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BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging

Jeri 16 May 05 - 12:42 PM
jacqui.c 16 May 05 - 11:48 AM
The Shambles 16 May 05 - 11:41 AM
The Shambles 16 May 05 - 11:00 AM
JennyO 16 May 05 - 10:50 AM
Jeri 16 May 05 - 10:34 AM
George Papavgeris 16 May 05 - 06:04 AM
The Shambles 16 May 05 - 04:36 AM
George Papavgeris 16 May 05 - 03:54 AM
Davetnova 16 May 05 - 03:28 AM
Paco Rabanne 16 May 05 - 03:15 AM
The Shambles 16 May 05 - 02:18 AM
The Shambles 16 May 05 - 01:54 AM
The Shambles 15 May 05 - 07:48 PM
GUEST,Jon 15 May 05 - 07:40 PM
The Shambles 15 May 05 - 07:35 PM
Bill D 15 May 05 - 06:12 PM
jacqui.c 15 May 05 - 11:51 AM
GUEST 15 May 05 - 10:17 AM
GUEST 15 May 05 - 09:43 AM
The Shambles 15 May 05 - 06:56 AM
GUEST,Jon 14 May 05 - 02:31 PM
GUEST,The Shambles 14 May 05 - 01:59 PM
GUEST,Spaw 14 May 05 - 10:35 AM
GUEST,Jon 14 May 05 - 09:19 AM
The Shambles 14 May 05 - 08:59 AM
GUEST,Jon 14 May 05 - 07:03 AM
The Shambles 14 May 05 - 06:38 AM
GUEST,Jon 14 May 05 - 06:29 AM
The Shambles 14 May 05 - 06:10 AM
JennyO 13 May 05 - 08:25 AM
Paco Rabanne 13 May 05 - 05:13 AM
George Papavgeris 12 May 05 - 11:44 PM
GUEST 12 May 05 - 11:15 AM
GUEST,The Shambles 12 May 05 - 10:22 AM
GUEST,Wolfgang 12 May 05 - 10:01 AM
GUEST,The Shambles 12 May 05 - 09:42 AM
The Shambles 12 May 05 - 09:31 AM
jacqui.c 12 May 05 - 08:06 AM
George Papavgeris 12 May 05 - 05:50 AM
The Shambles 12 May 05 - 03:31 AM
The Shambles 12 May 05 - 03:22 AM
Richard Bridge 11 May 05 - 07:02 PM
George Papavgeris 11 May 05 - 04:23 PM
George Papavgeris 11 May 05 - 04:20 PM
Wolfgang 11 May 05 - 04:09 PM
George Papavgeris 11 May 05 - 03:09 PM
The Shambles 11 May 05 - 02:52 PM
The Shambles 11 May 05 - 01:23 PM
GUEST,jOhn 11 May 05 - 12:58 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: Jeri
Date: 16 May 05 - 12:42 PM

JennyO, no, but it makes sense. Actually the link is so obvious that most people probably would think "Uh...yeah. So what?"

I think the things were called ColorForms or something like it. Hang on a minute...

Hot Diggity Dalmation!. I can't find the dalmations, but it seems Colorforms have been resurrected since there's a Squarebob Spongepants version out.

Maybe the next fundraiser could be something similar with Mudcat as the theme. Mudcat action figures might be fun but once you rip the heads off, that's it. Little sticky plastic things would be better. Also, in addition to clothes one could change, there could be bodies - maybe the Star Wars™ characters and Mudcatter faces you could stick on them. Imagine who would be whom. It could be fun, and every time one got frustrated at threads like this, one could stick somebody's face on Jabba-the-Hut, add a pink tutu and Carmen Miranda fruit hat, and suddenly you're not so mad anymore.


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: jacqui.c
Date: 16 May 05 - 11:48 AM

I can't remember the plastic stuff but do remember the felt pieces - I think they are still available today. I hope whoever thought up those simple ideas made their money out of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 May 05 - 11:41 AM

I do NOT think Mudcat has an obligation to provide a place to do that. I definitely don't think it's the place for people to engage in malicious and potentially career wrecking gossip or trial by public opinion.

