

If you want to play manipulative games, then, yes, a trip to the shaman of his cult might be both witty and of assistance in your objective.

Legally, the guy is dead both in the UK and US!

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 01:48 PM

By the way, that Dershowitz link is to a text rather different from the King James, at least in some respects.

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 02:28 PM

I sure hope someone sees fit to press statutory-rape charges against this up-and-coming [pun intended] hypocrite.

Unless he acquires the criminal record he so richly deserves, he might well ascend to high political office as the next great neoconservative hope. He certainly seems to have the "right stuff" to claw his way to the top of that bunch of creeps.

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 03:24 PM

Better research statute for your area before you assume he can be charged.

General Definition of Statutory Rape

Generally, when someone of or over the age of consent has sex with someone below the age of consent, it is considered statutory rape.... The age of consent, however, varies from location to location. So, for example, in Austria, as long as the girl is at least 14 years old, you're OK. But in Wisconsin, she would have to be at least 18....

To find out the age of consent where you are, check AgeOfConsent.com, which claims to keep the most up-to-date information on ages of consent around the world.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 03:28 PM

Frig the King James stuff. Didn't he have some issues of his own?

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: GUEST,WYS
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 03:31 PM

For instance in my area (Pennsylvania USA), ... when that person engages in sexual intercourse with a complainant under the age of 16 years and that person is four or more years older than the complainant and the complainant and the person are not married to each other.

Source: http://www.ageofconsent.com/pennsylvania.htm

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 03:31 PM

"Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?"

Possibly. If the book is used to support the leg of a bed.

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: GUEST,WYS
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 03:36 PM

There is also the issue of a female's right, in the context of choice and women's lib, t any age she considers herself rady, to engage in sexual activity-- at any age she considers herself ready. This is one reason the "rapist" must be considerably older than the "victim".... because girls get horny too, and one cannot always assume compulsion or pressure from the boy. So it might even be that this young lady has provided your friend a less than completely accurate description of the reasons for her behavior. Do I think this is the case, or that if it is the case, this is a good thing? No! But we don't have all the facts, do we.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: GUEST,WYS
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 03:37 PM

LOL-- typo-- "age she considers herself rady" READY (not randy!)!

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 04:44 PM

Fail to see how that link means you can find justification for anything in the Bible.

And yes, King James was screwed up, but he wasn't the translator. Most other English versions seem to be derived from in rather than re-translations.

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 05:14 PM

The Bible SAYS Lot offered his daughters to appease a mob. It later says two of his daughters were pregnant by him. This is in almost all the standard translations. As I said, it doesn't make it a good idea, it just means that awkward stories can be found in the Bible in the versions that many people read! I condemn rape and underage sex, just as most of you do, but it all WAS treaded differently in a major religious text. This explains how some people GET weird ideas. I'm not trying to justify them.

Some of you don't want to even admit these passages even exist or say what they say.

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: Burke
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 05:27 PM

I think this young man (and perhaps the young woman) may have taken some things heard at church that were intended to discourage pre-maritial sex, heard half the message & twisted it to suit him. I seem to recall being told something like, "Having sex binds you together like husband & wife. Save it for marriage. You're not ready (too young) for marriage. Don't have sex." He/they only heard the first sentence & ignored the rest.

Probably using as supporting passage Genesis 2:
24: Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh.

This passage is quoted by both Jesus when speaking of divorce & by Paul in couple of places for example

I Corinthians 6:
15: Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I therefore take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never!
16: Do you not know that he who joins himself to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, "The two shall become one flesh."
17: But he who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.

The thinking here is, now that we've become "one flesh" we must be married.

There's also the marriage by rape, or how do get Dad you let you marry him when Dad said no passage in Deuteronomy 22:
28: "If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found,
29: then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her; he may not put her away all his days."

Here are some bible links: RSV & KJV or Bible Gateway

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 05:49 PM

But it doesn't JUSTIFY them! There's a big difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: Burke
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 05:53 PM

I'm not trying to suggest it does. The initial question is where does this thinking come from? I'm suggesting a way to account for it.

