BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites

Subject: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: dianavan
Date: 01 May 05 - 02:51 AM

Just had an interesting conversation with a non-Muslim from Iran.

I asked a few pointed questions and received blunt answers.

Who is worse, Sunnis or Shiites?

They are both bad for different reasons!

What is the problem with the Kurds?

Everyone was given a homeland after World War II except them because they were Nomads.

Why don't they give them a homeland?

They wouldn't be able to survive. They would be surrounded by Arabs and Iranians and maybe Turks.

Are they happy now that they are part of a coalition government in Iraq?

Yes, until the U.S. leaves Iraq.

What happens when the U.S. leaves Iraq?

The fight begins again.

What will bring peace to the region?

A dictator like Saddam who will control the rebel factions.

Who are the major factions who continue to fight?

The Arabs and the Iranians.

Will there ever be peace in that region?

That is doubtful.

Then why should the U.S. leave?

Because they will not solve anything. There will be no democracy because there are too many uneducated people and too many people just trying to survive. The coalition government will continue to exist only until the U.S. leaves. When the U.S. leaves, Iraq will be plunged into a civil war.

My questions to mudcatters:

It seems to me that the U.S. is now obliged to stay even if they are unwanted. Yes or no? Please give your reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 May 05 - 03:06 AM

Maybe it would be more correct to say that both Sunni and Shiite Muslims have bad and good elements. Seems to me that a good number of people in Iraq are fairly well educated and peaceable. I still hope for a way to peace, not just a pullout and an inevitable civil war. Continued occupation isn't the answer, either. There has to be a better way.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: Terry K
Date: 01 May 05 - 03:07 AM

Just like other places in the past, they have walked in thinking they can solve what they perceive as the problem, only to find that they didn't even start to understand what the problems are.

In my post-war lifetime I can't think of any single place where they made the slightest bit of difference apart from a temporary reduction in the population and a stiffer resolve among their opponents.

So to answer your question, I think they will pull out as soon as it is politically expedient for them to do so - without regard for what they are leaving behind.

And if your conversation had been about Afghanistan instead of Iraq? .....

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: mack/misophist
Date: 01 May 05 - 09:27 AM

The one hopeful sign is that my Palestinian friends tell me that, in palestine at least, Sunni and Shiite get along just fine as long as there is nothing to exacerbate matters. Unfortunately this is not the case in Iraq, although it might be possible if they tried hard enough. The best thing that can be said about the old Baathist party is that it tended to use religion, rather than letting religion use it. A Turkish style secular state would be best, but that's not going to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 05 - 09:35 AM

This is the 30th anniversary of the fall of Saigon, and the defeat of the US in Vietnam. We are once again seeing those desperate, depressing pictures of that time--and we WILL be seeing the same sort of outcome in Iraq one day. There is nothing "winnable" about the mess we created in Iraq, any more than Vietnam was "winnable"--because we are wrong, wrong, wrong in what we are doing. Which is nothing more than slaughtering innocents around the world.

3 million Vietnamese, 600,000 Cambodians, over 100,000 Iraqis...

The US is, quite simply, slaughtering MILLIONS of human beings in the name of "national security".

That's a whole lot of blood on our hands--the Sunnis and Shiites could never be as bad or evil as the US when it comes to political violence and the wholesale slaughter of innocent human beings. They will never come close to the depths of the depravity of the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 May 05 - 09:40 AM

In both Afghanistan and Iraq, the ruling parties were comprised of Sunni Muslims, prior to American invasion. In Afghanistan, Shias are the majority, in Iraq, they are the minority.

Afghanistan was a relatively multicultural society, with many different ethnic groups and languages. the Taliban (a Pakistani - controlled group)made an issue of religion and ethnicity by persecuting those who weren't Sunni Pashtuns. prior to that, while politics and wars were raging, different groups of people were still mingling, socialising and intermarrying, a sign that divisions were more political and religious than racial. one group excepted from this in country areas was the Hazaras, who have been persecuted for centuries.

In Iraq the minority Sunni Arabs dominated by brute force under Saddam. The most positive thing anyone could do there is get basic services happening again, like water and electricity. Just like Mussolini was remembered for getting the trains to run on time, under Saddam, people knew they could flush the toilets and turn the lights on.