In my opinion - I may judge the above to be a perfectly valid opinion or not. However, my judgement in this does not matter - as I have always understood all opinions on our forum are equally valid. So the only interest is whether I wish to respond or not - to what is said.

But before I do - there must remain some confusion in other areas now - in that does the above become official Mudcat policy when strongly expressed like this - by a (known) volunteer - or have any more weight than an opinion expressed by an ordinary poster?

Perhaps not but folk may follow any example set by a known volunteer - thinking this is acceptable posting. Perhaps all of us and our volunteers especially should always try to ensure that their posting is setting an acceptable example?


All folk like to gossip (even those like me who are not very good at it). But few of us like the idea of being gossiped about publicly. A bad habit has developed on our forum of posting publicly to address another poster and to make comments and personal judgements in these posts about other named posters.

This practice can only lead to more problems and the strength of opinion and the language used - have directly led to the idea that it is also OK to do exacly the same with well-known public figures and performers. This mudslinging is problematic.

There is the option of PMs and email where IF the convention is followed - of not making these exchanges public - it is possible to be as defamatory and as bitchy as you wish and about whoever you wish.


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 May 05 - 11:00 AM

Has anything else changed (for the better) - as result of recent mistakes on our forum by our volunteers? Mistakes that were thought necessary to be corrected?

The future of the 100th post itself - was never in danger. All that was in question is/was - who decided the content of it.

If this content is/was not judged by our anonymous volunteers to be to their personal taste - the volunteer now referred to now as our Chief Administrator - considered that although such judgement was not important enough for them - it was "fair game" for their underlings to impose their judgement upon the contributions of their fellow posters as a matter of routine in these cases - without the originator's knowledge or permission.

This was before our Chief Administrator later thought it important enough to reverse such an imposition by an anonymous volunteer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: JennyO
Date: 16 May 05 - 10:50 AM

I don't know if this was what you were thinking of Jeri, but what came to my mind was The Count in Sesame Street ("They call me The Count because I looove to count things") - especially when you mentioned the little plastic images. My kids had the Sesame Street characters, but they were probably not exactly what you were describing - these were fridge magnets.


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: Jeri
Date: 16 May 05 - 10:34 AM

Regarding those in the Count Catula Club, first Joe said the posts were fair game, then he said the one referred to above should not have been deleted. Pick the opinion which is most appropriate to your need.

Brought to you by A.D.D.[1]: Anybody remember those children's things you could buy with the shiny black cardboard and the flat plastic images that would stick to the board and each other? Did they have them in the UK? I had 101 Dalmations. There were oodles of plastic puppies, and Cruella DeVille and other characters, and their clothes (not the puppies, which were nude (except for spots)). Do they still make these things? I used to like the way the plastic bits smelled.

Regarding the original subject which has been largely forsaken in favor of following where Shambles leads, I think people have a right to know about incidents that may affect them directly.[2] I do NOT think Mudcat has an obligation to provide a place to do that. I definitely don't think it's the place for people to engage in malicious and potentially career wrecking gossip or trial by public opinion. If folks need to talk about how much they hate a person or how big of an asshole/idiot/witchfinder general he/she is, they should at LEAST do so using the same sort of polite language Shambles uses when discussing Joe.

[1]Be the first to figure out what made me think of this and win a prize.
[2]Personally, a drunk guy popping an obnoxious guy in a club somewhere far away from me doesn't seem like it's going to be something I really need to know about or talk about. I enjoy a tabloid as much as the next person, but the people gossiped about in them have money for lawyers and lawsuits. I don't think it's fair to folk musicians who can't afford to sue and wouldn't get any blood from this stone anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 16 May 05 - 06:04 AM

I believe "100thpost-ism" has been largely eradicated thanks to the incessant lobbing (or is it lobbying?) of the Protectors Of Our Freedom (POOF for short) and now Ted and others can enjoy the numerical race unmolested.

Folk music, Mudcat and the Internet has been saved from the scourge of the "100thpost-ist" anonymous self-appointed clones.

All together now : Let's hear it for our eponymous self-appointed drones!

