Help with Welsh please

Subject: Help with Welsh please
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 May 05 - 05:54 PM

I need a little help deciphering a fiddle tune title. Is there a Welsh word that is pronounced (approximately) either due or dewy, and if so what does it(they) mean? I would be most grateful for any advice.

Subject: RE: Help with Welsh please
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 May 05 - 05:56 PM

Duw? (God)

Subject: RE: Help with Welsh please
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 May 05 - 06:04 PM

God doesnt fit, I dont think. Now, if there was a word something like this that meant saintly or holy it might do. Any other ideas?

Subject: RE: Help with Welsh please
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 05 - 06:06 PM

Another thought. For dewy,

Maybe something like (ry)dw i? (I am)

Subject: RE: Help with Welsh please
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 19 May 05 - 06:14 PM

What does the rest of the tune title sound like ? That would give us more of a chance of suggesting a suitable title.
Mary

Subject: RE: Help with Welsh please
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 May 05 - 06:19 PM

Let me explain: the Cumbrian fiddler William Irwin(19th century) had a son, Edwin, who wrote an account of his dad's activities. His dad was taught fiddle by a famous Keswick fiddler, Gillespie(Christian name unknown to me), in about 1820. Now Edwin said that his dad reckoned he wasnt the world's greatest fiddler, and that his teacher Gillespie in particular was much better at playing "Due Mungo" than he was.
So, we can place a tune called Due Mungo in Cumbria in the early 19th century. but what does the title refer to? Mungo was a saint, well known in Cumbria and Scotland, but was also a Christian name. Welsh(or a variant of it) was the language in Cumbria in the time of Mungo, and lasted till maybe the 1300's in some remote parts. So it's probably a very long shot, but just barely possible, that the Welsh language was where I should look to make sense of this peculiar title "Due Mungo". What I dont know is whether Edwin was writing his father's pronunciation down, or his spelling. hence my wondering whether it's pronounced due or possibly dewy.

Subject: RE: Help with Welsh please
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 May 05 - 06:21 PM

Of course, I would welcome any other suggestions...the Welsh idea is a wild guess, a tune title lying around in a dead language in Cumbria for 500 years is a bit of a romantic idea. But who knows?

Subject: RE: Help with Welsh please
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 May 05 - 06:23 PM

Or maybe it's Scottish Gaelic, which might be more likely, in terms of linguistic history.

Subject: RE: Help with Welsh please
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 19 May 05 - 06:27 PM

I'm stumped.
If it was Mungo Dew, it could possibly be Fat Mungo, with 'Tew' meaning fat.But it would be pronounced day-oo, rather than due ( at least in my part of the north of Wales.)
Anyone else with ideas?
M

Subject: RE: Help with Welsh please
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 May 05 - 06:31 PM

Not me Mary. I only have fragments of Welsh from later primary school and eary secondary school and bits picked up here and there.

What part of N Wales btw? I lived in the Llandudno area.

Subject: RE: Help with Welsh please
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 May 05 - 06:37 PM

How do you pronounce the Welsh dewi, as in St David..he's called "dewi" isnt he?

Subject: RE: Help with Welsh please
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 May 05 - 06:42 PM

He is Dewi Sant. That brings up another problem - sant means saint - David Saint - not Saint David.

Subject: RE: Help with Welsh please
From: breezy
Date: 19 May 05 - 06:47 PM

Dewi Sant

back to Duw

yes it means God,


so

God Mungo

now

sometimes the Welsh does not make sense to anyone apart from us welsh

like

go and scratch!

was a saying weell before scratch cards were common place I hasten to add.

us Welsh were always advanced for the rest of the world.

just play the frigging tune Greg, if its any good.

But play it in Welsh mind

Subject: RE: Help with Welsh please
From: BanjoRay
Date: 19 May 05 - 07:53 PM

Well, In the Aberystwyth University online dictionary I found a word "mynog" (pronounced muh-nog, with the accent on the muh)which seems to be a rare adjective meaning noble or princely, so Due Mungo could possibly come from a mutated Duw Mynog, which would mean Noble God. Duw is pronounced like the English word "due".
Which could of course be totally inappropriate!
Cheers
Ray

Subject: RE: Help with Welsh please
From: sian, west wales
Date: 20 May 05 - 04:44 AM

Well, tunes arent' my forte, but I've looked in Cass Meurig's "Alawon John Thomas: a fiddler's tune book from 18th C. Wales" and there's nothing close. I'm not keen on guesses, as they usually lead a person farther astray, but - what the hell - it's a grant Mudcat tradition and my guess would be, "Duwiol Mungo", lit. Godly Mungo.

Of course, if you really want to know, I suggest going to Cass Meurig's website and sending her a message. I suppose Bob Evans (Bragod) might, but I think Cass is originally from the North of England somewhere so ...

sian

Subject: RE: Help with Welsh please
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 20 May 05 - 04:50 AM

Whats the problem, Jon? That's just how the language is structured. Lot's have a different order than in English.

Subject: RE: Help with Welsh please
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 20 May 05 - 05:10 AM

Yes I'm aware of that Allen. The problem seemed to be if the word Saint is placed after the name as in Dewi Sant and Greg was looking for something like "Dewy Mungo" to mean "Saint Mungo", the order would have shifted to put "Saint" before the name.

