BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: Terry K
Date: 15 May 05 - 03:44 AM

Sorry, tried it but don't see any parallel. Unless you are saying that we should have started World War 2 by invading Germany on the grounds that Hitler seemed not to be a nice chap?

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: robomatic
Date: 14 May 05 - 08:45 AM

Terry K:

Interesting post, now change Iraq to Germany and 1970's to 1930's.

Well said, Mr. Chamberlain!

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 May 05 - 04:23 AM

Absolutely bloody spot on Terry. It's what I've been saying for six of the eight years they've been in.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: Terry K
Date: 14 May 05 - 03:56 AM

Iraq was reduced to a state of chaos by internal conflict fuelled by foreign intervention, leading to a collapsed economy and a failure of provision of basic services.

That was how it was in the 1970's.

Iraq was saved from this chaos by the emergence of a charismatic leader who was able to restore some measure of order from the chaos, leading to a general improvement for most of the Iraqi people.

This situation continued until some people in the West decided that this leader was not right for the Iraqi people, so intervened in a way that ensured the position in Iraq would be restored to what it had been in the 1970's.

Iraq will only be saved from this chaos by the emergence of a charismatic leader who is able to restore some measure of order from the chaos, leading to a general improvement for most of the Iraqi people ..........

Blair should go, and go now. He should not be replaced by Brown. Brown is a grinning opportunist who has continued to grinningly deny the Labour Party manifesto promise of no tax increases. He has introduced (correct me if I'm wrong) something like 67 new taxes to date, commonly known as "stealth taxes". He has borrowed to an alarming level from world banks, without the prospect of a new oil industry to repay the loans, as was the rationale in the past.

The current state of UK politics seems to be simply a question of how you would like the lies to be delivered.

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: CarolC
Date: 14 May 05 - 12:36 AM

BTW, GUEST,Moseph, the plural of "American" is "Americans". No apostrophe between the n and the s.

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: CarolC
Date: 14 May 05 - 12:32 AM

I think it's hilarious that people in Britain, when they think someone is ignorant, will often make the automatic assumption that the person in question is "American" (USAn).

GUEST,Moseph, ARD MHACHA is from your side of the pond.

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: robomatic
Date: 13 May 05 - 04:33 PM

How untrue, kendall (and Don).

I'm not holding a brief for 'W' here, but Clinton was President while we lost boys in Somalia and his leadership led to some pointless attacks on Afghan guerillas and NATO bombing Serb cities. "Wag the Dog" was a hit during this period, although I thought it kind of sucked as a movie. But the principle was well understood.

""Proportinal Repesentation is very diffucult for the agerage Brit to understand"

ok ARD MHACHA, so how come u can't spell proportional and representation? "

I once asked arg gargle to pronounce her name and she never got back to me on it. Possibly it's a speling iszue.

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 May 05 - 12:31 PM

How true, Kendall. He gets kicked out for aspects of his private life, while the current clown is re-elected to kill more (including young Americans).

Same again in the UK.

Go figure.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: kendall
Date: 13 May 05 - 07:13 AM

It's amazing how we keep looking to politicians to make things right. I don't care which side they are on, they are all self serving whores, and the only choice we have is, which ones will do the least damage?

NO ONE DIED WHEN CLINTON LIED.

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: GUEST,Moseph
Date: 12 May 05 - 03:17 PM

"Proportinal Repesentation is very diffucult for the agerage Brit to understand"

ok ARD MHACHA, so how come u can't spell proportional and representation?

For your Information, The last presidential election was the first for nearly 2 decades in which the winner also had a majority of the popular vote. But consider this, in previous election where turnout is roughly 50% and teh winner takes 50% of that vote to win, simple maths (if taht's not too hard) means that the winner has a mandate from effectively 25% of the US population. Not bad for the most powerful position in the world. Not. Chew that one over your freedom fries.

In Britain we have a sytem of democracy that has worked for almost three centuries. It's not perfect but we believe in evolution not revolution. Change will come over time. We don't need no American's telling us what to do, where do you think you get your system of government from??????

