Cwm Rhondda Why?

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 04 Nov 14 - 03:40 PM

On the Perfect debate, the key is in the second part, "fect". That is derivative from the Latin "fectus", the past participle of "facere", to make. "Made": the "per" prefix indicates a "proper job"'s been done on it. That being said, although it's technically a verb, the participle behaves and is used as an adjective, and can be used by extension as a noun: we find, for example, the "perfects" as the leaders of the gnostic Cathar creeds in the Albigenisan Crusades of the thirteenth-fourteenth centuries.

Thus, it's impossible to say what form it right: in computing terms, we'd call the definition "overloaded" with alternative meanings differentiated by context.

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: RTim
Date: 04 Nov 14 - 09:10 AM

Although an Englishman through and through - this is one of my favourite sounds in the whole world, sung on the best stage in the world! If it doesn't move you - nothing will.

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AM4mIlYKG9s

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: GUEST,squeezeboxhp
Date: 04 Nov 14 - 07:57 AM

also sings very well to the words of O My Darling Clementine.

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Nov 14 - 07:15 AM

Following this semantic drift: I recall an advertising slogan that went something like, "You might think it impossible to improve on perfection, but we have done it with our new [whatever it was]!". It's from from Dorothy L Sayers' "Murder Must Advertise", which is set in an ad agency & based on memories of her own work with Benson's, where she invented the Colman's "Mustard Club" and the Guinness Toucan & other animal ads; in which case it could well have been a real slogan she remembered from then.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 04 Nov 14 - 06:11 AM

Yes, but isn't it a shortening. (No doubt there is a posh word - elision?). If you can have a nearly perfect union, then you can have a more nearly perfect union, and it should be obvious that 'nearly' is implied.

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Nov 14 - 05:55 AM

perFECT is, as you noted, a verb.
You can aim to perFECT the union, but "to form a more perfect union" is clearly using the adjective. As such, The Duck is right, and safire is talking through the back of his neck.

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 05:09 PM

There is DEFINITELY summat wrong with the Cat, i spent heaven know how long producing a simple list of versions for people to compare, nothing even vaguely contentious, and it's gone.

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: Airymouse
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 10:51 AM

I remember a TV program in which Barbara Walters got in a debate with Justice Scalia over the death penalty - Barbara was hopelessly outmatched. My confronting Safire about an issue of English grammar would put me in the same situation. Besides I hold a clear bias against the Duck and for Safire. In fact I feel a bit silly defending Safire, because I know he would do a much better job. The constitution is basically a legal document, and lawyers use the verb perFECT in Safire's secondary sense: to perFECT a deed does not mean that you make it PERfect. Furthermore, I presume the founding fathers and mothers were intelligent educated people who put considerable effort in to the preamble, so it seems unlikely that an obvious false comparative would escape notice.
P.S. As an afterthought it seems that the notion that Job was a perfect man does not jibe with original sin. I am not open to discussion of this idea, because as it happens I do not believe either side is right.

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 09:48 AM

Sorry, that's still a NO.
The primary meaning of the noun, pronounced PERfect, is "complete, whole, finished," Something which is not complete, whole, or finished, is incomplete, partial, or unfinished. Each of those (complete, whole, finished) is also an absolute. (although I will accept that a 'finished' item can be given a second or better 'finish')

But I'm open to counter-discussion.

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: Airymouse
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 09:17 AM

Here is a quote from William Safire. I have found that he is almost never right about politics and almost always right about the English language. Note that he shares your view about "almost unique."
Most people take the noun perfect to mean "flawless, faultless, impeccable," as in the King James translation of God's description of Job as "a perfect and an upright man." In that absolute sense, the Founders would seem to have been mistaken to modify the noun perfect with more; either something is perfect or it is not; you cannot say "more perfect" any more than "more unique."

The primary meaning of the noun, pronounced PERfect, is "complete, whole, finished," and the verb taking that action, pronounced perFECT, means "to complete, make whole, finish." That is why "to form a more perfect Union" is correct; the Founders (formerly Founding Fathers, but that leaves out Abigail) were working toward the completion of the Union and not claiming to be able to finish, to perFECT, the work.
My Random House College dictionary has cwm, crwth, fjord but not strewth. My impression is that the w in twice is not a vowel, because you have to use your lips to form it, but I defer to anyone who knows.