The air is somehow fresher this morning...


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 May 05 - 04:36 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: GUEST,Joe Offer - PM
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 11:28 AM

Well, I can't log in, either, so I don't have access to proof one way or another. Generally, the 100th/200th claims are a no-no in music threads and in many serious discussions. People have come to think of them as obnoxious. I don't know why, but that's what they think.
I don't bother with them, but they're fair game for the Clones.
-Joe Offer-


Are they still - officially "fair game" for our anonymous volunteers? Or has something changed?


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 16 May 05 - 03:54 AM

Even as we write these posts we are censored, simply by having Times Roman as the default font and having to go into HTML - like learning the secret language of the Powers That Be - if we want to post in a font that truly expresses our personal feelings. The oppression is stifling.

Thankfully there are people out there who are willing to spend grey matter and time for the common good, and who will champion our cause. But one thing at a time.

Let's save the 100th posts first.


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: Davetnova
Date: 16 May 05 - 03:28 AM

100 you missed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 16 May 05 - 03:15 AM

100. Good morning.


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 May 05 - 02:18 AM

Will posts claiming the 100th be safe now from our anonymous volunteers and not now be deleted by them as a matter of routine?


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 May 05 - 01:54 AM

On reflection - everyone here has been censored - perhaps not directly - but certainly indirectly.

Is this not the case - every time an entire thread is moved, deleted or closed on the imposition of our volunteer's personal taste?


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 May 05 - 07:48 PM

Bill D hasn't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 May 05 - 07:40 PM

I sometimes think the only ones qualified to comment with any authority on censorship – are those who have suffered from it.

Have you ever been censored here Shambles?

I have.


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 May 05 - 07:35 PM

Shambles - you are doing nothing to help toward peace and harmony. All you are doing is driving people away from what were interesting threads by your constant repetition of the same argument.

I do not appear to be driving you away from judging me in this thread– even though you claim to be bored.

Unfortunately there are some very unpleasant individuals on this site. I know of one lady who was called a very unpleasant name and another poster hoped that my husband would get cancer (he already had) and that our house would burn down. IMO these are the sort of personal attacks that need moderators to deal with and, again IMO, the clones do a good job.

Sadly – since our volunteers have adopted the bad habits of those you would judge as "unpleasant individuals" – it is difficult now to tell them, from the threats, and actions of (some of) our volunteers. Fighting fire with fire – is liable to result in your entire house burning down.

The fact is that the "unpleasant" comments you refer to – were posted. So whatever harm caused to you by these words – was already done. Our volunteers cannot protect you from this – they can only impose their judgement AFTER the damage has been done. Would it not be better for all efforts to be concentrated on trying to prevent all this unpleasantness from first being posted – by the setting of a better example?   

I know of very few people who have had posts deleted and have been in agreement with the clones when they close unpleasant threads. If anyone is in the minority on this question, with posts being deleted then maybe those people need to look inward for the reasons why. Most of us manage to comport ourselves in a reasonable manner that does not attract censure. In common with any relatively democratic entity majority opinion should carry the day. As far as the net is concerned, you are free to come and go as you please. Just don't expect everybody else to conform to your ideas of right and wrong just because you want to play.

I sometimes think the only ones qualified to comment with any authority on censorship – are those who have suffered from it. Those who feel safe from it and support it being imposed upon others and those who feel themselves qualified to deny basic freedoms to others – freedoms that they themselves take as a right – should perhaps not have too much of a voice in this debate. The saying – 'I'm alright Jack' comes to mind.

Agree or disagree with me but the fact remains that all of this unpleasantness and division will just get worse – if all of this censorship and public judgement of each other's worth to post - continues to be encouraged by the poor example now being set and sadly followed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: Bill D
Date: 15 May 05 - 06:12 PM

"The defence of having anonymous volunteers comes largely from these volunteers and their supporters...."

sounds right to me. In fact, it sounds tautological! ............. I wouldn't expect the defence to come from those very few who object!