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: heric
Date: 12 May 05 - 12:58 PM

Agreed.

But the thinking part in Washington is that they considered but then decided it would not be a productive course to use "Saddam is a very bad man" as the primary approach to sell an overseas war in a Gulf oil state. They were right about that much.

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 12 May 05 - 12:46 PM

Right you are. And over here it is being largely ignored even though it pretty well damns Washington.

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: heric
Date: 12 May 05 - 12:53 AM

The memo is being used against Blair. Not Washington.

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 12 May 05 - 12:23 AM

Oh please. Can you really say that this prophetic excerpt doesn't make you a little queasy.

"Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy. The NSC had no patience with the UN route, and no enthusiasm for publishing material on the Iraqi regime's record. There was little discussion in Washington of the aftermath after military action."

**justified by terrorism and WMD...intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy...little discussion in Washington of the aftermath after military action...**

Jus 'bout sums it the F-k up doesn't it?

Sheeesh.

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: UncleToad
Date: 11 May 05 - 06:58 PM

Me thinks T Blair was re-elected just as was G Bush...To see if they can finish what they started in Eye-Rack.

Or is it "It is better to have the devil that you know..."

Did someone refer to Blair as Bush's "ButtBoy"?
Did someone refer to Bush as Blair's "ButtBoy"?

Define "ButtBoy" (In reference to these two)...

Uncle(IgnorantOnThisTopicButGotToKnow)Toad

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 May 05 - 06:02 AM

Perhaps true, Heric, but we were not sold the war on the basis of that memo. In fact we were told that WMDs in Iraq could be deployed in 45 minutes.
DT

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: heric
Date: 10 May 05 - 09:05 PM

There's nothing offensive or revelatory about this memo. I'm glad:
1. Those bozos in Washington actually think sometimes for their pay;
2. It shows no evidence of Blair or the UK being enticed or coerced, but instead portrays the UK being treated respectfully as a full partner whose support would be appreciated;
3. The perceived risk of WMD was real, not entirely feigned, if this memo is to be believed; and,
4. The weaknesses in the justifications, especially the legal grounds, were acknowledged forthrightly as matters to be addressed, rather than described as merely trivialities to be overcome by propoganda.

This memo paints a much brighter picture of the inner workings than I had previously envisioned.

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: GUEST,Boston Tea Salesman
Date: 10 May 05 - 08:30 PM

Hey - Yanks - Go and practice regime change on another invadee.

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 10 May 05 - 08:24 AM

Text of the Rycroft Memo

Read this, then explain to me again the various and varying reasons for invading Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: Peace
Date: 08 May 05 - 12:46 AM

"Rycroft Memo: I haven't the foggiest idea what that is.

DougR "

My cut and paste was for you, Doug. Now you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: HuwG
Date: 07 May 05 - 08:46 PM

I have little time for the UK Independence Party, but like Mandoleer, I suspect that their candidate for the High Peak constituency, Michael Schwartz, is really the pretender to the throne of Ruritania, in disguise.

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 May 05 - 06:12 PM

What other issues could be of more importance than a prime minister who sees noyhing wrong in lying repeatedly to parliament, and to the British people?

Words fail me.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: Peace
Date: 07 May 05 - 06:04 PM

Tony Blair Downplays Iraq Memo
May 1, 2005, 20:20 GMT

LONDON (UPI) -- British Prime Minister Tony Blair has downplayed a leaked memo that indicates he was looking to justify the Iraq War eight months before the conflict began.

Blair said the opposition Liberal Democrats and Conservatives were focusing on Iraq because they have "nothing serious to say" about other issues.

Conservatives have accused the prime minister of deceiving the Cabinet and the Commons over the war, and Liberal Democrats have said Iraq will continue to haunt Blair if he wins the election. On Sunday, The Times of London published an alleged memo dated July 23, 2002, by Matthew Rycroft, a former Downing Street foreign policy aide. Foreign Secretary Jack Straw is quoted in the memo as saying U.S. President George Bush had "made up his mind to take military action even if the timing was not yet decided. But the case was thin."

