Tech: Problem with thread titles?

Subject: Tech: Problem with thread titles?
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 May 05 - 05:15 AM

Patrick Street in Ireland

Is there perhaps a technicial problem with creating thread titles that needs addressing? The above thread for example - has a title different to the one that appears against the individual post (in the thread itself).

I have noticed that - if before you submit it - you try to correct the first title chosen - it is this first one that tends to apppear?

Of course it may be just me - but if not - can this be addressed?

And would it be possible to have more space provided for the titles?

This may help to enable posters to place more informative thread titles and avoid the need for anyone else to impose any change the title chosen by the originator.

Subject: No problem here
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 May 05 - 07:26 AM

Each time a person posts, they have the option of giving their individual posting a different title, as I've just done with mine. This enables folks to use such things as LYR ADD, TECH, etc. when they want to interject an off-shoot, etc. to a specific thread.

Subject: I never knew you could do that.
From: John O'L
Date: 02 May 05 - 07:28 AM

I never knew you could do that.

Thanks Kat

Subject: RE: Tech: Problem with thread titles?
From: GUEST,One of the JoeClones
Date: 02 May 05 - 10:23 AM

There are actually two different kinds of titles. Threads have titles, and messages have titles. The message title is, by default, the same as the thread title, unless you change it at the time you post your message. 99.99% of the time, people don't bother to change it. Like you, they probably don't know they can change it, or don't see any point in changing it.

The message titles—also known as "subject lines"—are used mainly by the JoeClones, who have the power to change them after the message has been posted. If you post the lyrics to a song, and a JoeClone happens to see it, he or she will probably change the message title so that it contains the song title. This is very useful because the thread title often doesn't contain the song title. Many people request lyrics without knowing the correct song title. Sometimes several related songs with different titles are posted in one thread.

Message titles can be searched. Go to the drop-down menu at the very top of the page—the one that at first says "Quick Links"—and select "Old Adv. Forum Search." On the new page that comes up, type a song title into in the "Subject" box and click "Search." It will bring up all the messages that have that in the title, even if the message title is different from the thread title.

Subject: RE: Tech: Problem with thread titles?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 May 05 - 10:40 AM

And the message title displays on Supersearch so it's easy to find the posts with lyrics added-- when the poster or a clone has made that easy for me.

~S~

Subject: RE: Tech: Problem with thread titles?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 02 May 05 - 10:49 AM

I have noticed that - if before you submit it - you try to correct the first title chosen - it is this first one that tends to apppear?

Of course it may be just me - but if not - can this be addressed?

Easy solution is already available:
(1) Save the message
(2) Leave the submit menue without submitting
(3) Enter afresh via the 'Start new thread' option
(4) Enter the title you now want to appear
(5) Paste the saved message
(6) Check title to see if it fits your present state of mind
(7) If yes, hit submit
(8) If no, go to (1)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Tech: Problem with thread titles?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 May 05 - 11:49 AM

We've tried longer thread titles, but it gives fits to people who try to access Mudcat through WEBTV and a number of other TV-based services. We have quite a number of WEBTV users.

The ability to change message titles is a nice feature. In threads like our School Songbook Index, we can have a general title for the thread, plus a separate title for each songbook we index.

And as was said above, we formate message titles that contain lyrics, so that they contain ADD and the song title, plus the songwriter name if there's space. This makes a big difference when reviewing search results.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Tech: Problem with thread titles?
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 May 05 - 12:57 PM

Is this forum being designed for the the general public to post their contributions - for the benefit of Mudcat nerds (bless em)?

I have been creating threads here for many years and most of this is news to me so I suspect it will come as a surprise to many others. Perhaps it is all getting a little too complicated for us ordinary Joes?

Subject: RE: Tech: Problem with thread titles?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 02 May 05 - 01:03 PM

"people who try to access Mudcat through WEBTV"

Once again, coding for the lowest of the low...

Subject: RE: Tech: Problem with thread titles?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 02 May 05 - 01:13 PM

Is this forum being designed for the the general public to post their contributions - for the benefit of Mudcat nerds (bless em)?

