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I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes

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Azizi 30 May 06 - 07:22 AM
Azizi 30 May 06 - 07:47 AM
GUEST,Spain 30 May 06 - 10:30 AM
Azizi 30 May 06 - 01:58 PM
GUEST,thurg 31 May 06 - 12:36 AM
GUEST,C 31 May 06 - 01:55 PM
Tannywheeler 01 Jun 06 - 02:16 PM
Azizi 01 Jun 06 - 03:53 PM
GUEST 01 Jun 06 - 08:37 PM
GUEST 01 Jun 06 - 11:49 PM
GUEST,thurg 02 Jun 06 - 01:27 AM
Azizi 02 Jun 06 - 07:54 AM
Azizi 02 Jun 06 - 08:19 AM
Tannywheeler 03 Jun 06 - 06:17 AM
Azizi 03 Jun 06 - 07:25 AM
GUEST,thurg 03 Jun 06 - 11:18 AM
Azizi 03 Jun 06 - 11:57 AM
GUEST,Megan 03 Jun 06 - 09:55 PM
GUEST,katsa 24 Aug 06 - 04:06 PM
Azizi 24 Aug 06 - 05:10 PM
GUEST,Sheree 04 Oct 06 - 02:10 PM
Forsh 04 Oct 06 - 02:38 PM
Snuffy 04 Oct 06 - 03:10 PM
Azizi 04 Oct 06 - 05:17 PM
Azizi 04 Oct 06 - 05:36 PM
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Azizi 05 Oct 06 - 08:42 PM
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Azizi 27 Oct 06 - 06:07 PM
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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 30 May 06 - 07:22 AM

Hello, GuestSpain.

Here's a second verse that was performed by 'urban' high school cheerleaders on the 1986 movie "Wildcat":

M-O-M-M-A
That is how you got that way
Your Momma
Hey Hey*
Your Momma.

* Instead of "Hey Hey", I've also seen examples of "Yeah Yeah" or "What What"

-snip-

Btw, I think that "Wildcats" got "U-G-L-Y" from the kids. But I'd bet that the rhyne gained in popularity because of its inclusion in that movie. The earliest date I've been given for this rhyme is from the 1980s {Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania}, but it might have been chanted earlier than that in Pittsburgh or elsewhere}.

Here's another example that was sent to my website http://www.cocojams.com/taunting_rhymes.htm :

U-G-L-Y {Version #2}
U-G-L-Y
You aint got no alibi U ugly Yeah Yeah U ugly
M-A-M-A how did U get that way UR mama Yeah Yeah UR mama
D-A-D-D-Y U dont even kno the guy UR daddy Yeah Yeah UR daddy
-Cherry, 2/15/2006


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 30 May 06 - 07:47 AM

"Brickwall Waterfall" is another VERY popular rhyme that was also included in the 2003 American movie "Dickie Roberts; Former Child Star".

Though I have no proof, and though I'm not a betting person, if I were a betting person, I'd put alot of money on my opinion that "Brickwall Waterfall" came from some kids in the street and was then taken up by that movie's writers. But without any doubt, I'd also say that more kids are chanting the in-your-face-with-loads-of attitude rhyme "Brickwall Waterfall" because it was featured in that Dickie Roberts movie. I mentioned a bit of that rhyme in an earlier post on this thread, but here's a couple of examples of that rhyme that were sent to my website {linked above}:

Brick wall Water Fall {Example #3}
When ur talking to me all im thinking is , Brickwall water fall, (name) thinks they no it all, You don't so i say boom wid that attutude pinch punch captin crucnch i have something you can't touch bang,bang cho cho tran you wind me up i do my thing no reason piece of 7up mess wid me i'll mess u up.
this is for girls of any years that want to show off
-kenisha, 3/8/2006 {England}; Cocojams

-snip-

also see this version of that rhyme:

A-B-C Hit It! {and/ or Brickwall Waterfall}{Example #6}
it's called A-B-C Hit It! {and/ or Brickwall Waterfall}. It goes:
A-B-C Hit It! That's the way Uh-Uhh I like it Uh-Uhh.
That's the way Uh-Uhh I like it Uh-Uhh. Brickwall Waterfall
Girl you think you know it all. You don't. I do. So Poof with the Attitude. Peace Punch Captain Crunch. I got something you can't touch.
Bang Bang Cho Cho Train. Wind me up I'll do my thing.
Yummy Yummy 7Up Mess with me I'll beat you up. Wait, Come back.
I think you need a Tic Tac. Not 1 Not 1 Not 2 But the whole six-pack. I'm not trying to be mean but you need some Listerine. Not a sip not a swallow. But the whole dang bottle.

