Drum solos: Why?

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 05:38 PM

Thanks for the link, GUEST. It's interesting to read the background, i.e., the comments from a veteran musician who sympathized with Buddy Rich and felt the younger guys in the band deserved all the criticism he dealt out to them.

Reading the transcriptions (as opposed to listening to his tone of voice, etc.) tends to make Rich seem less of a villian, too.

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 03:52 PM

I think these audio files have been around on the Internet for some time Bitch Buddy bitch

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 01:27 PM

Christy Moore singing the well below the valley - gotta be some sort of perfection attained with that, and just a drum and a voice - and then he does a drum solo - he's got a little swan neck mike into the drum....

drum solos...that's why!

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: kendall
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 01:17 PM

MOST wont

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 12:19 PM

Horses for courses - some pieces will work with a drum solo and others won't.

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: kendall
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 12:02 PM

I'm trying to imagine one of those frantic spastic slamming and banging breaks in the middle of Lord Franklin.

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 11:56 AM

Yeah Poppa Gator, I know the story and have a few others if you like. A friend of mine was his lead trumpet player for about 6 months and only John's personality type would have tolerated a third of what he put up with. BTW, that was John's last stop before Kenton where he stayed for several years. His entire life and his main goal in it was to be the lead player with Kenton and his entire style was developed around that particular sound (great range with power and a full sound). He's on quite a few recordings....John Harner. I think everything else in his life was a letdown after achieving his life's goal at age 23.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: GUEST,Bainbo
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 11:47 AM

Wow! when I started this thread, I never realised it would become so interesting and informative.

I suppose there's no harm in me naming the group that started me thinking. As M.Ted said, they;ve been at the top so long that my opinion's certainly not going to harm them. It was Booker T and the MGs. As smooth, professional and gracious now as they ever were, and it was a great night.

Several people mentioned that solos gave the drummer a chance to share the spotlight. I suppose there may have been an element of that, as their original drummer, Al Jackson, is sadly no longer with us, so stepping in to work with Booker T, Duck Dunn and Steve Cropper, who have worked together for so long, must be a bit daunting.

And maybe other posters are right, too, and I just have no appreciation of rhythm. I did use to be a morris dancer, after all!

Thanks very much,
a wiser and better informed Bainbo

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 11:42 AM

Buddy Rich was an outstanding musician and showman (and, incidentally, drummer-wannabe Johnny Carson's idol), but he was also widely known among musicians as a miserable human being, a truly mean-spirited sumbitch, and the worst employer in the entire music business.

There is an amazing "bootleg" tape of him berating and obscenely belittling his band members after a gig. Apparently one of the guys in the band had a portable tape recorder running during a "team meeting" on the tour bus after a gig. It circulated fairly widely among jazz and rock players back in the 70s; I have to wonder whether there's a sound file of his tirade somewhere out on the internet, waiting to be rediscovered.

By the way, this is not meant to denigrate drummers in general, just the individual drummer/bandleader Buddy Rich. In fact, the person who first brought this to my attention, my brother, is himself a drummer (and an excellent professional musician at that).

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 10:52 AM

Fuck you Amos! I just read this entire thread and all alonng I've had two thoughts and that was one of them! Morello was great. The entire group was great. And why?

They had texture. Paul Desmond used to say he was the world's slowest and quietest alto player....LOL.....But it was true. Listen to Desmond and you realize that you might be assuming notes that aren't there.....or are they? Very much the same with Morello. The crescendos and decrescendos are fantastic and you find yourself wondering if you are actually hearing or are you assuming? Additionally it took a great drummer to deal with the time signatures in most of Brubeck's stuff.

Brubeck himself had great touch. It's one thing to control decibel level in a wind instrument but touch on a piano is all too rare. (BTW, I heard Pam Swan play on a CD and trust me, she has great touch!) I always felt with Dave Brubeck Quartet that you were never attacked by the music or washed over by it, but rather it slowly enveloped you and drew you out instead of forcing itself in.

Gotta' go.....The other comment was about the kick of watching good drummers......Buddy Rich had a FANTASTIC big band and it was always fun to watch Buddy. There were better all around drummers but Buddy was a kick and when it came to big band drummers, he was right up there. The music never suffered for his ego as he knew the music well......but man the guy was a show!!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: Amos
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 10:11 AM

Folksongs, by their root nature, only need a single larynx.

But as to why anyone should want to listen to adrum solo, the very question boggles my mind and belies, to me, a beat-deaf ear.

Anyone who ever listened to the long drum solo in the middle of "Take Five" performed by Joe Morello, or a latter-day version of the same number with Danny Brubeck at the drums, can not help but be amazed by what one man with two sticks can do to your sense of time and space. You're just listening on the wrong frequency, is all.


