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Lyr Add: King William Was King George's Son

GUEST,.gargoyle 26 Apr 05 - 03:56 AM
Jim Dixon 28 Apr 05 - 11:08 PM
Malcolm Douglas 28 Apr 05 - 11:58 PM
Jim Dixon 30 Apr 05 - 01:36 PM
GUEST,jaynecalderwood 28 Nov 06 - 09:53 AM
Joe Offer 07 Feb 11 - 01:01 AM
Reinhard 07 Feb 11 - 01:55 AM
squeezeboxhp 07 Feb 11 - 08:02 AM
GUEST 07 Feb 11 - 04:31 PM
GUEST,SteveG 07 Feb 11 - 04:34 PM
Steve Gardham 08 Feb 11 - 01:17 PM
Snuffy 09 Feb 11 - 02:51 AM
Steve Gardham 09 Feb 11 - 12:46 PM
Steve Gardham 11 Feb 11 - 04:35 PM
Snuffy 13 Feb 11 - 04:50 AM
Steve Gardham 13 Feb 11 - 12:39 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 13 Feb 11 - 02:15 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 13 Feb 11 - 02:32 PM
Steve Gardham 13 Feb 11 - 03:18 PM
Jim Dixon 17 Feb 11 - 02:23 PM
Steve Gardham 17 Feb 11 - 05:57 PM
GUEST,Jim Humphreys 22 Oct 13 - 10:37 AM
EBarnacle 22 Oct 13 - 04:43 PM
Airymouse 22 Oct 13 - 05:14 PM
GUEST,GUEST: Fred Guillerman 19 Aug 14 - 10:28 AM
GUEST,Fay Coppin 09 Sep 16 - 08:25 AM
GUEST,Elnora Jones Hatcher 08 Dec 16 - 01:03 PM
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Subject: Lyr Add: King William Was King George's Son
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 03:56 AM

KING WILLIAM WAS KING GEORGES'S SON



From Emrich Duncan American Folk Poetry – An Anthology, "Party-play, Courting and Kissing Games and Songs:,   Library of Congress, 1974 p.



In this play a young man stands with a broad-brimmed hat in his had. While the song proceeds, he puts it on a girl's head, after which they march arm in arm, and minally she in turn puts it on the head of a young man, to continue as before:

    King William was King George's son,
    And from the royal blood he sprung;
    Upon the breast he wore a star,
    And it was called the signs of war.
    Syus, young lady, will you :Visit: and go?
    Say, young lady, will you 'list ande go?
    The broad-brimmed hat you must put on.
    And follow on to the fife and drum.
The play continues until all have been crowned with the hat and narch round the chimmney in couples, singing with a a will the words over and over. And with ech crowning, of course, there is a kiss. ,


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Subject: Lyr Add: KING WILLIAM WAS KING GEORGE'S SON
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 11:08 PM

Slightly different version from http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/supptrad.html :

KING WILLIAM WAS KING GEORGE'S SON

From W. W. Newell, Games and Songs of American Children, item
#177, p. 246, from Connecticut.

King William was King George's son,
And from the royal blood he sprung;
Upon his breast he wore a stowe,
Which denotes the sign of woe.

Say, young lady, will you 'list and go?
Say, young lady, will you 'list and go?
The broad-brimmed had you must put on,
And follow on to the fife and drum.

[I don't know what "stowe" means, unless it's "stoat" i.e. ermine in its brown non-winter coat.]


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: King William Was King George's Son
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 11:58 PM

"Stowe/woe" is probably just a mistake for "star/war". People don't walk around wearing stoats, and ermine is never referred to by that name.


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Subject: Lyr Add: KING WILLIAM WAS KING JAMES' SON
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 01:36 PM

The Cowell collection has a field recording of John McCready, unaccompanied vocalist, recorded by Sidney Robertson Cowell at the Arizona Bar in Groveland, Tuolumne County, California on August 2, 1939:

KING WILLIAM WAS KING JAMES' SON

King William was King James' son.
From a royal race he sprung.
Upon his breast he wore a star,
And in his mouth a big cigar.

Go choose you east. Go choose you west.
Go choose the one that you love best.
If she's not here to take your part,
Choose another with all your heart.

Down on this carpet you must kneel,
As sure as the grass grows in the field.
Salute your bride and kiss her sweet,
And now you may rise upon your feet.

And now you're married. You must be good.
Hire a man to chop your wood.
Hire another to carry it in.
And now you may kiss your true love again.

[In the same collection, George Vinton Graham plays guitar and sings this version, recorded in San Jose, California on July 9, 1939.]