{PS. To the owner of this website usually the Brickwall rhymes are games you play with your hands. Thanks!!!}
-lauren snyder S.A T.X ro ; 5/7/2006- Cocojams

****

Enjoy!


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST,Spain
Date: 30 May 06 - 10:30 AM

I heard the "ugly" chant in Boston in various summer camps in the late 70s. I've always assumed its even older than that. There was also the street Rockin Robin that I heard/played in the same camps.

Tweedily diddly dee(3x)
tweet tweet, your breath stinks.

Rockin' in the treetop all day long
huffin' and a puffin' just singin' that song
all the little birdies on jail bird street
love to hear the birdies go tweet tweet tweet

Rockin' robin tweet tweet tweet
Rockin' robin tweet tweet tweet
All the little birdies on jail bird street tonight
tweet tweet tweet

Momma's in the kitchen, cookin' rice
Daddy's on the corner, shootin' dice
Brother's in jail, raisin' hell
Sister's on the corner selling fruit cock tail

Rockin' robin tweet tweet tweet
Rockin' robin tweet tweet tweet
All the little birdies on jail bird street tonight
tweet tweet tweet


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 30 May 06 - 01:58 PM

Hello, Guest Spain!!

Thanks for posting a date for that U-G-L-Y rhyme. I thought that it was recited by children before that Wildcat movie, and your information appears to confirm that.

Here's another verse to that "Tweedleelee" or "Rockin Robin" hand clap rhyme:

I went downtown to get a stick of butter
I saw James Brown poopin * in the gutter
He had a piece of glass
stuck up his butt **
I never saw a Black man run so fast

Rockin Robin
Tweet Tweeleelee
Rockin Robin
Tweet Tweeleelee

* also recited as "laying" in the gutter

** also recited as "ass";I'm told that some children selff-censor this word in front of adults and substitute the word "butt"; however I don't believe that is always the case; some children believe the real word is "butt" even though it doesn't rhyme

****

"Rockin Robin"/"Tweeleelee" {or a similar name}appears to be very widely known by children, youth, and adult [women probably more than men] from the mid or late 1970s on [the date corresponds to The Jackson's recording of Rockin Robin]. Besides for my [adopted] home area of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, the geographical attributions of the examples I've collected are Erie, PA; Cleveland, Ohio, Pittsburgh, New York City, Connecticut; West Virgina, Washington D.C., and Georgia. Except for a Latina woman in New York City, and a Filipino/White woman in West Virgina, all of the informants who gave me their racial/ethnicity information [or who I observed performing this rhyme] have been African American.

I'm interested in knowing if this rhyme is well known among
non-African American populations.


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 31 May 06 - 12:36 AM

It occurred to me that I don't think I've seen mention in any of these children's rhymes discussions (the ones I've read!) of this "elimination" rhyme that was popular in my neighbourhood in Windsor, Ontario, in the 1960's:

Engine, engine, number nine,
Going down Chicago line;
If the train goes off the track,
Do you want your money back?

"Yes" (or "No") -

Y-E-S spells yes
and you are not it!


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST,C
Date: 31 May 06 - 01:55 PM

My band-mate and I put this one to music, and we play it to the delight of most of the other girls our age, which is now mid-late 20s. It was really popular in the 80's, in the South anyway:

"Miss Susie had a steamboat
the steamboat had a bell
Miss Susie went to heaven
The steamboat went to...

Hello operator
please give me number nine
and if you disconnect me
I'll chop off your...

Behind the refrigerator
there was a piece of glass
Miss Susie sat upon it
and cut her little...

Ask me no more questions
I'll tell you no more lies
the boys are in the bathroom
zipping up their...

Flies are in the meadow
Bees are in the park
The boys and girls are kissing in the...

D-A-R-K-D-A-R-K-D-A-R-K DARK DARK DARK!"


My daughter taught me this one recently:

"Apples on a stick just make me sick

Make my heart go two-forty-six

Not because I'm dirty

Not because I'm clean

Not because I kissed a boy behind a magazine!"


