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Bawdy Song:-----has a Micro Pen*s (thread titles?)

JedMarum 12 May 05 - 01:27 PM
Joe Offer 12 May 05 - 01:33 PM
Peace 12 May 05 - 02:44 PM
Joe Offer 12 May 05 - 04:51 PM
open mike 12 May 05 - 05:08 PM
George Papavgeris 12 May 05 - 05:15 PM
GUEST 12 May 05 - 05:18 PM
Bill D 12 May 05 - 05:20 PM
JedMarum 12 May 05 - 05:21 PM
JedMarum 12 May 05 - 05:29 PM
GUEST,Joe Offer 12 May 05 - 07:29 PM
wysiwyg 12 May 05 - 08:15 PM
Blissfully Ignorant 12 May 05 - 09:00 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 12 May 05 - 11:02 PM
Bill D 12 May 05 - 11:27 PM
Chip2447 12 May 05 - 11:31 PM
George Papavgeris 12 May 05 - 11:34 PM
Chip2447 12 May 05 - 11:43 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 13 May 05 - 12:06 AM
Peace 13 May 05 - 10:16 AM
Jeri 13 May 05 - 12:15 PM
Peace 13 May 05 - 01:37 PM
Bill D 13 May 05 - 02:05 PM
Azizi 13 May 05 - 02:05 PM
Azizi 13 May 05 - 02:09 PM
Azizi 13 May 05 - 02:16 PM
Blissfully Ignorant 13 May 05 - 02:45 PM
Blissfully Ignorant 13 May 05 - 03:19 PM
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Subject: Bawdy Song: Mehlberg has a Micro Pen*s
From: JedMarum
Date: 12 May 05 - 01:27 PM

Maybe this is a good example of how titles for these "music" threads ought to be handled.

You can list all your poopy words in detail within the body of the thread - so you can giggle and titter (he said TITter) at those funny things in public ... without spitting in the eye of the rest of us looking at the thread list.


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Subject: RE: Bawdy Song: Mehlberg has a Micro Pen*s
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 May 05 - 01:33 PM

You know, Jed, there's an existing thread on this topic called Objection to Bawdy Song Titles in Forum Menu. I fail to see why you find a need to start a new thread with a title like this. Seems like an ad hominem attack, not a discussion of what could be a valid issue. I'm going to drop Mr. Mehlberg's name from the thread title. It seems that every time we get a person's name in a thread title, the thread turns into a personal attack. Certainly, it's worthwhile to discuss the use of questionable words in thread titles, just like it's worthwhile to discuss a performer's misconduct at a concert (click). But when you direct the discussion into an attack on a person, it's a problem - far more of a problem than an occasional naughty word.

I admit I'm torn on the issue. I agree wholeheartedly that words like "vagina" and "motherfucker" in a thread title make me very uncomfortable. But on the other side, I think John's research is very important, and I've found a lot of fascinating stuff on his Website.

I also hate to see prudish censoring like v*g*na on the list of thread titles, and I hate to see anything done that might serve to stifle John's work. I sincerely believe that we lost a lot in the way collectors bowdlerized sea songs and other traditonal songs. Even Randolph couldn't publish all the songs he collected in the Ozarks - those songs had to wait for Legman to publish them in another age.

So, I'm still looking for a resonable solution.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Bawdy Song:-----has a Micro Pen*s (thread titles?)
From: Peace
Date: 12 May 05 - 02:44 PM

John should help find a reasonable solution. He isn't adding much to the 'cat. The stuff he gets from here will benefit his site. So, maybe he could change jus' a bit and things will be ticketyboo. Until then I won't post to his threads. Period.

Also, I think the title of this thread was inappropriate.


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Subject: RE: Bawdy Song:-----has a Micro Pen*s (thread titl
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 May 05 - 04:51 PM

That's nice, Brucie, but what would you suggest he should do? John is actually quite concerned, and he's looking for a solution. Until we come up with one, I've asked him to continue using the song titles in the thread titles.

I suppose I could give him a PermaThread where he can index the songs with their real titles, and then he can title objectionably-titled songs "Bawdy A, B, C, etc." That's a bit clumsy, though. I can't see putting euphemisms in thread titles - that's just too Victorian. Maybe the idea would be to assign a tag to bawdy song threads that would make those threads invisible to people who visited Mudcat without a cookie, or to Mudcatters with normal cookies. Registered people who have no objection to such threads could have their cookies set for full access, and the threads could also be indexed in a "Bawdy" PermaThread, so all could access them if they want to. That way, John could title the threads with the title of the songs, and we wouldn't have to resort to prudery. What do you think?
This is a matter of an ongoing, honest search for a solution. Please don't pin blame on John - he's a good guy, trying to do honest research into an aspect of folk music that has been suppressed in days gone by. Do we really want to continue to suppress it? Is that what a folk music forum is suppose to do - sanitize songs for consumption by polite society?