King William was King James' son.
And from the royal race he won.
Upon his breast, he wore a star
That points away to the compass spar.

Go choose your east. Go choose your west.
Go choose the one that you love best.
If she ain't here to take her part,
Choose another with all your heart.

Down on this carpet you must kneel,
As sure as the grass goes in the field.
Salute your bride and kiss her sweet,
And then you can rise upon your feet.

[After some prompting, and a false start, he sings another version of verse 1:]

King William was King James' son.
And from the royal race he won.
He wore a star upon his breast,
Pointing to the east and west.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: King William Was King George's Son
From: GUEST,jaynecalderwood
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 09:53 AM

I couldn't believe it when I found recordings from America of a song and game my friends and I used to play in the seventies in a tiny village school in Yorkshire .Does anyone else remember?
the only bit I can remember is;
King William was King james son.
all the royal races run,
upon his chest he wore a star 'pointing to the russian war.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: King William Was King George's Son
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Feb 11 - 01:01 AM

King Henry Was King Jame's Son is the song for February 7 on Jon Boden's "A Folk Song a Day" project.
Here's the Traditional Ballad Index entry for this song:

    King William was King James's Son

    DESCRIPTION: "King William was King James's Son, Upon the royal race he run, Upon his breast he wore a star, (That points the way to the ocean far)." "Now this couple are married together... You must be kind, you must be good, And help your wife in kindling wood."
    AUTHOR: unknown
    EARLIEST DATE: 1903 (Newell)
    KEYWORDS: nonballad playparty royalty
    FOUND IN: Britain(Scotland(Aber)) US(NE,So) Canada(Mar)
    REFERENCES (7 citations):
    GreigDuncan8 1571, "King William" (1 text, 1 tune)
    Randolph 543, "King William was King James's Son" (15 texts, mostly short, 2 tunes; the "C" and "D" texts might be "Oats and Beans and Barley Grow")
    Randolph/Cohen, pp. 402-403, "King William Was King James's Son" (1 text, 1 tune -- Randolph's 543A)
    Hudson 142, pp. 289-290, "King William" (1 text plus mention of at least five others)
    Creighton/Senior, pp. 263-264, "See This Pretty Little Girl of Mine" (1 text)
    Flanders/Brown, pp. ,188-189 "King William Was King George's Son" (1 text)
    ADDITIONAL: Kathleen Hoagland, editor, One Thousand Years of Irish Poetry (New York, 1947), pp. 181-182, "The White Cockade" (1 text, translated from the Gaelic with some lines surely inspired by this; the rest is not the usual "White Cockade." I rather suspect two-way translation)

    ST R543 (Full)
    Roud #4203
    CROSS-REFERENCES:
    cf. "Oats and Beans and Barley Grow" (floating lyrics)
    cf. "The White Cockade"
    NOTES: Norm Cohen says succinctly of the Randolph version, "The title of the song is not true."
    To clarify: There are no specific references in this song to which king is meant, but there has never been an actual case, in England or Scotland (or any other country, to my knowledge) of a King William who was the son of a King James. The closest thing to a parallel would be William III and Mary II; William III was the nephew, son-in-law, and deposer of James II.
    Paul Stamler recalls a song "King William was King George's Son," and of course this is the title in Flanders/Brown; Newell also lists this as a variant reading. This is more possible (King William IV, reigned 1830-1837, was the song of George the III and the younger brother of George IV) -- but William IV was a dissolute, childless king who would hardly inspire a song.
    Another known combination of father and son is the song is King Charles son of James (possible for James I and Charles I).
    Gomme has two texts with William son of David; England never had a King David. Scotland did, but neither was succeeded by a William. David II Bruce died without legitimate offspring. David I was succeeded by his grandson Malcolm IV "the Maiden." When Malcolm died, he was succeeded by his brother William the Lion. This is therefore the closest example of a William-and-David in British history.
    It has been claimed that this is a war recruiting song, but of Randolph's fifteen versions, only one (H, "This old slouch hat you must put on To follow the man with the fife and drum") supports this conclusion, and while Newell's text #177 gives hints of a soldier's life, it's directed to a young woman! The Flanders/Brown version appears to be just a singing game.
    Newell tied his first text (#27) to the Swedish tale of Folke Algotson, but if so, there has been a lot of evolution along the way. - RBW
    Last updated in version 2.5
    File: R543

    Go to the Ballad Search form
    Go to the Ballad Index Instructions
    Go to the Bibiography
    Go to the Discography

    The Ballad Index Copyright $TrueYear by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle.


