Origins: Do they matter

Subject: RE: Origins: Do they matter
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 17 May 05 - 05:42 AM

I quite agree origins are important, although the story of the song itself is equally so.
Take for instance a review of an Old Blind Dogs CD I read online where it claims that the Battle of Harlaw is about fleeing Highlanders being massacred by British soldiers.

Subject: RE: Origins: Do they matter
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 05 - 07:46 AM

I believe there always has been and always will be two schools of thought on this. First school: "the tradition is the thing" (the "origins matter" folks here). Second school: "the music/song is the thing" (interested and amused by the "origins" and "story of the song" but that isn't the reason behind their passion).

One isn't right and the other wrong. It's just a different strokes sorta thing.

Subject: RE: Origins: Do they matter
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 05 - 08:03 AM

Another observation--with a living tradition, like Irish trad, folks seem more interested in the music/song and far less interested in origins. They are interested in the music, even "the tradition" but it would be tradition with a small 't'.

Folks into revival of once living music traditions seem more interested in the origins and academic side of the music generally.

The former often seems much less concerned with "historical accuracy" or "authenticity" than the latter, too. The former often being into the music for music sake and the craic, rather than how knowledgeable one is about the written historical trail of the music and songs.

That said, everyone seems to be interested in a good story behind the song--but as I said, the story is only as good as the teller makes it, just like a song is only as good as the singer makes it.

The vast majority of the written record about traditional music is a bloody bore to read, poorly informed, full of nostalgic, nationalist crap.

Others mileage may vary, of course.

Subject: RE: Origins: Do they matter
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 May 05 - 04:49 PM

It is, of course, equally possible to enjoy yourself if you spell it "crack" or "craic". The great appropriators of other people's music are the Irish and English (to be a litttle more specific, the American Irish and the English English). I applaud Art Thieme's,Azizi's and Torctyd's(spelling?) delight in their interest in origins, in a non-argumentative way.

Subject: RE: Origins: Do they matter
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 05 - 06:21 PM

And each to their own, eh?

Subject: RE: Origins: Do they matter
From: Torctgyd
Date: 19 May 05 - 12:14 PM

Thanks to all for your responses to make an interesting discussion.

I may be making this up though, but I would like to respond to points made about English and Irish claiming as many songs and tunes as they can get their hands on (obviously I'm paraphrasing here). But I just wonder how Basques (for example) would be castigated in the same way in trying to differentiate their music from either Spanish or French?

Once again I'd like to make it clear that I'm not saying that (or in favor of) using the origins of a song or a tune to prescribe what should and shouldn't be played by any particular person or group; just that I think it is important for the origins to be known.

T

Subject: RE: Origins: Do they matter
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 19 May 05 - 01:29 PM

Play whatever you like, but don't go around saying the Wild Rover is an Irish song because you heard it on an old Dubliners LP, for example.

Subject: RE: Origins: Do they matter
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 05 - 01:37 PM

Why not? It IS an Irish song when performed by the Dubliners!

Subject: RE: Origins: Do they matter
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 19 May 05 - 03:16 PM

No, they make it their own when they sing it, but doesn't mean it's Irish.
I could sing a Bratislavan song, would it be Israeli?
I suppose you agree with whoever it was on some cheapo compilation the best of irish Folk or whatever that had Goodnight Irene.

Subject: RE: Origins: Do they matter
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 20 May 05 - 05:56 AM

Knowing the origins of songs can save you getting into pointless arguments about them e.g. knowing that the wild rover is of English origin you don't introduce it as Irish and get some smart arsed musicologist telling you how wrong you are. Equally, if you are smart, you don't contradict the poopular misconception unless you are in the mood for an argument. Just get on and sing the song.

The great beauty in old songs is that they do have a history behind them and so can be of more interest than just their sound. But let's not get all self important and self righteous by talking about responsibility and so on. As fr s music goes I don't have a responsibility to anyone I sing, play, look into and discuss music because I enjoy it. I also enjoy sharing what I have learned with other people but if they don't want to know, fine. Their loss.