Victims of the Birmingham bombing

Subject: Victims of the Birmingham bombing
From: GUEST,penguin egg
Date: 10 May 05 - 07:41 AM

There have been plenty of songs written about the Birmingham 6, but have there been any songs written about the bombings themselves, specifically about the victims of the bombings?

Subject: RE: Victims of the Birmingham bombing
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 05 - 08:16 AM

This will be a short thread!

Subject: RE: Victims of the Birmingham bombing
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 10 May 05 - 08:45 AM

So, Guest do you sing any, or are you just stirring shit?

Subject: RE: Victims of the Birmingham bombing
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 May 05 - 09:14 AM

I was living in Birmingham at the time. Somehow the lyricism inherent in the incident escaped all our attentions.

all the best

big al whittle

Subject: RE: Victims of the Birmingham bombing
From: Azizi
Date: 10 May 05 - 09:39 AM

I'm not sure if there are any songs about that bombing.

But IMO, we honor those girls who were killed in that bombing, and all other victims of injustice and hate by working to make the world a better place.

For those unfamiliar with this tragedy, see this summary:

"The September 15, 1963 racially motivated bombing of Birmingham's Sixteenth Street Baptist Church, which resulted in the death of four innocent black girls, was the nadir of the Civil Rights movement in Birmingham and perhaps one of the darkest days in Birmingham's history. City authorities, never sympathetic to blacks, did very little to bring the bombers to justice. Not until 1977 was one of the bombers convicted. Locally, the bombing brought the factional Civil Rights leaders together. Nationally, the bombing gave the movement not just a face, but four faces, four young, innocent faces.

The Bombing of the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church

Between 1947 and 1965, over fifty bombings occurred in Birmingham, resulting in the city becoming known as "Bombingham." Perhaps the most famous of these blasts was the one that took the lives of four innocent black youth as they prepared their Sunday School lessons on a Sunday Morning at the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church.

The bombing came as a result of heightened tensions in the city after a federal court ordered its schools to be integrated. Governor George Wallace chose to defy this order and urged his followers to do the same. Such defiance only encouraged Birmingham's bombers to swing into action. Indeed, a local black attorney's house was bombed for the second time in two weeks. In the end, federal authorities won this minor skirmish and the schools were desegregated. Segregationists in Birmingham were not happy.

On a quiet Sunday morning, September 15, 1963, four little black girls prepared their Sunday School lessons in the basement of the church. In the same basement sat a bomb placed by segregationists, designed to kill and maim in protest of the forced integration of Birmingham's public schools. Denise McNair, Carole Robertson, Cynthia Wesley, and Addie Mae Collins were killed in the explosion. Angry blacks rioted and the civil authorities responded with great violence. During the rest of the day, other black youths were murdered by police and civilians alike, compounding the desperation.

Moderate whites condemned the bombing and the FBI took over the investigation from local authorities that had shown no real concern for solving the crime, though they held strong evidence pointing to the bombers. Because of this local interference, the FBI took over the investigation. With foot dragging of their own, they failed to convict anyone for the crime by 1968. It was not until 1977 that the state convicted but one of the bombers.

The tragedy came as a result of a month of tension following the desegregation of Birmingham's schools. Black leaders and moderate whites alike had tried to prepare their communities for the inevitable mixing of the races in an effort to forestall any event like the riots that had taken place in the previous Spring, where police and firemen used dogs and fire hoses on demonstrating blacks.

The bombing outraged the nation and gave four little faces to the movement. The blast, combined with other shameful Alabama events, such as the dogs and fire hoses of 1963, and the beatings of demonstrators as they began the Selma to Montgomery march in 1964, contributed to the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the Voting Rights of 1965, and the death of segregation in the South."

-snip-

Click here for more information on the 1963 Birmingham Chruch Bombings

Subject: RE: Victims of the Birmingham bombing
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 10 May 05 - 09:53 AM

Different Birmingham I think. I think Penguin Egg was talking about the IRA bombing of a bar in Birmingham, UK.