I have been creating threads here for many years and most of this is news to me so I suspect it will come as a surprise to many others. Perhaps it is all getting a little too complicated for us ordinary Joes?

Shambles, this basic Mudcat design was a Cold Fusion tutorial which has been extended over the years. The threads and subject titles date back to that old Cold Fusion program. They are not a Mudcat addition from any time.

Subject: RE: Tech: Problem with thread titles?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 02 May 05 - 01:16 PM

Original Code here.

Subject: RE: Tech: Problem with thread titles?
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 02 May 05 - 01:17 PM

and the information re: thread titles and message titles has been available for a LONG LONG time.

Subject: RE: Tech: Problem with thread titles?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 May 05 - 01:20 PM

Oh yeah, I been here since 2000, and that was always an option. I learned about it when I read the guidelines on how to post lyrics.

~S~

Subject: RE: Tech: Problem with thread titles?
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 May 05 - 01:37 PM

My point is proved - it would appear?

Subject: RE: Tech: Problem with thread titles?
From: Jeri
Date: 02 May 05 - 01:45 PM

Shambles, the really simple answers are:

1) If thread titles were longer, some people wouldn't be able to read them, and

5) If you could change a thread title by changing a message title, there wouldn't really be a reason for titles at all,

Does that make sense?

Subject: RE: Tech: Problem with thread titles?
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 May 05 - 01:51 PM

Mostly but.

5) If you could change a thread title by changing a message title, there wouldn't really be a reason for titles at all

Do posters actually read 'message titles'?

Would they even notice if they couldn't be changed?

Subject: RE: Tech: Problem with thread titles?
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 02 May 05 - 01:51 PM

My point is proved (Shambles)

Which point?

You had three questions which have been answered.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Tech: Problem with thread titles?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 02 May 05 - 01:54 PM

Jeri, it will only make sense to shambles if he can twist and turn it to suit himself. That's all he is looking for.

He had said "I have been creating threads here for many years and most of this is news to me[...]

He had answers that disprove that, and mine was tech... so now his point was not that the things were new but techy people.... who even dare to post in a thread that Shambles opened "Tech"...

Subject: RE: Tech: Problem with thread titles?
From: Zhenya
Date: 02 May 05 - 02:20 PM

Subject: RE: Tech: Problem with thread titles?
From: Zhenya
Date: 02 May 05 - 02:21 PM

That blank post was a mistake. Sorry!
Zhenya

Subject: RE: Tech: Problem with shambles
From: GUEST
Date: 02 May 05 - 02:24 PM

yes

Subject: RE: Tech: Problem with thread titles?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 May 05 - 02:43 PM

If the message-titling feature is news to anyone, it only means that they didn't read the FAQ on how lyrics shold be added. It's not a sign that there is a conspiracy by those who DO follow that request. I forget to follow it many times, myself, because I am focused more on the transfer from the word processor program, bold-formatting the song title in my post, being sure it lined up right and included all the numbering for the verses, and so forth. I am always delighted when someone cleans up the message title for me, when I do forget.

As I work on the Spirituals permathread, I am even MORE appreciative when this is done, because bringing all those songs together is MUCH harder when the song titles are NOT clear in Supersearch.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Tech: Problem with thread titles?
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 May 05 - 06:05 AM

Subject: RE: Objection to Bawdy Song Titles in Forum Menu
From: The Shambles - PM
Date: 05 May 05 - 05:41 AM
You're probably right, Roger. I think my thread title editing box has a three or four more spaces than the thread creation box has. The number of spaces is somewhat arbitrary.
-Joe Offer-

A lot of things regarding censorship here - are somewhat arbitrary. Joe - am I right or am I just probably right? For it is indeed a fact that I cannot squeeze your longer (imposed) thread title into the box.

If I am right - perhaps if us ordinary posters were given - even the extra three or four spaces that appears to be available to you and your anonymous volunteers - more informative thread titles could be given by ordinary posters?