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 02:16 PM

Az, the one that starts "Great big gobs of..." --the way I remember the next line is "Mutilated monkey meat..."
I heard this one said a few times when a kid(late '40s, early '50s), but it made me nauseous and never could bring myself to repeat it, so don't remember the whole thing.

This is one my kids started bringing home from public school in the mid '70s. It is a song--verses have an A section, and B section. It goes A, B, A, B, B. The school my kids attended was multi-racial--some white, some black, some Hispanic, a few Asian. Don't know which group originated it, but my guess as to time is 20thcent. as it refers to national brand names, billboards, sidewalks.

A)"As I was walking down the street a billboard caught my eye.
   The advertisements written there would make you laugh and
         cry.
   The signs were torn & tattered from a storm the night before--
   And as I gazed upon it, this is what I saw:"
B)"Smoke Coca-cola cigarettes. Chew Wrigley's spearmint beer.
   Ken-L Ration dog food makes your wife's complexion clear.
   Simoniz your baby with Hershey's candy bars.
   Crystal Drano makes the difference in all the movie stars!"
A)"When I recovered from my shock I went upon my way.
   I'd gone no farther than a block when there, to my dismay,
   Another billboard caught my eye & like the one before--
   The wind & rain had done its work and this is what I saw:"
B)"Take your next vacation in your brand new Frigidaire.
   Learn to play piano in your winter underwear.
   Chew chocolate-covered mothballs--they always satisfy.
   Brush your teeth with Lifebuoy Soap and watch the suds
       flow by."
B)"Doctors prove that babies shouldn't smoke 'til after 3.
   People over 35 take baths in Lipton Tea.
   You can make this country a better place today;
   Just buy a record of this song and THROW IT FAR AWAY!!!"
We all had this song down pat before my oldest turned 11, which makes it about 1977. The kids, of course, had it almost immediately. My husband and I had to keep asking for their help, but finally stopped needing that.      Tw


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 03:53 PM

Tannywheeler & others:

Since 1997 to date I've been doing formal presentations on children's rhymes and informal interactions with [mostly African American] children in [mostly] the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania area. As part of my presentation, I ask children what rhymes they know. Actually, I ask them what "songs" they know, because that seems to be the term that they use for handclapping and other 'street' rhymes.

In all of that time, no individual children nor any groups of children ever volunteered that they knew the "great big globs of mutiliated monkey meat etc." rhyme. Nor in that time period or before have I ever heard any child "sing" this rhyme [or for that matter, other what I call "gross out" rhymes". I'm wondering if this rhyme and other rhymes of that genre aren't as well known among African American children as they appear to be among European-American children.

And if that is so, could it be because these rhymes aren't usually performed with hand-clapping routines, or foot stomping movements, It seems to me that percussive handclap routines or foot stomping routines are a common feature of African American contemporary 'street' rhymes.

Any thoughts about this?

****

Tannywheeler:
Thanks for posting that "I was walking down the street" rhyme. This rhyme is new to me.

Do I understand you to say that the kids take turns saying either the A or B sections in a call & response like format? And is any handclapping or other movements done with this rhyme?

Best wishes,

Azizi


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 08:37 PM

great big gobbs of
greasy grimey gopher guts
mutilated monkey meat
little dirty birdy feet
fried eyeballs all
floating in a pool of blood
I forgot my spoon
but I brought a straw


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 11:49 PM

I am nice and you are pooh

What I just stepped in smells like you.


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 01:27 AM

Azizi - An observation about the gross stuff. I don't remember any of those types of songs from the schoolyard - however, they were very popular at summer camp. Don't know why the difference, but there was always a lot of singing at camp and not much chanting, but lots of chanting in the schoolyard (especially in the girls' games) and not much singing. Don't know how this jibes with other people's experience ...

I'm talking white kids here, but I have a hunch you might find the same things with black kids where you can find a bunch who go to summer camp.


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 07:54 AM

Thanks for that observation, thurg.

If that premise holds up, then maybe "class" {ie income} is a significant factor, since usually poorer kids have less opportunity to go to summer camps than kids whose families have more money.