Subject: RE: Victims of the Birmingham bombing
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 May 05 - 09:57 AM

Let's figure out what we're discussing here.

1. Birmingham Alabama, the church bombing.

2. Birmingham, West Midlands, UK, the bombing by IRA.

From the reference to the Birmingham 6, I would assume it is UK.

The 6 were the six men whose convictions were quashed because the cops got a little creative with the evidence.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Victims of the Birmingham bombing
From: Peace
Date: 10 May 05 - 10:01 AM

If it's the church bombing, there is Richard Farina's "Birmingham Sunday". Great song. Sad and beautiful memorial and tribute to the kids.

Subject: RE: Victims of the Birmingham bombing
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 05 - 10:02 AM

Spoken like a true brit bigot don. Does the word innocent stick in your throat?

Subject: RE: Victims of the Birmingham bombing
From: GUEST,Bainbo
Date: 10 May 05 - 10:07 AM

Actually, I read Don's post as true Brit understatement, their innocence being so obvious as to not need spelling out.

Isn't there something approaching bigotry in immediately assuming someone has a particular opinion because of where they're from?

Subject: RE: Victims of the Birmingham bombing
From: OtherDave
Date: 10 May 05 - 10:09 AM

A link to the (DigiTrad) lyrics for Farina's song about the Alabama bombing:
Birmingham Sunday

Subject: RE: Victims of the Birmingham bombing
From: Rasener
Date: 10 May 05 - 11:20 AM

This is about my home town Birmingham in England.

I remember it well.

My father walked past the pub that was blown up, just 60 seconds before it happened. As it is, my dad is stiil alive at 89 and kicking.

There was a lot of hatred at the time towards the Irish, and at British Leyland if I remember, they were going to hang an irish person in retaliation.

It was the only time the hairs stood on the back of my neck whenever I heard anybody who was Irish.

Whoever did it were(was) cowards.

However, I don't think that way anymore.

Subject: RE: Victims of the Birmingham bombing
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 May 05 - 12:06 PM

There is what appears to be a reasonably sensible discussion (I have not got much other knowledge) of the judicial process of this case here .


Not for the first time, I wish to make it clear that I am no relation to Lord Justice Bridge.

Those who support the "Dirty Harry" approach to the rule of law might care to consider the events, and wonder about screen actors continuing their careers into politics...

Subject: RE: Victims of the Birmingham bombing
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 10 May 05 - 01:11 PM

Some things are just to painful to write songs about.

For example, one of the most painful things in human life is the death of one's young child. How many songs can you think of about that?

How many songs can you think of about one's home burning up?

Again, some things are just too painful.

Subject: RE: Victims of the Birmingham bombing
From: ard mhacha
Date: 10 May 05 - 02:29 PM

Sorry about that bomb Villian, but your countrys wrongs on the Irish down through the centuries made more than the hair on our neck stand.
Please open the other eye.

Subject: RE: Victims of the Birmingham bombing
From: Azizi
Date: 10 May 05 - 02:42 PM

Sorry about confusing the two bombings.

I learn something new everyday. That's what makes life worthwhile.

Subject: RE: Victims of the Birmingham bombing
From: Peace
Date: 10 May 05 - 02:47 PM

"Sorry about that bomb Villian, but your countrys wrongs on the Irish down through the centuries made more than the hair on our neck stand.
Please open the other eye."

The issue is people who died, not the glorious shite that killed innocents. That has got to be the stupidest thing you've ever said here, ard.

Subject: RE: Victims of the Birmingham bombing
From: GUEST,Guest, D.E. M.O'Crat
Date: 10 May 05 - 03:39 PM

I wouldn't be too sure about that Brucie.

Subject: RE: Victims of the Birmingham bombing
From: GUEST,GUEST
Date: 10 May 05 - 03:55 PM

Since when did a so called ARMY start blowing up civilians out for a pint?