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 05 - 09:42 AM

And neither will Al Qaeda ever come close to the depths of depravity of the US government, especially when you start counting Arab, Iranian, et al casualties in the Middle East that are a direct result of US policies in the region, ie Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, the West Bank and Gaza...

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 05 - 09:48 AM

...the Iran-Iraq war...

MILLIONS of innocent human beings slaughtered directly and indirectly by the hands of US soldiers, and by US funding for despots like Saddam Hussein, Ariel Sharon, and the House of Saud.

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: Azizi
Date: 01 May 05 - 09:56 AM

Dianavan,

I am posting somewhat off topic to say that I take exception to the negative phrasing of the title for this thread.

First off, from a strictly grammatical sense, I'm not sure 'who' is applicable for divisions of a particular religion.

Secondly, "Who is worse-Sunnis or Shiites seems on par with a question starting from a negative premise like "When was the last time you beat your wife?".

If someone asked "Who is worse the Methodist or the Baptist?" wouldn't you take exception to that?

BTW, [not that it matters, but for the record]I am not now nor have I ever been a Muslim although some people have mistaken me as a member of that religion because my first name is similar to the Arabic female name "Aziza" and the Arabic male name "Aziz".

On the other hand, I have read that the word 'Muslim' means"one who submits to the will of God". In that context only I would consider myself a Muslim.

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: GUEST,Cunningham
Date: 01 May 05 - 10:00 AM

Dianavan,

I'm sure that Martin Gibson will be releived to see that your thread title and opening post demonstrate the same anti-Muslim prejudices that he has identified in you in regard to anti-Semitism.

C

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: number 6
Date: 01 May 05 - 10:01 AM

' Who is worse, Sunnis or Shiites?'

The problem is in the question.

Which led to this question ' It seems to me that the U.S. is now obliged to stay even if they are unwanted. Yes or no?'

Maybe if we didn't slot humans into categories as such, overlooked such differences there wouldn't be any problems as such. We wouldn't get wrapped up in a angry spin that that has no end.

But then it is just a dream of a better world.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: GUEST,Cunningham
Date: 01 May 05 - 10:04 AM

"in palestine at least, Sunni and Shiite get along just fine as long as there is nothing to exacerbate matters."

Mack/Misophist,

Perhaps that's because the Palestinians, like almost all Arabs, are Sunni.

The only country in the Middle East that it dominated by the Shiites is Iran, a non-Arab, ethnically Persian, country.

The only Arab country with a significant minority of Shiites is Iran's next door neighbor, Iraq.

C

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: robomatic
Date: 01 May 05 - 10:27 AM

The world is FAR more complicated than any previous posters have acknowledged. In Iraq for example, where the Shiite MAJORITY has been dominated by not so much a Sunni minority but rather a secular socialist political party (Baath) which is primarily composed of Sunnis dominating through a military consisting of BOTH sects (but mostly led by Sunnis).

The far greater split is between secular Iraqis and the religiously 'dominated' (for want of a better word) Iraqis.

There are ethnic divisions of long standing: Turkomans, Kurds, Arabs, Persians. There are levels at which they will cooperate, levels at which they will collaborate, and at levels below which there is distrust. All revolve around mostly clear points of common interest.

One of the points of common interest is that most of 'em don't like being occupied. Would you?

Saying it is hopelessly complicated is to give up and abstain from assuming responsibility. Why say any more - except to pick on anyone who has any opinion whatsoever.

Seeing the real world and its current splits and figuring out what to do about it is far more interesting, and within the confines of a web-thread, fun.

Big picture - a lot of the basic orientation of the people of the region is familial-tribal. Nationhood, which evolved in Europe over a long and bloody period, also dominated by religious schisms, has been to an imposed on the area by external colonial powers or internal dictatorial powers.

It is easy to predict success or failure and then cavil or crow as events proceed. But it is far more interesting to find a moral human thread through this mess and try to see how things might be put or kept together.

After all, the sandiest desert wanderer, the raw Iraqi recruit with distrust for the very people who handed him his new uniform, the kid who is stuck in a basement memorizing the words of the prophet, and the kid from Nebraska who is seeing the world through the dusty window of a Humvee, all are made from the same basic stuff.

Doesn't anyone believe in miracles any more?

I do. I have to.

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 May 05 - 10:56 AM

re the finger pointing on this thread, whatever the title, dianavan was asking for another point of view, as well as the one she'd just heard. i dont think her interest in understanding things is racist - her intentions are not for someone else to interpret - and her questions are worth asking.

we are lucky our arguments happen in cyberspace - some people are having their legs blown off.