"Saddam was not threatening his neighbors, and his WMD capability was less than that of Libya, North Korea or Iran," the memo reportedly said.

"We should work up a plan for an ultimatum to Saddam to allow back in the UN weapons inspectors. This would help with the legal justification for the use of force."

Copyright 2005 by United Press International

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: alanabit
Date: 07 May 05 - 05:59 PM

English names is a subject in istelf, isn't it? I saw a Kevin Keegan play for England against Ireland and an Emlyn Hughes play for England against Wales. I don't know if Duncan Mackenzie and Malcolm MacDonald ever did really play for England against Scotland, but it would not surprise me.
Another one of my favourite idiosyncracies of history is the name Gustav Holst. Obviously, he was German. However, my musician friends assure me he was English through and through. We are an odd lot, aren't we? I wonder when the first Mohamed Ali Salim will play football for us against an Arab nation?

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: mandoleer
Date: 07 May 05 - 05:44 PM

I rather like the name of the UK Independence Party's candidate in High Peak, as quoted by HuwG. M. Schwartz. Err, aren't they against immigration from the rest of Europe, or something.....

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: alanabit
Date: 07 May 05 - 05:47 AM

Don, I have sent a PM.

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 May 05 - 05:02 AM

Richard,

There are many on mudcat who can attest to the fact that I am as willing to criticise my country, when wrong, as to praise it when right. Many Europhiles would like to see love of country and heritage buried, as this would facilitate the absorption of Britain into Europe as a subordinate state in a large federation of, mainly, former enemies.

Europe, IMHO, already exerts far more influence on our domestic affairs than is proper (down to the level of quality and labelling of foodstuffs).

It is not by chance that economic migrants pass straight through Europe, and head for this country. We sink millions of pounds into the community for very little visible benefit.

If these views make me a scoundrel, so be it, I shall remain a vociferous opponent of those who wish to achieve by absorption what they have failed to achieve by invasion.

I heartily agree about Robert tho'. It would be better for this country to have a genuine socialist party to balance the Tories, who are much too right wing even for my taste.


Alan,

You are of course right about the jump, tho' I believe the answer should read "How high, and in which direction?"

On Europe, however, I feel your comment is a little naive. When they control our judiciary, our finances, and our foreign policy, you may wish to rethink that comment about being human. The rest of the human race has never aspired to that level of control.

I strongly feel that we should retain sovereignty, and the furthest I would go with Europe is monetary parity. In fact I would campaign for removal of several current constraints. Europe was started as a common market, and that is all it should be.

Has everybody forgotten the truckloads of barbecued sheep that resulted from our attempts to sell in that market?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: alanabit
Date: 07 May 05 - 03:00 AM

...more resent... Oh my spelling!

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: alanabit
Date: 07 May 05 - 02:53 AM

I missed Paul Burke's post earlier. Yes, I will happily acknowledge that you must all be many many years older than I am. (Chuckle). I knew someone would pick me up on Harold Wilson's refusal to go to Viet Nam. I am afraid, however, that other, more resent episodes loom more largely in my memory. If I recall rightly, the Prime Minister at the time did not despatch a task force to Grenada when a foreign power invaded it. The best descripiton I have heard of Britain's policy came from Dennis Healey:
The Americans say,"Jump!"
The government says, "How high?"
Don and I should have this discussion elsewhere, but I can't resist the temptation to point out that being European makes me no less British than being a human does.

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: GUEST,Likrington
Date: 07 May 05 - 01:42 AM

Just for the record - Tony Blair made it crystal clear well before election day that he would not fight the next election as leader.
He will not be staying in office.
The questions now are when he will resign, who will replace him and how Labour will ensure a smooth a smooth transition to the new leader.
The favourite to replace him is Gordon Brown. Gordon has a towering, glowering presence who doesn't count highly in the charm/charisma stakes.
He is highly respected for his economic competence, not as an end in itself, but to further the causes he believes in - reducing poverty in this country and the world.
Although a friend of the free market and enterprise, one suspects that at heart he is also an old-fashioned, Old Labour socialist.

Many people have said that with Gordon as Prime Minister, the Chancellor's job would be impossible - but others would reply "Balls".