Roud Index Search (click)



I see a number of American instances of this song in Roud. Maybe it would be a good idea to post a few versions.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: King William Was King George's Son
From: Reinhard
Date: 07 Feb 11 - 01:55 AM

This is Greig Duncan Volume 8 No 1571:

King William was King James' son.
Around the royal race he run.
Upon his breast he wore a star
Pointing to the East and West.

Come choose your honour choose your dear.
Come choose the one that you hold dear.
She is not here to take her part,
Choose another with all your heart.

Down on this carpet you must kneel,
Just as the grass grown round the steel.
Salute your bride and kiss her sweet,
And then rise up upon your feet.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: King William Was King George's Son
From: squeezeboxhp
Date: 07 Feb 11 - 08:02 AM

i remember it from the 50s in West Riding of Yorkshire at school.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: King William Was King George's Son
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Feb 11 - 04:31 PM

Joe,
I have a copy of the original ballad it is derived from, in a scarce 18thc garland in the BL if you want it. I think I gave the details on our Yorkshire Garland website if you want to have a look, along with a version collected in Yorkshire of the singing game. The ballad must also have been sung to The white Cockade.

www.yorkshirefolksong.net

One of our more tecnically minded Catters might even provide a blue clicky for you if they spot this.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: King William Was King George's Son
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 07 Feb 11 - 04:34 PM

Sorry that last post was me on wife's laptop which is 20x faster than my steam-driven pc.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: King William Was King George's Son
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Feb 11 - 01:17 PM

Okay I've found my copy of the probable original and I got a few things wrong in my previous post.
When you're in the BL looking through 18thc garlands there's only one way to copy them currently. They are all bound up tightly in small thick volumes and would not fit on a photocopier so you have to sit there with pencil and paper and write out what you find of interest. There are 100s of these bound volumes by the way and so far we've only scratched the surface. So if only part of a song is of interest you tend to just copy the bit that is of interest. I live 250 miles away from the BL and have very limited means so visits are 2-3 times a year.

The song it comes from is titled 'The New Highland Laddie' which isn't very helpful as there are many songs with this title, most dating from around the 1745 rebellion. However I'm pretty sure this is post 1789.

The song is in a garland 'Ally Croaker's Garland' and is song number 2. Ref. BL C116. bb. 11. Garland 23. There is no imprint on the garland but most of the surrounding garlands are full of pleasure garden theatrical pieces typical of the late 18thc.

For reasons already given I only copied down stanzas 4 and 7 of the 7 stanzas. The following piece 3 'The Answer to the Highland Laddie' also contained a relevant stanza, number 4. Unfortunately I didn't note the number of stanzas in this answer but obviously there must have been at least 4.

The New Highland Laddie
4
My Lad he is both straight and tall,
He's able to face a cannon Ball,
He's the only thundering bolt of War
And on his Breast he wears a Star.
7
I'll sell my Rock, my Reel, my Tow,
My good grey Mare and hooked Cow,
To buy my Love a suit of Plaid,
For he's a ranting roaring Lad.
(This last stanza is from earlier variants of The Highland Laddie, see Herd, and similar stanzas have jumped over into Shule Agra)

The Answer to the Highland Laddie
4
Duke William is King George's Son,
And from his Royal Blood he sprung
Here's no pretender dare invade
He'd mill his Nob, and White Cockade.

Duke William is of course the 3rd son of George III who eventually became William IV. He became Duke of Clarence in 1789 when in his 20s and by 1811 had risen through the Navy ranks to become Admiral. I'd therefore place the song between 1789 and c1800. I have note that it was also printed by Angus of Newcastle and there are copies in the Robinson Library at Newcastle Uni. Angus was printing late 18thc/early 19thc.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: King William Was King George's Son
From: Snuffy
Date: 09 Feb 11 - 02:51 AM

Although the garland appears to be late 18th century, the Duke William referred to is more likely an earlier one Prince William, Duke of Cumberland, who was very heavily involved in putting down the 1745 uprising.

Prince William (William Augustus; 26 April 1721 – 31 October 1765), was a younger son of George II of Great Britain and Caroline of Ansbach, and Duke of Cumberland from 1726. He is generally best remembered for his role in putting down the Jacobite Rising at the Battle of Culloden in 1746, and as such is also known as "Butcher" Cumberland


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: King William Was King George's Son
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Feb 11 - 12:46 PM

Snuffy,
Brilliant!
I think you're right. It certainly makes sense with the mention of the 'pretender'.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: King William Was King George's Son
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 04:35 PM

Snuffy,
I'd like to include your info above on our website and I'd also like to credit you with the discovery. I can put it down to 'Snuffy' but would rather use a proper name. If you want to keep your identity obscure here you can PM me with your name if you wish or my contact details are on the website.