I should think that was pretty clear by the way I introduced it.

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: GUEST,harpgirl
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 06:02 PM

good call, Susan. That should take care of that.

my advice:
She needs to lose that little weasel. (Hey, it's free advice!)

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 06:11 PM

Actualy Brucie I was reffering to the guest's posts, unless that was you.

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: GUEST,Bill D
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 06:14 PM

the 'guest' said it was not trying to justify them.

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: Burke
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 06:19 PM

And I'm Burke, not Bruce. If posts aren't in order, more specific references in comments help a lot. My response would be the same, though. I don't see Guest justifying Lot's actions either.

There are, indeed, some stories in the Bible that are told narratively with little by way of moral comment that are very disturbing. I think Guest's point is that we all know we don't just find a story and the "go and do likewise."

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: Burke
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 06:31 PM

My last post reminded me. Sometimes this is told as a joke & sometimes as how not to find God's will.

A person thought that to find out what God wants, all you have to do is to close your eyes and open the Bible blindly, put your finger down on a passage and read it as a message from God.

You open the Bible at the scripture: "My sheep hear my voice."
You open the Bible again: "Judas went out and hanged himself."
You open the Bible again: "Go and do thou likewise."
You open the Bible again: "Whatsoever thou doest, do quickly."

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 07:16 PM

Apologies, Burke, a slip-up. Anyway this is what I was replying to:
" GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 01:21 PM

You can find support for almost anything in the Bible. That doesn't make it right in our society."

I couldn't understand how you could use the story of lot's daughters to support or justify such actions. Is it because it's in the book? if so, that's a very superficial reading of it. I did not say the guest was justifying anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: GUEST,khandu
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 07:47 PM

I object that the brown-shirt management of this site allows, unmolested, this implicit but unmistakable bashing of the transgenderedly challenged. They are NOT all marimba players as you well know and I will not stand idly by while . . . I QUIT

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: heric
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 09:14 PM

Sorry, I have been gone all day. I'm sure no one justifies this kid's behavior - but I was wondering what to do when he started opening his mouth. Lots of good insights here, and yes, getting her out of it as cleanly and safely as possible needs to be paramount. That does mean re-thinking the idea of when or how to approach the pastor.

The kids are separated by a family vacation for the next week. Everyone has time to think carefully. It's amazing, as calm as I like to think of myself, how this starts to make my blood boil at times. This kid criticizes the parent's morals openly. I think of him as a bully - bullying both the young girl and her mother. Amazing.

And, yes, no doubt there are many missing facts and probably always will be.

Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 09:38 PM

(I still think the pastor's involvement could and probably would be invaluable - I mean only that the approach requires careful planning.)

The age of consent in California is 18 for males and females. I'm not sure yet how it plays out with both of them as minors, but I believe Amos. It must be a legal violation. (One web site says that with two year's age difference it is a misdemeanor; three years difference would be a felony. - It's possible that she's almost 15 and he's barely 16 - I don't know, or even how the age difference is exaclty quantified.)

As for missing facts, here's a firinstance that I left out: The boy's dad supposedly died of AIDS when the boy was young. That might mess with a youngster's head.

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: Once Famous
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 09:44 PM

Everyone here forgets what it was like when they were teens.

I am so glad that I haven't.

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 09:50 PM

And let me say once again, but clearly, that I appreciate all of the foregoing insights and scripture references immensely. They have been and will be very helpful in the 3-D world. I'm sorry this is not lighthearted fare.

Dan

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 09:52 PM

Oh, boy, do I remember those raging hormones! Walking down the school halls carefully holding my notebook in front of me!

Yes, Martin, I remember. That's what makes this so disturbing!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 10:21 PM

lol. I was ever-so-briefly tempted to look at it that way, too, Martin. But you were a nice little Jewish boy with good manners. This kid is like a little nazi. Or a little Jim Bakker.