A

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: GUEST,Doo Veck
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 10:00 AM

GUEST 8 Apr 05 - 08:54 AM says
'I can't think of one folk song that requires a drum'

'The Female - - - - er' needs a 'drum' in it don't ya think?
Or Walter Pardon would've had to introduce it as 'The Female Er'

Guest Doo Veck? Get outa here!

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 09:50 AM

One of the most moving renditions of "The Trimdon Grange Explosion" that I've ever heard was accompanied by just a bass drum playrd as if for a slow march:

Let's not think about to-mor-row lest we dis-a-ppointed be
^         ^          ^      ^          ^    ^         ^ ^^

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 09:39 AM

A lot of work chants were accompanied by drums of one kind or another, and, of course military marching, with all of its marching rhymes, would be impossible without drums(maybe that's why so many folkies don't like drums)--

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 09:34 AM

'Over the hills and far away'... "Here's 40 shillings on the drum". That one needs a drum.

'Captain Ward and the Rainbow'... "Come all you valiant seamen bold, with courage beat your drum'.

There's two for you..

LTS

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 09:33 AM

You are not thinking hard enough GUEST, 28 Apr 05 - 08:54 AM.

A lot of mediaeval songs are meant to be accompanied by a single drum: "Tapster, Drinker" is but one of them, and one of the better known.

Also, "Sir Richard's Song" is much enhanced by a simple, slow, drum beat; it heightenes the sense of drama and is most fitting to the lyrics and mood of the song.

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: GUEST,jacqui.c
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 09:09 AM

My first real introduction to drums was listening to Sandy Nelson doing 'Let There Be Drums' in the early sixties. That just about did it for me and I've been a sucker for drums ever since. then there was Cosy Powell who just blew me away. A good drum slo can be a thing of real beauty and I would agree that the drummer does hold a band together, that beat just keeps things on the right track.

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 08:54 AM

I can't think of one folk song that requires a drum.

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: JeZeBeL
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 02:41 PM

I do not understand why people think that drumming should not be needed in music. Ok, in some things yes I can agree, I personally don't tend to play waltzes, airs etc....because it is a part of folk music that does not need it. Drummers need to learn when they should and shouldn't play, and that's coming from me, a bodhran player.

Put it this way, if drummer's weren't in bands, there are a hell of a lot of bands out there that would fall apart if they did not have a beat in some shape or form. A drum is an integral part of any band, I'd even go as far as saying it is probably the backbone in a lot of ways.
You also have bass guitar moving on to other genres of music (and staying in folk music aswell in my session in the maltings in york), who provide a steady beat/rhythm etc in a band.

Drummer's have a place in music everywhere, even classical (timpanies). We have a damn important job to do and if we want to have a little bit of recognition for it, then let us have our glory once in a while. We deserve it at the end of the day.

My only objection to this is if the drummer happen's to be crap and making the band fall apart, well, then you just want to get them off the stage and shove them down the closest manhole and not even think of letting them near a solo, and confiscate their instrument. :0)

lol

Jez xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: GUEST,Mr Red (with his two red bodhrans)
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 10:56 AM

And it is the one time he has to support less musicians than the drum seat.

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: Padre
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 08:52 AM

Why drum solos? 'Cause the drummer is the only guy in the band who has pointed sticks.

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 08:03 AM

I've been to plenty of heavy metal concerts which included drum solos. There's always a huge cheer at the end, which the drummer often mistakes for approval. But in fact it's an outpouring of relief, and gratitude that it's time for another song

It's not simply drummers, whenever an instrumentalist takes the spotlight to show their individual chops, it's pure wankery

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 07:06 AM

They're useful when the git lead guitarist has overloaded the electric system and blows the fuses in the middle of a gig.   They can carry on regardless until the caretaker has run home, found the fusewire, run back, run home again for a Philips (+) screwdriver and back, fixed the fuses and sworn at the lead guitarist for 5 minutes solid.

I was at that gig... the band was 'Blue Stratos', the caretaker Mr Phillips, the place, Charminster Village hall, circa 1976 and the drummer was Terry Bernard. His big brother Barry was in the group Jigsaw which had a No.5 hit in 1975. Oddly enough, it was on the radio yesterday.

LTS

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 03:25 AM

Why? Drummers usually own the van, they need it for their kit, they let the rest of the band share only it if they can do a solo!

RtS

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: M.Ted
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 12:03 AM

That clarinet player sounded awful familiar, and when I looked at the credits, I was surprised to find that it was my old friend George Chittendon, who I played Balkan music with years ago in the Westwind Ensemble- and the defi was Dan Auvil who I knew from the same time--they both played at my wedding!

