Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Chris Green
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 07:18 PM

Dah! Said I wouldn't be back, but I feel the need to set the record straight given GUEST, ophelia's post. I have no interest in listening to music made by the BNP, or for that matter anything made by the BNP. Close the thread, please - it's only giving these troglodytes a platform to spout their half-baked cack and making them feel a lot more important than the empty vessels that they are. (Or should that be Horst Vessels?)

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 03:11 PM

I'd sooner eat a plate of warm cow shit without salt.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,Ophelia
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 03:12 AM

I agree duelling,

i am interested to listen to the music produced by the BNP, but until we hear some, then i cant see the point anymore. They have made their introduction now on this issue firmly on mudcat, and i gather elswhere too, especially as john evans has personally invited david hannam to sing at his folk club.

Unless there is music to be heard i dont see the point of this thread unless someone wants to go to bnp tv website section and listen to some of davids stuff there and let us know what you think.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Chris Green
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 09:21 PM

But perhaps not here? There's not been anything remotely musical posted to this thread for a good while. Can we not just let it die? Or if it must continue put it in BS. I made up my mind a while ago that contributing to this kind of discussion is shouting into a vacuum. Brucie et al - I agree with pretty much everything you say. Various "Guests" who support these deluded halfwits who masquerade as a credible political party, read some history. Not that it will change your minds, presumably, as that presupposes that you have minds.

Anyways, I'm offski.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Peace
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 06:48 PM

Good for you, GUEST. I posted the same link on another thread. It always bugs the Nazis when you shed light on them. The 'creatures' of the darkness just hate that. Good work. Keep it up.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,bnp facts
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 03:00 PM

hhahahaha, are you serious about that link to anl?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 11:18 AM

BNP facts.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 06:03 AM

Then maybe it's time the veterans took a hard look at who they call friends.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,reply to ebbie
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 04:35 AM

Ebbie, you say how you are clearly worried about the return of nazism, and thought it was a thing of the past.

I agree, it is worrying, and nazism is a disgusting ideology which seems still to have a small support group on the fringe of decent society, but do not try to tie the BNP and Nazism in the same knot they are completely different. The BNP has its own circle for ex-servicemen who fought against nazism. SO did Nick Griffins father in fact.

It is easy for you to disregard every person who is patriotic enough to love their country enough to worry about their country. Poor veterans see the nation they fought for becoming more and more alien all the time. By calling members of the BNP nazi's you insult every veteran who holds bnp membership. That sir is WRONG

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 07:26 PM

This has been a most interesting thread. This world is muddled and befuddled in more ways than one. I tend to forget about Nazism today and its current efforts. I would have liked to believe that it is a thing of the past, and of course that is not true.

Just now I looked up the American Nazi Party- hoping I'd find that it has evaporated since its founder died, but not so. And now I have a further concern. It appears to me that the Nazi party in America and the BNP are not only in like spirit but are conceivably using the same tactics.

It seems that the British "Nationalist" Party is downplaying its reason for being, obviously hoping and planning to slide in under people's nazi-detecting radar screens, as flamenco ted implies: "It will be interesting to see how the BNP fare at the next election, if they continue their current policy of toning down the rhetoric and expelling some of their more extreme members."

The ANP says this: "...we recognize the fact that behaving in the manner of past activities, little progress has been achieved for our Cause. That is why we have taken a new direction. In the American Nazi Party, you will find no uniforms or ranks, we do not engage in publicly exposing our Comrades to undo publicity through pointless and dangerous Rallies or Marches. We instead stress Small Cell, and Individual Activism as the path for which to build our Movement, as securely and in a responsible manner as possible.

"We are looking for Men and Women, who are willing to sacrifice for the Good of the Folk, not people who are looking for aggrandizement, titillation, or simply causing undirected and useless mayhem. This is not a game or a gang."

As if we didn't have enough worries.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 05:42 PM

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 05 - 08:46 PM

If you want to give a platform to the lyrics posted above, you are supporting them by giving them exposure.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 31 May 05 - 08:40 PM

oh!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Peace
Date: 31 May 05 - 08:39 PM

"Subject: RE: BS: British Nazi Party ((BNP))
From: Rt Hon Sir jOhn from Hull - PM
Date: 31 May 05 - 08:02 PM

brucie- [this is meant in the nicest way possible]=
if you don't like a certain group, just ignore them, starting threads just gives them publicity."


Now you know why I don't ignore them, jOhn. Because they keep getting 'brought up' anyway.

Bruce

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 31 May 05 - 08:36 PM

Before anyone accuses me of been a Nazi or BNP supporter etc, by issuing an open invite to David to attend Hull Folk Club I would like to make the point that we have had probably over 100 performers there in total, if they have a genuine interest in folk/trad music, I don't know their politics and don't care, it's a music club

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 31 May 05 - 08:28 PM

David-I run Hull Folk Club, if you'd like to play there contact me on
07759 668798, phone or text, i'll get straight back to you.
Like Flamenco Ted, I also know your father well.

It's a music club, we don't discuss politics there, if your willing to play for nowt, [we don't charge admission, and don't pay anyone no matter how good they are], your'e as welcome as anyone else.


John Evans [Hull Folk Club].

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 28 May 05 - 02:15 PM

British is not a specific race. It broadly includes English, Scots, Welsh, Manxmen, Cornish, and anyone else a citizen. All it means is an inhabitant of Britain.

That Kipling poem is a remarkable work about the distrust and prejudice that we tend to feel about anything alien. It's natural, but doesn't mean bigotry, hatred and fear are to be encouraged.
Kipling was a patriot, but not a blind one. Have a look at Recessional for an example.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Peace
Date: 27 May 05 - 11:55 AM

Also, before I split for the day. Now, knowing who you are will make things easier when we meet. My wife and I decided to call it a day after 27 years. As with all things, it takes two to tango or tangle--as you will find out when we meet.

See you down the line.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Peace
Date: 27 May 05 - 11:44 AM

But then it shouldn't be "you, too" because you have posted to this thread under your real name. Wake up bucko. The stupid misspellings of Cisco and Leadbelly don't hide who you are. So, I will retract the 'too' and simply say that you are a coward. But that would fit with the party philosophy, wouldn't it?

Piss off.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Peace
Date: 27 May 05 - 11:33 AM

"so your wife left you did she brucie that say's it all."

And fuck you, too.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 27 May 05 - 11:27 AM

As I know Davids dad very well, I don't doubt for a minute that he is sincere in his beliefs.It will be interesting to see how the BNP fare at the next election, if they continue their current policy of toning down the rhetoric and expelling some of their more extreme members.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,John Medlin
Date: 27 May 05 - 11:07 AM

I heard David at a BNP meeting openly denouncing and condemning the old racist music that once had its way in nationalist circles. I was a first time attendee, and i was suspicious of BNP at the time, but i met David and i found him very genuine. I dont agree with everything the BNP says, like withdrawal from EU.

I liked the song corporal fox.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,cissco & sonny & ledbelly to.
Date: 27 May 05 - 10:45 AM

so your wife left you did she brucie that say's it all.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Peace
Date: 26 May 05 - 01:22 PM

"GUEST, Vote BNP: Fuck of."

HA HA. Maybe he did and took the other f with him. LOL.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 05 - 11:42 AM

send me some doe and i'll tell ya
wouldnt like to smell ya

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 05 - 11:41 AM

is that an order mine fooyer

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 05 - 11:39 AM

i'll let you be in my dream if i can scream in yours

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Peace
Date: 26 May 05 - 09:38 AM

Dear Jcd.

Good on yer.

GUEST, Vote BNP: Fuck of.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,Vote BNP
Date: 26 May 05 - 04:23 AM

richard, it says:"Iraqis and Afghans" not the derogatory term "pakis" which would no way be included. There's nowt racist about stating where someone is from/their nationality!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,Jcd
Date: 25 May 05 - 07:25 PM

No problem Richard.

Now I'll admit that the one thing that did make me smile throughout this discussion, was being called an 'intelligent man', on more than one occasion.

I may have balls, but I'm afraid I'm all woman!!

G'night chaps.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 May 05 - 05:36 PM

JcD, thank you for the sources, my misty recollections were obviously at fault

So, David,if you "will never tolerate racist lyrics" can we assume thatif and when you perform the subject song, it will be without the racist reference to "Pakis and Afghans"?

The other thing, David, is that neither you nor anyone else has commented on my view that the music of the song is very reminiscent of Donovan's "Gipsy Boy and I", which to my mind devalues the prospect of widespread liking for this piece - particularly in its main target audience.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 25 May 05 - 10:01 AM

Flamenco - 4 Banjos - 0!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Leadfingers
Date: 25 May 05 - 10:00 AM

Damn You Ted !! Foiled Again !!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Leadfingers
Date: 25 May 05 - 09:59 AM

AND 200 th Post Too !!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 25 May 05 - 09:59 AM

200. misiion accomplished!!! my work here is done!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Leadfingers
Date: 25 May 05 - 09:58 AM

BNP Folk songs ? The mind boggles !!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,VoteBNP
Date: 25 May 05 - 09:42 AM

Haha, brucie is really mad now.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Peace
Date: 25 May 05 - 09:33 AM

I'm a colonial fer krissake. What do you expect?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 25 May 05 - 09:29 AM

Such intemperate language! Where and when isd David playing near Hull? I would like to pop along and listen.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Peace
Date: 25 May 05 - 09:22 AM

Fuck off!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,Vote BNP
Date: 25 May 05 - 04:50 AM

As the originator of this thread, it would be fitting if i closed it. Thanks everyone for the lively debate. I look forward to all this BNP folk music coming soon!!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Peace
Date: 24 May 05 - 07:04 PM

"and as for correcting Grammar...I actually find that to be of help rather than insulting.
Dear GUEST,

I have no idea who you are but I do like you and your posts. I truly hope I didn't offend you at all. If so, I apologize. I very seldom 'correct' people's use of the language--until they call mine into question, and then the gloves come off. Dyslexia is no joke (even mild); I don't know where in the UK you studied, but your English is just fine. And your thoughts are right up there, too.

I don't doubt we shall cross paths again, and please know it will be a pleasure to do so. In the words of some guy I met somewhere in the southern USA, "Y'all take care now, hear?"

BM

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Peace
Date: 24 May 05 - 06:45 PM

Say "Goodnight, Gracie."

"Goodnight, Gracie!"

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,Jcd
Date: 24 May 05 - 04:00 PM

Thankyou Piers that is the point. We can only provide data on achievments and these are based on opportunity, amongst other factors. Intelligence is not linked to race.

Bye David.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,David Hannam BNP Final Post - Nobody cheer:P
Date: 24 May 05 - 03:35 PM

Agree, you see this is the problem we have here. There are conclusions been made about the BNP and myself which are not soundly based. I simply don't want to, (and don't understand why anyone would think i would want to) produce a scientific hypothesis that one race is more able than another. To be quite honest, i have met people from many ethnic backgrounds, some more intelligant than some, others more than others. I simply take individuals on their individual merit.

I aplogize to anyone as a recent post commented if i became agitated, but as i commented, been called a nazi is not nice. I have family who fought in WW2 against Nazism, and therefore clearly you can understand why i would feel offended.

To return to the original point of this entire thread, i.e the PPB Corporal Fox folk song.

All i can say to finally sum up our position after this lengthy discussion, which has been fun, i will give it to you guys, haha, you certainly know how to give a BNP member a hard time, i will sum up with this:

The BNP is backing folk music to the full, and we are going to be producing a LOT of it in the very near future for mass distribution, so we are not going away. We hope to spread decent music, not all political by any means, as that would be boring to general public. I, as the person heading this project will never tolerate racist lyrics, sentiment or anything which spreads hatred through the use of folk music, specifically folk/protest. If i do, you can take that as a definite confirmation of what perhaps a few on here believed about the BNP and myself. I have never pretended the BNP is perfect, but i will say again, the BNP is progressing, and why are we progressing? One of the reasons, (though not the main reason) is that we no longer tolerate the old-fringe element, which has and will continue to recieve their marching orders. I could have come on here and played the fool who pretended that the BNP has never in the past had any bad apples, but i believed, as you are the people believe it or not i usually spend my weekends with around Hull/East Riding in the local folk-clubs, that it would have been an insult to your intelligance. We believe the public will only take us more seriously when we stand evermore a proffessional party and have showed to the public that we do not tolerate fools within the party.
I understand feelings run high on this subject on this thread, so i am going to apologize to anyone i may have snapped at, specifically when they called me a nazi, and i will also forget those accusations, as i simply don't accept them to be true.

One excellant opportunity that has arisen from this thread is that a long-lost friend of mine recognised me on this thread, he is a member of SWP believe it or not, haha, and he rang around old friends and has invited me to play at his local folk club near Hull shortly as a guest.

It has been nice talking to you all, and wish ALL of you the very best, hopefully when in a few months our music starts reaching you, sorry folks, it's going to!!! Then i will come back on here and see what your reactions are, good and bad. Anyway, now i am leaving the thread to get on with my work, those who want to can now bash me to their hearts content;-)

Best regards,

David Hannam






"If DH wants to make a case, he must produce a scientific hypothesis and then it must be tested. Conversely, if we want to say (for example) that one category of persons is as able as another, then we too must produce hypothesis and test".

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,David Hannam BNP
Date: 24 May 05 - 03:09 PM

"Please do not for one second think that because this Thread has not been closed david that it in any way shows supposrt for your party...You did however in my opinion cross the line when you specifically attacked a Member...personal attacks against Members are not encouraged on the Mudcat."

Yes, because lets face it, it's not like i have recieved any personal attacks on here is it????

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Peace
Date: 24 May 05 - 03:05 PM

Good for you, Piers. And all the other anti-racists here.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Piers
Date: 24 May 05 - 02:55 PM

Any attempts to measure intelligence according to race will always be flawed because it is not possible to measure 'intelligence' independent of learning (nurture) this could be attempted with comparisons of large numbers of genetically identical twins across environments but from what I remember of the results of these experiments, they were inconclusive and moreover intelligence is whatever intelligence tests measure, rather than some objective metric criteria.

There is no scientific foundation for racism. There is only one biological race of people on this planet: the human race.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,Jcd
Date: 24 May 05 - 02:03 PM

info re black female qualifications.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,Jcd
Date: 24 May 05 - 01:53 PM

Richard you are correct with your observation that Carribean black males are at the lower end of academic achievers. The current stats break black into African and Carribean, as the cultural reasons given for the lower achievers amongst Carribean males, do not apply to males from black African families.

And having said that we can further break the stats re Carribean males down to the actual islands that their parents hail from. Domenica being a predominantly (now it's either christian or catholic) island, do not have the same cultural values as those found in other carribean islands...ie the single parent household factor does nt seem to apply to children from Domenican backgrounds.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,Jcd
Date: 24 May 05 - 01:44 PM

Richard here is the info re higher qualified black African males....I have the stats re black female students in a heap of TUC papers, but can hunt them down on the net and post them if you wish.

I have also read about the schizophrenia stats, but I don't know the medical reasons given. Sickle cell is I think due to the genetic make up?


Union leader John Monks said the figures, published by the Office for National Statistics, revealed that "racism still blights the working lives" of many black and Asian people in Britain.

The figures reveal that there are wide variations in unemployment levels between ethnic groups.

The unemployment figure for Indian men is just 1% higher than that for white male workers.

But Black Caribbean, African and Pakistani/Bangladeshi men have much higher unemployment rates.

Higher qualifications

The study indicates that the pattern of unemployment is similar for women, although those of Pakistani and Bangladeshi origin have a high unemployment rate of 24%.

It says ethnic minority workers are just as qualified as whites, with some groups such as Black African and Indian achieving higher qualifications.