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: GUEST,WYS
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 10:35 PM

Dan, I think it's in good hands with you helping to deal with it. It makes sense that you might not want to involve "their" pastor. But it might be helpful for you to consult and possibly involve a pastor they would have some agreement with, even in the narrow doctrinal positions you outline.... with kids that age you want any buy-in you can get from them, at least at the start of trying to help them see things in a fresh light.

You might also want to visit a Christian bookstore and ask the staff to suggest some reading material, both for yourself & mom, and for the girl and probably the boy-- again, from within the doctrinal comfort zone of the boy. There is a lot out there on chastity and waiting until marriage.

The material Burke provided above is very accurate and very serious. From the Christian view, it is as much a spiritual wrong he has done her as any other kind. A book and resources (maybe other kids in the same boat) about "second virginity" might be in order as an option, especially if either or both of them begin to get a sense of what they have done to themselves and one another.

I think it's highly unlikely you will get a chance to make any headway with the boy on the gay issues. I take your description about that not as a sign of how he feels about that per se, but as a sign of how Evangelical is his bent-- a sign of hope in this case more than a concern, IMO, since the Ev's are pretty committed to the rightness of saying NO till marriage, and teaching kids that.

Also, what about the boy's family? Does the girl's mom know his family at all?


In any case, it is not required that parents have the permission of their children to enforce closer supervision. This girl may be very relieved to have that expression of adult caring and structure. Dr. Phil actually has a great approach about this issue-- which is, mom can say, "I do not even need to know the details. I know enough about what is happeneing that we just aren't going to go there. Instead, here's how things are going to be: xxxxxxxxxxxxxx." And then she would lay out what the ground rules are going to be to keep this young lady safe.

Somewhere on the hard drive I have a one-pager about how one can tell a person is actually and sincerely repentant. It's about an increased sense of personal accountability-- not guilt. Please PM me if you want a copy of this.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 10:59 PM

Mom has not yet broached things with the boy's family (or anyone else - except the boy.) I'm glad the one week cooling off period is here.

The girl's dad flaked off about two years ago - another stressor. The girl's family doesn't go to any church. You are probably right about rule setting. I suspect the girl has been showered with gifts and extra leeway in a perhaps misguided attempt to compensate for the divorce.

(The girl, by the way, is stunningly beautiful, gets straight A's, and looks much older than she is.)

Even Ann Landers says (said) that once kids start there is no going back. Be that as it may, I think the only good result for her is to move forward and away from the young charlatan. Straightening him out would be a good deed indeed but probably well beyond our capabilities. That's where involving his pastor, judiciously, will probably remain part of the program.

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 06:20 AM

Premarital sex is wrong... Ok, tell me, who married Adam and Eve?

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: GUEST,J
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 07:35 AM

I agree with what others have said about forgetting what it's like to be teenage & experimenting for the first time. Not saying this applies to this particular situation at all btw, but in general...

first time I had sex (I'm a girl) I was 15, he was 19, we'd only just met & never saw each other again. Did it mess me up for the rest of my life? No. Was I coerced? No. Did I regret it? No, & still don't. I wanted to as much as he did, and I felt it took a lot of pressure off from my own curiosity. Yes if I'd got pregnant or caught a disease it would have been a different story but with the wonders of modern contraception it's possible to minimise the risks. Did my parents know about it? No, not at the time, but did later, it wasn't a problem. I was always quite mature for my age mentally and felt absolutely ready at 15, I guess a lot of people might not be but it's personal. So yes I was statutorially raped but I certainly don't feel abused or damaged in any way.