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 07:51 AM

From:Airymouse- PM
Date: 02 Nov 14 - 08:48 AM
As you can probably guess my teacher, whom we called "The Duck," was rather weird. He thought (incorrectly) that "in order to form a more perfect union" was a false comparative,
Sorry, I'm with "The Duck" on this one. "Perfect" is absolute. If something is perfect it cannot become more perfect.

As usage of english goes, this use is "almost unique" :)

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: Helen
Date: 02 Nov 14 - 01:53 PM

Hi all,

Very interesting thread!

Sian, I smiled when I saw this, because my Grandmother was born in Pontypridd in 1901, four years before Cwm Rhondda was written.

"From: sian, west wales
"Date: 04 May 05 - 05:45 PM

Cwm Rhondda: originally called "Rhondda", written for a Baptist Gymanfa Ganu, Pontypridd 1905"

And Gray D, how I wish I could have been involved in a Gymanfa Ganu like that!

One of the best memories I have of high school is the whole school of over 1000 girls singing Alleluia in a 4 part round. The music teacher was a genius - literally, in my opinion - and she organised for every music class to practice the harmonies for weeks.

When the big day came it was beautiful beyond belief. Her choir arrangements were brilliant too. I usually cried when her senior choir sang.

This was in the state of New South Wales, Australia, so a little bit of connection to Wales, as well as this area being a coal mining valley.

Helen

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 02 Nov 14 - 01:18 PM

Leadfingers obviously is short of Brains: why promote Amstel mass-market tiddle when you can equally well promote Adnams, who support the folk scene, or fiddle around to back Meridian, whose boss performs on it.

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 14 - 10:27 AM

Well, cwm, crwth and fjord aren't English words at all, we spell them coombe, strewth and fiord. But of course we're so flexible that almost any foreign word retains it's original spelling until it gets naturalised. Except goulash, because we don't like the original Hung Aryan "ghoul hash".

What's wrong with "twice" as a vowel w?

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: Airymouse
Date: 02 Nov 14 - 08:48 AM

STRAYING WAY OFF TOPIC:
I was taught that in English a, e, i, and o always denoted vowels, but j,u,w and y could be either vowels or consonants. The tricky one's were j as in fjord, u as in rice pilau, and w as in cwm and crwth. Anyone know any other English words where w is a vowel? As you can probably guess my teacher, whom we called "The Duck," was rather weird. He thought (incorrectly) that "in order to form a more perfect union" was a false comparative, and he insisted that we call the Battle of Bunker Hill the Battle of Breed's Hill. He has departed for his just rewards, but it would warm the left cockle of my heart if someone could poke a hole in his rule about the letters that denote vowels and consonants.

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Nov 14 - 06:25 AM

One also, of course, of the footie-crowd chants, to a variety of words not fitted for this chaste forum!

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 02 Nov 14 - 06:16 AM

Amstel Brewery , Amstel Brewery , Fill me till I want no more !!

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 14 - 05:55 AM

Carmel Clydach (Swansea), is now home to the remnants of about five others, and the Gymanfa Ganu is still not dead. Morriston Tabernacle, the Cathedral of the Valleys, tends to do Chapel and Rugby Club Gymanfau turn and turn about.

What is interesting is the gentle spread of a related tradition in England. I spent yesterday in rehearsal for the Carnival Band's Christmas gigs. Few off the singers had any difficulty with songs from that repertoire, even though Andy Watts thought we would: there were more than a few West Gallery singers in an area where West Gallery was thought no to have yet reached, the West Midlands. Things like the X-Factor have people getting as far as karaoke, and thence into an explosion of community choirs: it was the same movement in the 1890s which saw the Chapels and choruses under discussion come to the fore, of course. The Churches and Chapels are no longer community focuses, but Church Halls are. The professionalism level's climbing too: most of us were sight-reading to a working level, going to melding workups on the second runthrough.

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Nov 14 - 04:59 AM

On my long ago youth club footie coaches, it was always

-----
Father's pants will soon fit Willie
Will 'e wear 'em? Will 'e hell! (bis)

Will''e wear 'em?
Will e' wear 'em?
Will 'e wear 'em?
Will 'e hell!