Subject: RE: Victims of the Birmingham bombing
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 05 - 04:56 PM

About two years after a so called ARMY murdered unarmed civilians on a civil rights march.

Subject: RE: Victims of the Birmingham bombing
From: Peace
Date: 10 May 05 - 05:07 PM

So tell me why one army doesn't fight the other army?

Subject: RE: Victims of the Birmingham bombing
From: MartinRyan
Date: 10 May 05 - 05:22 PM

Since there doesn't appear to be much hope of a song, any chance we could move this thread?

Regards

Subject: RE: Victims of the Birmingham bombing
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 05 - 07:09 PM

"Sorry about the bomb, but.."
There it is again.
"Sorry about the camp, but.."
"Sorry about the students but..."
"Sorry about the president, but."
"Sorry about the civilians..but"
"Sorry about the towers, but.."

But means I'm not sorry, I'd do it again, and again, and again, and again.
But means we'll do it back, again, and again, and again, and again.
But means endless misery. But means no progress.
If only we could make them butt out of our lives.

Subject: RE: Victims of the Birmingham bombing
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 May 05 - 07:38 PM

Guest 10.02,

Ever heard of irony? I could have said the b******s stitched 'em up, but I don't fancy being knee deep in speeding tickets.

I don't have a problem with the word innocent, but I don't know whether they WERE innocent, and neither, I suspect, do you.

The injustice was in manufacturing evidence to convict them, which leaves a doubt which might otherwise not have existed, and which cannot now be removed unless the real culprits are found, or decide to make an eventual deathbed confession. For that reason the six ARE innocent in law, and rightly so.

As to your other comment, you might have done better to use the excellent facilities of this forum to look at some of my posts to other threads. Had you done so you would know that this "Brit bigot" can boast several hundred years of pure Irish ancestry on both father's and mother's side, and just happens to be the first of his family to be born in England.

As you chose to post anonymously, I don't have the option to find out anything about your antecedents, so I will refrain from ill informed speculation, while reserving the right to hold an opinion (unexpressed) about same.

Shut the door as you leave
Don T.

Subject: RE: Victims of the Birmingham bombing
From: GUEST,David Ingerson
Date: 10 May 05 - 08:22 PM

Sometimes writing a song is a good way to work through pain. And singing a song is a good way to remember another person's pain.

Mahler wrote a gripping song cycle (I'm guessing 10 songs) on children's deaths--Kindertotenleider (sp?), and one of my favorite classical songs is Shubert's Erlkoenig, words by Goethe, about a distraught father galloping through the dark woods to get his sick child safely home. He finally arrives at his door only to find his child dead in his arms.

Perhaps we need more songs about painful subjects, particularly ones we can choose to avoid. I would much rather sing about either Birmingham bombing than have to read about--or experience--it happening again. Not that the one will necessarily exclude the other--just that it is one step along the way to make all such bombings obsolete.

Here's hoping!

David

Subject: RE: Victims of the Birmingham bombing
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 May 05 - 08:26 PM

You know Don, this is getting quite alarming: we seem to be agreeing more and more!

Subject: RE: Victims of the Birmingham bombing
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 May 05 - 05:12 AM

Couldn't have put it better myself, Richard.

Seriously though, I hate these arguments about innocence/guilt, when the real villains of the story are over zealous cops.

I suspect, if they had let the real evidence speak for itself in court, the whole world would KNOW whether they were innocent or guilty. In that respect the officers involved have done a disservice to all of us, as well as to them.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Victims of the Birmingham bombing
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 May 05 - 05:28 AM

Now, on topic, Apart from the excellent Birmingham Sunday, which I once tried to to add to my repertoire, but couldn't sing because I choked up every time, I know no songs about either Birmingham event.

Perhaps the time has come for some sensitive songsmith to try one for the UK bombing, but I feel that the difficulty would be in finding a focus for the story.