It seems to me that most collectors gather the lyrics of children's rhymes and fail to document alot of other demographics that I think may be important. Often the only demographics that collectors sometimes note for their non-adult informants are nationality, age, and gender. I'm of the opinion that other variables should be documented as these demographics may influence which types of rhymes the children recite, the meaning of certain slang terms found in the rhymes, the inclusion of famous persons mentioned in the rhyme, and how [and why] the rhymes are performed the way they are or the way they were performed.

As an example of this premise, it's my opinion that 'being [mentally & emotionally] tough [also known as 'bening hard'] is an important coping mechanism and survival strategy among poor urban residents {without regard to race]. In African American urban poor communities, from a very early age some children are socialized to be tough and stoic. When something bad happens to them, children and adults are supposed to "suck it up" {meaning show no outward reaction, and keep whatever sadness or disappointment and especially any fear that they are feeling inside them}. A stern face, or mean face or smirk is greatly preferred to a sad or sacred face or een a hopeful demeanor. My interpretation of this is that if a person shows grief, or fear, or even hopefulness that would signal vulnerability that could be exploited by another person.

As a foster care caseworker, I have seen a birth mother start this toughing up regiment with her less than one year old son. During once a week two hour visits with her son, this 20 year old African American birth mother often talked to him about being tough. She "played" with her son by pretending to punch him {complete with 'pow' 'pow' 'pow'} sound effects}. And she chided him for being a 'punk' or a wimp if he started crying. This birth mother critized her son's foster mother for not raising her son to be tough enough. "Class" and/or differences in these women's backgrounds & lifestyles have much more influence than race in how the birth mother and the foster mother would parent this child. Both of these two women are Black. They happen to live less than 5 minutes apart by car in the same section {but not the same neighborhood} of the same city. The birth mother is a non-church going woman who was incarcerated as a young teen. She was raised in public housing developments, and lived in a public housing apartment until she was evicted for failure to pay her rent. The birth mother was on welfare until her child was removed from her. She now has no legal income. In contrast, the foster mother comes from a church going, tightly knit, working class family. She lives in a rental house, works ouside the home, and receives income for being a foster child. Because this particular child has engaged in more aggressive behavior toward his foster mother and other children in the home after his visits with his birth mother, the foster mother guessed that the child's birth mother is 'teaching him how to fight'.

What does this have to do with children's rhymes? Well, I think that this "be hard' value is found througout a large number of African American children's rhymes. As an example, at the end of the
"I Don't Want to go to Mexico" handclap rhyme, the two children {usually girls] doing the handclap routine try to be the first one to slap the other one on the forehead. The child who is slapped is supposed to laugh it off.

I don't think that was a part of the original "I Don't Want To Go To Macys". rhyme.

Maybe kids who have to been toughened up and who are concerned about day to day survivals don't have time to cross themselves or others' out with 'great big globs' types of rhymes. Or maybe it would be counter to their 'hard as nails' culture to show any response at all to these yucky rhymes.

And maybe it's just that the rhymes aren't percussive enough. I don't know. Maybe I'm far off base with these speculations.

And maybe I'm not.


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 08:19 AM

Among other errors in my last post-the foster mother receives income for being a foster parent.

And since I'm posting this correction, here's an example of
"I Don't Want To Go To Mexico"

Shame, Shame, Shame.
I don't want to go to Mexico
no more, more, more.
There's a big fat policeman
at door, door, door.
He'll grab you by the collar
and make you pay a dollar.
I don't want to go to Mexico
no more, more, more.
Shame. *

* on the word "shame" the two children doing the handclap try to be the first one to slap or poke the other child on her {or his} forehead.

[collected by Azizi Powell, 1998-2006; from observations of and interactions with African American girls and boys 6-12 years old, various Pittsburgh, PA neighborhoods & 1999 African American girls 9 and 11 years old, Philadelphia, PA]

"Shimmy Shimmy China" is another example of this hitting or slapping action occurring in a handclap routine.

Shimmy, Shimmy China,
I know karate.
Shimmy Shimmy China,
Oops! I'm so sorry. *
Shimmy Shimmy China
Sittin on a fence
trying to make a dollar
outa 85 cents
She missed
She missed
She missed like this, like this, like this.