Mr Monks, general secretary of the TUC said: "It is crucial that unions and employers work together to combat racist attitudes at work."

The study says there are 2.4 million ethnic minority people of working age in Britain, almost half of whom live in London.

It also says:


Around 75% of ethnic minority men work in the service sector, compared with just over 65% of white men.

52% of working Bangladeshi men and 44% of working Chinese men are employed in restaurants. The figure for white men is 1%.

One in eight Pakistani men are cab drivers or chauffeurs, compared with a national average of one in 100.

Indian men are 10 times more likely than average to be doctors.




Office for National Statistics
Commission for Racial Equality

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 May 05 - 01:06 PM

JcD, could we have backup statistics please? Emotionally I want to agree most of the way, but...Certainly many of the law students I teach at London South Bank University are black (Afro-Carribean), but at a guess I would say more black male than female. Some are excellent and some not so. I would however be quite surprised if: -

"Black African males are amongst the most highly qualified of our ex students" - at least if by that you imply that statistically Black African males are more prevalent (apart from WASPS) than any other grouping among the higher percentile markings in academic achievement.

This is not a supposition on my part, but an observation of actual classwork grades amongs those whose work I have marked.

I think I remember seeing some GCSE grade statistics with rankings, and my recollection (which may be faulty) is that the 4 top slots were: -

Sino-Japanese, female
Sino-Japanese, male
Asian, Female
Asian, Male

with Afro-Carribean, Male, at the bottom. The hypothesis was, I think, adverse cultural influence and expectation, but I'm not sure.

Once (and not until) you have the bare facts you can start to look for reasons, and maybe even cures (if you don't like the facts).

And, shouters, please could we stop shouting? The Mudcat may possibly be the only place in the world where we could have an informed and temperate discussion. You may remember that Professor Eysenck produced some IQ statistics that purported to show a correlation between race and IQ. I don't remember the outcome of the discussion that resulted, nor do I remember how the nature/nurture artefact was removed from the data, but inertial data must surely be necessary.

For example (I don't have the root data) I am pretty sure that the diagnosed rate of incidence of schizophrenia is several times higer in black males than white - but at the moment we have (I think) no idea why. It might be prejudice in the diagnosticians, it might be a causative factor in local conditions, it might be genetic, we don't know. Conversely, sickle cell anaemia is restricted to the Afro-Carribean population and the reason is genetic.

If DH wants to make a case, he must produce a scientific hypothesis and then it must be tested. Conversely, if we want to say (for example) that one category of persons is as able as another, then we too must produce hypothesis and test.

If we want, however, to say that people should be treated equally despite possession of different ability, then that is a moral judgement, and we know it breaks down at the limit, for we generally accept that we may detain on mental health grounds those likely to be a danger to themselves or others.

The issue with the song is that it condemns for no reason other than race. That, I think, may be hard to justify.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Nick
Date: 24 May 05 - 11:59 AM

There was a delightful story recently that the BNP had to cancel an election night party as they had inadvertently booked an ethnically different comedian.

Stunning incompetence.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Peace
Date: 24 May 05 - 10:20 AM

"I was referring in earlier posts not about your grammer"

It's grammar.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Peace
Date: 24 May 05 - 10:07 AM

Mi, a name I call myself,
Fa, a long long way to run . . .

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,Duh!
Date: 24 May 05 - 10:03 AM

LOL Brucie...wasn't Doh a deer, a female Deer and ray a drop of golden sun.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Peace
Date: 24 May 05 - 09:55 AM

"nazi's are peope   doh!"

Rewrite: Nazis are people, doh!"

Crap people, but people.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 05 - 08:29 AM

LOL I have enjoyed of three of your posts MM...nice lol
Your forgiven too for all the 3 posts you have contributed..there now we are all square on the forgiveness subject...ok..
rofl

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: movingmountains
Date: 24 May 05 - 08:25 AM

nazi's are peope   doh!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: movingmountains
Date: 24 May 05 - 08:21 AM

the melody made the words into lyrics hence the song
your political stance is just as fascist condemning abusing and edeavouring to discount the others viewpoint

maybe you are saint. probably think you are. oh yes the pope supported hitler too. lets burn the heretics.

open your heart you need forgiveness i feel your pain and fear. you are forgiven

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 05 - 08:19 AM

david david david.
Indeed? Perhaps it would be prudent in that case then to remove yourself from associating with People like Griffin.
Disassociate yourself completely from men and women that applaud what you yourself call "the evil tyranny of Nazism" saying that you may not agree with "all" of the opinions held just does not cut it I'm afraid.

Regarding the subject of profanity.... some of your supporters that have entered this Forum as Guests to make statements have made it obvious from their Grammar that they may not be able to understand "debate" as you call it.
Sometimes the effort of debate with this kind of mentality is futile and one finds that direct expression of the feelings that arise when reading posts such as theirs provokes one to respond with profanity.
In your Party and it's supporter's case let's just call it an occupational hazard and comes with the job!
I find it's use neither offensive or showing a lack of thought or intelligence on the part of the members here.
I see the unforunate emotions that are brought to the surfaced when people read Nazi propaganda. That I find sad....the emotions that is not the people feeling it!

Again, I ask you, politely...Please go somehwere else and take your Supporters with you.
You have NOTHING of value to contribute to this Forum unfortunately and as the age old saying goes "you can tell a man by the Company he keeps"
If that saying is true...the Company you keep is most defintely NOT the kind of Company that a good number of the people who are Members here wish to encourage or associate with with. ( I can only speak for those who I know but the posts from members thoughout this thread would indeed show that to be fact)
I am sure that this Thread has taken up a considerable amount of your time...so again I ask you to take your own advice which I agree with...I too think we should call a (I, myself would say 'it') quits on this.
I can ASSURE you that all of the people that have posted responses to you and your associates do indeed work (that remark wasn't very well thought out now was it!)...and as for correcting Grammar...I actually find that to be of help rather than insulting.
I appreciate it more than some as I suffer from mild dyslexia.
Also a "mudcat rushed post" could explain some of the members of this Forum's reaction to even finding anything even vaguely associated with Racism and in shock some may feel to "resort to inexplicable hurls of abuse such as Fuck, Shit, Bullshit" I find it perfectly understandable myself.
It is a horrible subject matter and does envoke some very strong feelings in some.

So there we have it, by the tone of your last two posts you have indeed shown yourself in your true light. I can see why you are becoming, shall we say annoyed...and if you are indeed feeling that way then you can perhaps find empathy with those that hold the same feelings towards your party.
May I respectfully request that some of the more, shall we say, alert minds here not respond any further to david and his supporters posts as to debate is to encourage and to encourage is to...basically allow their opinion a outlet here on the Mudcat....and I...(unforunately david) already know what the Party you are a member of stands for...and no ammount of attempts of your part to justify, defend or explain will change my already poor, if not, complete disgust for what your Party represents.
It was an interesting interlude but has now well passed that point...and if your last two posts are anything to go by...it would seem it has no where to go now but down.
Please take this remark I am about to make in the correct context...
I sincerly and deeply hope that I never have to meet, correspond or debate with you or your party on this forum ever again...this is a principle issue david. The seperation of personalties and principles.

Again Bruce and Jcd...Thank you. I have read your inputs with great interest and repeat you are both very articulate and intellegent men and you have my total respect.

Please do not for one second think that because this Thread has not been closed david that it in any way shows supposrt for your party...You did however in my opinion cross the line when you specifically attacked a Member...personal attacks against Members are not encouraged on the Mudcat.

I have ZERO Tolerance regarding Racism regardless of how it is presented and your party is fortunate indeed that I am not a moderator here...for the very first post on this thread would have been sent into cyber space...
Your Political package may look inviting...but I have learned that the box when opened does not reflect the outside cover no matter how attractive the wrapping may seem to be.

I make no apologies for my grammar, my mistakes are due to a known (mild in my case) affliction and not to the rather splendid, free education I received in the UK and for which I am grateful and hope that many other Children from many other Cultures regardless of their skin colour or Ethnic background continue to receive also.

I would end this response usually with a curtious remark david...but none, none come to mind.
So being unable to say anything pleasant to you...

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,DavidHannam BNP
Date: 24 May 05 - 04:57 AM

Bruce you say your ex-father in-law spent time in a WW2 Camp, then i certainly could understand why you would feel an instinctive disgust towards Nazi's, but bear in mind my two grandfathers fought in the second world war against the evil tyranny of Nazism too, so when people accuse me of being a Nazi, i too get highly strung. For me to think otherwise would be an insult to my grandfathers and my family.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,David Hannam BNP
Date: 24 May 05 - 04:49 AM

Brucie, Brucie, Brucie, The fact that you spent the time out of your clearly mundane life, (I take it you don't work?) to spend time correcting my mudcat rushed post, tells me a thousand nuances about you. You are a very sad individual. I was referring in earlier posts not about your grammer, but about your need to resort to inexplicable hurls of abuse. Fuck, Shit, Bullshit, all seem a routine part of your minute by minute thinking. Thankfully, others on here and far more interesting to debate with, so i think we should call a quits on this. Unless you want to come back with another 'clever' retort,though bear in mind it may be your signing on day today.

Brucie wrote:

"As for [THE] person who remarked my post was "Bullshit", [I] understand you find it hard to reply without resorting to crude language of abuse[;] you may even be another case of falling standards of English[--]perhaps in our current education system? But[,] [I] note you never answered any of my points with intellig[e]nt reply[.] Basically, what [I]'m saying in case it is lost on you, is that your post was bullshit.

I, dickhead, am a Colonial. Take a lesson and look sharp about it. "

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,cissco & sonny & ledbelly to.
Date: 24 May 05 - 04:32 AM

its is for us to find in our selfs that what we hold most dear' have we made the world a better place when we go to bed tonight if not who are we to judge.: i would think what we hold most dear is ourselfs, if thats the case we add nothing.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,cissco & sonny & ledbelly to.
Date: 24 May 05 - 04:13 AM

and so do i ted.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Peace
Date: 23 May 05 - 09:58 PM

GUEST:

It is Jcd who deserves the plaudits. He has been cool and erudite with all his posts. I am afraid that my thoughts about Nazis are someone conditioned by my past. My ex father-in-law spent 2 1/2 years in a camp courtesy of those people. Therefore, I seldom even try to reason with them. Nazis bring out the best of the worst in me. Although I am able to construct English text that contains no 'bad' language, when it comes to addressing Nazis I seem not to care about that. However, thank you very much for your kind words.

Sincerely,

Bruce

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Peace
Date: 23 May 05 - 09:25 PM

And, it's not "anti-semetic", it's anti-semitic.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 05 - 09:25 PM

JCD and BRUCIE...articulate, obviously very intelligent Men have asked you questions time and time again that you are either unable to address or are unwilling to answer...may I take the liberty of saying your own words back to you david. I would advise you not to bother posting again on the subject, as you clearly don't have anything useful to add.
In my opinion it would indeed be batter by far if you and your supporters did not post on this forum again on any subject regardless of it's nature.
That is my opinion of course.


Again Thank you Bruce and Jcd for a most illuminating discourse and for providing some very interesting links and background information.
You are both indeed a breath of fresh air in what is most definetly a rather rank and definetly foul subject matter.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,Jcd
Date: 23 May 05 - 09:17 PM

Sorry forgot to ask....

To be quite honest, the idea that i am anti-semetic is incredible. This really is nobody's business, but i have a neice who is half-jewish, and i love her more than life.

So why are you supporting your leader Nick Griffin who edited 'The Rune' (an anti semetic publication) and denies the holocaust happened?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,Jcd
Date: 23 May 05 - 07:56 PM

David, thankyou for your responses. I have read them and as you know I won't be agreeing with them, for the following reasons -

Your party cites multi culturalism as failing. And your justification for this belief is the current rise in black on black crime. I agree that it is an area of concern, it was I that pointed it out, but it is not indicative of the behaviour of the majority of African/Carribean people. It is a statistic that represents a minority. Would you wish the UK to be judged on the actions of the mindless minority on the football terraces?

You state that rising white male violence is a product of their being under valued etc etc....the same applies to black males. Colour is not the reason David, if so, both groups would not be experiencing the same rise in violence.

There is not just one factor that can be seen as the cause of rising violence within our society. But a number of contributing factors. Unemployment and poverty are the two main reasons for it's rise. These are social issues, that stem from peoples social standing, not their colour.

Currently black females are entering higher education at a higher rate than their white peers. And proportionally they are leaving higher qualified, than their white peers.

Black African males are amongst the most highly qualified of our ex students, yet they have a higher rate of unemployment on leaving educational institutions. Discrimination does already exist in the work place, institutional and otherwise. The Stephen Lawrence report makes good reading, as I am sure you know.

Is it any wonder that black people as a group feel under valued and lack self esteem? They have already been made to feel marginalised and are unable to compete on a level playing field. Now you can either take the view that they don't deserve the same rights as whites, or you can take the view that they are being treated unfairly. It all depends on whether you believe colour should be reason enough to bar individuals success. You take the former view, whereas I take the latter.

It was the Thatcher led Governments that chose to dismiss the findings of the Scarman and Swann reports. They both recommended that a broader multi cultural curriculum would be the key factor in eliminating future prejudice and the problems stemming from that. They both recognised that the children of the immigrants so warmly welcomed to our shores in the 40'sand 50's, were being excluded in the education system. Their specific needs were not being met and their potential not being recognised. These issues are now being addressed. People need role models to aspire to and more black teaching professionals are entering the school system, albeit slowly.

The police force has obvious self created problems, and they need to address them if they wish to attract black serving officers. Until people feel they have a role within organisations, they will not be inclined to join them.

It is totally ludicrous to use the example of one murder at the Notting Hill festival (attended by approx 1.5 million people) as an example of multi culturalism failing. Harold Shipman murdered how many people, do you therefore advocate white male doctors being barred from practising?

You state that 'these' multi cultural festivals start and end in violence. Which ones do you have in mind? How many have you canvassed at? The crime figures do not tally with your preconcieved perceptions of reality.

You say that any political party with a membership from working class people will include many with past convictions. That is insulting to working class people. The BNP always has and always will ( maybe) attract the criminal element that no other party would be proud of or tolerate. It is your leadership where these convictions are the most worrying, except realistically they are not worrying in themself, as you will never be a major power or threat to society. A group of scared people huddling together and preaching hate will always be pitiful, but the damage that you can do to individuals is where the harm lies. It is bullying David.

Which of Nick Griffins opinions do you not support? And have you challenged him on these opinions? How can you claim to have expelled those guilty of 'disgusting utterings' when you follow a man who has made a career from them? I would be really interested to know exactly which opinions he holds that you do not share. And the blanket statement you offered as an answer to that, will not really suffice. Read through Brucie's posts, they contain some of Nick's finest, which of those views precisely do you not share?

You state that you would have no objection to family from 'overseas' joining their family already living here....how does that fit in with your ban on future immigration?

You asked when were the British people asked if they wished to be part of a multi cultural society. I would answer that they were given the opportunity in our last general election to show their feelings on that one. If they all believed/thought as you do, the BNP wouldn't have lost so many deposits. You recieved approx 0.75% of the vote. They didn't vote to support your policies then, that was when they were asked.

Which mp's were you thinking of when you called them perverts? And how is their behaviour perverse?

And as you point out the BNP are 'obviously' not helping third world countries, but the highly qualified medical professionals that we are lucky to have in our midst can send money to their families and in that way can help them also secure a future possibly not available otherwise. Would you refuse life saving treatment from a black doctor? Of course not. If the education system has failed those born and bred in the UK, to the extent where they were unable to gain the qualifications needed, how do you suppose the overseas medics gained them?