Last time I counted, it was about 99% in favor. But since you enjoy being a voice in the wilderness, Shambles, I'm sure we will hear why the fact that most of those who have shown an opinion disagree with you is irrelevant. (gee- that sentence is worthy of YOU!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: jacqui.c
Date: 15 May 05 - 11:51 AM

Shambles - you are doing nothing to help toward peace and harmony. All you are doing is driving people away from what were interesting threads by your constant repetition of the same argument.

Unfortunately there are some very unpleasant individuals on this site. I know of one lady who was called a very unpleasant name and another poster hoped that my husband would get cancer (he already had) and that our house would burn down. IMO these are the sort of personal attacks that need moderators to deal with and, again IMO, the clones do a good job.

I know of very few people who have had posts deleted and have been in agreement with the clones when they close unpleasant threads. If anyone is in the minority on this question, with posts being deleted then maybe those people need to look inward for the reasons why. Most of us manage to comport ourselves in a reasonable manner that does not attract censure. In common with any relatively democratic entity majority opinion should carry the day. As far as the net is concerned, you are free to come and go as you please. Just don't expect everybody else to conform to your ideas of right and wrong just because you want to play.

As GUEST 10.17am said - put up or shut up - you get very BORING.


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: GUEST
Date: 15 May 05 - 10:17 AM

Your idea appears to be that our volunteers are not responsible for the free choice they made to sit in and impose their personal judgement upon fellow posters. That it is Max that who deserves all criticism that may result from our volunteers getting it wrong and the resulting division from all of this.

Shambles, it is you not me, with the criticism of the volunteer system. It is not opinion but fact that Max carries the ultimate responsiblity for all aspects of Mudcat.


My view is that if you have a complaint with a system and you fail at a lower level (as you have for around 6 years), you either give up or take the matter higher. To put it bluntly, I believe you should either put up or shut up.
I imposed my personal judgement upon your italics. --JoeClone


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: GUEST
Date: 15 May 05 - 09:43 AM

The only way to find out is shambles is on the right path, is for all moderation to stop for perhaps a month/2 months, and see the result. This also won't happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 May 05 - 06:56 AM

I'm sorry but I don't understand you.

Your idea appears to be that our volunteers are not responsible for the free choice they made to sit in and impose their personal judgement upon fellow posters. That it is Max that who deserves all criticism that may result from our volunteers getting it wrong and the resulting division from all of this.

A more sensible view would be that all parties should be responsible and prepared for any citicism of their actions. Perhaps you would agree that there is nothing simple about imposing censorship? And that anyone who chose and felt qualified to sit in judgement - would be unrealistic to expect not to be themselves the subject of judgement? In fact most of the abusive personal attacks made upon me and incitement for other posters to follow this example - by (named and anoymous) volunteers - were because these volunteers considered any judgement at all of their actions - to be unfair and uncalled-for!

One can perhaps understand a volunteer who would like to think that the person who appointed them was responsible and answerable for any mistaken judgements they may make - but the world is not like that.

Is it possible Jon that all this resulting division among our ranks is intentional? That keeping this pot constantly stirring by introducing measures that further divide us and are most unlikely to result in peace and harmony ever breaking out on our forum - is cynically designed just going to keeping folks posting?   

In all truth - it is difficult to see how you could come up with a worse set-up - if peace and harmony on our forum - were really the object.....Perhaps this is not the object?


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 14 May 05 - 02:31 PM

"How do you work out that I dislike any anonymous volunteers? Is it even possible to dislike those whose identity is withheld and who remain unknown to you?"

Blimey shambles... I mean your dislike of the existance of/system which allows anonymous volunteers.


This is really the problem. My critisms are of the wisdom of creating any uneeded divisions on our forum

And you have been told yet again that Max created the system that you complain causes unneeded divisions...

My view is that we are all pretty nice folk - but that all this imposed judgement upon fellow posters by anonymous volunteers - is NOT a very nice thing. As for this being a critism of Max. My view is that if Max thinks that the forum is accepting this concept and generally think that it is a good idea - he will think this OK too.

I'm sorry but I don't understand you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 14 May 05 - 01:59 PM

Whether you like it or not, your dislike of anonymous volunteers or your creation of "self appointed volunteers" are in fact criticisms of Max.