(cresc)Will 'e heeeeell!

Will 'e wear 'em?
Will 'e hell!
-----

Never even realised it was a hymn tune till I started teaching and we would sing "Bread of Heaven" in assembly.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: GUEST,Marilyn
Date: 18 Sep 09 - 05:51 AM

Re pronunciation of Hyfrydol, it's Huv rud ol. (I'm English too, married to a Welshman so I've had to learn the language.)

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: Gray D
Date: 07 May 05 - 06:50 AM

Er . . . I live in South Wales. That's why I have this accent when I type. But I'm not in the valleys any more, I'm keeping dry down by yer on the coast.

Thanks for the offer, though. Visiting Canada is on the "to do" list 'cos I have family over there. In fact if my grandad hadn't been so set in his ways I'd probably be Canadian, 'cos he was the only one who stayed behind when the rest emigrated, but then I would have missed all the stuff above.

Gray D

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 06 May 05 - 11:24 PM

Gray D: do you live in the U.S. or Canada now? You could capture the music of the Gymanfa Ganu's you attended by going to the annual gymanfa sponsored by the Welsh National Gymanfa Ganu Association, Inc.

I loved your post!

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 06 May 05 - 04:26 PM

The title of the Williams song is Bread from Heaven, though I too know it as Guide Me, O Thou Great Jehovah.
There was a really fascinating program recently, entitled Bread from Heaven, about the history of Welsh non-conformism. Had a lot on singing, naturally.

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 May 05 - 01:43 PM

Splott Man:
I always remember it as "Don't stop breathing OR you'll die".

And "Bread from Evan's
Bread from Evan's,
Beer from The Colliers' Arms
Beer from The Colliers' Arms"

The Repetition of the first line matches more closely the original hymn(English version), and "the Tredegar Arms" would seem to put the stress on the wrong syllable.

Iechyd Dda
Nigel

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: Splott Man
Date: 06 May 05 - 07:40 AM

The parody I know goes similar to Guest:Joe F's to start with then varies...

Always eat when you are hungry,
Always drink when you are dry,
Always sleep when you are weary,
Don't stop breathing till you die.

Bread from Evans's,
Tea from Lipton's,
Beer from the Tredegar Arms (Tredegar Arms),
Beer from the Tredegar Arms.

Substitute your own local pub

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: sian, west wales
Date: 06 May 05 - 05:20 AM

Ah, well! If we're gonna talk treble/descant or melody/harmony in general, you can help with a straw poll I've been conducting (when I think about it ...): on the penultimate phrase - let's call it 'feed me til I want no more - who, in your version, remains on the one high note, and who sings the bit that moves downwards then dramatically back up? The United Church of Canada, Presbyterian Church of Canada, and North American Gymanfa Ganu hymnbooks, on which I was raised, give the movement to the soprano/bass lines, with the tenors holding the top note (and the altos bouncing around in a rather lacklustre way, assuaged somewhat by a chance to shine in the next phrase). BUT the Welsh give the moving bits to the tenors and basses, which I reckon is because they want to keep the flashy interesting bits for themselves. I don't know how it was originally arranged. (Seems to me that the Methodists over in England do it the way I learned it in Canada.) So what do you do?

And a true anecdote about Cwm Rhondda: some years back - 10 or 15 or so - the Welsh Methodists were bringing out an Atodiad to their hymnbook. That's a new publications which includes hymns that had become popular *beyond* the existing selection. As Cwm Rhondda wasn't in the original book, it was suggested for the Atodiad ... and turned down by The Committee because (and I tell no lies!) of its association with rugby matches and other pastimes of ill repute.

Story doesn't end there: it is, in actual fact, IN the Atodiad as it is now published. This is because at least one of The Committee thought that was a particularly stupid rationale and had access to the final copy as submitted to the publisher. Cwm Rhondda somehow got slipped into the manuscript. Oops. How did that happen?

siân
only sometimes a.k.a.
si?n
and even less often (as luck has it) as
sin

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: Splott Man
Date: 06 May 05 - 03:45 AM

I sit corrected Gray D.