Yes David we have many problems at the moment in the UK, but segregation and exclusion are the cause, not the solution. If you genuinely wanted to help in the democratic process towards alleviating our problems, you would be allying yourself with those who are seeking workable solutions, not alienating yourselves within an organisation that wields no power.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Peace
Date: 23 May 05 - 06:15 PM

"As for person who remarked my post was "Bullshit", i understand you find it hard to reply without resorting to crude language of abuse, you may even be another case of falling standards of English perhaps in our current education system? But i note you never answered any of my points with intelligant reply? Basically, what i'm saying in case it is lost on you, is that your post was bullshit."

David, David, David. I seldom do what I am about to do, but for you I will make an exception to the generally-held polite rule that it is bad manners to correct another's English in public. If you cut and paste the above elsewhere, please use the rewritten one I shall herewith provide.

As for [THE] person who remarked my post was "Bullshit", [I] understand you find it hard to reply without resorting to crude language of abuse[;] you may even be another case of falling standards of English[--]perhaps in our current education system? But[,] [I] note you never answered any of my points with intellig[e]nt reply[.] Basically, what [I]'m saying in case it is lost on you, is that your post was bullshit.

I, dickhead, am a Colonial. Take a lesson and look sharp about it.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Peace
Date: 23 May 05 - 05:50 PM

So look, Davy, if I ask you PLEASE, with jam and sugar on it, to--hey! how about Sex and Travel? Will that work?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Peace
Date: 23 May 05 - 05:48 PM

WOW!

Well, it was enough to gag me! I particularly enjoyed the letter below. Man, you guys got class--and you plan ahead.


"Dear Mr. Tyndall,

We are now in election mode in the lead up to June 10th. Accordingly I am instructed by the National Chairman to write to you in the following terms:

The many photographs of you in neo-nazi uniform have always been a public relations handicap for the Party. After the end of this week - weekending 18/04/2004 - I am instructing you, with the authority of the National Chairman, not to address meetings of the British National Party until after June 10th. This also applies to any interview requests from the media.

Yours for Race & Nation
A. Lecomber,
Director, Group Development & Regulation"

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Peace
Date: 23 May 05 - 05:41 PM

Found some pictures of yer friends . . . .

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Peace
Date: 23 May 05 - 05:34 PM

Listen up, jack. You belong to a racist party in the UK. I do not give a rat's ass how reasonable you think you're being. Your position is untenable. Your words fall on deaf ears. However, I figure if I can keep you tied up here jerkin' off, then you won't be out corrupting kids. That's a good thing.

"i would advise you not to bother posting again on the subject"

And I in turn would advise you to to take your Nazi propaganda elsewhere.

"i understand you find it hard to reply without resorting to crude language"

That's the way I normally talk. You don't have to be so impolite! However, I will change my request from 'fuck off' to "Would you be so kind as to fuck off?" Ya feel better now?

Besides, you haven't told us with which of that idiot's points you DO agree.

Martin, where the hell are you?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,David Hannam BNP
Date: 23 May 05 - 03:56 PM

"If the fringe element has been removed under the leadership of Nicky, you must have had some friggin' lulus. If you are the moderate crew, I am amazed. So even keeled, so polite, and so false. Fuck off".

What your having a go at me been polite? So if i was a shaven-skinhead buffoon hurling abuse your not happy, but your equally unhappy if i show just human politeness to you?

Look, I'm just trying to defend a position with rational debate for and against, fair enough, if your going to attack me for been polite, then really, i would advise you not to bother posting again on the subject, as you clearly don't have anything useful to add.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,David Hannam BNP
Date: 23 May 05 - 03:34 PM

You asked if supported "All" of Nick Griffins comments? Of course not, only a robot could argree with someone completely. I share a common goal to see equality both for native Britons and Ethnic Britons with the BNP. Surely you must accept that human beings are allowed to campaign under the banner of a cause, but disagree with elements of that philosophy, politics, or policies etc? You wouldn't be human if you didn't have your own mind.

As for person who remarked my post was "Bullshit", i understand you find it hard to reply without resorting to crude language of abuse, you may even be another case of falling standards of English perhaps in our current education system? But i note you never answered any of my points with intelligant reply? Basically, what i'm saying in case it is lost on you, is that your post was bullshit.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Peace
Date: 23 May 05 - 03:01 PM

"under the leadership of Nick Griffin, that small fringe-element of the party has been removed."

If the fringe element has been removed under the leadership of Nicky, you must have had some friggin' lulus. If you are the moderate crew, I am amazed. So even keeled, so polite, and so false. Fuck off.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 05 - 02:49 PM

That last question was to David. So David do you support your party leader Nick Griffin? Do you disagree with his comments?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 05 - 02:42 PM

Do you support all the comments of Nick Griffin?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Peace
Date: 23 May 05 - 02:37 PM

I know bullshit when I see it. That's bullshit.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,David Hannam BNP
Date: 23 May 05 - 02:36 PM

Thank you for your lengthy reply, i will try to reply to most points one
at a time.

"The public have been shown to wildly over estimate the number of ethnic
minorities living in the UK. A recent poll showed that the majority
thought a staggering 22.5% of people living in the UK belong to ethnic
minority groups. As you know, this figure is actually three times the true
figure, gleaned from census returns".

In 2001 The Home Office released census forecast figures that specifically
highlighted that if current immigration trends continue and also low
indigenous-population birthrate remains low, the indigenous Britons will
be a minority within 60-100 years. I agree, in many cities folk may
over-estimate the ethnic population for their town/city, however, those
peoples real fears are borne out of the fear of becoming a minotity in the
their own country. Again, if this was any other country in the world, were
the native inhabitants were facing becoming a minority, it would be called
genocide.

Multi-Cultural Britain is of course here to stay, and righfully so, most
ethnics are law-abiding, decent hard working people. The idea that would
should ever have an all-white Britain is simply not feasible or fair.

"The introduction to the census returns, whereby new categories of ethnic
minority groups were listed, the most recent being Irish and Mixed race,
inflated the figures. The true figure of ethnic minority groups living in
the Uk is approx 9.9%. Of which 1.4% are mixed race, and 1.2% being
Irish."

Yes, but crime statistics show a dissproportionate percentage of the total
crime figures consisting of ethnics perpetrators. As you say, in London,
it is more black-on black crime that is the issue, but this merely shows
that multi-culturalism as failed. Blacks do not feel they have an identity
in Britain. Muslims also feel that they are unable to mix, and rightfully
so, why should they, they are simply interested in preserving their own
identity and culture, just as the BNP is concerned about ours.

"I will not respond to your 'fear' that third world countries are being
left to flounder as we poach their people. But perhaps you could tell us
how the BNP is actively helping third world countries, to allay your
'fear' for their survival".

I do not know why you don't want to respond to our fear that the third
world is indeed being looted by successive governments, when those skilled
workers are in so much desperate need back in their home countries. The
BNP is of course not actively helping the Third World, we are more
interested in helping the poverty-stricken child, and more interested in
providing solutions to the problems we face at home. However, do not doubt
that the BNP would bring an eventual end to the huge importing of foreign
nurses/doctors. We would train our own people primarily, and reject
looting the third world of precious skilled workers.

"I do not doubt that some people are charmed by the BNP's new style
concern for the country. But you have to admit that your leadership relies
on some grass root thugs to help spread their word. And your leadership
has in the past not helped your cause and until that changes, along with
your membership policies, the majority of average thinking voters will see
through the charm offensive".

We are mostly a working-class party, and our membership is generally
working class in its make-up, so inevitably we are always going to have
some members with past convictions. In today's Britain, recent Home Office
Stats 2003 showed that 4 in 10 youngsters today will eventually have some
form of criminal conviction/warning etc to their record. Personally
speaking, i would rather have an individual who made a stupid mistake in
the past when young and got carried away at a football match, than the
perverts who infest the main parties.

"When Andy Sykes (a former very high profile BNP member) became
disillusioned with what he found within your organization, he became a
'mole' for the TUC and proved very successful at dispelling the image that
your party tried to portray. The BBC documentary that he helped happen
left no doubts what the underlying attitude amongst both your leaders AND
grass root supporters were. This was last year Dave, are you trying to
tell us that your party has disassociated itself with all of the ideals it
followed less than 12 months ago?"

Actually, Andy Sykes has been revealed that he was working for
Searchlight/BBC from day one, as he has recently confirmed. They had six
months video footage and all they revealed was a few lads at their local
spouting racist utterings. I agree, such utterings are disgusting, and
they were henceforth expelled. I have never pretended this party is
perfect, but i believe as long as we keep aiming to do right, such people
will become less and less.

"Being convicted of inciting race hatred amongst other crimes does not
make your party membership credible".

I think you will find that being convicted of racial hatred in today's
Britain is actually very easy. You can not even question the
multi-cultural experiment without been hounded by the police. Immigration
today is what sex was to the Victorians. Do you believe people should be
imprisoned for 'offending' people, after all, humans have offended each
other for thousands of years, and will do for another thousand years, i
personally do NOT believe in thought-crimes, people should be free to
think what they want.

"Your recent manifesto, while carefully saying that the immigrants here
are welcome, also called for a ban on further immigration. Did you include
white Australians , Americans, Canadians and New Zealanders as groups to
be refused entry? Your party is trying to dissassociate itself with it's
colour ban".

When we say immigrants, we refer to all immigrants whatever their colour,
however, many Britons have family across the seas in such nations as
Canada, New-Zealand etc, if such a case arised were they needed help, they
are our kith-kin, and we should help them. I differentiate between family
across the seas, and asylum-seekers who cross upto 21 Countries simpy to
get to Britain.

"Your call for the reintroduction of capital punishment and National
Service may win a knee jerk support from some quarters. But you then call
for all ex serving National service folk to be able to own and house a
modern assault rifle. These are not policies that try to address the UK
problems in peaceable means".

They do address UK problems. We believe a criminal should not be allowed to enter a persons home and have the upper-hand to terrorise, maim and steal without the innocent victim allowed to retalliant. It is all very well to speak of peacable solutions, but that does not help the poor family who are broken into by violant criminals with unknown intent.

"You claim that cultures can not exist peacably together. That the mix is a
recipe for violence. London has hundreds of multi racial festivals every
year. The BNP should try and canvass at these festivals, to see how people
can merge. The arrests at these events, as you know, are minute, and far
less than those at any internationl football match where English
supporters are tarred by the mindless violence that a minority are
addicted to".

At the Notting Hill Festival two years ago there was not a few minor arrests, but one arrest for MURDER, and the usual huge of spate of anti-social crimes that were committed at that festival. These multi-cultural festivals do not usually start or end in peace.

"You claim that London, amongst other cities, is a hot bed of Asian/Black
versus white violence. This is not the truth Dave, the biggest rise in
London crime stems from black on black violence, borne from a growing drug
and gun culture. These are social problems, who's roots lie in the
poliarising of rich/poor that inner cities are experiencing".

Yes. Black on Black crime is a huge problem, but not a problem the native population ever voted to have heaped upon them. Where is the democracy in that? When were the British people ever asked if they wanted a multi-cultural society? Black on black crime merely shows that young blacks in the UK are without an indentifiable culture of their own, just as many Asian elders now despair what is happening to their children, as they see them engage in yobbery, crime and other forms of western decadance.

"As duelling points out, the biggest threat to your 'average' white person
in our inner cities comes from the growing culture of white excessive
drinking and the policing problems relating to that are too well
documented for me to bore you with"

Increased white crime is a factor of many. The destruction of the family nucleus by successive liberal governments, anti-male measures, instilling in young males a feeling of worthlessness, i.e in school they are taught it is outdated to think of themselves as a bread-winner. Young white-males are also polluted by criminal-american culture that has made its stake in the UK. Unemployment plays a huge factor in white males psyche too.

"Instead of fearing difference, I and the majority of Londoners celebrate
and embrace it. It is possible to recognise and respect others cultures,
while at the same time maintaining your own"

Well Kriss Donald from Glasgow embraced different cultures, he was raised with ethnic cultures, he had friends who were asian, and where did that celebration of multi-culturalism get him? He was murdered because he was white, as admitted by the Judge in that case, tortured, beaten and eyes gouged out.

Now, as for the recent posts 'exposing' my 'criminal past' and the quite alarming tone of many of the messages, i will reply. Actually, if you look at my earlier post, i already alerted you to my past conviction. I wrote:

"As regards my 'conviction', it is true i was convicted for inciting 'racial hatred'. However, i would ask all who are interested to read the true facts of this case. I was 17 at the time, and i made the crucial mistake of trusting an elder member of the then pre-Nick Griffin BNP, and trusting this elder member got me into much trouble. That member was expelled for distributing leaflets in my name without actually informing me. I'm not going to tell you the BNP has always been perfect, when we know very that is has not, but i am saying that for the last 5 years, specifically under the leadership of Nick Griffin, that small fringe-element of the party has been removed.

To be really honest, that incident is the biggest regret of my life. Most people who know me, find the idea of me been anti-semetic laughable, as indeed it is. On a lighter note, not to mention my rather fanatical following of Leonard Cohen and Bob Dylan when both on tour".

As i have said, i was 17 at the time, and the older man who published and distributed that filth in my name, under my Po Box was instantly expelled. I never even saw the leaflet as was revealed in the ensuing court case. I found the contents of that leaflet abhorrant then, and find them abhorrant now and always. To be quite honest, the idea that i am anti-semetic is incredible. This really is nobody's business, but i have a neice who is half-jewish, and i love her more than life. It is wrong for people to call me a 'Nazi' 'Racist', as such an accusation is very serious, and people who say this do not, and to be fair, could not have had all the facts at their disposal, except some dodgy looking BBC website.

I have apologized in the past to every single person who testified against that leaflet, because it was done in my name without my knowledge.

I have come on here as a lover of folk music, and also as a BNP representative. I don't mind critical posts, i don't mind abusive posts to some extent, but what i have read recently puts me off even writing on here anymore. I disagree with many people on here i imagine, but i am not going to start hurling abuse at them the likes of which i have recieved the last two days.

Regards

David

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Peace
Date: 23 May 05 - 01:20 PM

And while I'm at it, where the hell is Martin Gibson? Martin, get yer ass in here and say a few words, will ya?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Peace
Date: 23 May 05 - 01:13 PM

Has it stuck anyone that this BNP crew are like a bad case of crabs?

I may not have told you about the time I got crabs. Anyone want to hear about it? Yes? OK, then, if you insist.

It was in Jacksonville, Florida on a warm day in a deep and dark September (apologies to Paul there)--oh, I've told you about this already? Allow me to change the extended simile.


Has it struck anyone that this BNP crew are like a bad case of clap?

I may not have told you about the time I got clap. Anyone want to hear about it? Yes? OK, then, if you insist.

It was in in Jacksonville, Florida on a warm day in a deep and dark September (apologies to Paul again)--oh, I've told you about this already? Allow me to change the extended simile.


Has it struck anyone that this BNP crew are like a bad case of scabies? I know I never told you about this because I never got scabies in Jacksonville, Florida--so this time I don't have to apologize to Paul!

The British Nazi Party [BNP] are a gang of boys who like to beat up women and anyone they think is 'weaker' than them. Personally, I think you are a crowd of sissies--you wear your mother's underwear and dance before the swastika, probably in heels. I expect you get your sexual gratification from jerking each other off--at least those of you still capable of achieving an erection. As the lady above said, you lost the election. I read your financial statement. You could double the amount in your coffers if you paid a few pounds each time you shagged one another.