One of Gordon's problems is that in UK leadership elections, the early favourite rarely wins. Very interesting to see how it all pans out.

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 May 05 - 10:27 PM

Don, I assume you know the quote "Patriotism, the last refuge of the scoundrel". The attitude of "My country, right or wrong" is surely now outdated.


Since Robert Marshall-Andrews happily saved his seat (just), what we really need is to repossess the Labour party from "New Labour" and put him in charge of it (with a bit of help from Tony Benn).

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: Bobert
Date: 06 May 05 - 10:15 PM

Palast is probably one of the world's best journalists... He get's the evidence before going to press... His book, "The Best Democracy Money Can Buy" is impecable in it's research... It is like old time journalism where one goes out and tracts down the facts... Like Columbo with a pad...

Problem is that the folks in power love to try to make the folks who are exposing them look like imposters...

Problem for Blair and Bush... Greg Palast is the real deal...

He has the good on both of them...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 May 05 - 10:02 PM

Alanabit and other Brits, as the one who started this thread let me assure you that I did not mean for it to be an "American View", other than the article from Greg Palast, an American. Hearing your views is most interesting.

DougR, take another look at that article- Palast said that Blair will remain in office but that if the winning margin narrows (which it did) he won't be staying in office. So- in what way did Palast "bite off more than he can chew"?

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: DougR
Date: 06 May 05 - 05:01 PM

Rycroft Memo: I haven't the foggiest idea what that is.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 06 May 05 - 04:41 PM

Okay, don't believe a word of Palast's *opinions*. But, did you read the Rycroft memo? Oh wait, that's right, Dan Rather forged that too.

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: DougR
Date: 06 May 05 - 04:14 PM

It appears to me that Mr. Palast bit off a bit more than he can chew. Another example of a Mudcatter presenting as evidence of one's point of view an article available on the Internet where anybody can post anything, and count on at least some people believing it.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: CarolC
Date: 06 May 05 - 03:17 PM

What would your reaction be to a president who intended to hand over US sovereignty to a foreign power

I guess that would depend on which foreign power. It could be an improvement.

and merge your country into a federation with a different flag, a different currency, and a mishmash of different, and conflicting cultures

With the exception of the flag and the currency, this is what we have now. A mishmash of different and often conflicting cultures. Many of us are pretty used to it by now.

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 May 05 - 03:10 PM

Ironic indeed, Alan, as I am no keener on having our decisions made by Brussells, than by Bush.

I am British! I will always be British1 I want to remain British, and I can see no way in which that can be reconciled with being ruled by a European Federal government.

I have already seen my perfectly good British passport disappear, to be replaced by one which proclaims me to be a European Community Citizen. WRONG!

This thread is, as a recent posting points out, supposed to be an American view. So, I ask our American cousins, "What would your reaction be to a president who intended to hand over US sovereignty to a foreign power, and merge your country into a federation with a different flag, a different currency, and a mishmash of different, and conflicting cultures?

I apologise for the thread drift, but the point I am trying to make is that the UK could learn a lot from America about unashamed love of country, and respect for the heritage to which one was born.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 06 May 05 - 11:45 AM

Theresa May? May as well - they've flatlined and need another novelty act.

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: GUEST,Loony leprechaun
Date: 06 May 05 - 11:42 AM

Knowing that spelling the word average is hard to spell for the agerage irishman, that and keeping potatoes for the winter.

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 06 May 05 - 11:40 AM

knowing that Proportinal Repesentation is very diffucult for the agerage Brit to understand

Is this the only song in your repertoire?

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: Ramblingsid
Date: 06 May 05 - 09:39 AM

I would be delighted if Letwin was the next party leader - he is so gaffe prone!!

David Davis must be a contender - and don't forget that Rifkin (sic) is back in the Commons as well

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: HuwG
Date: 06 May 05 - 09:28 AM

Since Tony Blair has stated that he will (probably) stand down as PM before the next election, Labour are almost guaranteed a fourth term in 2009, with Gordon Brown as party leader.