All I'm trying to say I guess is, very difficult to judge from the outside and while I have absolute sympathy with this particular situation and can see why the family & friends might think this is a terrible thing (& maybe it is), saying 'she's 14 therefore no argument, this is rape' may be legally true but doesn't really help.
Key thing I would have said is, does the girl want this, are they taking sensible precautions re: disease and pregnancy, is she a 'grown up' kind of 14 year old, does she know that she has support from her family NO MATTER WHAT and that if she's under any pressure to do things she doesn't want to do that she has close people around to back her up & take her side. Does she realise the implications of having a full sexual relationship emotionally, as well as the risks she's taking, however careful she's being, given that contraception can never be 100% reliable. If yes to absolutely all of the above and she seems otherwise stable and happy, then even though she is only 14 then when it comes down to it she is in control of her own body at the end of the day.

Reading the info from heric that's probably not the case, but even so, do need to bear all the above in mind when trying to tackle any of it. If she's anything like I was at that age, being told she's shouldn't do something 'for her own good' will only make her want to do it more...

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 07:53 AM

Heric, it is true that maturity gained from experiencing stuff (not just sexual) can't be turned back, and thus she will be better served by having this respected to a degree by parental beings. Growing up only moves in one direction (till senility, LOL). It's important she have some support, though, in gaining the emotional maturity that should have developed in paralle to the sexual maturity, but which probably has not fully developed because if she was pressured or misled, that development has not been reality based. This would be something her mom or you can discuss with her openly and frankly-- along the lines of "Yes I know you are a gorwn woman now in one respect, but the complete womanhood in store for you is far, far more marvelous than you can compehend right now. I can see it, but for now you can probably only see things as they feel they are, now. We want to help you grow into the fullness of your womanhood, and that means xxxxx ......"

But sexual activity is a matter the girl can exercise choice about. If she comes to a place where she decides that chastity is a better choice for now, she will need support. Why does she choose it, when it is difficult to maintain that choice, how does one maintain it, what is the point at which she needs to change the situation to maintain that choice.... that reading material on chastity/second virginity can be a powerful help to her.

But I would urge, no matter the course you take, I would urge that do not encourage her into either the victim role, the "your life is ruined" role, or the "bad girl/damaged goods" role. She may claim each of these for herself in turn, and it's OK for her to feel those feelings, tell them, process them, and grow beyond them. But kids that age have a way of internalizing the expectations they perceive are on them, and no matter what you SAY, what she will internalize will be the ACTION and tone of voice wrapped around the words.

If the adults cast any paradigm other than "you are a wonderful and powerful person who is dearly loved and lovable, with limitless possibilities to choose from, so let's start choosing," you will leave a trace on this event you do not want to leave.

The "all men are sex maniac, esp. at this age" talk is not helpful either. Girls either tune this out or use it as the basis for a lifelong tendency to see all men as bad. Our society has enough in it already that says men are the enemy.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: GUEST,WYS
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 09:05 AM

And now that the girl is sexually active, it's time to start those wonderful internal exams (I know we all love those)-- not too soon after YOUR talk with her, but not to be put off too long either.

Our local family practice has a nurse that specializes in walking girls through their first pelvic exam and blood tests, and she also dispenses info about STDs, and so forth. It can be very helpful to have this older mentor-woman, who is not "Oh MOM (you geek)!" or some other involved adult with whom the girl has baggage. Mom should definitely pick out the place and practitioner, tho, and offer to go with the girl if she can do it supportively but not in "poor you" or "it was awful for me the first time" mode. I believe this appt can also be the occasion for demonstrating how a condom is put on (mom should inquire in advance), and girls need to know this, cuz if they are some guys' first time, he may not know how to do it effectively (put on the condom, I mean, LOL).

We told our kids-- a blended family so we were parents as well as step-parents-- that the box of condoms would be kept sticoked on the shared bathroom, and that there would be no discussion if and when we saw the stock depleting. (Three kids all in puberty at the same time, oh my GOD.) We encouraged them to wait, and at school they had examples all around them of kids who had not. "I'm going to need a note to get out of afternoon class so I can go with my friend to get married-- her baby's due any day." But we also armed them with info and resources.