Kiddies, the Party's over. You have attracted all the members of the lunatic fringe and there are only sane folks left. Sane people won't vote for you. So, to quote a woman you put the boots to, FUCK OFF.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Peace
Date: 23 May 05 - 12:47 PM

Official BNP Poster Boy

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Peace
Date: 23 May 05 - 12:31 PM

"Thanks David for coming on and putting your view across. I wouldn't, however, bother responding though to people who use such language - they are pathetic and when they resort to such expletives, it shows they have just lost the argument."

Dearest David, honey poo, when you let your crankcase boy off his leash, tell him he should eat my fuckin' shorts.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 05 - 10:42 AM

David did not write a song...If you had read the thread completely and followed the links offered to you, you would know that...CORPORAL FOX (Nick Griffin) was not written by "David"
"artists are precious keep writing david" ......oh dear.
Just so we can all be quiet clear on Griffin's talent as an Artist.
here is some of his, shall we say, more colourful opinions...

"There was nothing there which was outrageous or evil or inciteful or anything like that." Nick Griffin speaking about a BNP social event he attended where jokes about 'niggers' and the Nazi concentration camps were told.

[The BNP needs to be seen as] "a strong, disciplined organisation with the ability to back-up its slogan 'Rights for Whites' with well directed boots and fists." Nick Griffin

and with Folk Songs too now it would seem...

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: movingmountains
Date: 23 May 05 - 10:31 AM

new to the site and shocked to read all this political backstabbing and personal abuse going on grow up folkies dont shoot the artist cos you dont like the art
all politics is a trap left right its all a con to distract us from sharing and communing from our hearts now. thats the role of art to transform these superficial views of life into a more humanitarian understanding. stead of attacking david ask him to write a song from the other viewpoint put the two together and we may get a better view of the man and the art.
we're all disenfranchised.................in this world only our consciousness can be free........we need our hearts to show the way
artists are precious keep writing david

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 05 - 09:42 AM

It seems a sensible time to close this thread - just a thought.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 05 - 09:00 AM

Born and brought up by yardies.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,Jcd
Date: 23 May 05 - 08:38 AM

Once, these crimes were blamed on Yardie gangsters, importing a criminal way of life from Jamaica. Now, the majority of both victims and suspects are young men born and brought up in Britain.


Tha above is part of a statement issued by a Scotland Yard detective.
Check it out. Or not.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 05 - 08:34 AM

They are English.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 05 - 08:32 AM

JCD posted below -

'the biggest rise in London crime stems from BLACK ON BLACK VIOLENCE, borne from a growing drug and gun culture'

That is not exactly a great advert for letting yet more of them into England is it?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Alba
Date: 23 May 05 - 08:03 AM

Hey don't think for this mudcatter...and you ain't a member of my "fellowship" mate.

Your politics LOST in 1945....
Profanity offends you..oh well too bad...Racsim and Anit-Semitism offends me so I guess we are even eh..
I also got a bit offended at the hands of some of your lackies a while back and I am sure that countless people have been offended by your methods of hammering your Political views Home and funny I don't remeber anyone singing from your Party while hammering your points across!

I have NEVER felt the need to literally "hammer" home my politcial values the way you do.

So in saying that.....FUCK YOU David for coming on and putting your view across. I wouldn't, however, bother responding though to ME who used said language - I am a Human being not a bottom dweller like yourself and supporters and when I resort to such expletives, it shows the contempt that I hold for you and your kind.
I do not need anyone to come in a defend my point of view and I am no apologist on this particluar issue...however you need a whole fucking party to that!



If, if, Guest Vot B** (I won't use that kind of language here) is a Member..!!!!!
of this Forum... your aim here was not to promote a Song...your a Liar and a Bigot. Deal with it and your just a bit pissed off that you and yours have been shown to be....I do however have to say the brainwashing is working well and if I didn't know better I might, might be lead to believe that you actually meant what you just posted here......LOL

You will never win....because you lost this argument when you started this thread..oh and by the way..you lost an Election too.

I wasn't conflicted in any way about how I feel....and have neither the desire or need or wish to discuss your Views...so there was no argument to lose...

Last time I will come into this thread..it smells of Shite...go play with your Hilter Action toy Guest or get some balls and show your Mudcat name.......

off to wash my hands now...oh and just so I can be absolutely sure that YOU ARE offend..

FUCK YOU.

I would not be upset if this thread was closed based on the fact that it is NOT related to Folk Music (even if it is said to be) but to a Political Party that promotes Rascism and Violence. Think of it like the subject box reading: Lyr Add: KKK broadcast Folk Song.

If however my profanity had offended anyone OTHER than B** supporters I again apologize and if that is the case my posts will be deleted by Joe Offer or Max.

I will not however EVER support, endorse or ignore ANY attempts by Rascists to infiltrate a Forum that I enjoy...... I have the right to Free Speech also..and rascism affends me a whole lot more that the use of the word fuck!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,VoteBNP
Date: 23 May 05 - 07:28 AM

Of course this thread was about music. I began it with the lyrics to a song - a folk style song - and thought fellow mudcatters would be interested. It may have got slightly away from this, but then many threads on this forum diverge from the initial posting.
Thanks David for coming on and putting your view across. I wouldn't, however, bother responding though to people who use such language - they are pathetic and when they resort to such expletives, it shows they have just lost the argument.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,brucie
Date: 22 May 05 - 12:35 AM

I would apologize for the language. But this thread is not now nor has it ever been about 'music'. This is about Nazis, pure and simple.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 05 - 09:10 PM

"The more I learn about this trash the more I wanna stick my fingers down my throat and puke. Fuck off."

Jcd, sorry about the cross-post. That fuck off was meant for the British Nazi Party folks AKA British Nationalist Party, same thing.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 05 - 07:27 PM

So BNP stands for British Nazi Party, doesn't it?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 05 - 07:24 PM

The more I learn about this trash the more I wanna stick my fingers down my throat and puke. Fuck off.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,Jcd
Date: 21 May 05 - 07:24 PM

David Hannam posted below -

I'm not going to tell you the BNP has always been perfect, when we know very that is has not, but i am saying that for the last 5 years, specifically under the leadership of Nick Griffin, that small fringe-element of the party has been removed.

Yes Brucie, that is the same Nick Griffin that David holds in such esteem.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 05 - 07:16 PM

On second thought, David, fuck you and Nick Griffin, too.

"Perhaps one day... by being more subtle ... [and] if we tell 'em really what multiculturalism has meant and means for the future, then perhaps one day the British people might change their mind and say that every last one [non-whites] must go." Nick Griffin, Chairman of the BNP, addressing a meeting of the far-right in America including members of the Ku Klux Klan.

"I would like to see at the end of the day that there are none here at all." Nick Griffin, in a BBC Panorama interview.

"Britain does not have the tradition of intellectual fascism which is such a factor in other countries. While I do have a number of proposals to rectify this deficiency, the truth is that this is a handicap which we can never overcome completely." Nick Griffin, at a meeting where he thought he was speaking to the French National Front.

"Burn, burn, burn the paki - ear-ly in the morning." BNP and National Front supporters at a demonstration outside Finsbury Park mosque.

"There was nothing there which was outrageous or evil or inciteful or anything like that." Nick Griffin speaking about a BNP social event he attended where jokes about 'niggers' and the Nazi concentration camps were told.

[The BNP needs to be seen as] "a strong, disciplined organisation with the ability to back-up its slogan 'Rights for Whites' with well directed boots and fists." Nick Griffin

from

http://www.usdaw.org.uk/equality/race_relations/1057257482_24277.html

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 05 - 06:03 PM

http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/N_Alliance.asp?LEARN_Cat=Extremism&LEARN_SubCat=Extremism_in_America&xpicked=3&item=na

More lies, David? I suppose there is no truth to the fact that the BNP has ties to the National Alliance (a right-wing organization in the US), right, David?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,Jcd
Date: 21 May 05 - 06:01 PM

Brucie the BNP knew that their party political campaign would revolve around the 'folk song' for many months. I also remember Josh's posts and believe this site was being targetted, as maybe more folk sites were, to see what level of support lay in the UK folk community. I don't think it is beyond the realms of possibility that Josh is/was David Hannam, or another lackey doing the footwork.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 05 - 05:56 PM

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:hPuGrGueNBsJ:www.socialistworker.co.uk/1796/sw179607.htm+BNP+funding,+england&hl=en

All lies, David?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 05 - 05:49 PM

PS,

There is an interesting dynamic at work with the BNP. Notice that a few folks have been fairly straightforward with them--not naming any names--yet they don't respond in kind. What type of brainwashing does it take to do that? Interesting. Interesting.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 05 - 05:40 PM

Jcd,

Thank you too, and you're most welcome.

I got into it with these guys before on a thread entitled "I am not a racist but I vote BNP". Here is a post I made to that thread on August 17, 2004:

"I lived in Harlem--one block south of 125 Street--in 1967-8. I am white. My neighbours were black. ALL my neighbours were black. For friggin' miles. Everywhere I looked I saw black people. I was very easy to spot in a crowd. Long-haired white hippie with a guitar case. I never had problems.

I lived and taught on an Indian (First Nations, Aboriginal, Indigenous) Reserve in northern Alberta (1987-90 (?)) for three years and ALL my neighbours were red. I was still white. I was very easy to spot in a crowd. I never had problems.

This bullshit the BNP is talking about is just that: bullshit. Racists are rubbish (to borrow a phrase from my friend jOhn). Sleep with the devil and you'll have the devil's child. Don't let those bastards poison your mind. The BNP is trash. Put them and their policies where they belong. Beside the cat in jOhn's dumpster.

The BNP is composed of people who will lie, cheat, say anything they have to to make themselves look worthy of votes. We have that kind of garbage in Alberta also. Mostly we marginalize the fu#kers because they don't deserve a hearing. "The day will come when a man is judged not by the color of his skin but by the conduct of his character." Memorize that. Then learn to live it. You are better than the BNP. Memorize that too, SVP. Make your vote mean something good. And make your choices count. My children have to live in the world your generation is making. Think about that, OK?"

It was addressed to someone named Josh. However, David, allow me to address it to you, also. Like the man said, go peddle your papers somewhere else.

Alba: Love that post.

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Chris Green
Date: 21 May 05 - 05:32 PM

Bloody hell. Thanks Jcd. I am now incandescent (as opposed to pissed-off) about these slimy pieces of shite using the folk tradition to peddle their lies. Dave, you sounded like a reasonable if deluded bolke. You're not. Fuck off.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,Jcd
Date: 21 May 05 - 05:19 PM

Thankyou Alba and brucie for your support. Please open the link to see who you are dealing with regarding David Hannam. It is a safe BBC link.

Go away David.

Just use the drop down menu to find the organiser for Hull, about the ninth entry down.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Alba
Date: 21 May 05 - 04:07 PM

Right with you Brucie...Jed beautifully said. I unfortunately do not have the skill to impart my feelings in such an articulate manner...so I'll say it like I feel it.
I can't believe that these fuckin amoral hate filled bastards have managed to have a thread and a song on the Mudcat.
I despise you all and what you stand for BNP....you can spin it whatever way you like but you are nothing ..nothing but a bunch of racist, violence engouranging...arsewipes...
Go pedal your shit somewhere else...like Antartica...and start a whole new Arian nation in the frozen whitelands were your influence cannot touch the rest of Humanity...everything there is white..should suit you just fine...even the fucking Bears are white there.
oh no my hands even feel dirty even addressing you on a keyboard.
BNP on the Mudcat....what the fuck is going on.
I apologize for my language to the Folks on the Mudcat who know I do not usually use profantity to this degree.
I have witnessed first hand what your aims are...and fucking singing Folk songs around the campfire while protecting the interests of the British people and Vets wasn't what I saw...it was much too bloody for that.
Unfuckinbelievable.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 05 - 03:40 PM

GUEST, Jcd.

You are one heckuva thinker and writer. Bravo.

David, I am a colonial. I do not have Jcd's class or way with words. Personally, I think racist parties are shite, and I also think they should fuck off. Nothin' personal.

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,Jcd
Date: 21 May 05 - 11:37 AM

David thankyou for your replies. I am aware that the BNP is rapidly trying to disassociate itself from the neo nazi image that has pervaded your organization for so long. It is trying desperately to embrace a new kind of charismatic rapport with the voting public.

Your arguments are carefully worded to appeal to those who thrive on knee jerk reaction. However so as to dispel your myths with fact, we need to examine the picture you are trying to portray of the UK.

The public have been shown to wildly over estimate the number of ethnic minorities living in the UK. A recent poll showed that the majority thought a staggering 22.5% of people living in the UK belong to ethnic minority groups. As you know, this figure is actually three times the true figure, gleaned from census returns.

The introduction to the census returns, whereby new categories of ethnic minority groups were listed, the most recent being Irish and Mixed race, inflated the figures. The true figure of ethnic minority groups living in the Uk is approx 9.9%. Of which 1.4% are mixed race, and 1.2% being Irish.

While the BNP may be gaining support in some areas, as you know,s their highest and most consistent support is not from the working class areas, but traditional Tory stronghold villages. The problems you cite within our inner cities are not leading people to vote BNP in such numbers as to provide a viable solution.

I live in London, and feel more qualified than yourself to comment on the problems we face. We are a vastly multi cultural city, approx 32% of London's population are classed as ethnic minorities. The biggest percentage of these ethnic minority groups are also classed as white. Not black or Asian, as the BNP are trying to portray. In fact our biggest ethnic minority groups are Irish, Turkish and Cypriot. Our Asian and Black population within London are growing at the lowest percentage.

The overall growth rate within ethnic minorities, as you also know, stems from natural causes, as in there are more births than deaths. Which in some way is testament to the skill of staff we employ within our NHS system of overseas workers. They fill posts that the NHS could not fill with UK born and bred folk, as they did not posess the skills required or chose not to take the more domestic jobs available. I will not respond to your 'fear' that third world countries are being left to flounder as we poach their people. But perhaps you could tell us how the BNP is actively helping third world countries, to allay your 'fear' for their survival.

I do not doubt that some people are charmed by the BNP's new style concern for the country. But you have to admit that your leadership relies on some grass root thugs to help spread their word. And your leadership has in the past not helped your cause and until that changes, along with your membership policies, the majority of average thinking voters will see through the charm offensive.

In Oldham you used Rob Bennett to canvass door to door, were the BNP unaware he had served five years for his part in the gang rape of two 17 yr old girls? We both know Dave, that they knew perfectly well his past conviction stood.

When Andy Sykes (a former very high profile BNP member) became disillusioned with what he found within your organization, he became a 'mole' for the TUC and proved very successful at dispelling the image that your party tried to portray. The BBC documentary that he helped happen left no doubts what the underlying attitude amongst both your leaders AND grass root supporters were. This was last year Dave, are you trying to tell us that your party has disassociated itself with all of the ideals it followed less than 12 months ago?

A rise in the BNP profile and seat gaining will have the same result it had in the 90's. Then I was as instrumental in campaigning against your party as you are in campaigning for it. Which is why our opinions will never concur. We closed the S.E London HQ then and Derek Breacon lost his seat.

It was too easy to show the integrity or lack of, in those spearheading your campaigns. Because they were fuelled by race hatred and in the end when 'decent' people find out the backgrounds of those campaigning a particular line, they vote with their feet. At the moment the BNP is enjoying a smoke and mirrors existence. But the radical changes you need, to become a credible threat to the UK party political system, involve your members/leaders cleaning up their act to the point where they couldn't exist. In other words your party needs to be seen as whiter than white ( excuse the saying) but your leaders and members do not fall into that category. Being convicted of inciting race hatred amongst other crimes does not make your party membership credible.

Your recent manifesto, while carefully saying that the immigrants here are welcome, also called for a ban on further immigration. Did you include white Australians , Americans, Canadians and New Zealanders as groups to be refused entry? Your party is trying to dissassociate itself with it's colour ban.

