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Paper Sizes (of music)

Nigel Parsons 03 May 05 - 05:53 PM
Mitch the Bass 03 May 05 - 06:17 PM
greg stephens 03 May 05 - 06:23 PM
Nigel Parsons 03 May 05 - 06:28 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 03 May 05 - 06:28 PM
Nigel Parsons 03 May 05 - 06:37 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 03 May 05 - 07:54 PM
open mike 03 May 05 - 08:20 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 03 May 05 - 08:56 PM
Gypsy 03 May 05 - 10:31 PM
JohnInKansas 04 May 05 - 03:39 AM
treewind 04 May 05 - 04:11 AM
GUEST,leeneia 04 May 05 - 10:13 AM
M.Ted 04 May 05 - 09:39 PM
Bob Bolton 05 May 05 - 12:19 AM
GUEST,Mike Russell 13 Nov 13 - 12:23 PM
GUEST 14 Nov 13 - 09:13 AM
Dave Sutherland 14 Nov 13 - 10:10 AM
Nigel Parsons 14 Nov 13 - 11:14 AM
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Subject: Paper Sizes (of music)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 May 05 - 05:53 PM

I'm sure we're all aware of the size of a piece of A4, or A5.
I can picture them, and recognise them when I see them, but couldn't quote exact dimensions without checking!

But sheet music comes in many sizes, and a couple of old pieces I've recently picked up seem to evade description. So my thought was that this called for a thread to establish what,if anything, is the correct description of various sizes of sheet music, song books, etc.,

So to start the ball rolling, is there a standard description for the following paper sizes?
20¼" wide by 14" high. (This is measured at the open centre page, i.e. a double page)
19" width * 12¼" height (also to the open double page)

And if anyone does know the correct terminology, what else can we add to the list?

My personal preference would be to keep the discussion in Imperial, but for the benefit of all, the two sizes noted above are:
515mm * 355mm
480mm * 310mm


Nigel


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Subject: RE: Paper Sizes (of music)
From: Mitch the Bass
Date: 03 May 05 - 06:17 PM

See
http://www.sizes.com/materls/paper19eng.htm
and
http://www.jcdecaux.fi/design/paper_sizes.jsp

but neither identifies the sizes you mention

Mitch


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Subject: RE: Paper Sizes (of music)
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 May 05 - 06:23 PM

What an interesting question, Nigel. I hope someone comes up with some answers. I've got something you would love, an old box of music paper, some extremely old, that i got in a shop. And it is in all sorts of sizes and shapes imaginable, and all unused. One day, when I am old and malicious, and have figured out the formula for old ink and practised the writing, I am going to use the oldest bits to forge ancient manuscripts of non-existent tunes to fool other scholars who have annoyed me. But perhaps for now I should measure the sheets and post their sizes on this thread.` maybe I'll look them out tomorrow.
I hope some answers appear to your question.


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Subject: RE: Paper Sizes (of music)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 May 05 - 06:28 PM

Thanks Mitch,

I did try a google first, with no success.

The two sizes I mention above are for "Danny Boy" (Printed 1918)
& "The Floral Dance" (printed 1911)

Nigel


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Subject: RE: Paper Sizes (of music)
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 03 May 05 - 06:28 PM

What a peculiar idea for a thread. I like it.

Along with the measurements - the year of publication.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: Paper Sizes (of music)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 May 05 - 06:37 PM

Who needs watermarks?
I've got the Garg Seal of Approval!


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Subject: RE: Paper Sizes (of music)
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 03 May 05 - 07:54 PM

On the first link given above, your first size is close to that listed under Printing Papers 20.5x14 is Short demy for music.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Paper Sizes (of music)
From: open mike
Date: 03 May 05 - 08:20 PM

most paper here in the u.s. is standard size
(for notebooks, computer printers, etc.)
8 1/2 " X 11" (or "legal" size = 8 1/2 X 14"--
guess that's cuz lawyers need more space cuz they use
more words to say the same thing??)
i noticed that some copies sent me recently from UK
were different size and did not fit in my note book..

i think there is an office of standardization that
decides on these sizes. At least in Sweden there is.

probably other countries too, but no standardization
between countries, apparantly.


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Subject: RE: Paper Sizes (of music)
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 03 May 05 - 08:56 PM

You would think ????............

that The Library of Congress or The Digital Consortium http://digital.library.ucla.edu/sheetmusic/

would include such details with their beautifuly scanned images???? It would make forgery so much easier.