BTW. The official pronunciation (Beddau) is close to BEAR-THY, but locally we say BAY-THE (both with a hard TH). It means gravestones! There are numerous other local variations from the norm round here - and before you say, yes some of them do come to the folk club.

:-)

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: Gray D
Date: 05 May 05 - 08:19 PM

Sorry, Splott Man, but I'm with Siacn on the pronun . . . pronown . . . pr . . . on how you say "Hyfrydol".

For the rest of you, "Beddau" is pron . . . is pr . . . comes out as "By there" as in :-

Q "Where do you come from?"

A "Over by there"

Hope this helps,

Gray D

P.S. A little bit of magic from my past. When I was about 9 or 10 I lived in the Welsh valleys. Our music teacher at school would teach my year some Welsh hymns in two part harmony, usually the treble and descant. After a few weeks they would load us onto a bus and drive us to one of the many chapels that were still alive, back then. We had to take the bus 'cos it was always raining. The layout would be the one of an oblong with an upper gallery on three sides, with the high sided stalls and the plethora of other strange boxes downstairs (mine wasn't a very religious family, so I didn't know what they were all for).

We would file upstairs, into one side of the gallery. A choir from another school would arrive and file into the other side (whispers of "Must be Pendarren. My cousin goes there"), then another one or two schools at the back. Shortly the ladies would arrive downstairs, literally in their Sunday best even though it was a weekday, sometimes with the posh hat on, then the male voice choir(s) would walk in, looking like only those men could look, best suits on, shoulders back, chests out - not a pose, they just used to walk like that. The organ would sound the opening chords and then everyone would hit the songs in full, and I really do mean FULL, four, five, six part harmony. A couple of hundred voice, full on, "I Bob Un Sydd Fyddlon", "Calon Lan", all the big Welsh hymns. Can you imagine the effect on a 10 year old kid with an ear for music? The hairs are standing up all over as I type. That was our "Gymanfa Ganu" (Guh-man-va Ganee). I wish I could do that again . . .

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: Anglo
Date: 05 May 05 - 02:40 PM

Cwm Rhondda is also a fine vehicle for Oh My Darling Clementine.

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: GUEST,WYS
Date: 05 May 05 - 10:47 AM

Thanks, guys!

No more "HIGH fer doll"!

And the definition-- wonderful, thanks.

~S~

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: GUEST,Joe_F
Date: 05 May 05 - 09:15 AM

Having learned the tune in somewhat raffish circumstances, I am used to thinking that the "real" words to it are

||:You must eat when you are hungry.

You must drink when you are dry.:||

You must rest when you are weary.

||:Don't stop breathing, or you'll die.:||

||:Father's pants will soon fit Willie.

Will he wear 'em? Willie will.:||

Will he wear 'em? Will he wear 'em?

||:Will he wear 'em? Willie will.:||

--- Joe Fineman    [e-mail]

||: When I make water I make water, and when I make tea I make tea. :||

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: Splott Man
Date: 05 May 05 - 08:34 AM

Not in this valley, Siân!

And you should hear how Beddau is pronounced locally!

But I accept that that's the official pronunciation.

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: sian, west wales
Date: 05 May 05 - 04:19 AM

Splott and Wysi, it's actually "huv-RUH-doll" (with the English 'll' of course, not the Welsh!) Hyfryd (HUH-vrid) means pleasant or lovely in Welsh.

Accent is always on the penultimate syllable, too. So, "Coom RHON-the" and "Ton y BO-tel". Except for 'ton' there's actually a circumflex over the o^ which makes it fall somewhere half way between a short and a long 'o'.

siân

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: Splott Man
Date: 05 May 05 - 03:38 AM

WYSIWYG...

Huv-ree-doll.

In Welsh, emphasis is usually on the second to last syllable.

rgards

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: greg stephens
Date: 05 May 05 - 03:27 AM

Joe: if your Catholic chuch doesnt sing Cwm Rhonnda I think you ahould instantly convert to some more godly sect that does!