Subject: RE: Help with Welsh please
From: mindblaster
Date: 20 May 05 - 05:17 AM

You can help yourself, man.

Can't you? There's luverly!

Subject: RE: Help with Welsh please
From: Brian Hoskin
Date: 20 May 05 - 05:29 AM

I believe Dewi is pronounced Dhowi and so wouldn't fit anyway.

Subject: RE: Help with Welsh please
From: BanjoRay
Date: 20 May 05 - 05:42 AM

Dhowi's at least as far from the pronunciation of Dewi as is Dewey.
The nearest English equivalent is probably "Dare we" if you leave out the r
Ray

Subject: RE: Help with Welsh please
From: sian, west wales
Date: 20 May 05 - 06:49 AM

Dewi isn't, actually, David. It's a separate name. (DEwee, with the first E a 'short' one.) But Dewi Sant and St David are the same person.

And don't get hung up on the placement of adjectives and whatever. Adjectives and other descriptive add-ons are usually tacked on the back-side, but sometimes on the front for poetic/aesthetic rationale i.e. 'bywiol ddwfr Esecial' = the living water of Ezekial, because it scans better within the carol. Also, if we're talking 'verrrry old' tune, things like grammar and spelling were far less prescribed in other ages. So "Duwiol Mungo' (and I'm still saying that's just a guess from way out in left-field) (sorry - North American baseball analogy) is still a possibility.

sian

Subject: RE: Help with Welsh please
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 20 May 05 - 08:38 AM

My apologies Jon, I misread your post.

Subject: RE: Help with Welsh please
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 May 05 - 12:55 PM

Thanks for all the help. You we appreciate, it is not a Welsh tune I am looking for(as in "tune form Wales").What we have is an old Cumbrian(Scottish borders) tune. And I think it is barely, dimly possible that it's title might just conceivably be a memory when this part of England(and some contiguous parts of Scotland) were inhabited by people who spoke the British language which is now called Welsh. But I must admit I havent got a shred of evidence to back this suggestion up, nor even any credible suggestion as to what that name might mean(though the godly Mungo is the sort of region I was thinking about.
    It's really just the sort of thing us romantic old folklorists would like to be true! A more rational(and very prosaic) explanaton, is that Gillespie wrote the tune, named it for a pal called Dew Mungo(a noted local manufacturerer of contraband hooch), and couldnt spell Dew.

Subject: RE: Help with Welsh please
From: BanjoRay
Date: 20 May 05 - 01:05 PM

It's a good job you didn't tell us about a noted good ol' moonshiner called Dew Mungo, because we wouldn't have had this interesting discussion, hunting the web by the light of the midnight oil!
Cheers
Ray

Subject: RE: Help with Welsh please
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 May 05 - 01:19 PM

Well, Dew Mungo the moonshiner from 1800 is just another plausible guess, as good as Saintly Mungo from 1300AD! Keep the ideas coming. What would be great if another version of the tune title turned up with alternative spelling that might give us a better guide as to pronunciation.

Subject: RE: Help with Welsh please
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 May 05 - 06:51 AM

refresh

Subject: RE: Help with Welsh please
From: Snuffy
Date: 21 May 05 - 04:33 PM

"Humungo" was a variation of "humongous" when referring to only one person! :-)

Subject: RE: Help with Welsh please
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 May 05 - 04:02 PM

Guest; may have hit it early on in the thread.

I am Mungo can be "rydw i Mungo", which in turn would be contracted as "dw'i Mungo" pronounced "do(as in to do) ee Mungo"

Nigel

Subject: RE: Help with Welsh please
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 May 05 - 04:15 PM

Thanks to Nigel and aguest for this "I am Mungo" suggestionn. It is phonetically plausible, though an odd title. But William Irwin specialied in odd titles. Rwo of his other tunes are called "Is there anyone here knows General Jackson", and"Over the dyke bellow".

Subject: RE: Help with Welsh please
From: pavane
Date: 23 May 05 - 07:47 AM

I used to play for Clog dancers Dwy Droed Chwith (Two left feet)
in which Dwy means TWO

Dwy Droed Chwith

Subject: RE: Help with Welsh please
From: pavane
Date: 26 May 05 - 07:08 AM

Clarification
The reason for using DWY in this phrase is that feet are of feminine gender.

Subject: RE: Help with Welsh please
From: GUEST,valleys girl
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 04:23 PM

can anyone breakdown the name dewi for me as i have a big debate on my hands. i have had 3 different ways of saying it. the three ways being:

Dew-ee

Dow-ee

Dar-wee

Please help me out on this asap

Subject: RE: Help with Welsh please
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 06:46 PM

The Welsh of Strathclyde which included Cumbria was a very distinct dialect from the Welsh of what is now Wales and modern Welsh has probably developed at least as much from those days as English has from its pre Chaucerian form. Add the passage of the name through non-Welsh speakers and even the association with St Mungo becomes problamatical.

Subject: RE: Help with Welsh please
From: Liath
Date: 01 Dec 05 - 04:31 AM

Well, if it's Borders, it might be something linked with my lot - one of my great-something-or-anothers was Mungo Park, a once famous explorer from Selkirk.

Whether the song refers to him or not, it tells us that Mungo was a name in use in the Borders area in the 18th century.

btw, if there is an outside chance that this fiddle tune was composed in honour of my ancestor, I'd love to hear it :-)

Liath