Birmingham Sunday works so well because it is about four identifiable children, which catches the listener on a gut level, and pulls at the instinctive protective instincts that all mammals seem to have toward the very young.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Victims of the Birmingham bombing
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 11 May 05 - 05:54 AM

Don, much as I dislike having to disagree with you I think I have to on two distinct points. a) the villain of the piece; I dont think you can say there is one villain, or even one piece, come to that. The bombing and the subsequent abuse of the legal process were different events each with their own villains.

As to the bombing; the rights and wrongs of armed struggle are deep and it is to easy to stand on one side or another and ignore the truth of the other side. To call people who lay bombs in what they see as a just war cowards and say "what army starts blowing up civilians out for a pint", well the British and American armies have been doing it for years all round the world; from Hiroshima and Dresden to the Childrens hosptal in Tripoli to the wedding party in Iraq.

As for the miscarriage of justice; I think we can be very clear that the Birmingham six were entirely innocent and it was only the accumulated proof that it could not possibly have been them that forced the hand of the authorities into reviewing their convictions. But the real bastards in the process were not the police carried away in the emotions of the atrocity but the judicial system which time and again ignored overwhelming evidence because it would call into question the probity of the legal system itself.

Subject: RE: Victims of the Birmingham bombing
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 May 05 - 07:18 AM

Hey Robbie,

At what point did you get the (entirely erroneous) impression that anything I said related, even peripherally, to expressing an opinion as to the rights or wrongs of the bombing?

My comments all addressed the matter of the conviction, whether or no they were guilty.

If evidence had not been illegally strengthened by the investigating team, who, I would point out, were involved in a number of similar cases, the conviction might not have happened at all. So the question of later handling of the affair might never have arisen. Therefore my comment about the real villains.

I repeat, I do not, and cannot,truly KNOW whether they were guilty or not, and expressed no opinion for that reason. In the context of my original post, their innocence/guilt is not relevant. They are rightly innocent in law, and, while that is not what one would wish, it is, I feel, the best we are ever likely to get.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Victims of the Birmingham bombing
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 May 05 - 07:33 AM

P.S. Re-reading the thread, I find that two comments, which you seem to have attributed to me, were in fact from other posters:-

Whoever did it were(was) cowards.........From The Villan.
"Since when did a so called ARMY start blowing up civilians out for a pint"....From somebody called GUEST,GUEST (so good they named him/her twice).

Could we stick to blaming me for what I do wrong.....Please?

Don T.

Subject: RE: Victims of the Birmingham bombing
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 05 - 11:30 AM

I don't care what you say Robbie. The person/persons who did it are cowards and Ba**ards.

I don't agree with anybody who kills people in that way, whoever they may be.

You almost sound as though you think it is great to do such a thing.

I agree with the 6 being released, but if they didn't do it, who did?

Whatever has happened in History is not my doing and I do not support killing in any way shape or form.

Subject: RE: Victims of the Birmingham bombing
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 05 - 11:32 AM

Robbie Wilson, you are a disgrace.How on earth can you compare WW2 to Irish bandits?

Subject: RE: Victims of the Birmingham bombing
From: GUEST,10th may 10.05
Date: 11 May 05 - 11:42 AM

Don I apologise.

Subject: RE: Victims of the Birmingham bombing
From: Rasener
Date: 11 May 05 - 12:51 PM

Sorry I posted the following earlier and forgot I had come in through the backdoor The Villan.

>>I don't care what you say Robbie. The person/persons who did it are cowards and Ba**ards.

I don't agree with anybody who kills people in that way, whoever they may be.

You almost sound as though you think it is great to do such a thing.

I agree with the 6 being released, but if they didn't do it, who did?