Your objection to inter racial relationships, again does not mention colour. Are you equally objectionable to Anglo/Irish marriages?

Your call for the reintroduction of capital punishment and National Service may win a knee jerk support from some quarters. But you then call for all ex serving National service folk to be able to own and house a modern assault rifle. These are not policies that try to address the UK problems in peaceable means.

You claim that cultures can not exist peacably together. That the mix is a recipe for violence. London has hundreds of multi racial festivals every year. The BNP should try and canvass at these festivals, to see how people can merge. The arrests at these events, as you know, are minute, and far less than those at any internationl football match where English supporters are tarred by the mindless violence that a minority are addicted to.

You claim that London, amongst other cities, is a hot bed of Asian/Black versus white violence. This is not the truth Dave, the biggest rise in London crime stems from black on black violence, borne from a growing drug and gun culture. These are social problems, who's roots lie in the poliarising of rich/poor that inner cities are experiencing.

As duelling points out, the biggest threat to your 'average' white person in our inner cities comes from the growing culture of white excessive drinking and the policing problems relating to that are too well documented for me to bore you with.

Instead of fearing difference, I and the majority of Londoners celebrate and embrace it. It is possible to recognise and respect others cultures, while at the same time maintaining your own. It is also educational to recognise our similarities, regardless of race, creed or sexual preference. Hatred is often borne from fear and ignorance. And although the BNP are back pedalling to dish up a more palatable meal, the fact remains that they muddy waters to breed fear amongst those too lazy to seek out the factual truth.

Your recent 'folk song' party political broadcast, was I admit one of your classier moves. You are targetting the area that is by definition most likely to offer support, but in the end Dave, the smoke will disperse and the mirrors will crack and once again you will be met with truth.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,David Hannam BNP
Date: 21 May 05 - 07:13 AM

Sorry JCD, i forgot to say i live in Hull in answer to your question.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,David Hannam BNP
Date: 21 May 05 - 07:09 AM

multiculturalism said:

..."has no-one told you Britain is a nation of immigrants? Culture has never been static, and is constantly informed by meetings with other cultures"

You are quite right, Britain is a nation of immigrants, however, those immigrants were from the same European continent, they all shared the same common ancestry, history, lineage, and practises that other European nations do. Those immigrants shared common ancestry with us, but peoples from the indian continent clearly do not share common bonds with us, and neither do we with them. If we were talking here about India become a minority country due to the indian white population, people would be calling it genocide. We are facing no different here.

Of course multi-cultural Britain is here to stay in some form, but do we really need to be a minority land, i.e where our own people are a minority, to prove our 'Politically-Correct' principles?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 05 - 07:00 AM

In reply to GUEST,Jcd,

"David what are you particularly objecting to in the above statement? Different cultures living in the same neighbourhood? Inter racial relationships? Could you please be specific? Which areas that find cultures 'mixed together' would you like to see eradictaed for the better of the country?" End Quote.

When i refer to Globalist governments wanting to create a mish-mash mixture of all peoples under the sun to eradicate individual ethnics groups, i refer to most forms of mixture. The BNP does not insist that there will be an end to multi-cultural Britain, because quite rightly, many ethnics have settled here, are law-abiding, decent and hard working people. As regards inter-racial relationships, we do believe they are negative simply because all they achieve is the destruction of both individuals inherited heritage. Of course, such relationships will always take place, but if you asked most decent muslims if they would support their children in a mixed-race relationship/marriage, most, if not nearly all, would strongly oppose it.

As for inter-racial neighbourhoods, such an experiment has been a distaster. Go to cities like London, Manchester, Oldham, Burnley, Keighley and Leicester, you will that multi-culturalism has failed. Whites are on one side of the fence, and ethnics are on the other. White thugs attack asians, and asian thugs attack whites. What does this reoccurring situation tell us in practically every major multi-cultural city? It tells us that the various ethnics groups can not live together, simply because we are all interested in preserving each of our own peoples identity. And righfully so.

JCD Wrote:
"Also do you not think it is possible for different cultures to be celebrated and recognised by people living side by side? I would be i
nterested to know in which area of the UK you live"

I think it is possible for different cultures to be equally celebrated/recognized by each side by side, but side by side globally, not the neighbourhood across the road. You say recognised, but if the multi-cultural expermiment shows us anything, none of these ethnics groups will be recognised, simply because they will have all been eradicated by successive globalist governments, who only have the intention of allowing more immigration into Britain to serve big-business fat-cats who want workers for cheap labor.

It is also a disgrace that whilst Labour talk of the benefits of multi-culturalism such as overseas ethnic workers for the NHS, they never stop to think that looting the Third World of precious educated health proffessionals is a disgrace in itself.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 05 - 11:59 PM

"Nice to see David had the guts to come on this practically anonymus forum and say his piece so well."

Nothing anonymous about me. Name is Bruce Murdoch and I live in Hinton, Alberta. I am real easy to find. Fuck you, Jo, thirty-two ways from Tuesday.

'"There were flats for Iraqis and Afghans
But never a one with my name.
I thought that the council would sort it
Til a desk clerk with spiky green hair"

Fix these verses and that is one fine song."'

Also, I posted this. Was on a cookieless day.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,multiculturalism
Date: 20 May 05 - 10:19 PM

My neighbours on one side are an asian family, on the other is an elderly white man married to a black lady. I am white and gay and live with five other white, straight people. Believe it or not, we all get on well, respect each other's cultures and share a common humanity.

Yes, I have encountered anti-white racism, and so have I encountered (much more) anti-black and anti-asian racism. It is a vicious circle where by one group feels persecuted by the other and begins to hate them as a group. These feelings are then reciprocated and hostility develops. If groups like the BNP stopped blaming the inappropriate actions of a small group of people on all of their race, less people would become embittered and reciprocate. In other words, no racism = no racism!

As for our British culture, has no-one told you Britain is a nation of immigrants? Culture has never been static, and is constantly informed by meetings with other cultures. If you are influenced by Bob Dylan and Louden Wainwright you are having your English culture corrupted by American influences - shock horror! Indeed American culture is a far stronger influence on British culture than any minority black or asian influence. So you go live in your isolation pod called Britain only listening to music written before we discovered France (or Ireland at that) and started being affected by 'foreign' influences (and certainly nothing from after when those Normans invaded).

I'll live in the real world, aware and proud of the music of my ancestors, but equally enthused by the exciting new places multiculturalism is taking British music: Welsh rap, garage and British bhangra are all uniquely British musics with their own customs informed both by foreign musics and their British origins. These can exist happily alongside traditional British folk musics in all of their myriad forms and only make our culture richer.

The BNPs policies are deeply flawed, racist and reactionary. I would hope people can see beyond notions of colour and race to see human beings who's contributions to British culture are refreshing and important in a free world where different races will inevitably live side by side.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Chris Green
Date: 20 May 05 - 08:47 PM

And by the way, when I hear this song being sung by people in folk clubs who've never heard of Dave and credit the song as "trad" then AND ONLY THEN does it (in my opinion) merit inclusion in the DT!

PS - I've heard it sung nowhere so far! PM me when you do!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Chris Green
Date: 20 May 05 - 08:20 PM

Dave, I read your last post with interest. You were doing so well until the last paragraph! I found myself agreeing with some of what you said, particularly about the Empire. I agreed wholeheartedly with you about politics at the moment being obsessed with the past, instead of what this country could be.

Then we come to paragragh four. "Believe it or not, the BNP is not a racist (party)." Well frankly, my dear sir, bollocks. The BNP IS a racist party. I should know, because they canvassed me in the recent election. I spoke to the candidate at length and came away with the distinct impression that the pants I was wearing had a better grasp of the reality around them than he did.

I live in Coventry, and if you were to separate everyone whose parents were immigrants (including myself) from the pure-bred "English" stock you'd reduce a city of 300,000 to a city of around 1000, surrounded by a ghetto of 299,000 pissed-off people whose jobs make the city work. They tried that in South Africa. It was a resounding failure.

Finally to the last paragraph - you're right I fear to walk the streets I grew up in. However, it's mainly because of pissed-up white blokes trying to pick fights with me because I've been looking at their pint or spilled their girl (or something, hey, who needs an excuse when you've decided you're going to beat the shit out of some poor sod?) I've been in several fights in the City Centre and NONE of them have been with black or Asian blokes, but always with the same white-power fuckwits that you (misguidedly, in my opinion)endorse.

Sincerely

Chris

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,CDarklock
Date: 20 May 05 - 04:30 PM

Does it strike anyone as hypocritical that certain people are saying "don't save this" because they don't like it?

I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but I thought the purpose of the DT was to record lyrics that might otherwise be lost. Wouldn't UNPOPULAR lyrics be in the greatest danger? Shouldn't they actually be *preferred* over lyrics that meet with wide approval and are frequently performed?

As far as an end to ethnic identity, anyone who has trouble maintaining their ethnic identity has a pretty weak one in the first place. Look at Jews. We live in a world that is over 90 percent gentile, we're scattered to the winds, and yet we are in no real danger of losing our ethnic identity. What are the rest of you worried about?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,Jcd
Date: 20 May 05 - 03:38 PM

The globalist governments that oversee this nation, and much of the western world would like to see nothing short of a complete mish-mash of all peoples mixed together! The result? The end to a world with ethnic/cultural identity.

David what are you particularly objecting to in the above statement? Different cultures living in the same neighbourhood? Inter racial relationships? Could you please be specific? Which areas that find cultures 'mixed together' would you like to see eradictaed for the better of the country?

Also do you not think it is possible for different cultures to be celebrated and recognised by people living side by side? I would be interested to know in which area of the UK you live.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,David Hannam BNP
Date: 20 May 05 - 03:21 PM

Duelling,

Yes fair point. The BNP is certainly not an imperialist party. We do not support a colonial system, however, neither do we feel the British people should have to feel eternally guilty about the empire that has now diminished. I am both proud and often ashamed about our past as a nation.

I, nor the BNP wishes to return to a 'traditional' way of life, which can mean a man could be hung for stealing bread simply to feed his family. When we say return to a British way of life, we of course refer to the more decent aspects of our civillisation, such as justice, democracy, truth, freedom and identity. Of course we have never attained to these ideals perfectly in the past, but the BNP feels that more than ever, our freedoms are been eroded, our rights as a people are been removed, hence the recent implemented tax on public gatherings, which has utterly crushed some traditional folk gatherings for instance.

When the BNP says we are patriotic, we are patriotic not for what we have been in the past, not for what we are in the present, but for what this country should, could attain to in the future. That said, we are proud of our past in many ways too, we are proud, as am i, that my grandfather served in the second world war and helped defeat the invading Nazi's from reaching these shores. There is much to be proud of too.

Believe it or not, the BNP is not a racist. I for one not would associate myself with the BNP if they were. I am not going to say we are perfect, the BNP has made mistakes in the long-distant past, but thankfully that element has been soundly kicked out.

I understand you say we preach division...however, when you have, like myself, spoke to young girls in west yorkshire as young as 11 who have been gang raped in an anti-white racist epidemic of racist brutal rape and assault by local young asian thugs, then i think it is reasonable to ask for seperation.

We have a situation in this country where in many cities indigineous Britons are now a minority, and fear to walk the streets that are now so alien to them. The BNP believes not only by preserving our way of life and identity, we also will hel preserve other peoples way of life and identity. The globalist governments that oversee this nation, and much of the western world would like to see nothing short of a complete mish-mash of all peoples mixed together! The result? The end to a world with ethnic/cultural identity.

Best regards

David

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Chris Green
Date: 20 May 05 - 02:21 PM

Dave - thank you for replying. Your reply, I must admit, cooled me off a bit and did make me consider some points that I hadn't considered before. However, if you honestly think that by supporting the BNP you are championing a return to a "British way of life" (which historically means shooting people and nicking their countries) then you are, to put it mildly, deluded. If you are really concerned about the social problems that blight this country (and God knows they do) I urge you to find a better cause to ally yourself (and you talents, if I may say so) than with a party that preaches division and hatred based on the colour of a person's skin, sexual orientation or creed. People like that have solved nothing in the past, as you may have gleaned if you've been following the recent VE day celebrations.

Sincerely

Chris

PS: GUEST of 20th May, 09:46 - I don't usually reply to trolls, but for you I'll make an exception. You know fuck all about me, my politics or anything else under the sun. Take a crash course in spelling and then go and piss up a rope.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,David Hannam BNP
Date: 20 May 05 - 02:03 PM

Many thanks for your replies of support. I think your responses are indicative of the general response i have recieved from the folk public, some for, some against, and some are sceptical, which i think is fair enough.

As regards my 'conviction', it is true i was convicted for inciting 'racial hatred'. However, i would ask all who are interested to read the true facts of this case. I was 17 at the time, and i made the crucial mistake of trusting an elder member of the then pre-Nick Griffin BNP, and trusting this elder member got me into much trouble. That member was expelled for distributing leaflets in my name without actually informing me. I'm not going to tell you the BNP has always been perfect, when we know very that is has not, but i am saying that for the last 5 years, specifically under the leadership of Nick Griffin, that small fringe-element of the party has been removed.

To be really honest, that incident is the biggest regret of my life. Most people who know me, find the idea of me been anti-semetic laughable, as indeed it is. On a lighter note, not to mention my rather fanatical following of Leonard Cohen and Bob Dylan when both on tour.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Piers
Date: 20 May 05 - 12:16 PM

"The BBC documentary Secret Agent has sent shock waves through the BNP. Undercover reporter, Jason Gwynne, infiltrated the BNP in Bradford.He revealed a group racked by what lawyers have described as criminal levels of racism, violence and anti Semitism. During the programme, The Secret Agent, one prospective council candidate repeatedly says he wants to kill "Pakis"; another admits he has spent three weeks pushing dog excrement through the letterbox of an Asian business; and a third is filmed plotting to torch a van the party believes is storing anti-BNP leaflets produced by the TUC. This underlines again their sham attempt to portray themselves as a normal democratic party. During the programme Mr Griffin, who has been convicted of incitement to racial hatred, tells cheering supporters that Islam is a "wicked, vicious faith" and that the Qur'an tells Muslims it is acceptable to rape white women and children. John Tyndall, the BNP's founder and former leader, is seen giving a speech in which he calls Michael Howard Michael Hecht - a reference to the Tory leader's Jewish background - after Mr Howard described the BNP as "thugs in suits". The BNP's former Bradford organiser Andy Sykes, turned anti racist mole when he was told to organise to attack TUC members or labour people or left wingers at a fun day organised by Bradford TUC. Hecontacted Bradford TUC, spoke to Searchlight and began to work as a "mole". Despite death threats he courageously insists he and his family will stay in their home in Bradford." From TUFS 13.


Attacking TUC members! - This is the party that purports to look after 'hard working normal people (unless they are perceptibly foreign)'.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,Jo
Date: 20 May 05 - 11:56 AM

I'm a folk fan who will now be voting BNP, without a doubt. Nice to see David had the guts to come on this practically anonymus forum and say his piece so well.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,VoteBNP
Date: 20 May 05 - 10:07 AM

A political/free speech crime. Did you know you can actually be jailed for telling the TRUTH in this supposedly 'free' country. See http://www.bnp.org.uk/news_detail.php?newsId=263 for the details of BNP leader Nick Griffin's recent unfair court appearance.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Piers
Date: 20 May 05 - 09:56 AM

Hannam may reject the label of racist but a jury of his peers found him guilty of distributing material likely to incite racial hatred.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/programmes/2001/bnp_special/membership/organisers/david_hannam.stm

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,cissco & sonny & ledbelly to.
Date: 20 May 05 - 09:46 AM

i have seen david play.great singer/songwriter;has for u u piece of shit you'd sing about your wife being raped for people to feel sorry for u. i suppose you would tell the rapist just what you thought of him or them.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,Jo
Date: 20 May 05 - 09:25 AM

Well said David Hannam! I'm glad you've come on the forum and given your opinion. It's interesting to hear what you've to say. For far too long have the 'left-wing' been prevalent in the folk scene. Let's hope the winds of change are coming........