And once a girl is sexually active, it's time to consider The Pill. There is even a patch, as well as an under-skin implant (or maybe it's an injection) that lasts for quite a long time.... sometimes girls in foster care are made to have this done. Those issues are fraught with various viewpoints and risks, but the time to start thinking about them comes now-- not attached to YOUR talk, as I said, but soon.

And again, on sexualization of young people-- I understand that in some less-repressive cultures, in environments where young adults have had the freedom to do what they please, along with rational information, what they often tend to do is experiment with their age-mates. Once the novelty wears off they find it all rather empty if devoid of commitment, and stop on their own unill their ability to form longterm attachments matures.

Also, close friends of mine in high school came to the conclusion all on their own that their intense love might not be the same as a longterm commitment. The sex they'd been having was more than they could handle well, and they decided in light of their longterm goals that they needed to cool it-- for themselves and for one another's sake. They decided that being alone with each other so much was the risk, so they changed that pattern.

So if no one panics this girl, she may recall this as a blip on the radar in the context of her own lifetime.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: Alice
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 09:07 AM

This case needs to be reported to the legal system (if you are in teh US, child protective services) NOW so that he is arrested and she is protected.

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: GUEST,brucie
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 12:41 PM

Hi, Allan.

No, that wasn't me. I use my name when I post. No offense taken.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 04:36 PM

From the limited information above, it sounds as if the girl is probably in a position to take an informed choice, no matter what the straitlaced may say, and outrage and horror are therefore likely to prove counterproductive and may cause long-term emotional damage, and wreck the girl's sex life for decades.

Hence the cautious terms of my first post above.

WYS - some sensible advice there, glad to see no moralising - it does not help.

Gobson, the reason you remember your youth is you never grew up.

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 05:13 PM

More Scripture options.

"Say, son, what are you doing yoking yourself with an unbeliever?"
2Co 6:14... Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

"Married, huh, that's interesting! Well, what are your plans for caring for your wife as Scripture directs? And, uh, would YOU like to be treated as you've been treating this girl? And, um, would you like Christ's Church [Jesus's Bride] to be treated like you've been treating YOUR "bride"?" 1Co 7:3: Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence... and Eph5:25-28: Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it [self-sacrifice ALL for them]; That He [not YOU] might sanctify and cleanse it [her] with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it [her] to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy [sacred, pure] and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

"Now, about that chastity thing....."
Le19:20: And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her [i.e. of age/living independently]; she shall be scourged...."

Definition CHASTITY, "Hognos" (Greek): exciting reverence, venerable, sacred, pure; pure from carnality; chaste, modest, pure from every fault; immaculate, clean.


"You seem to be really into rebuking sinners. Is that the highest calling God give us?"
Le 19:17: Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. and 1Ch 12:17: And David went out to meet them, and answered and said unto them, If ye be come peaceably unto me to help me, mine heart shall be knit unto you: but if ye be come to betray me to mine enemies, seeing there is no wrong in mine hands, the God of our fathers look thereon, and rebuke it. and Mt 5:44-46: But I say unto you, Love your enemies... For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye ? do not even the publicans [sinners] the same? and the BIG ONE, 1Co 13:1: Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity [love], I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. (Definition of love, as used in this passage: agape love, sacrificing love; brotherly love, affection, good will, love, benevolence)

"You know, this woman you've been ranting at is actually under God's direct protection. Yup, just as if she were God's wife. Did you know God promises to be husband to the widow, and that being deserted by a husband is reckoned the same as widowhood?"
Isa 54:5: For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. and Mt 19:19: ... and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

"So.... what does Scripture say about how you should treat someone older than yourself?"
1Tim 5:17: Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. (Definition of "elder" as used in this passage: elder, of age, the elder of two people; or advanced in life, an elder, a senior) and 1Pe 5:5: Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

:~)

Have a nice day!

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 01:37 AM

I don't know heric, its kinda hard to know how to handle it.