(The Conservative leader, Michael Howard, will also almost certainly step down, so Oliver Letwin will probably be Tory leader then. Charles Kennedy will most probably still lead the Lib Dems.)

Incidentally, my own area, the High Peak, stayed Labour with a much reduced majority:

            2005                            2001
         -------------------------------------------------------------
  Labour: T. Levitt         19,809 (39.6%)     do.      22,430 (46.6%)
  Con.  : A. Bingham        19,074 (38.2%)  S. Chapman  17,941 (37.3%) 
  LibDem: M. Godwin         10,000 (20.0%)  P. Ashenden  7,743 (16.1%) 
  UKIP  : M. Schwartz        1,106 (2.2%)   H. Price     ?????
  
  Labour majority:             735                       4,489
  Turnout:                   66.4%                       65.2%
  
  

I won't say how I voted, but I'm not a Conservative and I hope God isn't a Liberal Democrat.

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: Ramblingsid
Date: 06 May 05 - 09:27 AM

I have no doubt that what DMcG says is correct. There were an awful lot of differing motivations and intentions at work when us voters were stood in the polling booth with the stubby pencil in our hands.

As a Labour member who finds himself in agreement with some of the Lib Dem policies I was however disappointed that the Lib Dems did not gain more seats than they did - and I feel that the Tories did not deserve the little progress that they have made.

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: Ramblingsid
Date: 06 May 05 - 09:07 AM

A mailing from the Make Votes Count campaign dropped through my letter-box this morning. Coincidence? I think not!

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: ard mhacha
Date: 06 May 05 - 08:31 AM

The bare facts are that one in five of the people voted for Blair, knowing that Proportinal Repesentation is very diffucult for the agerage Brit to understand, this will have to come and it will be back to school for the UK electorate.

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: DMcG
Date: 06 May 05 - 08:13 AM

People switched their votes from Labour to the Lib Dems and woke up with a Tory MP in some cases. Red face day for them methinks.

I'm not so sure about that. In my area, last time the voting was marginal, with Lab and Con both around the 15000 mark, with Labour ahead by about 1500, and with Lib Dem around 4000. Plenty of people I know voted for Lib Dem fully aware that the only likely outcome was that the Conservatives would win. However, they wished to see a much smaller majority for Labour and recognised that having a Conservative in their area was the price to be paid. Having decided that, the only choice was a direct or indirect vote for the Conservatives. Roughly speaking, those who were 'old Labour' found voting for Conservative impossible and so voted Lib Dem well aware of the consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: alanabit
Date: 06 May 05 - 08:09 AM

We are being a bit naughty and drifting off the thread theme here, as it is supposed to be an American view! Still, I certainly agree with your last comment Ron.
On the subject of America, I would like to say that I am no more anti American per se than most of our US friends here. Many of them share my views on their current leadership.
I thought that was a telling comment about the Tories share of the vote not rising. They have not essentially become more popular, as I and Ramblingsid have pointed out. What has happened is that some Labour supporters have become alienated, which has had the effect of keeping many poeople at home (or in the Lib Dem camp). Labour's way forward must surely lie with trying to win back its own natural supporters, rather than to try to win the votes of a dying breed.

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 May 05 - 07:44 AM

At least Tony has been given strong incentive to distance himself from further idiocies of the alleged "leader of the free world".

Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
From: Ramblingsid
Date: 06 May 05 - 07:22 AM

PR is certainly the better way. I am struck by the fact that the Tories' share of the vote is pretty much unchanged but that their number of seats has risen. People switched their votes from Labour to the Lib Dems and woke up with a Tory MP in some cases. Red face day for them methinks.

Listening "Gorgeous" George Galloway's acceptance speech last night I thought he should have stood in Barking! As mad as a hatter!

Ex MP Tony Banks was virulent in his condemnation of Galloway. Said that he had capitalised on the anti black, anti jewish anti women sentiment among the muslim population to oust the Black/Jewish woman MP Oona King. Its a great shame as King was a first rate MP by all accounts (and I believe had the support of Billy Bragg). But the upshot is that the SWP in effect now has an MP.