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 May 05 - 11:48 AM

Several points arise out of this question, which, as others have said, is not well thought out.

1. Sunnis and Shiites are not better or worse, merely different, and when the people who are trying to instal a democratic regime finally realise how great that difference is, there may be some small chance of starting a process of compromise which might be acceptable to both.

2. It is not the American people who have all that blood on their hands, but the hawks among their political leaders. They do not seem to realise that being told what to do by a foreign force of occupation is essentially as bad, or worse, than being ruled by a dictator, who at least belongs in their country.

3. The world is indeed much more complicated than western politicians believe, and the results of misunderstanding national, and religious, characteristics are so disastrous, that no such action as this should ever be taken, unless the initiator is prepared to deal long term with the consequences.

The United States seems likely to pay an enormous cost in blood for the removal of an enemy, and I fear that the only outcome will be the creation of more enemies in his place.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 05 - 12:14 PM

Just how exactly are the Vietnamese people the enemies of the American people? Or the Iraqis the enemies of the American people?

Those people are not my enemies.

If you aren't taking a strong a stand against the war, you are standing for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 May 05 - 12:17 PM

Damn right, Guest. Pro Bush/Blair = Anti peace.

That's the bottom line, whether they like it or not.

DT

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 May 05 - 12:19 PM

if youre not signing your name, your not taking a strong stand against the war, you're standing for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 05 - 12:36 PM

Now there is some great logic freda. Posting anon in an internet chat forum is the moral equivalent of being pro-war. Sure it is. With logic like that, we don't need enemies cuz dey iz uz.

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 May 05 - 12:41 PM

how can it be a strong stand when you won't sign your name to it?

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 05 - 12:54 PM

I just posted the lyrics to the song NO MORE WAR! It is an anonymous composition, as much traditional song is.

But hey, what you say makes perfect sense, especially in a chat forum dedicated to traditional music--music written and composed by thousands of anons.

So, all those anonymously composed songs don't mean nothin' in your world of logic, eh freda dear?

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 May 05 - 12:56 PM

goodnight guest!

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 05 - 01:01 PM

Aw freda, taking yer ball and runnin' home to mum with yer tail between yer legs just because I made ya look like a wee eejit?

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: dianavan
Date: 01 May 05 - 01:08 PM

I apologize for any misunderstanding that has been caused by the title of this thread.

I was referring to Sunni or Shiite governments. I was posing the question to a man from Iran who does not belong to either religion. Basically, I was asking him which he considered to be the most oppressive of the two. I was referring to political power in the hands of different Muslim factions. This was in the context of an eventual, American withdrawl.

I was especially curious to know how the Kurds fit into the equation and whether or not they had any chance to maintain a political voice once the Americans left.

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 May 05 - 04:38 PM

"The only Arab country with a significant minority of Shiites is Iran's next door neighbor, Iraq. So what about Lebanon, GUEST, Cunningham, where most of the Muslim population are Shiites? (All right, as the majority group, that means they aren't "a significant minority" of Muslims, but of course there are also Christians , so the Shiites are a minority of Lebanese. A pretty significant one too.

I wish people would check up things like that before posting dogmatic statements of alleged facts which just aren't so. It's pretty easy to do that, thanks to our Internet toys. (The same for freda underhill's "In Afghanistan, Shias are the majority, in Iraq, they are the minority." No. It's precisely the other way round. But I suspect that might have been a typing error.)

"Comments are free but facts are sacred."

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: dianavan
Date: 01 May 05 - 05:40 PM

Robo - What you said makes the most sense to me.

"There are ethnic divisions of long standing: Turkomans, Kurds, Arabs, Persians. There are levels at which they will cooperate, levels at which they will collaborate, and at levels below which there is distrust. All revolve around mostly clear points of common interest.

One of the points of common interest is that most of 'em don't like being occupied. Would you?

Next questions -

Will the Kurds, Arabs and Persians be able to sustain a lasting peace without international peace-keeping efforts and massive efforts to rebuild a war torn Iraq? Will the U.S. remain or will they withdraw and leave it to the international community to maintain peace?   

Yes, Joe - There are many who are educated but not enough to control the many rebel factions that have religious and tribal loyalties.