As far as the girl is concerned, you're right, there is probably no turning back. If its not him, it will probably be someone else. The best thing is to emphasize safe sex and birth control. At this point, there is probably no convincing her that the relationship is wrong and that the guy is 'messed up'. She'll probably have to figure that out on her own.

That doesn't mean that her mother has to sanction the relationship. Her mother just has to make him unwelcome in her home. Based on his criticism of mom, this would not be hard to do. The daughter will eventually figure it out that mom is really more important and that its not worth the disapproval she gets at home. At that age if you try to lay down the law, it drives them closer together. I might be tempted to say, "Fine, let him support you if you think he has all the answers." (No, I take that back!)

If you want to prove him wrong, you can try to take her to visit a minister who will straighten her out regarding what the bible says. At least then she will understand that she is being lied to but if she doesn't already belong to a church, that probably won't work. She wants to believe her boyfriend! He says he loves her and she wants to believe everything he tells her.

As far as the law is concerned, I don't think there is enough of an age difference to make anything stick. If we were to prosecute every underage kid having sex, the courts would crumble. Its impossible. Not a chance. You should know that. Teen-age sex isn't really a crime is it?

Emphasize her freedom to make choices that will effect the rest of her life then let it go. If mom has imparted her values to her daughter at an early age, the daughter will eventually turn around. If not, well, thats the price you pay. If she cares enough about herself to excel at school, there is still hope. At least she has some brains. With a kid like that, you can only reason with her. Emphasize her future and the fact that he's a loser and she's a winner. She deserves better. Then let it go.

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: Burke
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 10:52 AM

It would be interesting to know if this is this young man's first 'marriage' or if he is already a divorcee or polygamist.

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: heric
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 10:42 PM

Well, I promised to report in with the result. It's a surprise ending, if a bit anti-climactic after all your good advice and all my studying.

Girl's mom contacted the boy's family, who, it turns out, are churchgoing Catholics. (He rejects Catholicism.) After listening politely to the details, and then to the voice mails boy left for mom (did I mention the voice mails? - they were peppered with the "F" word mixed in with his "religious" ramblings), the boy's family wholeheartedly agreed that he was on a wayward path. The numerous corrective actions they intend include keeping him away from the girl (he's in high school; she's in middle school.)

Girl is still in love, but not embarrassed by the affair, and will move on. Boy's family will have to be in charge of his development, but they sounded concerned ands well-intentioned.

So it seems it will all work out.

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: GUEST,WYS
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 10:49 PM

Whew!

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: SINSULL
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 02:50 PM

Before completely breathing a sigh of relief, I will reiterate previous advice. Get her to a doctor, make sure she is healthy and not pregnant and get her some birth control.

And if Junior re-surfaces, call the police. His parents may not be able to keep them separate if they are "in love".

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: SINSULL
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 03:05 PM

Before completely breathing a sigh of relief, I will reiterate previous advice. Get her to a doctor, make sure she is healthy and not pregnant and get her some birth control.

And if Junior re-surfaces, call the police. His parents may not be able to keep them separate if they are "in love".

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: heric
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 03:56 PM

Thanks, Sinsull. Yes, both of your items imediately above are on the mother's agenda. The repsective parents discussed the subject of a potential restraining order and hopefully (probably) the kids' escapade will not result in any legal or other public fallout.

(By the way, though not germane: The high school in question is getting a lot of press these days for its anti-gay day and resulting legal actions (by both sides).)

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: dianavan
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 10:39 PM

An anti-gay day? Isn't that called discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation? ...or don't they have that law in Calif.? Was it sanctioned by the school?

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: heric
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 11:45 PM

It's free speech versus harassment/discrimination. You can criticize without it being hate speech. (And of course I made up that name. It's something like "Truth Day.")

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical Quotes Support 'Premarital Sex?
From: heric
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 11:49 PM

No, the school doesn't sponsor anything. The question is how much must they allow and how much must they forbid. Which is why everybody gets to sue.