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Bawdy Song:-----has a Micro Pen*s (thread titl
From: open mike
Date: 12 May 05 - 05:08 PM

Joe, you ASKED him to continue using the titles
even though there are so many objections??!!

That is no solution..

When John continues to be explicit in the thread
titles despite so many complaints, he is not
attempting to find any solution, and neither
are you, if you encourage him to continue
behavior which has been offending so many.

*Asterisk*s are the answer**


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Subject: RE: Bawdy Song:-----has a Micro Pen*s (thread titles?)
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 May 05 - 05:15 PM

Joe, euphemisms in the titles are Victorian, only if we use them for the same reasons as the Victorians. If we use them as a ruse to get round a technical problem, then it's just a tool.

Anyway, what's wrong with a bit of Victoriana as a nod to the traditionalists...:-)


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Subject: RE: Bawdy Song:-----has a Micro Pen*s (thread titles?)
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 05 - 05:18 PM

If John is really trying to find a solution and is not just trying to wave his dick in our face, then he could easily find one ... an asterisk is obviously one easy way out.

If he simply wants to prove that everyone around him is a'prude' and a simplton then he will continue to find ways to offend, even with asterisks.

As far as the title of the thread - there is a Rugby song I heard in England, sung by a club in Henley-on-Thames called, "Buster Has A Micro Penis." It was sung to the tune of Jack and Jill Went up the Hill ... and as I recall, poked fun at a Whippet trying to hump a Greyhound. I presumed John would understand the reference.


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Subject: RE: Bawdy Song:-----has a Micro Pen*s (thread titl
From: Bill D
Date: 12 May 05 - 05:20 PM

Joe- I hardly think that asking for some discretion that keep Mudcat accessible to the gtreatest number of people is "sanitizing" any songs. We are supressing nothing. The songs are right there, just below the surface for those who CHOOSE to open that thread.

One might ask: How did we manage for several years before this? We have certainly had many bawdy songs mentioned, quoted and added....and until now folks didn't seem to feel the need to splash some very explicit and tasteless names directly in thread titles.

Euphemisms can be silly and stupid...or they can serve a useful purpose by simply deflecting anger & upsets while we continue doing exactly what we wish...quietly.

We rightfully decry total censorship and stupid expurgation, but we will ALWAYS have those who, for whatever reason, do not like reading "motherfucker" as they scan music threads. We will not change this by wearing Joun Mehlberg's chip on our shoulder!

In our area there is a town which has carefully controlled that size & type of display signs for businesses. They do not say you can't sell hamburgers or mattresses, they just say you can't have 40 ft. tall neon signs fronting on the road advertising them. Everyone knows exactly where to go to get a hamburger, but it is much pleasanter to drive through. I kinda wish more areas would use 'taste' as one zoning parameter.
(In the same way, I think that many big city 'red light' and porno districts would have been left alone if they had not insisted on the garish red & yellow storefronts and garish, juvenile names for the stores! It didn't have to be a secret to know where to buy 'adult' magazines and blow-up dolls, but you didn't have to explain it to the kids and grandma, either. By the way..I KNOW...I worked in an adult bookstore for 3 years which did NOT put up garish displays and attracted a much better class of perverts ..um...clientle. *grin*)

Boy, this discussion sure has focused my mind on the issue, and forced me to look at BOTH the moral and the pragmatic side of things.


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Subject: RE: Bawdy Song:-----has a Micro Pen*s (thread titles?)
From: JedMarum
Date: 12 May 05 - 05:21 PM

Sorry - that last one was me, without my cookie.


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Subject: RE: Bawdy Song:-----has a Micro Pen*s (thread titles?)
From: JedMarum
Date: 12 May 05 - 05:29 PM

Right on Bill!

Perfectly put.


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Subject: RE: Bawdy Song:-----has a Micro Pen*s (thread titl
From: GUEST,Joe Offer
Date: 12 May 05 - 07:29 PM

Well, I came over here to the children's section of the library, to see how their filter works. It doesn't filter out any of the thread titles John has posted.