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 May 05 - 07:39 AM

But don't you think the tune sounds like Donovan's "The Gipsy Boy and I"?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,David Hannam BNP
Date: 20 May 05 - 06:21 AM

My name is David Hannam, and i am the individual who sang on the recent BNP PPB, i.e Corporal Fox.

I have on occasion peeped to have a look at the debates/discussions etc on the issue of the folk song that has got many of you interested, or concerned about why the BNP embraces folk music.

Firstly, i myself have been an avid folk music fan since i could mutter a note. My father, Philip Hannam, is a Hull Folk/Protest Singer of many years. My main influence as a child was listening to Bob Dylan and Louden Wainwright.

I would like to reply to duellingbouzoukis who seemed to imply that no-one had ever seen me singing at one of your local folk clubs? What duelling actually said was:

"Has anyone out there actually seen Mr Hannam at their local folk club? If so, did the song reduce you or anyone around you to tears? Or is this another example of far-right "we're just like you underneath the black uniform" bullshit? End Quote.

Very true, you probably haven't seen me at many of your thousands of folk clubs, mainly because i generally play to a Hull/East Riding audience, except when playing elsewhere supporting the British National Party. The only people i recall reducing to tears on occasions i have sang Corporal Fox was ex-forces individuals who usually remarked that the song was very similar to the songs they sing in the barracks at various stations in the globe.

No, this is not another example of, "We're just like you underneath the black uniform". I have been singing folk music for many years before i became active within the BNP, and i was the natural choice to   try to spearhead a resurgance of folk interest amongst firstly our membership, and secondly to take that interest out to the wider public.

Now, as for the last remark by duelling:

"If Mr H turns up at any folk club I'm playing at, I'll have no hesitation in telling him precisely what I think of having the English folk tradition hijacked by a bunch of racist scumbags. Although, being as this IS the BNP I may have to use words of one syllable!" End Quote

Firstly, i reject the label of racist. I am not a racist, and coming from a family background of protest/folk, it has been instilled in me quite early on in my life to respect all peoples, whatever their background, colour or creed may be. I also believe that other cultures should respect the British way of life, though that way of life now so little resembles any semblance of decency. Does loving ones own ancestry make me a racist? Does wanting a fair deal for indigenous Britons who have been discrimated against make me a racist? Does standing up against the anti-white racist murders of white people make me a racist? Of course not. Racism, in any form is abhorrant, but wanting to preserve something of ones own culture does not make us racist, it makes us human.

Secondly,Duelling, if i do happen to meet you one day, and you do feel the need to call me a 'scumbag', then so be it; such an attitude is lost on me. I have sat many folk sessions amongst people who many of them i am sure were of a different political persuasion! Did i make an issue out of that difference? No, of course not, because i believe that everyone should be entitled to their opinion.

Thanks for reading anyway,

David Hannam

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,Stevie D
Date: 15 May 05 - 01:44 PM

I wonder what the BNP would say about the gurkhas not getting equal pension, or the right to live in the country they serve. i thought the song was well played, sung and recorded, but i thought the lyrical content was the work of a 5 year old, even then, Nick Griffin is a better song writer than he is a politician.

If politics was painting by numbers, the BNP would use a roller.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 05 - 03:51 PM

"There were flats for Iraqis and Afghans
But never a one with my name.
I thought that the council would sort it
Til a desk clerk with spiky green hair"

Fix these verses and that is one fine song.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Raedwulf
Date: 13 May 05 - 03:59 PM

Annie - I don't give a damn why you quoted the full poem. The full poem shows why the extract was a twisted misquote. You can agree with BNP as much as you want, but if you think that poem supports that point of view, you're as much of a fool as he is.

I don't doubt you'd call yourself a patriot (funny how you capitalise it & I don't, ain't it?), but many would call you a bigot. Oh, & since I'm busy lecturing you on the English language, I never said Kipling claimed to be a patriot, nor did I suggest that he said he was Indian. But he knew the Indian people intimately, he loved them, & on the whole he never unequivocally said he thought they were worth less than the British/whites.

Whereas your prejudices are clear right through your posts.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Raedwulf
Date: 13 May 05 - 03:42 PM

A country, BI, is a recognisable social grouping, generally along the lines of race, culture, or some other common denominator. And yes, it matters to very many of the species, because the species is a social one whether you (or others) like it or not. If you're not, you're an exception. Maybe you're the future too, but it's a way off. I'm afraid mankind's social development lags behind the technological by some margin!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 13 May 05 - 02:21 PM

I hate patriotism. What's a country anyway? Just lines on a map, marked out in bloodshed...it doesn't mean anything...

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,VoteBNP
Date: 13 May 05 - 11:36 AM

If you look at any BNP literature we do not blame the immigrants themselves - the BNP emphasises the fact that they are not to be blamed but the governent/Blair etc and many more before him are. That is with whom we have problems and against which we are fighting.

But you are right this has gone off the topic of the original lyrics (then again so do many other threads). If anyone wants to comment on them please do so. General feedback has been pretty good (from other places/folkies too) apart from a few 'flying insults' (sticks and stones....)

Thanks

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 05 - 11:33 AM

So why do people who are, say, african, pakistani, chinese etc. claim to be British just because they are born here?

Too funny and about the intellectual level associated with the BNP. Poor scared Annie.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,SPB - Acton
Date: 13 May 05 - 11:17 AM

I think this thread is now completely off topic, and no longer realtes to music traditions, but I intend to add my 2 pennorth worth . sorry.......

1) BNP get support by preying on peoples fears and reinforcing mis-information. For example the accusation of immigrants and asylum seekers taking homes away. The more relevant question is who is responsible for the massive decline in social housing stock through sales of council housing and legislation to prevent local authorities replace social housing during the 80s. Who has forced the housing prices up over the last 20 years so that more and more people are competing for less and less housing. It is a structural and economic problem.

2)Do BNP really have workable economic and social policies? How many votes would they have got if they were opening campaigning on their views of spreading hatred. Basic argument: you should fear xyz minority i the community. Give us the power to 'get rid' of the convient scapegoat - hmmmm does anyone remember Bosnia?? or even Germany in the 1930s? Then what about the other side of the argument.
The problem is structural ...... it doesn't go away . no more asylum seekers left to blame . who to victimise next ........... the situation must be serious enough ........ apply controls, maybe state of emergency........... more parrallels in history and Animal Farm for good measure.

Yes, ask why there are not enough homes for heroes, but don't blame it on the poorest in society who are competing with the other poorest in society who are competing for the crumbs.

We do not have a strong neo-nazi movement in this country. If BNP prey on fears, think of how much more frightening their next step would be.

On original thread.... songs should be used to highlight inequalities, but when a song goes on to blame the innocent then a line has been crossed.

Again sorry for my incoherent thoughts which have little to do with music but this thread has touched a nerve

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 13 May 05 - 07:43 AM

Not compared to the Lib-dems you don't. I may not agree with their policies, but it's quite hard to activley dislike them, unlike the BNP.

And by the way, I'm sure the SNP might just have got more than 200,00 votes, or 0.74% of the UK wide vote. Or are the Scottish too foreign to count?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,VoteBNP
Date: 13 May 05 - 06:32 AM

The money comes from membership subs and donations. You think of the people supporting the BNP - how much more motivated we are than supporters of other parties - we work our backsides off for the BNP and give as much time/money and effort as we can possibly afford. I think we achieve amazing results for the resources we have. It's pure dedication and willpower that gets us there.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Fiona
Date: 13 May 05 - 06:23 AM

From the Beeb website,

'The BNP's share of the UK vote was about 0.74% - below exit poll expectations of about 3%.

It lost its £500 deposit in 84 seats, leaving it with a bill of about £42,000 overall.'

Where on earth do they get the money from?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,VoteBNP
Date: 13 May 05 - 06:14 AM

The BNP got over 200,000 votes at the general election and even though we did not anyone elected (very difficult with the first past the post system plus all the media propaganda against us) we are officially the fourth party in the UK after the 'big' three (which are all the same) beating the Greens (the BNP is the real Green Party: see
http://www.bnp.org.uk/landandpeople/index.htm) and the UKIP/Veritas (false patriots)

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Piers
Date: 13 May 05 - 05:56 AM

If you love your country and are proud of your nation you do not love other countries and are not proud of other nations. As countries/nations are arbitary divisions of land and the people thereon, partiots love and are proud of some people purely because of where they live - patriots are odious bigots, and damn fools to boot for believing in such nonsense. Patriotism is an ideological prop to the ruling classes - don't hate those who boss you around and live off your backs they are British or Irish or Swazi or whatever, hate those who live on the other side of that line that we have drawn, despite the fact they are bossed around and exploited like you they are foreign and dirty and you have nothing in common with them, they say.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 13 May 05 - 05:45 AM

Here we go again, the old bigot/patriot debate so beloved by our American chums on the Iraq/Bush threads. As a bemused outsider, I would be interested to know just how many people voted BNP at the election. Does anybody know the answer?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,Annie
Date: 13 May 05 - 05:31 AM

No - Patriotism is when you love your country and are proud of your nation.
Bigotry is when you think your own opinion is so completely correct and better than everyone elses.
Being a Patriot is not being a bigot. Bigotry is a negative term - Patriot is not.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Piers
Date: 13 May 05 - 05:25 AM

Patriotism is the belief that the inhabitants of one nation are better in some way than the inhabitants of somewhere else - bigotry pure and simple.

Subject: Lyr Add: GUNGA DIN (Rudyard Kipling)
From: Fiona
Date: 13 May 05 - 05:18 AM

I think 'Gunga Din' is one of Kiplings finest.

You may talk o' gin and beer
When you're quartered safe out 'ere,
An' you're sent to penny-fights an' Aldershot it;
But when it comes to slaughter
You will do your work on water,
An' you'll lick the bloomin' boots of 'im that's got it.
Now in Injia's sunny clime,
Where I used to spend my time
A-servin' of 'Er Majesty the Queen,
Of all them blackfaced crew
The finest man I knew
Was our regimental bhisti, Gunga Din.
      He was "Din! Din! Din!
You limpin' lump o' brick-dust, Gunga Din!
      Hi! slippery hitherao!
      Water, get it! Panee lao!             [Bring water swiftly.]
You squidgy-nosed old idol, Gunga Din."

The uniform 'e wore
Was nothin' much before,
An' rather less than 'arf o' that be'ind,
For a piece o' twisty rag
An' a goatskin water-bag
Was all the field-equipment 'e could find.
When the sweatin' troop-train lay
In a sidin' through the day,
Where the 'eat would make your bloomin' eyebrows crawl,
We shouted "Harry By!"         

Till our throats were bricky-dry,
Then we wopped 'im 'cause 'e couldn't serve us all.
      It was "Din! Din! Din!
You 'eathen, where the mischief 'ave you been?
      You put some juldee in it                         [Be quick.]
      Or I'll marrow you this minute                      [Hit you.]

If you don't fill up my helmet, Gunga Din!"

'E would dot an' carry one
Till the longest day was done;
An' 'e didn't seem to know the use o' fear.
If we charged or broke or cut,
You could bet your bloomin' nut,
'E'd be waitin' fifty paces right flank rear.
With 'is mussick on 'is back,                           [Water-skin.]
'E would skip with our attack,
An' watch us till the bugles made "Retire",
An' for all 'is dirty 'ide
'E was white, clear white, inside
When 'e went to tend the wounded under fire!
      It was "Din! Din! Din!"
With the bullets kickin' dust-spots on the green.
      When the cartridges ran out,
      You could hear the front-files shout,
"Hi! ammunition-mules an' Gunga Din!"

I shan't forgit the night
When I dropped be'ind the fight
With a bullet where my belt-plate should 'a' been.
I was chokin' mad with thirst,
An' the man that spied me first
Was our good old grinnin', gruntin' Gunga Din.
'E lifted up my 'ead,
An' he plugged me where I bled,
An' 'e guv me 'arf-a-pint o' water-green:
It was crawlin' and it stunk,
But of all the drinks I've drunk,
I'm gratefullest to one from Gunga Din.
      It was "Din! Din! Din!
'Ere's a beggar with a bullet through 'is spleen;
      'E's chawin' up the ground,
      An' 'e's kickin' all around:
For Gawd's sake git the water, Gunga Din!"

'E carried me away
To where a dooli lay,
An' a bullet come an' drilled the beggar clean.
'E put me safe inside,
An' just before 'e died,
"I 'ope you liked your drink", sez Gunga Din.
So I'll meet 'im later on
At the place where 'e is gone --
Where it's always double drill and no canteen;
'E'll be squattin' on the coals
Givin' drink to poor damned souls,
An' I'll get a swig in hell from Gunga Din!
      Yes, Din! Din! Din!
You Lazarushian-leather Gunga Din!
      Though I've belted you and flayed you,
      By the livin' Gawd that made you,
You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!

The last line says it all really,

Fiona

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,Annie
Date: 13 May 05 - 04:52 AM

Why are "Patriotism and bigotry are the same thing" Piers? Please explain your theory.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Piers
Date: 13 May 05 - 04:29 AM

Patriotism and bigotry are the same thing.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 13 May 05 - 04:29 AM

Hey, that makes me 'first nation' then doesn't it? A bit like the new 'native american' instead of the old 'red indian'

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,Annie
Date: 13 May 05 - 04:20 AM

I was posting it to actually reiterate what VoteBNP was saying. No Kipling was not a bigot - niether am I. I would call myself a Patriot, like Kipling, and I can see many of my views reflected in the BNP, though i'm not a member of the said party.

You say Kipling was born in India - but he was an Englishman through and through - I bet he never claimed to be 'Indian' did he? So why do people who are, say, african, pakistani, chinese etc. claim to be British just because they are born here? If a dog is born in a stable it does not make it a horse does it? If they are as British as we are, does that make us, ethnic British people, as African, pakistani, chinese etc. as they are?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Raedwulf
Date: 12 May 05 - 01:52 PM

Thank you, Annie, for posting the whole poem. As a lover of Kipling (one of the finest writers in the the English language), I hate seeing his words twisted & taken out of context.

Kipling was a patriot ("I love my country, but..."), not a bigot ("We're better than you..."). Unfortunately, 19 times out of 20, the bigot can misquote the patriot for his own ends, & at the same time smear the patriot at least 4 times out of 5, without even wanting to, or realising (or, probably, caring) that they have.

So well done BNP, you're a prat. The Stranger is no more a poem "standing against multi-racialism", than "Tommy" is pro- or anti- army. It's just a perceptive comment upon what the poet saw when it was written. Not the whole story, nor his stated personal opinion, simply something to make you stop & think (assuming you have the native wit to be able to manage such...).

In case you're completely stupid, BNP, Kipling was born in India, spent a significant part of his life in India, & I doubt he'd be the slightest bit impressed with the views that your party espouses. Despite his sometimes rather misty-eyed eulogising of the virtues of the British Empire, I strongly suspect he'd be more or less horrified to find his words being warped to support the not-so-subtle policies that the average BNP supporter would like to see in place.

And I've just finished reading 1984, too...

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 05 - 08:55 AM

Don't get it, what stranger? BNP shit, get back to the hole you came from

Subject: Lyr Add: THE STRANGER (Rudyard Kipling)
From: GUEST,Annie
Date: 12 May 05 - 06:18 AM

Here's the whole poem VoteBNP - one of my faves!