* on the word "oops" the children performing this midly competitive handclap routine try to be the first one to poke or slap another child or her or his forehead; the children continue the rhyme as if no violent action had occurred

[collected in 1998 by Azizi Powell; Pittsburgh, PA; from Shep, 8 year old African American boy; and his sisters- 9 year old Shayla and 12 year old Shan]

Btw, on the last line the boy said "he missed". And as explantion for that last line-on the words "like this, like this, like this" the children execute a foot crossing jump. If on the last phrase, the left foot is crossed in front of the right foot instead of the other way, that person is out.


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 06:17 AM

Az, my memory is that my kids went around the house or yard, or sat in the back seat of the car, singing that song at the top of their lungs. No special movements that I remember. There were periodic giggles, tho'......Tw


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 07:25 AM

Thurg,

Humor me here, please. I'm not sure I understand you.

In your last post, are you referring to the "As I was walking down the street a billboard caught my eye" rhyme that you posted above?

And if so, how did your kids sing it? I got that there were no accompanying back & forth handclaps or no foot stomps. But did [does]one child sing the part "A" section and another child sing the part "B" section?

Color me curious,

Azizi


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 11:18 AM

Azizi - Um ... when you say "Thurg", do you mean "Tannywheeler"?


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 11:57 AM

Opps! Sorry, thurg & sorry tannywheeler.

Well, at least both your names start with a "t".

Excuses, excuses....

Umm, tannywheeler, I hope you'll respond to my question-not that it's earth shaking or anything.

you can color me both mixed up & curious,

Azizi


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST,Megan
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 09:55 PM

One with tarzan is like:

Tarzan tarzan sitting on a rubberband slipt and fel and booke his bones what color was his blood. Then someone picks a color.


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST,katsa
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 04:06 PM

My little sister is ten and they have a modified version of Take a peach rhyme:

they call me
eeny meeny
teeny weeny
ooh ah thumbalini
ah chi pachi liverini
i hate you

no peach
no plum
no stick of bubble gum
no peach
no plum
no stick of bubble gum

last night
i saw you with my boyfriend
how do i know
looked through the window
nosy
didnt take a shower
stinky
didn't do the dishes
lazy
jumped through the window
must be crazy

that's why they call me
eeny meeny
teeny weeny
ooh ah thumbalini
ah chi pachi liverini
i hate you


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 05:10 PM

Thanks, GUEST,katsa for posting that version of Take A Peach Take A Plum.

Please give my compliments to your sister for being creative in changing the words to that rhyme. I especially liked this line:
"didnt take a shower
stinky"

;o}

Best wishes,

Azizi


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST,Sheree
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 02:10 PM

I grew up in Indianapolis, In. and I'm looking for the origin of a rhyme or saying from my youth in the 70s:

If your Black, get back
If your Brown, stick around
If your White, you all right
If your Yellow, you mellow
If your red, you're dead

My Professor recited this rhyme in class, causing me to remember it. She is from Gary, In. It has since become a topic within a paper I'm writing. Have you received any other threads from other regions about this one? I'm trying to find out if it was commonly used in African American communities throughout the US. Thank you and I've truly enjoyed the rhyming flashback! Wishing you much success.....Sheree


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Forsh
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 02:38 PM

Albums are red, albums are blue, but if you go to Afri, albums are black.

Made you look made you stare, made you loose your underwear.

(INSERT CHILDS NAME)..sells fish, three ha'pence a dish, don't buy it! don't buy it! it stinks when you fry it!

Of course, the wonderful 'Rumbylowe' also recorded a montage of 'Skipping Rhymes' "Three queens of polio, polio, polio, three queens of polio, whoops yer auntie mary-oh, this is the way the teacher standsm she folds her arms then claps her hands, this is the way the teacher stands, whoops yer auntie mary-oh" etc.

I hope these are of use!


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Snuffy
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 03:10 PM

Forsh that last one sounds like an urban adaptation of OATS AND BEANS AND BARLEY


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 05:17 PM

Sheree, I am familiar with a version of the first rhyme you posted.

That rhyme provides commentary on race in America-both from the viewpoint of White America, and also with regards to inracial color preferences among African Americans.

Here's the version of that rhyme that I know:

If you're white you're alright
if you're brown stick around
if you're black get back.

Demographical information: recited & heard in Atlantic City, New Jersey {mid 1960s and possibly before that}, and in Pittsburgh, PA {late 1960s to date}.

Note that we didn't have the part about if you're yellow or if your red...