Yes, I asked John not to change anything until Jeff and I have had a chance to come up with a solution. Asterisks tend to gum up search engines and to arouse the wrath of anti-censorship people, so they're not an adequate solution. It seems to me that until we come up with something that works, we shouldn't stop John from doing an honest job of what he's doing. So, I told him to keep on doing what he's doing until we come up with a solution, that he shouldn't get too skittish about all the heat we've gotten about his thread titles. We do have a temporary solution - there is a filter in the FAQ and in the Help Forum that will allow you to view the Forum Menu without any of the PG13 thread titles. We will have a permanent solution when we have one that most everybody agrees with. In the meantime, use the filter.

So, instead of creating a stink, what do you think of the solution I proposed above? The "default" access would filter out all bawdy songs, but those of us who don't mind would be able to set our cookie to allow full access. In addition, there would be a PermaThread with a full listing of bawdy songs, so people could access them if they desired. I haven't run the idea past Jeff yet, but I think it should fly, since it's similar to the way his "BS" filter works.

In the meantime, what I'm looking for is ideas and opinions, not complaints. The idea is to work toward a solution that is acceptable to everyone.

And I'm sorry, although I don't use vulgarities in common speech, I firmly believe that asterisks and euphemisms are NOT a solution.

-Joe Offer, uncensored in the children's section of the library-
(what a treat it is to use this fast connection)


You know, maybe it's natural that I wouldn't get overly shaken by certain words in thread titles. Click here to see some of the titles of songs my kid wrote.


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Subject: RE: Bawdy Song:-----has a Micro Pen*s (thread titles?)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 May 05 - 08:15 PM

WE ALREADY HAVE A POLICY, FOLKS!

Just page down to the bright yellow box containing the Explicit Lyrics Alert.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: Bawdy Song:-----has a Micro Pen*s (thread titles?)
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 12 May 05 - 09:00 PM

It seems to me the only real problem is profanity filters...


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Subject: RE: Bawdy Song:-----has a Micro Pen*s (thread titl
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 12 May 05 - 11:02 PM

TRACKING ROOTS-

Orignally.....my MC-apperiance occured because of a rec: posting from Abby Sale.......Harp Girl "connected".....and for many years following I believed "Harpy" to be "Abby" (who I believed was an Abby (female) I had once dated)

To try and set matters straight (is that word permitted?)

Abby is not Harpgirl

Harpgirl is not Harpy

Gargoyle is not a a black-male from Compton, California

The "harvesting" of Bawdy-Songs has always been a pleasure of Dick/Susan. Peculiar - pig-songs are also welcome.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

With arthritis setting in.....it is not conveniant to jump-off the perch.......and strut, and peck, and fester about......But.....John M..... belongs in the oldest of the DT traditions.


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Subject: RE: Bawdy Song:-----has a Micro Pen*s (thread titles?)
From: Bill D
Date: 12 May 05 - 11:27 PM

I see by WSI's post that we do "already have a policy", and as far as it goes, I am ok with what it says....but if you read carefully, it does NOT address the issue at hand.

"... If you're going to post something spicy and think you should label it, that's fine - but there is no requirement for labeling here and visitors are advised that they read at their own risk."

This, as I read it, refers to the contents....that is, the lyrics or words inside the thread. The policy says that folks who open thread do so under advisement and at their own risk! If that policy is to be explicitly extended to the thread titles as well, that should be made absolutely clear.

I have made my argument for discretion in TITLES, but if the final ruling is that we will not ask for ANY restraint, I will shut up and live with the decision, and we will all live with the fallout and repercussions in the future.

'nuff said.


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Subject: RE: Bawdy Song:-----has a Micro Pen*s (thread titles?)
From: Chip2447
Date: 12 May 05 - 11:31 PM

Joe,


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Subject: RE: Bawdy Song:-----has a Micro Pen*s (thread titles?)
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 May 05 - 11:34 PM

Go on, Chip, get it off your chest


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Subject: RE: Bawdy Song:-----has a Micro Pen*s (thread titles?)
From: Chip2447
Date: 12 May 05 - 11:43 PM

Let me try this again. I have no objections to any word(s) used in Thread titles, they are just words. If it were me, I'd leave things just the way they are. It's not me though. So, in lieu of censorship I would agree with your proposal of limited acess for those who chose not to view "objectional" thread titles.
   
How about the same treatment for any thread about politics, or Shatner?. Or maybe, for threads containing posts from people I don't agree with or from those whose opinion I don't want to hear?

Chip2447


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Subject: RE: Bawdy Song:-----has a Micro Pen*s (thread titles?)
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 13 May 05 - 12:06 AM

I would vote twice to shit on a Shattner swat.