How do you work out that I dislike any anonymous volunteers? Is it even possible to dislike those whose identity is withheld and who remain unknown to you?

This is really the problem. My critisms are of the wisdom of creating any uneeded divisions on our forum - not expressions of any personal dislike of those volunteering or being appointed for these positions.

The defence of having anonymous volunteers comes largely from these volunteers and their supporters (who know they will never be censored). And on the basis that they are nice well-intentioned folk (and anyone who critises them are not nice folk). Not that the concept of judgement being imposed by anonymous fellow posters - is one that is likely to be generally popular or one that will unite posters.

My view is that we are all pretty nice folk - but that all this imposed judgement upon fellow posters by anonymous volunteers - is NOT a very nice thing. As for this being a critism of Max. My view is that if Max thinks that the forum is accepting this concept and generally think that it is a good idea - he will think this OK too.

Now as anonymous posting here will never be thought acceptable - I really can't see how all this anonymous imposed judgement as a matter now of routine - will ever be thought to be generally acceptable.

For whatever your view - if it continues unchanged - the only thing that Mudcatters will have to 'learn to live with' is continuing and constant battles - resulting directly from this needless division and the double standards that are defended.


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: GUEST,Spaw
Date: 14 May 05 - 10:35 AM

Of the clones I know, NONE of them have volunteered first. The initial contact was made by Max or Jeff or Joe on Max's behalf. Jon you are completely correct in noting that Shambles refusal to accept this fact (and it is a fact) is a real problem for him and his argument. So let's abandon the word volunteer and use clone or moderator instead for accuracy.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 14 May 05 - 09:19 AM

Shambles, I resigned.

It is true that no Max appointed volunteer has to continue or (at least in the case of those of us who were invited) accept in the first place.

The point that there are no self appointed volunteers remains. Max asks for volunteers because he feels he needs them. If he was low on "staff" he would look for more volunteers.

This is where much of your argument fails as you can not accept the fact that the volunteers exist because Max wants them to. Whether you like it or not, your dislike of anonymous volunteers or your creation of "self appointed volunteers" are in fact criticisms of Max.


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 May 05 - 08:59 AM

There is no point arguing anything about self-appointed volunteers as they don't exist.

How about volunteers who are no longer Max appointed or self-appointed volunteers? Jon did you un-volunteer or were you dis -appointed?

The point simply being that no one here is being forced to volunteer - so if they do not wish to between a rock and a hard place - they do not have be - do they?


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 14 May 05 - 07:03 AM

In order for Max to appoint a volunteer - they first have to volunteer. Otherwise there would not be any volunteers for Max to appoint.

Not true shambles. I know I "parted company" later but the first I knew of becoming a volunteer here was a PM from Max asking me if I would volunteer. The same has happened with other volunteers.

In any case, volunteering does not mean a person is appointed. Even if they PMed Max offering help, the appointment would be made by Max and not by the "volunteer".

Jon you will not I hope - argue with the fact that any of our self-appointed volunteers could un-volunteer at any time?

There is no point arguing anything about self-appointed volunteers as they don't exist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 May 05 - 06:38 AM

In order for Max to appoint a volunteer - they first have to volunteer. Otherwise there would not be any volunteers for Max to appoint.

Jon you will not I hope - argue with the fact that any of our self-appointed volunteers could un-volunteer at any time?


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 14 May 05 - 06:29 AM

If your only worry as self-appointed volunteer...

As this site only has Max-appointed volunteers, no one need worry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 May 05 - 06:10 AM

They came for the communists, and I was not a communist, so I did nothing. (Shambles 2001, looking for a source to a quote he liked)

The only way to be sure of not doing the wrong thing and be blamed - is for you to do nothing. (Shambles' recommendation 2005)


There are times when doing nothing will be judged the best thing to do and there are times when it will be judged not to be. Anyone who thinks that life easy is in for a shock. So is anyone who thinks that imposing censorship is easy.

If your only worry as self-appointed volunteer censor is the fear of being blamed for your actions - there are two clear choices.