1909 Wacky Hula Hicky Dula 21 3/4 X13 3/4 =54cm X35cm

1914 Nadja 21 3/8 X13 1/2 = 53cm X 34.3

1915 Hicky Hoy 21 1/2 X 13 3/4 = 54cm X 35cm

1923 Carolina Mammy 18 X12 1/8 = 45.8cm X 30.4cm

1943 Paper Doll 17 3/8 X 12 = 45cm X 30cm

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: Paper Sizes (of music)
From: Gypsy
Date: 03 May 05 - 10:31 PM

I would vote for ALL sheet music being of one size! And short tunes should not run over to the backside of the page. Just check out the Fiddlers Fakebook to understand some of my frustration.


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Subject: RE: Paper Sizes (of music)
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 04 May 05 - 03:39 AM

Debates about standard sizes of office paper are not likely to lead to any real understanding of music paper sizes.

The key to understanding music paper is that "if it's folded it's a book." If it's printed with multiple pages on a single sheet, and then folded and trimmed before delivery, you need to look at standard book sizes rather than at office paper sizes.

Book Sizes makes it all crystal clear.

Be my guest.

John


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Subject: RE: Paper Sizes (of music)
From: treewind
Date: 04 May 05 - 04:11 AM

8.5 x 11 "letter" size is only used in the US and Canada.

The rest of the world uses ISO 216 sizes (A0 to A6 for paper, B sizes for book and C sizes for envelopes) There's a good summary here, including references to uncut paper sizes for folding into books.

That music paper and some other old imperial book and other sizes are listed here

Music


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Subject: RE: Paper Sizes (of music)
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 04 May 05 - 10:13 AM

I have a number of books for recorder, from the 1930's and up. The 21 books come in 11 different sizes. Apparently there was no standardization until recently.


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Subject: RE: Paper Sizes (of music)
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 May 05 - 09:39 PM

The trim size for sheet music is often idiosyncratic--meaning that it is peculiar to the printer, and often to the piece itself. I think that there are some standard sizes that you run across a lot, but there are lots of non-standard sizes. Lots of material is printed in non-standard sizes--the paper sheet sizes may come in standard sizes, but you can trim pieces to any size you want--


One reason that you might cut a piece to a special size is because the end use requires it--music is often printed on as large a sheet as possible because it is read from a much greater distance than
a book, magazine, or newspaper. It also is often printed in sizes that are convenient to hold while performing.

Another reason that pieces are printed in special sizes is to create visual interest. Sheet music is "Self-Advertising", meaning that it is designed to capture the attention of the potential buyer, so this is a factor, too.

Also, because music is used repeatedly, and over a number of years, special kinds of paper are used --that are more durable,that are more readable, that don't yellow, etc. Unusual types of paper often come in idiosyncratic sheet sizes--

So there you have some good reasons why music comes in a lot of different sizes..I suddenly remember another, and that is that some publishers deliberately cut pieces a little bit smaller than others so that they will always be stacked on top of the pile--


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Subject: RE: Paper Sizes (of music)
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 05 May 05 - 12:19 AM

G'day Nigel,

Looking at the first of Mitch's links confirms my first reaction: your "... 20¼" wide by 14" high ... measured at the open centre page, i.e. a double page)..." is pretty much a trimmed half Imperial, i.e. music that was printed 2-up (four sheets to a side) onto Imperial's 29½"× 21½", folded twice (to 21½" x 14¾") then trimmed ¾" on each of three sides.

Unless you come across uncut examples of music - printed as weekly (or some other interval) part-works - to be bound by the subscriber's local bookbinder ... you won't find sheet music in full correspondence with the original sheet sizes.

Regards,

Bob


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Subject: RE: Paper Sizes (of music)
From: GUEST,Mike Russell
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 12:23 PM

I'm printing a standard musical score using standard American paper sizes. The consensus of this thread, and my own research, is that each double sheet should be 20 1/4" x 14" high, or 10 1/8 x 14 for each single sheet. The nearest common American paper size is 11 x 17. I've instructed Sibelius to arrange on a custom paper size of 10 x 14. I "print" it to a pdf file, which maintains those dimensions. I use Acrobat to view and print the pdf file. Acrobat can be told that the actual paper size is 11 x 17, and it will center the print and provide cut marks. I "print" that output to a second pdf file. The second pdf file prints as-is at Kinko's for a few dollars. I manually trim the paper myself. Acrobat will also output to double size paper if desired for booklet format, automatically ordering the pages correctly. It sounds inelegant but it's actually quite easy to do and very inexpensive. The result is indistinguishable from professional printing.


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Subject: RE: Paper Sizes (of music)
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 09:13 AM

This must be the most boring thread yet


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Subject: RE: Paper Sizes (of music)
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 10:10 AM

Going back to my years in the paper trade in 60s and 70s if a sheet size is not a recognised cut then it is refered to as a bastard size.


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Subject: RE: Paper Sizes (of music)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 11:14 AM

Just as a file or rasp somewhere between coarse & smooth is referred to as a bastard file.


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