Sincerely
Gargoyle

With membership comes its privialages!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: Bawdy Song:-----has a Micro Pen*s (thread titles?)
From: Peace
Date: 13 May 05 - 10:16 AM

"That's nice, Brucie, but what would you suggest he should do? John is actually quite concerned, and he's looking for a solution. Until we come up with one, I've asked him to continue using the song titles in the thread titles."

There has to be another way that would satisfy taste and research requirements. Personally, I don't care. However, many people do for good reasons.

If I start a thread entitled "FUCK THE POPE", and if anyone complains based on religious, moral or other grounds, my fallback position is that I am quoting Sinead O'Connor. Maybe, I should entitle the thread something like "SINEAD'S REMARK ABOUT THE POPE".

I don't want to stifle John's research. Most of the material isn't to my taste, but the field is worthy of understanding and archiving if for no other reason than to trace and trac what people perceive to be 'dirty' or 'bawdy' or 'tawdry'. So, please understand that I am not anti-research, simply anti thread titles that are deemed offensive by many folk.

Bruce


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Subject: RE: Bawdy Song:-----has a Micro Pen*s (thread titl
From: Jeri
Date: 13 May 05 - 12:15 PM

They're words, and that's all they are. This is above the line in the music section, where people will search for songs based on their titles. They will not look for asterisks and unconventional spellings of words.

I score English essay responses for a living, and you don't know how sad it is to see a poor child who can't spell out 'fuck this test' properly. Some spell 'fuck' as 'f*ck', some 'fu*k', some 'feck' (the Irish ones, I'd guess), some 'fock' (Catspaw's relatives), some don't understand the whole concept of vowels and spell it 'fck'. Tell any children you know that an essay is more than one phrase or sentence, and if they plan on using profanity, they should learn how to spell it. But I digress...

There are many songs with titles that aren't rude even if the songs are. Say a child is looking for a song with an historical theme, and searches for, say, 'pioneers'. Go ahead - pretend you're a kid, and type the word into the grey box up top and hit 'search'. Click on the second title, 'PIONEERS'. Good thing it had a nice, polite title, isn't it. Otherwise, you might have known right off the bat that it wasn't the sort of song you were looking for.

I think the PG13 version of Mudcat (with filters) would be the best way to go. I think accessibility is the issue, and if one dirty word in one song title prevents someone from being able to access the rest of Mudcat, something should be done about it. If it's just a matter of a "HMPFF! Well, I NEVER!!!" sort of rectal entomology, I'd ignore it. That's just me, though. I don't think words hurt people; people hurt people. I think rudeness involves how one throws their personality around, not what words they use when doing it. I'd rather see multiple 'profane' thread titles than one title meant to personally attack someone.

On another note, "____ has a Micro Penis" has possibilities, but maybe 'dick' would work better, since there are more rhymes.


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Subject: RE: Bawdy Song:-----has a Micro Pen*s (thread titles?)
From: Peace
Date: 13 May 05 - 01:37 PM

Dick has a micro penis?


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Subject: RE: Bawdy Song:-----has a Micro Pen*s (thread titles?)
From: Bill D
Date: 13 May 05 - 02:05 PM

"They're words, and that's all they are."

Words are WAY more than just items in a dictionary...

*insert 9 paragraph treatise on the power and subjective influence of the nuances of language on our culture, psychological profiles and interpersonal dynamics*

thank you for your rapt attention.


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Subject: RE: Bawdy Song:-----has a Micro Pen*s (thread titles?)
From: Azizi
Date: 13 May 05 - 02:05 PM

That's so sad.


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Subject: RE: Bawdy Song:-----has a Micro Pen*s (thread titles?)
From: Azizi
Date: 13 May 05 - 02:09 PM

In case there's any confusion, I was referring to Richard's tool.


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Subject: RE: Bawdy Song:-----has a Micro Pen*s (thread titles?)
From: Azizi
Date: 13 May 05 - 02:16 PM

I bet somebody has done a study on the 'psychological profiles and interpersonal dynamics' of the effect of the nickname 'Dick' on otherwise respectable males who were blessed with the name "Richard".

I would expect that this nickname is devastating to those who are micro, or even of average or above average size.

Not that I'm advocating that the researcher check sizes or anything..

I'm just sayin...


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Subject: RE: Bawdy Song:-----has a Micro Pen*s (thread titles?)
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 13 May 05 - 02:45 PM


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Subject: RE: Bawdy Song:-----has a Micro Pen*s (thread titles?)
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 13 May 05 - 03:19 PM

Ooops.... i meant to say can i volunteer to do this, um, very important research? Checking sizes too, of course. Friday night seems like a good place to start...:)


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