Thanks.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: King William Was King George's Son
From: Snuffy
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 04:50 AM

Steve,

No reason to obscure my identity: there are plenty of people on Mudcat who already know that I'm Vaughan Hully anyway.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: King William Was King George's Son
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 12:39 PM

Thanks, Vaughan.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: King William Was King George's Son
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 02:15 PM

King William is discused in Iona and Peter Opie, The Singing Game, pp. 122-125.
"King William has been sung of as being King David's son, King George's son, and king Simon's son. Alternatively King Henry has been credited with being King Jame's son; King Charles, with more accuracy, has been given as King Jame's son; and King Arthur as King William's son."
In England, the Opies say the game has been played mostly in Yorkshire.
"S. O. Addy told Alice Gomme (1894) that in Sheffield young men and women used to form the ring....they referred to as a kissing ring; and when a man had made known his fancy he walked arm-in-arm with her inside the circle."
Words from Pickering:

King Henry was King Jame's son,
And all the royal race is run;
Upon his breast he wears a star
Right away to the ocean far.

Choose to the east, and choose to the west,
And choose the one that you love best,
If they are not here to take their part,
Choose another with all your heart.

Down on the carpet you shall kneel,
As sure as the grass grows in the field,
Allelulia bright, and a kiss so sweet,
Please to rise upon your feet.

Variants:
Upon his breast he wore a star,
Pointing to the Russian war.

Upon his breast he wore a star,
And it was called the sign of war (U. S., 19th C.)

On his breast he wore a star,
And that's the way to the pickle jar.

Upon his breast he wore a star,
And in his hand a big guitar.

And in his mouth a large cigar.

"However the third verse of the song 'Lewie Gordon', given by Hogg in his Jacobite Relice, second series 1821, and supposedly written about a younger son of the Duke of Gordon who declared for Prince Charles in the rising of 1745, invites comparison:

The princely youth that I do mean
Is fitted for to be a king;
On his breast he wears a star,
You'd take him fpr god of war."

Footnote: "Robert Graves said that in this version the king must certainly have been William IV, and the last line originally 'and that's the way that Billy's a tar'."

"*The tune of 'Lewie Gordon', which Hogg says is the original or northern set of 'Tarry woo' is not similar to 'King William' as usually chanted.)"

The Opies give a score for King William as sung in Huddersfield; it fits the verses above from Pickering.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: King William Was King George's Son
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 02:32 PM

Alice Gomme, 1894, The Traditional Games of England, Scotland and Ireland, pp. 302-304, suggested that the game "preserved the ceremonies of a now obsolete marriage-custom-- namely, the disguising of the bride and placing her among her bridesmaids and other young girls, all having veils or other coverings alike over their heads and bodies. The bridegroom has to select from among these maidens the girl whom he wished to marry, or whom he had already married, for until this was done he was not allowed to depart with his bride."

Gomme (wisely?) does not discuss the kings, etc., involved.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: King William Was King George's Son
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 03:18 PM

Yes, Lewis Gordon, written by the Rev. Alexander Geddes was also contemporary with the '45. 'The Lad I daurna name' who wore the star is in this case the Chevalier himself. Which came first it would be difficult to fix on. The children's game most likely derives from the garland ballad as they have more text in common and the tune of course of 'The White Cockade', whereas 'Lewie Gordon' was written to the tune 'Tarry Woo'. Interesting connection though.


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Subject: Lyr Add: KING ARTHUR WAS KING WILLIAM'S SON
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 02:23 PM

From Games and Songs of American Children collected and compared by William Wells Newell (New York: Harper & Brothers, 1883), page 73:

No. 17.
KING ARTHUR WAS KING WILLIAM'S SON.

A row of hats of various sizes, and belonging to both sexes, are placed on the floor. The leader picks up the first hat, and puts it on his own head, marching and singing the verse. He then takes up the next hat, and places it on the head of any one he pleases; the person chosen stands behind him, and they once more march, singing. The process is continued, until all the company are arranged in line:

King Arthur was King William's son,
And when the battle he had won,
Upon his breast he wore a star,
And it was called the sign of war.
Orange, New Jersey.

The following rhyme is exceedingly familiar, throughout the Middle and Southern States, as a kissing-round:

King William was King James's son,
And all the royal race he run;
Upon his breast he wore a star.
And it was called the sign of war.

Star of the east, star of the west,
Star of the one you love the best.
If she's not here don't take her part,
But choose another with all your heart.