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 05:31 PM

"Stomp" creators were from the UK, I think. One was a busker. The link provides more info.

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 05:04 PM

Go to this site and listen to the last track, "Valle Korcare", and marvel at how the defi is used instead of a bass instrument.

The defi (or frame-drum) is used in Greek trad music also, quite a lot in fact; but the Albanian players are the true masters.

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: M.Ted
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 02:53 PM

Albanian drumming, eh, El Greko? It's true. And you can't play a decent Berance without a drummer-

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 02:48 PM

I once saw this Shakepeare play - Ithink it was King John at The Other Place Stratford and all the music was just one drum kit. Worked pretty well.

drums are beautiful - nothing nicer than seeing a slingerland kit all crisp and gleaming and glittering. And the drummer comes and thwacks out a few licks and you think....wow that guys knows one end of a stick from the other.

strangely enough I was thinking how a group can sometimes be defined by its bacline musicians. Mike Hugg with Manfred mann is an obvious case , John Steele with the Animals - even with chas, Eric, alan/Dave missing - the sound was unmistakeable with just Hilt and John. haven't seen them now that Hilt has gone. they are doing the Fishponds Matlock in September - I am looking forward to it.

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 02:29 PM

And crumpled-up newspaper, and pieces of tubing, and rubber tires...
I saw them 2 years ago In High Wycombe, UK - brilliant!

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 01:49 PM

"Stomp" was a successful Broadway show which eventually went on tour. I'm sure it's been seen in all major US cities, and suspect it would probably have made to London and other international tour destinations as well.

Unlike the standard "musical comedy," it was not play or operetta, but consisted strictly of music and dance (not unlike, say, "Riverdance"), except that all the music was percussion ~ no "melodic" (note-playing) instruments at all. I believe that trash cans and lids, etc., were prominently featured, played onstage by the dancer/performers.

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: kendall
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 01:48 PM

I learned plenty about percussion years ago. I learned what I like and what I don't like.
Timpany yes

Bodrhan yes (In competent hands)

bass drum yes
snare drums and cymbals, no. period.

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 01:19 PM

You ain't seen nothing 'till you've see an Albanian "defi" player draw a whole octave out of a piece of skin barely 1 foot in diameter. It would make bodhran players green with jealousy.

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 01:09 PM

"...that I don't understand"

Sums it all up right there if ya ask me... Learn a little something about percussion... it'll increase your appreciation

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: Tam the man
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 01:01 PM

What was stomp I don't remember it. I've never heard of Stomp, it sounds like an illness, going to the doctor and saying I've got a dose of Stomp.

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: CharleyR
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 11:48 AM

Has anyone seen John Joe Kelly from Flook do the bodhran solo bit of their set? Even as a non-drummer I find his playing pretty impressive.

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: s6k
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 10:04 AM

i went to see Rush not so long back, and one of the pieces they did in the 2nd half was just Neil Peart doing a drum solo. it was bloody fantastic, although he is arguably the best drummer in the world. the same thing happened when i saw Yes, with Alan White. He had a lot more drums though. he had one normal kit and also one with about 20 drums on it. he was also amazing.
its a shame i will never see john bonham live, i have only the dvds to watch of him.

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 08:58 AM

Almost every adolescent male wants to be a drummer. Having been one and reared two more I can attest that they beat on anything within reach. Drum solos (in rock, at least) are meant to appeal primarilly to that audience segment. Why any band whose music isn't aimed at the 16-21 age group would want to include extended drum solos is a mystery. A short break is one thing, but a five-minute solo is another.

Having said that, there is a world of difference between solos played on drum kits and drum jams played on a variety of percussion instruments. Drum kit solos are limited to a handful of textures while drum jams can incorporate more interesting-sounding instruments. Plus, since there are more players in drum jams, the rhythms themselves can be far more interesting and polyrhythmic.

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 09:52 PM

The Movie 1941 was on TV here last night. During the Dance Comp scene, the Big Band breaks into a long 'jive number' in which the drummer takes a lead part and other instruments are just a slight fill. Now that is really using the drum kit well - perhaps technically not a solo, but reminiscent of things like 'Golden Wedding', which was a really big popular hit at the time, and for many years after.

Spielberg really took the piss out of the the US war hysteria (and really got the feel of much of the culture) of the time - pity the US film critics couldn't take it and the film was considered a flop. The more I watch that film the more I like it. It's a great romp.

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: kendall
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 03:14 PM

Why do drummers leave their sticks on the dashboard?




so they can park in the Handicap zone

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 02:51 PM

Remember Stomp? ...nothing but rhythm and percussion - and a great show.