I. You restrict your imposed censorship actions to as near zero as you can.

2. You un-volunteer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: JennyO
Date: 13 May 05 - 08:25 AM

The slippery slope - the true path!


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 13 May 05 - 05:13 AM

The Shambles makes a lot of sense to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 May 05 - 11:44 PM

Wlfgang, it chokes me to say this...But Shambles is r*&^%£....he is rig&^%$£....Shambles is right (there, I said it) about the thread title being the name of Damien Barber's review.

Oh God, what have I done! I have agreed with Shambles... Joe, quick, delete me!


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 05 - 11:15 AM

http://www.thedemonbarbers.com/Default.aspx?tabid=87


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 12 May 05 - 10:22 AM

Wolfgang - This was only for the pedantic among us - not for the super-pedantic.....*Smiles*

But while we are on the subject. The thread title was not mis - spelled. It refers to the title of the band/review that Damian Barber is currently touring with.


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 12 May 05 - 10:01 AM

Just a point for the pedantic among us. The original thread that started all this fuss (about very little) did not in fact have the performer's name in the title. (Shambles today)

Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 May 05 - 03:11 AM

The first closed thread The REAL Demon Barber roadshow (Shambles earlier in this thread)

Shambles, what do you want to tell us here? That the thread titled The REAL Demon Barber Roadshow!! was not the first thread about the incident in correction of your former contribution? Or that misspelling the first name of a performer makes him unrecognisable?

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 12 May 05 - 09:42 AM

Run ins with established performers

Another thread for the 'chop'?

Just a point for the pedantic among us. The original thread that started all this fuss (about very little) did not in fact have the performer's name in the title.


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 May 05 - 09:31 AM

Is there a difference between mudslinging and name-calling?


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: jacqui.c
Date: 12 May 05 - 08:06 AM

Shame. This was an interesting thread before it got hijacked.

Is there a filter that would stop one seeing a particular member's posts? I do try just to ignore, but whenthey take over completely with the same old same old every time it becomes very tedious and I give up on a thread that I've been interested in.

I do try to be tolerant but there are certain posters who just piss me off with their whining or crudity. Then I start thinking that a swift kick in the ghoolies would concentrate their minds on the fact that they are BORING.

Rant over - I have reread this post and will send it - I'm fed up with idiots.


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 May 05 - 05:50 AM

Told you, Wolfie - trolls hear but they don't listen. They speak but they make no sense. They read but they don't understand. You tell them they talk bollocks, and they think you just agreed with them. You tell them they diverted your thread, and they blame others. They are tyrants of their own reality.

But they are patient, and they have plenty of time on their hands. The more they hear people crossing the bridge, the more opportunity for them to extract their toll.

They are pretty much indestructible. But you shouldn't take them seriously either. After all, they are just fairytale figures. Laugh at them a little, cringe at their convolutions a little, tease them a little...Just don't try to reason with the troll.


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 May 05 - 03:31 AM

The only way to be sure of not doing the wrong thing and be blamed - is for you to do nothing. That and respecting the wishes of the originator and fellow posters - is all I am asking you to do.

The above is the 2005 recomendation in full and in context - for I have been told that context is important

Your 2005 recommendation is complete BS, Shambles, as you should realise if you think about it.
Wolfgang


If it is 'complete BS - then it is in good company and in the right section of our forum. Let us leave our forum to judge.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 May 05 - 03:22 AM

I am not sure that it is but - if this thread is 'buggered' It was as a direct result of clumsy (if well-intentioned) imposed censorship. A direct result of our volunteers ignoring the wishes of the thread originator and rushing to place a posts here - including one containing a name here without the poster's knowledge or consent.

It is a sad fact that thread would now seem to be the only place to discuss the original incident and the general issues arising - that is safe from imposed censorship. So far. We do appear to have 'official' permission to do it - if no thread to now do it in.

I am a little surprised at this apparent concern for mudslinging - considering all the mud that has recently been thrown at me - and that continues to be thrown at me here and the direction that much of this mud is comming from.

But what is the concern? That a performer's name appears in a thread title? If that is the case - then 50% of all threads should also be subject to imposed closure or deletion.