THE STRANGER
The stranger within my gate,
He may be true or kind,
But he does not talk my talk -
I cannot feel his mind.
I see his face and the eyes and the mouth,
But not the soul behind.

The men of my own stock,
They may do ill or well,
But they tell the lies I am wonted to,
They are used to the lies I tell;
And we do not need interpreters
When we go to buy or sell.

The stranger within my gates,
He may be evil or good,
But I can not tell what powers control -
What reasons sway his mood;
Nor when the Gods of his far-off land
Shall repossess his blood.

The men of my own stock,
Bitter bad they may be,
But at least they hear the things I hear,
And see the things I see;
And what ever I think of them and their likes
They think of the likes of me.

This was my father's belief
And this is also mine:
Let the corn be all one sheaf -
And the grapes be all one vine,
Ere our children's teeth are set on edge
By bitter bread and wine.

Rudyard Kipling 1865-1936

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,VoteBNP
Date: 12 May 05 - 05:58 AM

Well said guest Andym! There are a lot of 'political' type songs both trad and more recent critising the current way of thinking. But when it's a song standing against multi-racialism it gets shouted down. This is supposed to be a land of free speech. Anyway, it is our country - our beautiful heritage that is being destroyed.


Let the corn be all one sheaf -
And the grapes be all one vine,
Ere our children's teeth are set on edge
By bitter bread and wine.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 May 05 - 06:03 AM

It is in a different class not least because the law of the UK and the USA says so.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,Andym
Date: 11 May 05 - 05:45 AM

"2.   Incitement to racial hatred is in a different class to most other speech. "

Why?

In the days of Gallileo, the Church told scientists, you can reserach whatever you want but don't find anything out that contradicts the rulings and dogmas of the Church. Galileo did not only discover something but he had the nerve to publish it.

A system that sets certain bounds, and says certain topics are off-limit is not truly free. Many people have been tortured and died for the right to speak freely. In many parts of the world this barbarism still continues today. So why should anybody living in a free country voluntarily forfeit this right in order not to offend certain oversensitive individuals?

Freedom of expression must stand above the sensitivities of certain groups. If I'm not allowed to offend ethnic minorities, then I shouldn't be allowed to offend religious minorities. I shouldn't be allowed to tell jokes about lawyers or politicians. All these could be interpreted as incitements to hate. A statement of fact or of opinion, even if slanted or incomplete cannot be an incitement to hatred. It is part of a debate about certain topics. Anybody who resorts to violence because of such a statement probably would have resorted to violence anyhow. I haven't seen any sudden increase in racial crime following the release of this song. Let's not see daemons where there aren't any.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 May 05 - 12:23 PM

1.   Maybe this link will work

http://www.victoriacross.net/facts.asp

2.   Incitement to racial hatred is in a different class to most other speech.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,Andym
Date: 10 May 05 - 09:00 AM

Why should certain phrases, such as 'Iraquis and Afghans' in this context become taboos in music?

Folk music has long been a vehicle of criticism of the political ruling class and of exposing injustice. We all applaud when we hear the criticism we like, but stand aghast when the wind if criticism turns the other way.

Please grow up and accept that speech and music can only be free if it can be uncomofortable.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Raedwulf
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 02:48 PM

Richard - that statement is not on the page that you link to, nor on an immediately obvious cascade. On the basis of your blicky, the chances of surviving a VC act are at least 50% (& that's post WWII, the 'eyewitness' requirements have tended to go up over the years).

Bunnah - PM noted. I wasn't having a personal go, but I felt your statement was displaying bias not supported by your 'facts'. AFAIK no political party has commented on the bravery of Pte Beharry. It is poor debating, therefore, to try to claim that any lack of comment is evidence of bias; whichever way, by whatever party.

The BNP may well be inherently racist shitbags (I certainly wouldn't vote for them, as you may have gathered!). They're not inherently racist shitbags because they didn't praise Pte Beharry, especially when no other party bothered to. Your post is faulty at best.

Regards,

R

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 02:23 PM

Oops

"It has been estimated that the chance of surviving a Victoria Cross act is 1 in 10." is a quote fromthe official VIctoria Cross website.

Victoria Cross website

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 02:13 PM

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Raedwulf
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 12:50 PM

"Such is the level of courage required for the award that it is estimated the chances of surviving an act worthy of the medal are one in ten."

Ummmm... If the BNP were the only political party on the ballot paper I would spoil (possibly quite literally, hooray for polling booth curtains! ;-) ), but the above statement implies that 90% of VC awards are posthumous. Which is a bigger load of bollocks than any rubbish I've ever heard the BNP spout. Also, I've seen that BBC report, but not seen any comment (negative or otherwise) from the BNP about Pte Beharry.

So perhaps next time, Bunnah, you might do better than to start a post with a question ("Wonder what the BNP would say about this one") & finish with a statement (What more proof of how mindless the BNP are could anyone want). Or at least provide some evidence to link your conclusion to your premise.

The BNP may be scum (I prefer to think of them as mostly well-meaning but misguided bloody idiots), but on the basis of what you've just posted, you would appear to be as bigoted as they are.

I am against bigotry, whatever political stripe it claims to wear!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 12:12 PM

Well said, Fiona. The decency of a person, and the way a person should be treated, should not be predetermined or judged on the basis of race.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Piers
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 12:11 PM

These minority groups, etc. arise precisely because cheeky monkeys like you discriminate between people in the workplace, in politics and socially for a reason that I cannot fathom.

Even if you attempted to use 'race' in a scientific way (which to apply to humans because of the diversity and constant interbreeding means setting arbitary limits to the definition, it is thus a measurement dependent on human judgement, not independent of it i.e. scientific) differences between 'racial' groups that affect social behaviour are non-existent - precisely because the major determinant of human social behaviour is experience not pre-ordained by genetics or God.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,Vote BNP
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 11:29 AM

You are discriminating against the BNP. What about the 'Black Police Officers Assoc" or the MOBO awards? There are loads of things, pressure groups, organistions, charities, etc. which are just for ethnic minorities. Why is it so terrible to say we are for White people? BTW it is not just 'skin colour' at all. Race covers a wide range of things (ie. physiology, genetics etc), skin colour is just the visible one.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Piers
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 10:51 AM

Perhaps people think the BNP's ideas are filthy because they think it is filthy to discriminate against people on basis of skin colour, where they were born or the legalistic definition of nationality thay have been given, or indeed on any basis at all.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 09:36 AM

Well something's obviously upset you Emma. Calm down for a minute and try to be rational. Why are the BNP's ideas so "filthy". What is it that so offends you?

We don't "use these issues to further our cause" and we certainly don't "piss on" anyone's legacy. We have loads of ex-serviceman in the BNP supporting us. In fact I was at a meeting the other night where one of our candidates was speaking and a 92 year old ex-RAF pilot went up to her and said that he supported everything she said and that he was willing to have his photo with her for a BNP leaflet.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Fiona
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 05:54 AM

Guest,

I think your policies are utterly despicable, but I believe in free speach even when I'm vomiting rings round myself at the words of the speakers.

I think it even more despicable that you see fit to use the issues of homeless ex-servicemen to further your cause. When I was a child there were planty of what we then called tramps who were ex servicemen who had never returned to 'normal 'life in the wake of the war. I was always told that though I was to keep my distance, I'd have my arse tanned if I treated them with disrespect. There are genuine concerns surrounding the treatment and care of these men, but to use their plight to further your own filthy ideas shows that you're more concerned with pursuing your own agenda than their troubles. Do you feel the same about the black ones or the ghurkas? I very much doubt it. Homeless exservicemane are not on the streets because asylum seekers are in the houses and well you know that.

As for your song, theres plenty of songs folk and otherwise which spread lies and hate, if you think you're being original you're wrong.

And yes it does say a lot about our country today. It says the men who fought and died for our freedom have left us a legacy that some of us value and you lot piss on.

Fiona

sorry for the rant to everyone who doesn't espouse the BNP view I'm not in a good mood today and this doesn't help.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,Vote BNP
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 05:17 AM

We're getting off the subject a bit of the actual song. I think it's a really good one and says a lot about our country today. I think the brave men who fought and died in two world wars must be turning in their graves. They fought to keep Britain free from foreign invasion...... and what have we got today?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Morris-ey
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 09:30 AM

It's a well known fact that BNP members and supporters are repressed homosexuals.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,manitas
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 08:13 AM

Grab wrote:
Bullshit. Immigrants are currently being housed in what are essentially prisons.

Grab,
That's bullshit as well. I can poke my head out of my front door to see the truth of that. What you should have said was that some aslyum seekers etc...

Come to that I'll ask the chaps (and chappesses) around the office if any of them are living in prisons.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: rich-joy
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 06:41 AM

" ... I don't think any British workers fought for the bosses in Vietnam, but they did fight in Korea ..."


Well Piers, if you were British and happened to reside in Australia at the time of the Vietnam War conscription and your number came up in the Birthday ballot - you went, as did my Scouser brother-in-law ...


Cheers! R-J

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: sapper82
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 03:53 AM

To Bunnahabhain
He seems an excellent lad, looks and sounds like someone I'd be proud to serve or work alongside!
And some elements of the BNP leadership would throw him out??????

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 05:15 PM

Wonder what the BNP would say about this one...

Black british soldier gets VC-BBC news

Today the queen awarded the first Victoria Cross to a living soldier since 1969. The BNP would be praising him, except he happens to be black.

Pte Johnson Beharry, honoured for his actions in Iraq, became the twelfth recipient of the award since the end of World War II.

The Victoria Cross, awarded for gallantry, is the highest honour in the British and Commonwealth military. Such is the level of courage required for the award that it is estimated the chances of surviving an act worthy of the medal are one in ten.

What more proof of how mindless the BNP are could anyone want?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Piers
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 11:39 AM

This paper reports higher mortality rates among Vietnam Veterans, but reports of the
actual numbers vary between half and three times as many who were killed in combat. For the Falklands it seems to be true that more have taken their own lives since than had their lives taken from them, and there is a suggestion of high suicide rate amongst Gulf War I Veterans.
I don't think any British workers fought for the bosses in Vietnam, but they did fight in Korea.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Cllr
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 10:14 AM

No bnp are not related to the silly party Or the monster raving loony party. I've always had great respect for the late screaming lord Sutch while I have none-what-so-ever for the BNP. cllr

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 09:20 AM

Don:
I read somewhere that more Vietnam veterans have committed suicide, than were killed in that war.

Sounds totally bogus. I don't know how many Brits went to Vietnam, but over 40,000 US servicemen died there.

Meanwhile, are the BNP related to the "Silly" party or the "Extremely Silly" party?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Grab
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 08:58 AM

Yes, this *is* racist bollocks.

"There were flats for Iraqis and Afghans/But never a one with my name."

Bullshit. Immigrants are currently being housed in what are essentially prisons. Some have rioted to protest against the conditions in there. A recent "hidden camera" documentary shows how these places are run.

Now certainly ex-squaddies have had a raw deal in the past (and today - think Gulf War Syndrome), but this isn't the fault of immigrants. Partly it's the fault of the Army for not providing backup and retraining when soldiers go back to civvie life; partly it's the fault of employers who don't know what soldiers can do for them; and partly it's the fault of ex-soldiers who can't see that they can't treat other employees like lower-ranking soldiers, or who expect to have their lives run for them in the same way the Army did. Immigrants are *nowhere* on the list of people responsible for ex-squaddies failing to adjust to Civvie Street.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 08:45 AM

Sorry, misread it!
Mind you, if it were the Channel Islands, they might get my vote....

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 08:38 AM

>secure the Channel Islands?

What have I missed on the News?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 08:12 AM

Here you go.
Pledges from the BNP and old squid eye.
Voluntary resettlement of ethnic minority Britons
Reintroduce military service
Corporal punishment for petty criminals
Reintroduce death penalty
and
Redploy british troops to secure the Channel tunnel

Good grief.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 07:54 AM

Stalin may have killed 60 million, but it was all in a good cause.

The same reason it's all right for Blair to lie but not for the Tories.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 06:32 AM

Stalin had a better moustache....otherwise as you say, not a lot to choose.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Piers
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 06:05 AM

The Internationale comes from a poem written in 1871 in the aftermath of the
Paris Commune , 46 years before the Russian revolution.

You need some serious intellectual gymnastics to get from the lyrics of the Internationale (and socialist/communist thought) to Stalinism 56/57 years later, not that those who have a vested interest in the human race not being united haven't tried.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 05:08 AM

Stalin killed 60 million, including many of his own people in the gulags (soviet concentration camps). Compare this with the Nazi concentration camps.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Emma B
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 04:55 AM

"The Internationale will unite the human race" - I don't think I have an argument with that.......

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: sapper82
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 04:51 AM

A thought!
Songs related to the extreme right are, with considerable justification, more than slightly frowned upon.
But what about other songs of the Left? In particular The Internationale? Given that MANY more people were murdered under comunism ought these body of music be given the same treatment as Horst Wessel?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 04:32 AM

Well, i'd rather have the bnp than you any day.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Chris Green
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 06:54 PM

There's also a bit on their site saying and I quote "are there any budding Mike Oldfields (Mike Oldfields? Surely he writes mainly instrumental stuff?) out there? Lyrics encouraging or condoning race-mixing, homosexuality, drugs and similar decadence, and that tired old 'Oi' sound, are not required, but if you are making any kind of music that you think may be suitable, please get in touch."

So far I only have a chorus, but if anyone wants to write the rest, I'm sure they'll love it!

(to the tune of Villikins and his Dinah)

To me toorali-oorali-addy
To me toorali-oorali ay
To me too-rali-oorali-addity
I'm mixed race, a junkie and gay.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 06:15 PM

Does the tune remind anyone else of Donovan's "Gipsy Boy and I?"

Would that not be ironic?

Shame really. It deserves a better tune - not because of the political merit (BNP are not in favour here!) but because of the considerable virtue of the words apart from that fatal bit of verse 3.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: sapper82
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 04:44 PM

The tune to Horst Wessel makes it a bloody good marching song!! Pity about the words though!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 03:04 PM

Quite possibly the "Horst Vessel Lied" is also a sensitive account of the plight of some unfortunate young chap. I have never bothered to find out and quite frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn. Ditto any BNP shit.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 02:23 PM

Hahahaha!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Piers
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 02:20 PM

You couldn't make it up could you?:

'Members of the far right British National party walked out of their own Christmas party after organisers accidentally hired a black DJ. "We had to be careful what we said when we did the raffle so we didn't offend the guy," said BNP official Bob Garner. The party, at a London hotel was organised by the party's central London branch. "He sounded white on the phone," said Garner.' Sunday Times,12 December

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 01:06 PM

I thought it was Braindead Nazi Pricks...

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Tam the man
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 12:59 PM

I don't call them or their meembers or voters as the British National Party what they really are the BRITISH NAZI PARTY.

but Britain is a country where freedom of speech is still allowed in some cases, and they have the right to saying anything they like within reason, I just don't like them or the policeses that's all.

I will not be voting for them.

Tom

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 12:58 PM

They're not going to get in anyway, especially with Veritas there to split the vote of the ignorant.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Chris Green
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 12:54 PM

I've just broken a long-standing rule of mine and visited the BNP website, where I encountered the following gem concerning the above song.

"I only wrote the words, Dave Hannam did the real work by coming up with such a superb tune, and singing it so well. He's already sung it in several 'mainstream' folk clubs and tells me that he has reduced some listeners to tears (not in the way that I would if I tried to sing it!)" Nick Griffin (Fuhrer.. oops, sorry, Chairman)

Firstly, "mainstream" folk clubs? Is there such a thing? As opposed to what? BNP folk clubs?