Down on the carpet you must kneel,
As the grass grows on the field.
Salute your bride, and kiss her sweet,
And rise again upon your feet.

The round is also familiar in Ireland. We learn from an informant that in her town it was formerly played in a peculiar manner. Over the head of a girl, who stood in the centre of a ring, was held a shawl, sustained by four others grasping the corners. The game then proceeded as follows:

King William was King George's son—
    From the Bay of Biscay, O!
Upon his breast he wore a star—
    Find your way to English schools.

Then followed the game-rhyme, repeated with each stanza, "Go choose you East," etc. King William is then supposed to enter—

The first girl that I loved so dear,
Can it be she's gone from me?
If she's not here when the night comes on,
Will none of you tell me where she is gone?

He recognizes the disguised girl—

There's heart beneath the willow-tree,
There's no one here but my love and me.

"He had gone to the war, and promised to marry her when he came back. She wrapped a shawl about her head, to see if he would recognize her." This was all the reciter could recollect; the lines of the ballad were sung by an old woman, the ring answering with the game-rhyme.
Waterford, Ireland.

The round now in use in the town whence this comes, but where the ballad is not at present known, begins:

King William was King George's son—
    From the Buy of Biscay, O!
Upon his breast he wore a star—
    Point your way across the sea.

In the year 1287, Folke Algotson, a high-born Swedish youth, carried off to Norway (at that time the refuge of such boldness) Ingrid, a daughter of the "law-man" or judge of East Gothland, who was betrothed to a Danish noble. Popular ballads attached themselves to the occurrence, which are still preserved. The substance of that version of the story with which we are concerned is as follows: A youth loves a maid, who returns his affection, but in his absence her friends have "given" her to another. He rides to the wedding ceremony with a troop of followers. The bride, seeing him approach, and wishing to test his affection, calls on her maidens to "take off her gold crown, and coif her in linen white." But the hero at once recognizes his love, mounts with her on horseback, and flees to Norway.

We cannot believe the resemblance to be accidental, and look upon our rhymes as a branch from the same ancient—but not historical—root.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: King William Was King George's Son
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 05:57 PM

Those 19th century folklorists had some romantic notions! Personally I think the whole idea springs from the Harry Potter series!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: King William Was King George's Son
From: GUEST,Jim Humphreys
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 10:37 AM

My Dad sang a song to me when I was a boy (in the 60's), which in turn his father sang to him when he was small (in the 30's) which must have some relationship to the above lyrics:

King Arthur was King David's son,
And all the royal race was one,
Upon his head he wore a star,
A pointing the way to the pickle jar.

(and so on, I don't remember the rest)

Has anyone every seen/heard this version?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: King William Was King George's Son
From: EBarnacle
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 04:43 PM

An additional bit of symbolism may be the shawl referred to above. In a traditional Jewish wedding ceremony, the weeding takes place under the groom's prayer shawl. Joining her under the shawl may be a statement of sanctification for the match.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: King William Was King George's Son
From: Airymouse
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 05:14 PM

We sing this song but don't have any game to go with it

King William was King James's son
Upon the royal race he run
Upon his breast he wore a star
Which was called the star of love

Go face the east go face the west
Go choose the one that you love best
If he isn't here, go take his part
Choose the next one to your heart

Here comes a light to light you to bed
And here comes a hatchet to chop off your head


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: King William Was King George's Son
From: GUEST,GUEST: Fred Guillerman
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 10:28 AM

I remember a few lines of this song as sung by girls during recess on the school playground. Location was at St. Agnes Parochial School, Uniontown,Ky. The years were pre and during WW II:

          King William was King James's son
          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
          Upon his breast he wore a star
          Twas a noble son of war


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: King William Was King George's Son
From: GUEST,Fay Coppin
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 08:25 AM

Have had these words going round in my head and just Googled to see if I'd imagined them. Pleased to see I haven't. Like Jayne Calderwood's post, I remember it from the playground in a small school in Marsden, Yorkshire, in the late 50's or from Hendon, North London, early 60's. I think it was a skipping or hopscotch rhyme. Only one verse though!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: King William Was King George's Son
From: GUEST,Elnora Jones Hatcher
Date: 08 Dec 16 - 01:03 PM

I am 83 from Missouri, ancestors from Virginia,Kentucky, North Carolina, etc. My mother always sang this play party song as:
Prince John he was King James' son,
From the royal race he sprung
He wore a star upon his chest
Which always pointed to the west.

Come choose you east
Come choose you west
Choose the one that you love best
and if another should take their part
Choose another with all your heart.

She attended play parties in the 1800s. Her ancestors all came to America before the American
Revolution.


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