This measure would perhaps help ensure that there was liitle need or excuse for you or your anonymous volunteers to impose longer thread titles upon fellow posters, without the originator's knowledge or permission?

Subject: RE: Tech: Problem with thread titles?
From: GUEST,WYSIWYG
Date: 05 May 05 - 10:25 AM

Joe Offer,

Remember the time I needed another character or two squeezed into a thread title, and you helped me out? Thanks. I'm glad you are able to do that.

I'm also glad we HAVE a limit on thread title lengths, and I don't care how it was calculated. Just having it encourages me to be as concise as possible.

In my five years or so as a member, there has only been ONE occasion that I can recall, where the title length has been too short for what needed to be included for the title to make sense. Even in the Spirituals, which sometimes have LONG song titles I want to clarify with a second partial title-- it's working just fine.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Tech: Problem with thread titles?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 May 05 - 11:58 AM

Shambles, Joe is probably a little vague as he doesn't set these things. Joe is not a programmer. Why not ask Max? He can change it.

As for the width. The limit set on the create new thread form is set at 40 but I've seen a couple of thread titles set at 50 and the field might be even wider.

I would hazzard a guess that the reason for this discrepancy (and perhaps others going by what Joe said, ie. "arbitary") is one of ommission rather than intention, ie. the field was widened,the volunteer form was updated but the forum page was fotgotten about - believe me it is quite easy (not) to do that.

Subject: RE: Tech: Problem with thread titles?
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 May 05 - 02:44 PM

Easy solution is already available:
(1) Save the message
(2) Leave the submit menue without submitting
(3) Enter afresh via the 'Start new thread' option
(4) Enter the title you now want to appear
(5) Paste the saved message
(6) Check title to see if it fits your present state of mind
(7) If yes, hit submit
(8) If no, go to (1)

This is a solution certainly. I am not sure that it is 'easy' or the best one........

Subject: RE: Tech: Problem with thread titles?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 11 May 05 - 08:03 AM

Shambles,

did you really not see that I made it look very complicated on purpose in mockery of your style of posting?

So here's the two-step solution for you:

(1) Save the message
(2) Insert it into the thread with the new title

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Tech: Problem with thread titles?
From: GUEST,Uncle DaveO
Date: 11 May 05 - 12:02 PM

I'm with Susan (WYSIWYG), in that I think a fairly short limit on thread titles is good. It's not hard to give a thumbnail idea of what's in the initial thread in the space that is given. Takes a bit of thought sometimes, though.

But the thread title doesn't have to give all that much information. If the limit were longer it would just encourage those who don't want to think to get wordier, and they would still run out of room. The content of the thread should be in the first post, not in the title.

Oh. And I've been on Mudcat since '91, I think it was, and though I've never read the FAQ, I had observed the unchangeability of a submitted thread title and (conversely) the customizableness of the message title, long ago. Just a matter of paying attention.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Tech: Problem with thread titles?
From: GUEST,jOhn
Date: 11 May 05 - 12:14 PM

I think Shambles is just jelous that joe is able to make thread titles with 4 more characters than Shambles is.And he just wanted another excuse to make trubble=
"Joe can make longer threads than me, and its not fair, blar, blar, blar etc, etc,etc."
Shambles is now laid on the floor throwing a tantrum, throwing his arms and legs about and crying.

Subject: RE: Tech: Problem with thread titles?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 05 - 04:16 PM

Every once in a while, I run across an all-new example of how minute a thing somebody in the world can get his or her thong in a knot over.

Subject: RE: Tech: Problem with thread titles?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 04:25 PM

refresh

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Tech: Problem with thread titles?
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 07:26 AM

The following thread has been relegated to the BS section of our forum and then closed by persons unknown and for reasons unknown - as there was no editing comment of explanation provided.

TECH Longer thread titles please

This action was imposed on our forum partly because my friend Wolfgang (for reasons of his own) having seen the now closed thread - decided to refresh this older thread.

Interesting that a year ago in this earlier thread - longer thread titles were thought not to be good idea by our 'moderators' as some posters would have difficulty reading them.