Whatever has happened in History is not my doing and I do not support killing in any way shape or form. <<

Subject: Lyr Add: My darling sleeps in England
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 May 05 - 01:29 PM

Here's a song about a different bombing, about an Irishman killed by German bombs in Birmingham while working over in England. But it struck me when I came across that the verses could have applied as easily to the pub bombing. Whether dropped from planes or delivered by hand, bombs don't care who they kill:

My darling sleeps in England across the Irish Sea,
While I who loved him dearly shall mourn him bitterly,
Shall mourn him night and morning and miss him from my sight,
For in the town of Birmingham my husband Danny died.

The times came hard upon us, my children three and I,
My husband rose one morning with a teardrop in his eye.
He tied his poor belongings and kissed me tenderly,
Saying fare you well my darling wife for I'll cross the Irish Sea.

Each week from English cities a letter came to me
Saying Darling wife, how do you far, likewise your children three?
And when at night you're on your knees to say the rosary,
Remember then your loving Dan, who's across the Irish Sea.

I wrote him back a letter and I said My darling Dan
Young Pat is now a sturdy child and Tom is near a man,
And Flora looks into my eyes and whispers tenderly
God send my daddy safely back from across the Irish Sea.

One evening I was at my work and a knock came to the door;
My heart stood still for I knew that sound some evil to me bore,
And then the cruel tidings I hear most mournfully,
That the cruel bombs had murdered Dan far across the Irish Sea.

I found this printed in a great songbook edited by Karl Dallas, The Cruel Wars, published in 1972 two years before the pub bombing. He says it was collected from the singing of Mary Reynolds of Co Leitrim. The tune is given in the book - it's close enough to the one used for Boston Burglar to use that.

Subject: Lyr Add: My darling sleeps in England
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 May 05 - 01:32 PM

How on earth can you compare WW2 to Irish bandits?

Well, you can actually. Here's a song about an Irishman killed by German bombs in Birmingham while working over in England. But it struck me when I came across it that the verses could have applied as easily to the pub bombing. Whether dropped from planes or delivered by hand, bombs don't care who they kill:

My darling sleeps in England across the Irish Sea,
While I who loved him dearly shall mourn him bitterly,
Shall mourn him night and morning and miss him from my sight,
For in the town of Birmingham my husband Danny died.

The times came hard upon us, my children three and I,
My husband rose one morning with a teardrop in his eye.
He tied his poor belongings and kissed me tenderly,
Saying fare you well my darling wife for I'll cross the Irish Sea.

Each week from English cities a letter came to me
Saying Darling wife, how do you far, likewise your children three?
And when at night you're on your knees to say the rosary,
Remember then your loving Dan, who's across the Irish Sea.

I wrote him back a letter and I said My darling Dan
Young Pat is now a sturdy child and Tom is near a man,
And Flora looks into my eyes and whispers tenderly
God send my daddy safely back from across the Irish Sea.

One evening I was at my work and a knock came to the door;
My heart stood still for I knew that sound some evil to me bore,
And then the cruel tidings I hear most mournfully,
That the cruel bombs had murdered Dan far across the Irish Sea.

I found this printed in a great songbook edited by Karl Dallas, The Cruel Wars, published in 1972 two years before the pub bombing. He says it was collected from the singing of Mary Reynolds of Co Leitrim. The tune is given in the book - it's close enough to the one used for Boston Burglar to use that.

Subject: RE: Victims of the Birmingham bombing
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 05 - 01:36 PM

I wonder if Villan is equally interested in finding out who fired the extra rounds on Bloody Sunday?

Subject: RE: Victims of the Birmingham bombing
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 May 05 - 02:41 PM

Guest 10th May 10.05pm,

Apology gladly accepted and greatly appreciated, and no hard feelings.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Victims of the Birmingham bombing
From: MartinRyan
Date: 11 May 05 - 02:43 PM

McGrath of H:

Haven't heard that. What's the title, please?

Regards

Subject: RE: Victims of the Birmingham bombing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 May 05 - 04:09 PM

Karl Dallas gives it as "My darling sleeps in England" - the note in the book gives no further details about who got it from Mary Reynolds' singing, or where she'd have got it from.