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 May 05 - 12:58 AM

You can find the tune for Cwm Rhondda at cyberhymnal.org here. I know the song as "Guide Me, O Thou Great Jehovah," although I've never sung it in my (Catholic) church.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 May 05 - 11:09 PM

But..... how is "Hyfrydol" actually pronounced? I'm tired of screwing it up. Is it actually Hufferdul?

~An Anglican Who Really Wants to Know!

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 May 05 - 05:53 PM

This thread arouses great memories of my grandfather Dai Gent(invemtor of the scrum half for those who study rugby football), and also of a lot of coach trips singing in happy drunken harmony, and of a lot of weddings and funerals singing lustily in my best suit. Thanks for starting the thread.

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: sian, west wales
Date: 04 May 05 - 05:45 PM

Cwm Rhondda: originally called "Rhondda", written for a Baptist Gymanfa Ganu, Pontypridd 1905 ... which is at the bottom end of the Rhondda Valley. It is said that, by the time he died in 1932 the tune had been sung in over 5,000 Cymanfaoedd Canu (singing festivals).

Hyfrydol: by Rowland Hugh Pritchard (1811 - 1887). Published in a number of collections and, in 1914, in The Daily Mail when Lloyd George was at the height of his popularity and there was a demand for singing Welsh tunes in the meetings he was addressing. Pritchard was a tailor in Bala (moving later to Treffynnon) and composed a large number of religious works, although Hyfrydol is the only one that remained popular.

To^n y Botel's real title is Ebenezer, composed by Thomas John Williams (1869- 1944) in 1896 (although this went through a period of dispute) and is considered one of the great tunes of the 1904 Revival.    Published in a number of collections; in "Church Hymnary" to "What a Friend we have in Jesus"! (???)   Our friend, The Daily Mail, published a story that it had been discovered washed to shore in a bottle, hence the name. Williams was from Ynysmeudwy and became an organist in Llanelli. Later moved to Pontardawe and was a member in Ebenezer Chapel - hence the name.

The above, edited and translated from Huw Williams' 2 books on Welsh tunes and their authors.

siân

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 04 May 05 - 03:46 PM

And Calon Lan is the tune ( rather modified from having gone to the USA & back) for The Miner's Lifeguard.
MH

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 04 May 05 - 03:39 PM

Cwm is the Welsh word for valley or coombe. The Rhondda Valley is famous for coal mining.

LTS

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: Megan L
Date: 04 May 05 - 02:25 PM

Splott your not alone here we have the bad habit of cryin folk by thier hoose name so ye get jeano cornersquoy an jimmo Cuppin, we also have a few folk cried Canada guess the hudsons bay company had a lot tae answer for.

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: Splott Man
Date: 04 May 05 - 10:12 AM

Don't forget the Splottish Barn Dance

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: Snuffy
Date: 04 May 05 - 07:51 AM

Hymnbooks are packed with tunes named after towns or villages in both England and Wales: Monksgate, Down Ampney, Stockport, etc, etc

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: GUEST,The Beach Rugby Boys
Date: 04 May 05 - 07:49 AM

"Help Me Cwm Rhondda"

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: Splott Man
Date: 04 May 05 - 07:43 AM

We get a lot of that, William Williams, Hopkin Hopkins etc. The Welsh didn't have surnames until the government census takers thought it necessary. I'm sure Greg or Breezy can fill in more detail than this.
In my area people are still referred to as John Coal, and John Leg (on account of his limp) and Phil the Shop etc.

:-)

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 04 May 05 - 07:42 AM

Thanks for that, no time at all, I love mudcat.

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: Torctgyd
Date: 04 May 05 - 07:35 AM

And the usual words were written by William Williams I believe (very invetive these Welsh types)

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: breezy
Date: 04 May 05 - 07:21 AM

Thanks Greg

next question please.

My favourites also include Ton Y Botel and Hyfrydol

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 May 05 - 07:03 AM

Cwm Rhonnda was indeed the name of the tune, written by John Hughes(1873-1932, or so it says in my trusty Methodist Hymnal).

Subject: RE: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: breezy
Date: 04 May 05 - 06:40 AM

It maybe the name of the tune

Subject: Cwm Rhondda Why?
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 04 May 05 - 06:16 AM

Why is this song called Cwm Rhondda? Rhondda does not seem to feature in the words at all?