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: GUEST,Songster Bob
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 02:13 PM

You want drum solos? Try this site. It's a blast!

http://www.fjallfil.com/english/

At least, I think that's the site. I don't have the plugin on this computer (the US doesn't want to give it to me), so perhaps it's not the right URL, but it's close, for sure.

Bob

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 01:43 PM

Drum do have a place in folk - international folk, that is. As in African drum music, or Korean or Japanese drum music, etc etc. But closer to home too - there are types of Greek/Albanian/Bulgarian/Turkish music that without the drum (be it a big fella or a little toubeleki) would sound "naked". There are African war dances that without the drum would look silly.

It's just an instrument, with a role to play. And now and then, a well-played solo can be enhancing.

I remember the Chieftains doing a "duelling bodhran" number that was wonderful.

And for the definitive use of drums alone to create music (in my book) listen to Flairck's "Het Debat" from their album "Bal Masque".

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: Tam the man
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 01:25 PM

it gives them something to do.

What about Bordhran solo's then we hardly get to do them, but mind you who want that anyway.

Tom Bordhran player of sorts

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 12:32 PM

I'm not surprised that denizens of a folk-music site would include a number of people who don't especially appreciate drum solos (or for that matter, drumming at all). Most subgenres of "folk" don't include drums or much percussion of any kind. (Yeah, I know, there are plenty of exceptions, notably including the much-maligned bodhran as well as all kinds of maracas, castinets, tambourines, etc. etc., etc. -- but an awful lot of folk features vocals and/or stringed instruments exclusively, as well as other non-percussion instruments like squeezeboxes, etc.)

Once you get into jazz, rock, electric-blues, and various forms of dance music, of course, you introduce the drum, which often means the modern drum kit or set of traps, which provides the percussionist with a dozen or more different items to beat, and hence the wherewithal to out together a creative solo of some kind.

Drummers are largely unappreciated by the musically unsophisticated (by which I mean folk who enjoy drum-based music without recognizing the role of the drum ~ I'm not referring here to those who are simply uninterested in styles that feature the drum). The practice of "giving the drummer some" serves to provide the least-glamorous bandmate a little time in the spotlight, so to speak, and is perfectly appropriate as a courtesy among the musicians. As far as the audience is concerned, some will appreciate the solo and others will not, and for those who can't dig it, well, it's only a couple of minutes out of an evening's entertainment.

That said, there are plenty of drummers who are adequate accompanyists but terrible soloists; that is, they fulfill their role in the ensemble perfectly well, but don't have a clue what to play when granted their Big Moment, except to make a lot of noise. These guys may to trying to imitate other drum solos they've heard, but they failed to listen to good drum solos with enough intelligence to perceive that a truly musicianly drummer (a) stays on the beat when soloing and (b) ideally stays with the rhythmic structure of the entire piece, e.g., conforming to 32-bar verses, etc.

Of course, the good drummers who structure their solos intelligently often go unappreciated. Many audience members are going to dislike any drum solo, and another large contingent will applaud any effort as long as it's noisy and energetic. Those who recognize and appeciate a superior drum solo are few and far between. Of course, one would hope that a truly inspired effort will evoke a positive response, even from those audience members who may not consicously recognize the details of the performance but who are appropriately moved by a well-structured passage.

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: Mooh
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 09:15 AM

My little rockin' blues combo uses lots of drum breaks, well timed and just as likely as sax fills. The only long solo we do has everyone in the band beating on something. It takes a really fine drummer to keep my attention (and the beat) for an extended solo that fits the tune, but it can be done.

John Bonham left a legacy, thank goodness.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: DaveA
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 06:54 AM

I guess we are a broad church as regards music. However, I think there is a need for differentiation between folk & some other forms of music here. I agree with the point made about a drummer being an integral part of a jazz or rock band & have no problem with him/her having their few minutes in the spotlight. However, in the folk genre, where the emphasis is on melody or lyrics, it is hard to see where they can contribute very much to the experience by doing a solo.

Come to think of it, with the exception of some wild fiddling, it is hard to think of many folk performances that feature genuine intrumental breaks of any kind. Steeleye Span use it occasionally (the Daemon Lover comes to mind) but as a rule it seems a folk sung is either vocal or instrumental & the twain rarely meet

Dave

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: s6k
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 06:51 AM

led zeppelin - moby dick

a masterpiece

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 06:45 AM

The answer's simple - most drummers aren't bright enough to realise that the rest of the band have stopped playing.

Subject: RE: Drum solos: Why?
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 06:37 AM

Drummers are certified loonies are are an essential ingredient in any fun-loving band. Audiences pay to be entertained so bring on the loonies!