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: Peace
Date: 01 May 05 - 05:54 PM

"Aw freda, taking yer ball and runnin' home to mum with yer tail between yer legs just because I made ya look like a wee eejit?"

Hey, dipshit, how ya doin'?

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 May 05 - 06:51 PM

So which GUESTs were you, brucie? And which was the post you reckon was so devastating?

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 May 05 - 06:52 PM

thanks, Kevin, you're right, I did mean it the other way round!

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: GUEST,Peter Woodruff
Date: 01 May 05 - 07:01 PM

Who is worse-Sunnis or Shiites? What a question. Niether! Neo-con Bushites are worse by far.

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: Peace
Date: 01 May 05 - 07:06 PM

"So which GUESTs were you, brucie? And which was the post you reckon was so devastating?"

I do not post as GUEST, buddy. Shove that and the implication.

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: Peace
Date: 01 May 05 - 07:10 PM

And in return, which were YOU, Kevin?

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: GUEST,Peter Woodruff
Date: 01 May 05 - 07:16 PM

Hey Brucie!
   I'm a guest here but I used to be wdyat12. I lost my status after some cencored threads and posts. Be very careful or you will become a guest like me.

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: Peace
Date: 01 May 05 - 07:19 PM

Life has it's moments, doesn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: Peace
Date: 01 May 05 - 07:20 PM

. . . and bad punctuation. ITS moments.

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: GUEST,Peter Woodruff
Date: 01 May 05 - 07:22 PM

When you're a guest you can get away with it.

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: GUEST,Peter Woodruff
Date: 01 May 05 - 07:34 PM

BS: Who is worse-Sunnis, Shiites, or Bushites?

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: GUEST,Peter Woodruff
Date: 01 May 05 - 07:39 PM

BS: Who are worse- Sunnis, Shiites, or Bushites? There brucie!
"Why is our children not learning?" George W. Bush.

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: Peace
Date: 01 May 05 - 07:58 PM

Well, ya ol' brown noser, at least John Hardly won't castigate you for not attributing your Bush quote.

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 May 05 - 08:40 PM

I was surprised brucie, since I hadn't you down as one of the unnamed faceless ones; but you seemed to be referring to a previous post you'd made on this thread, and there wasn't one as brucie. On looking again I note your quotation marks, which I had missed seeing.

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: Peace
Date: 01 May 05 - 08:42 PM

Then please accept my apologies, Kevin.

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: Peace
Date: 01 May 05 - 08:46 PM

I have and will on occasion post as GUEST, but seldom for a nefarious purpose. I prefer controversial things I say to be seen as coming from me. The GUEST I quoted had slagged Freda Underhill. She didn't deserve that, IMO. This particular GUEST has seldom had anything good to say to, for or about anyone. Thus the bad language. Looking back, I see I didn't make myself clear. Pardon my post to you if you'd be so kind.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: GUEST,Peter Woodruff
Date: 01 May 05 - 10:09 PM

brucie, You prefer "controversial things?" I'll give you controversial things to ponder. How about wars that need not be fought?

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 01 May 05 - 10:18 PM

"In Palestine at least, Sunni and Shiite get along just fine as long as there is nothing to exacerbate matters. " Mack/misophist.

However, the classic way to unite people is against other people, and this has been know, and used by demonouges of all colours, such as the late and not-at-all-lamented Yasser Arafat

Without Israel, would Palestinians fight far more amongst themselves? IMHO, I think so. Is there a nation with a peaceful Sunni and Shiite population, that does not have such a large outside influence?

Bunnhabhain

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: Peace
Date: 01 May 05 - 10:18 PM

That's most of 'em, Peter. Nothin' controversial about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: GUEST,Peter Woodruff
Date: 01 May 05 - 10:27 PM

brucie,
   The most controversial thing in my life right now is getting some sleep so I will be worth a day's pay tomorrow. However, If you mention Bushites again, I shall not get any sleep. G'nigh.

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: number 6
Date: 01 May 05 - 10:35 PM

And I repeat .... "We wouldn't get wrapped up in a angry spin that that has no end."

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Who is worse - Sunnis or Shiites
From: GUEST,Dan McLeod
Date: 02 May 05 - 01:57 AM

Religion.

If you have persuded yourself that there is some supreme being who made everything, you can persuade yourself that this supreme being wants you to slaughter your neighbours.