Secondly, the vast majority of folk club audiences I've come across have been polite to a fault, and will dutifully applaud any floor spot no matter how abysmal. If you're going to take an audience perfunctorily clapping as a sign that they agree with what you say, you clearly haven't played many folk clubs.

Has anyone out there actually seen Mr Hannam at their local folk club? If so, did the song reduce you or anyone around you to tears? Or is this another example of far-right "we're just like you underneath the black uniform" bullshit?

If Mr H turns up at any folk club I'm playing at, I'll have no hesitation in telling him precisely what I think of having the English folk tradition hijacked by a bunch of racist scumbags. Although, being as this IS the BNP I may have to use words of one syllable!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 12:19 PM

Good man guestjim. Get these creeps off.

Flamenco ted You can't even ride a bike - never mind shoot a rabbit

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 12:12 PM

I saw Nick Griffin on TV this morning, and he made perfect sense for the first thirty seconds, then he mentioned his 'assault rifle' idea! Can you imagine Hull city centre on a friday night at closing time after several thousand rifles have been handed out?

When I lived in the country I had a firearms certificate for many years, When I moved to Hull the Police revoked my licence, and I had to get rid of all my guns, I was pissed off but I understood the reasoning behind their decision.

City living and shedloads of guns just don't go together.
            Bolt action 303's, the true path!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Pied Piper
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 11:57 AM

I saw the broadcast and found it intriguing, but the song is the of the typical 70's banal amateur singer songwriter drivel that killed many good folk clubs
PP

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 11:45 AM

Cut the crap and cut to the chase folks - see the BNP leader's rants about all UK homes acquiring assault rifles (and his Psycho "reasons" for them), then come back here to discuss whether his band of hoods is a legitimate political party or no.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,Britfolker
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 11:34 AM

I would admit to subscribing to the philosophy of the song, except for the racist *Iraqis and Afghans* bit.

But having just looked at the BNP video clip, (thanks for the link sapper82), I don't think I could sing it without bringing to mind the purpose to which it has been put by the BNP. So no, I don't think I could sing it.

Mind you, it is not the first song that has been spoilt for me by seeing the video clip :-) (New thread, any one?)


Personally, I think the melody lacks the strength of the lyrics. I would have thought something with a bit more punch would have been more fitting.

Just for a moment forgetting the BNP associations with the song, what *would* Ewan McColl have done musically with a set of words expressing these sentiments? (Excluding the racist bit).

Hmm!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: breezy
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 10:57 AM

Dr Dr

Not true, I couldnt bring myself to sing something I didnt understand or believe in.

I dont think Pete Seeger could either.

I must believe inwhat I sing to others.



but

If I was getting paid to 'Act' maybe I would, but I'ld probably decline the offer.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Doktor Doktor
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 08:50 AM

Umm .... we happily sing the songs / play the tunes without subscribing to the philosophy. Folkies are real good at that ... probably thats what we're for ......

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: sapper82
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 07:15 AM

Having already made my posting above I had a look at the BNP site to find the song and this is the link to it (fingers crossed that it works):-
BNP Song site
To me it sounds as good a song as the left wing propaganda produced by Jimmy Miller (aka Ewan McColl)and other superb songwirters I happen to disagree with politically.
Looking at it as an ex-squaddie it does brings home the appalingly shabby treatment given to ex-servicemen in the UK and Veterans in the US.
It will not however persuade me to vote BNP!!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,Britfolker
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 06:40 AM

>Any comments?

Plenty come to mind....

>... a bit on the extreme side....

Do me a favour! Understatement of the year imho!

However, this is a folk music forum, unless I'm greatly mistaken, and I for one would hate to see any discussion of this, and perhaps other, memorable songs discarded into the BS list or removed completely, because of the political persuasions of the writer. I personally wouldn't consider this song out and out BNP propaganda, with or without that line in verse 3.

Thread starter/Guest, if you are still out there, is there a tune to go with the song?

(though I somehow suspect that, having sown the seeds of discontent, and been told to *guck off* he has disappeared!)

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: sapper82
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 06:39 AM

weelittledrummer
"No we are not getting that way under Blair, who has worked all his life in an honourable manner in a political party of the highest principle."

Bollocks he has!! TB lied through his teeth about the reasons for invading Iraq and the fact surrounding the apparent suicide of Dr. Kelly.
Not only that but his party has been the first to scream "rasism" whenever someone brought up legitimate concerns regarding Immigration and so-called "multi-culturalism". This stiffling of any oportunity of open debate on such matters opened up a gap for the BNP to drive a coach and horses through.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: BanjoRay
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 06:29 AM

Hitler stood in elections till he was elected. That was his last one!
Ray

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,Gedpipes
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 06:26 AM

Have you got a name guest? A monkey stood in Hartlepool for the mayoral elections and was elected. You are correct in saying that the BNP are standing in many seats as prospective parliamentary candidates. This fact alone does not make them a democratic party.
Presumably you think it is democratic to peddle racist propagada? If you are the same guest posing under various names then come clean. What is your agenda?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 06:17 AM

Someone has written that the BNP "do not engage in democractic politics". Are you thick? The BNP is standing in elections up and down the country next week as they do every year.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 06:16 AM

I deliberately posted separately because there are two completely separate issues here.

The song, taken purely as a creative work is good, and with the small change suggested above, would be more than palatable. It speaks to the perennial plight of the returning ex soldiers of many wars.

These men have put their lives on the line in the service of their country, and are left to rot when no longer needed.

I read somewhere that more Vietnam veterans have committed suicide, than were killed in that war. They were mostly draftees, not volunteers, and came home to be called babykillers, and treated with contempt and hatred by those whose fathers had the clout to keep them from being drafted.

That, to me should be what this song is about.

DT

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 06:07 AM

No we are not getting that way under Blair, who has worked all his life in an honourable manner in a political party of the highest principle.

The BNP blame all our ills on on ethnic minorities , which is pretty good acid test for detecting fascists.

sorry about that - too many relative clauses. I'm in bad mood - just come back from the dentist.

all the best

Big Al Whittle

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 06:04 AM

One comment, Openmind.

The German people didn't see Hitler as particularly anti democratic until he was given the power to be so. They believed he wanted a better Germany for all.

Also, I seem to remember large numbers of Indians, Malays, Sikhs, and others now despised by the BNP, being killed supporting this country in the fight against Hitler. Small thanks for them from our resident Fascisti.

I agree with Sir joHn. Racist scum!

Don T.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Emma B
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 06:02 AM

It is unfortunately true that many of the "homeless" on the streets of this country have experienced "institutionalization" either in Childrens Homes, Mental Hospitals or the army and find difficulty in adapting to life outside often rejecting the help that is available.
I feel particularly sorry for those young men fighting an illegal war that is so obviously revilved by so many fellow citizens; they will surely need our help in civilian life

I have visited "asylum seekers" in the dispersal housing that they had been allocated in one of our northern cities. These were "condemned" slum terraced houses in an appalling state of disrepair and were "available" because no one else would have voluntarily rented them and the council had insuffcient funds to ensure their demolition. Nevertheless, songs like the above perpetuate the pervasive and divisive hate message that "someone who has never paid a penny into our system is eligible for housing/benefits" at the expense of the elderly etc.

Lets have some alternative songs posted here - don't let the devil have all the best tunes.....

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 06:02 AM

This is absolute bollocks. Open mind? you have to be joking. Why do I think you have another agenda.
Lets get one thing straight. The BNP
incite hatred based on people who they perceive to be different
and they incite and engage in violence.
They do not engage in democractic politics but the politics of fear.
If you want to find out the full extent of their activities log on to searchlight which has been campaigning against their activites for over 30 years.

Joe Offer this is not a healthy thread for mudcat.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,open mind
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 05:40 AM

True about fascists. My grandad fought in the war against them and we would never want to ever live under a tyrannical state with no freedom (hang on a sec - are we not getting that way under Bliar?).

But I really don't believe you can call the BNP that. You know what the papers are like and how they like to name call. (Believe me, I know -I studied Media at uni). I've honestly never actually looked into the BNP, since I thought they were a bit on the 'extreme' side, despite agreeing on some of their points, but having checked out their site as an open-minded person, I don't see that there is anything 'fascist' (ie anti-democratic) about them. Any comments?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 04:40 AM

Hm...probably one the most interesting threads I've ever seen on Mudcat.

I've got a friend living in Hull who works as a counsellor and she has helped a lot of ex-squaddies, who have had a pretty shit deal from society. In fact its not unknown for various factions to categorise the British Army as despised murderers even on the mudcat page.

Who would know better that fascists are scum than the body of men who delivered Europe and the world from the threat of Fascist domination. All of the people who create threads like the ones that must be SO offensive to people who have kids out in Iraq or other trouble spots, enjoy such freedoms as they have only because of the British Army.

As for the BNP marching in and colonising English folksong. well God knows its been vacant long enough with the only songs played on the radio - songs about 18th century shepherds and so many folkies living in a world where they still dance jigs and reels.

oh yeh we're going to get that one - the human condition doesn't change and The Plains of waterloo tells it like it is. I guess thats what makes folksong such a vibrant force in our society and so many people are flocking to hear these eternal truths.

that said don't vote BNP

all the best

Big Al Whittle

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: breezy
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 04:35 AM

Untill the importance of education is fully understood by those who choose to let it pass them by then those who miss out on it will always be resentful of those from abroad being given a hand.





many young men entered the forces with little or no eduction?
had they succeeded in main stream school they would they have done something different

Squaddies will soon be redundant as wars will be fought with highly qualified personnel with high tech weaponry
making GHQ an area to not want to live in!


Since when was a song judged on the character of the author?



the song smacks of bitterness, rather 'naive'style, and probably fictitious, but has impact.

I work with many young men from Iraq and Afghanistan, I must say they do enjoy playing Volleyball.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 04:30 AM

Not a bad song actually. I think it does represent a serious problem we have in Britain. Our ex-servicemen (and old people for that matter too) deserve better. It's just about fairness really. Why should someone who has never paid a penny into our system, be eligible for housing/benefits/handouts (call 'em what you like)? In the end, it's at the expense of the rest of us who pay our way.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 04:01 AM

Yeah, but it's actually a very good song (or it might be, with the tune), and it certainly speaks of a problem perceived to be widespread (although it probably isn't widespread) so maybe a rewrite of verse 3 would see it as a "proper" song.

Just switch "Iraqis and Afghans" to "all kinds of queuejumpers".

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,jOhn
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 07:39 PM

Bnp are rubbissh, [really rubbisah, most rubbish people i ever herd of],
you can see this for yousdelf, just look at the bnp people=ie
= they are look like evil bastards, and look like thugs, and very bad people, i seen them on telly, they look very bad [lilke fighting people, ie them people waht like to make trubble, and they all got really short hare, [like skinheds], and you can tell they are bad , just by look at them, and they piss me off.


there new idea is= give all ex army people guns, and they idea is = all ex army people hafe to carry guns, i am ex army, if they give me a gun, i will shoot them [the bnp;s], not the coloureds.


and anyway= most ex army people waht i know is mental, ie there heads is fucvked up, so give them guns = caos!


if you are bnp person then just get lost.

signed john evans [john from hull].

[that means guck offf].

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 06:08 PM

The Nazis used German folk music so well that the post war generations of german folkies won't touch it with a bargepole, which is why they all pretend to be Irish.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,Rich A
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 12:54 PM

Nick Griffin is scum of the highest order. He gets arrested every couple of months for inciting racial hatred. A despicable man with despicable aims.

Folk music is for the people, not Nazis!

Rich A

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,Anonanonanonanon
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 12:43 PM

OK, I've Googled. Don't really like what I found!
Should perhaps have Googled before my previous post rather than making a total prat of myself.

Open mouth, change feet! Apoligies to any one I may have offended.

Now, the question is: should the reputation of the author change my attitude towards this song, notwithstanding my reservations about verse 3?

Or would that make me, at best, an apologist for the BNP? Or at worst, a supporter.

Signing off to slash wrists!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,Anonanonanonanon
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 12:05 PM

Living overseas, I may be missing something here from a political angle. I assume the BNP is some right wing UK minority party. If that is the case, then I believe that this is not the forum in which to peddle its wares.
However, the words, construction and sentiment of the song/poem strike a bell with me. OK, the reference to housing for Iraqis and Afghans certainly gives it a racist slant, but I'm sure that this song is good enough to deserve a wider currency.
Maybe a re-write of this verse might make it more palletable, unless, of course, the author is deliberately trying to stir up BNP sympathies. On the other hand, maybe he is telling it "like it is" without actually pushing any political barrow.
I have not previously heard of Nick Griffin, but if this song is typical of his material, I would like to see and hear more.
Signing off to go Googling....

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 11:35 AM

Of course you are trying to make a point. Things like this are not posted without an agenda. Come clean - either you are an apologist for these people or you work for Searchlight.
Show us your colours or go somewhere else.
Ged

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,Vote BNP
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 11:22 AM

I'm not trying to make a point Gedpopes. I was simply adding the lyrics as the fact that the BNP have been using folk music lately has been a matter for discussion elsewhere on Mudcat. Thought I'd let people make their own minds up about it that's all.

Why is it "racist rubbish" scabby D?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: GUEST,Scabby Douglas
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 10:31 AM

This racist muck should be allowed to die (please do NOT harvest this lyric for inclusion in the Digitrad , JoeClones)

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 09:23 AM

Gedpipes,
          You are a silly ols sausage aren't you? The message is simple, foxes make rubbish NCO's.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: BNP broadcast folk song
From: Gedpipes
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 08:50 AM

I'm a simple man. What point are you trying to make Guest?

Subject: Lyr Add: CORPORAL FOX (Nick Griffin)
From: GUEST,Vote BNP
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 08:47 AM

Corporal Fox

My God, it was cold in the Falklands
When the stars and the flares shone out clear,
But at least I had mates to share jokes with
It's much colder and lonelier here.
And that sharp piece of Argentine shrapnel
It's hurt me for many a year
But not like when you look straight through me,
Pretending I'm not even here.

My God, we were thirsty in Kuwait
And choking in dust we went dry
But we shed a few tears for our Gary
When a mine took his legs and he died
And knowing the next step could kill me
I thought it had taught me of fear
Til I see how you look straight through me
Pretending I'm not even here.

My God, I was angry to hear it
When 'home' from the army I came:
There were flats for Iraqis and Afghans
But never a one with my name.
I thought that the council would sort it
Til a desk clerk with spiky green hair
Said "next please" and looked straight through me
Pretending I just wasn't there.

So I swear and I curse and I mutter
Though the anger is mainly inside
Without hope there's no disappointment
There's no one out there on my side.
I know the White Lightning will kill me
Don't you see that I really don't care?
It helps me to look straight through you
And pretend that I'm not quite all there.

So I live where the police cars can't see me
In my rags and my old cardboard box
And there's no one would notice me vanish
Except for my mate, Corporal Fox.
Two broken old squaddies together
In winter we share the same lair
And I bring him some bones from our Colonel
So he doesn't pretend I'm not there.


Author Nick Griffin gives a brief word sketch of the inspiration behind Corporal Fox, one of more than a dozen songs he has written:

I have a very early childhood memory of seeing a bearded tramp with a fox on a lead. It was many years later, when I heard that around 20% of Britain's homeless are ex-servicemen, that I remembered him and realised that most 'tramps' in the early 1960s would have been veterans of the Second World War. Different wars have been fought since then, of course, but the disgrace of old soldiers without homes stays the same. Having promoted his fox to Corporal, the veteran of two recent conflicts brings him chicken bones from the bin outside KFC so he doesn't lose his only companion. He seems to be going mad – or is it the society that lets such men down so badly that's truly crazy?