Karl Dallas wrote in that note in the book: "Some have called the melody trite and 'Irish pub tenor' but these words and simple tune are strangely moving, especally as Mary sings them in her high sweet voice." It'd very likely have been the same Mary Reynolds who sings "Brennan on the Moor" on Topic's "The Folk Songs of Britain, Vol. 7. Fair Game and Foul" (which I've never heard), since Karl gives a specific mention of Topic Records in his Acknowledgements section.

Maybe you could ask Karl - I haven't got an address for him, but it shouldn't be hard to track him down.
................................

But I just did a Google for "My Darling Sleeps in England", and got this: MY DARLING SLEEPS IN ENGLAND - Irishman concerned about his girl in Birmingham during the bombing in the Second World War (known as "The Blitz") -- Mary REYNOLDS rec by Seamus Ennis, Mohill, Co Leitrim 1954: RPL 22028 (From here

Mind from that (it sounds as if whoever wrote it hadn't actually heard the song ("Irishman concerned about his girl in Birmingham"), or maybe Mary had two versions.)

Frank Harte would be the man to ask though.

Subject: RE: Victims of the Birmingham bombing
From: Rasener
Date: 11 May 05 - 04:47 PM

Actually I would

Subject: RE: Victims of the Birmingham bombing
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 11 May 05 - 05:52 PM

Don,
It was over your post on the miscarriage of justice I was disagreeing with you and did not intend to ascribe any of the other comments to which I reacted to you. I am sorry if I upset you through appearing to do so.

While it is true it was the police who set the ball rolling by beating confessions out of these six men and without the confessions Lord Denning said there would not have been sufficient evidence to charge them, much less find them guilty. This manufactured evidence does not, as you put it leave the possibility that they may be innocent, it created the suggestion they might be guilty in the first place. Without it there is nothing.

However the judiciary are supposed to protect us from over zealous policemen and for years let these men rot in the face of overwhelming evidence that they had nothing to do with the bombings, because to do otherwise was to challenge the probity of the whole legal and penal sytstem. The prison officers at Winson Green and the police officers who inflicted such visible damage on these men may have wrongly thought they were callous butchers who deserved what they got but Lord Denning did not. He knew them to be innocent but judged it easier to let innocent Paddies rot in jail than challenge the establishment that put them there. And but for the persistence of a handful of decent people on the outside he would have been correct.

If you don't remember the details read the link Richard Bridge put in. I remember the photographs from the time of the appeal. I remember Denning's statement when he turned them down before. We do know these are innocent men, not in some legalistic technical way but as much as we can know anything. We know who the guilty men are, the police know and have known from soon after the events who the guilty men are.

I suspect you would not like it said about you that you have been beating your lovely wife and while you are legally innocent, because you have not been convicted, no one can be sure you do not do so. I don't think you should be making that kind of statement about other people.

Subject: RE: Victims of the Birmingham bombing
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 11 May 05 - 06:05 PM

Villan,
I do not think that the Birmingham pub bombings were great. I abhor all acts of war and senseless slaughter. What I try not to do is only see the carnage when it happens to me and mine. I realise that your perspective is altered by how close you and your father were to the event. I am with you in that I also do not support killing in any way shape or form.

As for the nameless guest who calls me a disgrace and asks how can I compare WW11 with Irish bandits; I didn't. I likened the slaughter of thousands of innocent people in their homes to the slaughter of innocent people down the pub.

Subject: RE: Victims of the Birmingham bombing
From: Rasener
Date: 12 May 05 - 01:35 AM

Seems like we all agree with each other then!!!!

Subject: RE: Victims of the Birmingham bombing
From: MartinRyan
Date: 12 May 05 - 04:04 AM

McGrath of H

Just curious - I've no recollection of hearing of the song - though the singer's name rang a bell alright. I'll ask Frank about it when I get a chance.

Thanks for the backgrouind.

Regards