As our 'moderators' are still able to and are now imposing longer thread titles without the knowledge and permission of the thread's originator and this is now described by them as 'assistance' - the fact that some posters may not be able to read these new titles does not now seem to be concern.

Perhaps all posters can be given the same amount of characters as our 'moderators' currently have to enable everyone to create longer thread titles?

Then there will be little need for this 'assistance' to be imposed without the poster's knowledge or permission and our 'moderator's' time will then be freed-up to enable them to do the things that they currently claim they do not have the time for?

Whatever our 'modertator's may wish to impose to the contributions of others - and no matter how many characters posters may or may not have available in the future - perhaps it can be accepted that there will always be a limit to the amount of information that can be fitted in to a thread title?

And as there can be many judgements made about what information should be in a title - perhaps it can finally be accepted that the only judgement that really and finally matters in this regard - is not that of the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team, their known or anonymous helpers - but that of the thread's originator? And they should always be consulted if any change to their thread title is judged to be required

Closed threads and deleted posts

Subject: RE: Tech: Problem with thread titles?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 09:30 AM

Holy fuck Shambles... Would you ever get half a clue?

Subject: RE: Tech: Problem with long thread titles?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 09:39 AM

It's sometimes a minor annoyance to me when composing a title & its not always possible to condense a question etc

Subject: RE: Tech: Problem with thread titles?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 10:09 AM

Mr. Happy, I also have had that happen, and it's no problem-- you think what would fit if you did have another 5 characters, and go to the Help Forum and suggest that version of your title if they can fit it in. I've done that and gotten wonderful cooperation. Sometimes, what they have done with the title is similar to what I proposed, but even better.

Whether it's been a thread title change or any other request in the Help Forum, a reasonable request with some indication of WHY I'm asking for the particular change has always resulted in a helpful, cooperative response from our Creative Clones.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Tech: Problem with thread titles?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 10:23 AM

The following thread has been relegated to the BS section of our forum and then closed by persons unknown and for reasons unknown - as there was no editing comment of explanation provided.

TECH Longer thread titles please

This action was imposed on our forum partly because my friend Wolfgang (for reasons of his own) having seen the now closed thread - decided to refresh this older thread. (Shambles)

Don't you realise what a nonsense you post, Shambles? It is difficult to tell from afar whether you have a problem with the Englsig language or whether you have one with clear thinking.

If you write in the first line "for reasons unknown" you can't in any meaningful way use the word "because" in the third line for that word implies that you have knowledge of a causal connection. You can't have it both ways.
If you want to write "for reasons unknown" you have to use the word "after" instead of "because".
If, however, you want to use the word "because" you could have written for istance "for reasons unspecified". Okay?

So what did you want to tell us?

Wolfgang (in a helpful mood)

Subject: RE: Tech: Problem with thread titles?
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 02:58 PM

I do not understand - sorry Wolfgang - can you use bullet points to make your posts easier for us to read?


I've done that and gotten wonderful cooperation. Sometimes, what they have done with the title is similar to what I proposed, but even better.

Susan - don't you think our 'moderators' have more important demands on the busy work-loads than composing thread titles for you?

Are not posters are pefectly able to create their own titles?

And as the use of the edit button is confined to our 'moderators' pehaps you should allow them to concentrate their efforts using this abilty for purposes that us ordinary posters cannot do? Like imposing their judgement and anonymously moving and 'silently deleting' our posts and closing threads and finding many noble-sounding justifications for this.

Such is the need of some of them for control over every aspect of our forum now - I have the impression that (some of) our 'moderators' would be quite happy - to be left not to only compose all of thread titles but to write all of the contents in all of the posts and threads.

Perhaps it is better for us not to encourage them in this?

Subject: RE: Tech: Problem with thread titles?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 03:44 PM

Actually, given my tendency to verbosity, I have no doubt that whatever technical limit there might be, I'd probably tend to want longer titles than possible. I'm quite happy the way it is, as I have said numerous times, and as you know. Stop trying to twist my posts into apparent harmony with your notions, Shambles.

~Susan