If the thread title was 'Joe Bloggs is a wonderful performer, and great person who does a lot for charity' - I am sure that Joe Bloggs nor anyone else would be contacting our volunteers and asking for a fellow poster's contribution to be closed or deleted. However, this is a rather long thread title that us ordinary posters would not be able to fit in the box provided - but that is another story.

Perhaps public figures will just have to get used to being 'gossiped' about and accept the good against the bad. Posters here are probably different and creating thread titles with a poster's name in it - is probably not a good thing to do. It is not a good idea to encourage this nor to impose censorship on - if such a thread is created.

I don't think the purpose of our forum is for us to be encouraged to sit in judgement upon each other's worth to post. Perhaps we should just concentrate on posting - reading the posts of others - responding to what they say or choosing not to?


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 May 05 - 07:02 PM

The only reason I'm on this thread was that my objection to a thread deletion (not any mudslinging) was moved here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 11 May 05 - 04:23 PM

And before Roger whines back "you told me to get back to the point of the thread, why do you then talk about other things?":

The thread is buggered thanks to Shambles anyway, and to those responding to the troll's bait...


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 11 May 05 - 04:20 PM

Wolfgang, don't you get it? It can be easily rationalised (as I am sure it will). The logic we will be presented with is as follows:

a) Monster Joe can't do anything right, so the less he does, the less chance of damage.
b) Don Shambote however does good; he has clones to incapacitate, threads to clog up, The Greater Good Of Mudcat to protect...So the more HE does, the better.

Nothing hypocritical about this logic.

Not much....


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: Wolfgang
Date: 11 May 05 - 04:09 PM

They came for the communists, and I was not a communist, so I did nothing. (Shambles 2001, looking for a source to a quote he liked)

The only way to be sure of not doing the wrong thing and be blamed - is for you to do nothing. (Shambles' recommendation 2005)

Your 2005 recommendation is complete BS, Shambles, as you should realise if you think about it.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 11 May 05 - 03:09 PM

The originator of the thread approved.
Do you have anything pertinent to the thread to discuss?


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 May 05 - 02:52 PM

We have to keep a thread open to censure someone because closing it is censorship.............................right then.......

If the object of the imposed censorship was out of concern for the person being criticised - the direct result of this censorship was - (as on most occasions like this) - that far more people were made aware of an issue that that they probably would have missed - without all the fuss and justification of the imposed closure of two threads and the imposed deletion of another.

When a fourth thread was started, I figured the best thing to do was to move those three messages here - knowing full well that wouldn't be satisfactory to a number of people.

The most important person who wouldn't be satisfied with this move - was the thread originator. They specifically reqested in the first post that no names be brought into this thread. He even stated that if anyone did this - he would request that our volunteers to remove it.

I am sure that he did not expect for one minute that it would be our volunteers who ignored his request. Especially as this imposition was admittedly made in the full knowledge that it "wouldn't be thought satisfactory".

Perhaps folk will finally accept this as evidence - that our volunteers will now just meddle as they wish - with our contributions?

Have you ever had your contributions meddled with - Missus? *Smiles*


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 May 05 - 01:23 PM

Well, I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place on this one. There's no way any one decision could satisfy everyone.

That is the bottom line.

The only way to be sure of not doing the wrong thing and be blamed - is for you to do nothing. That and respecting the wishes of the originator and fellow posters - is all I am asking you to do.

Let everyone decide for themselves - which is what our discussion forum is supposed to be for - can you and your volunteers please leave us alone to discuss it?

This time - you impose closure on one thread and there are 3 created in its place. Perhaps you will finally accept that you have no control over what posters choose to post and stop trying to exert this control and making matters worse as a ressult? The only control there is - is over what you choose to post yourself.

Perhaps you can tell that to those who contact you to - ask you close or delete threads - and ask you to impose their judgement upon the contributions of fellow posters.

There is big difference in moderating a discussion forum and encouraging the idea that you have the right to RULE over every aspect of what others contribute.


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Subject: RE: BS: Complaints versus Mudslinging
From: GUEST,jOhn
Date: 11 May 05 - 12:58 PM

How much?


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