I remember reciting this rhyme as a young child, probably while jumping rope:
Yellow yellow kiss a fellow
Red red pee the bed
White white say goodnight.

-snip-

If the "Yellow yellow" rhyme had anything to do with race, I don't think the kids reciting it knew it. Personally, I'm not convinced that rhyme. In contrast, the "If you're White" rhyme was recited by Black teens and Black adults who had no doubts that that rhyme was about skin color preferances.

It's highly possible that the "If you're White" rhyme was probably part of folk culture for quite some time. But in 1951 Big Bill Broonzy recorded two versions of songs that included this rhyme.

Here's the lyrics to one of Big Bill Broonzy's songs:

BLACK, BROWN, AND WHITE(Version 1)
by Big Bill Broonzy
recording of September 20 1951, Paris

This little song that I'm singin' about,
people you know it's true
If you're black and gotta work for a living,
this is what they will say to you,
they says, "If you was white, should be all right,
if you was brown, stick around,
but as you's black, hmm brother, get back, get back, get back"

I was in a place one night
They was all having fun
They was all buyin' beer and wine,
but they would not sell me none
They said, "If you was white, should be all right,
if you was brown, stick around,
but if you black, hmm brother, get back, get back, get back"

Me and a man was workin' side by side
This is what it meant
They was paying him a dollar an hour,
and they was paying me fifty cent
They said, "If you was white, 't should be all right,
if you was brown, could stick around,
but as you black, hmm boy, get back, get back, get back"

I went to an employment office,
got a number 'n' I got in line
They called everybody's number,
but they never did call mine
They said, "If you was white, should be all right,
if you was brown, could stick around,
but as you black, hmm brother, get back, get back, get back"

I hope when sweet victory,
with my plough and hoe
Now I want you to tell me brother,
what you gonna do about the old Jim Crow?
Now if you was white, should be all right,
if you was brown, could stick around,
but if you black, whoa brother, get back, get back, get back

-snip-

see http://blueslyrics.tripod.com/artistswithsongs/big_bill_broonzy_1.htm#black_brown_and_white_version%201 for lyrics to more Bill Bill Broonzy songs including version #2 of this song.


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 05:36 PM

Sorry. I meant to write
Personally, I'm not convinced that rhyme "Yellow yellow" had anything to do with skin color.

****

Forsh, I'm curious about you reference to "Rumbylowe". I tried to find more about this group by Google, but didn't get very much. However, I did find a small blurp [but no examples]about about skipping rhymes that are found in Rumbylowe's album, 'Jolly Rumbylowe'.

Is this an Australian group? Who sings these songs-adults or kids?

I assume that "skipping rhymes" as mentioned in this blurp may be the same or similar to what Americans {UnitedStaters} call "jumprope rhymes". And, since jump rope rhymes is a generic term in the United States that includes "handclap rhymes" and rhymes that accompany other movements done by children while they chant rhyming verses, maybe that's the same as the Australian [?] skipping rhymes that are featured in that Rumbylowe album.

It would be great to learn more about this.


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Snuffy
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 06:26 PM

Spot on there Ms Azizi. In parts of the map that used to be coloured red (pink actually), we have "skipping ropes" rather than "jumpropes". Maybe because skipping implies only one foot at a time touches the ground, whereas jumping implies both feet?

But anyway, skipping rhymes would include other rhymes and chants used by children for playing tick, or selecting a team or a sweetheart, and all the other things kids do.


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 08:10 PM

Snuffy, what's playing tick?

And could you or anyone else post examples of children's rhymes for choosing a sweetheart?

I can think of rhymes where a girl mentions the name of the boy she likes, but I'm drawing a blank on choosing sweetheart rhymes.


Thanks.


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Joe_F
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 10:04 PM

What's your name?
Puddin' tane.
Ask me again, and I'll tell you the same.

*

Old Mr Kelly
Had a pimple on his belly.
His wife cut it off,
And it tasted like jelly.


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: NH Dave
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 10:32 PM

A friend of mine, Scott E. Hastings, Jr., collected a bunch of school yard and counting out rhymes from northeastern Vermont, and published them in a book named, Miss Mary Mack all Dressed in Black, which is available on Amazon.com, for a few dollars or the equivalent. Scott's long gone now, but the book still live on.

Dave


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Snuffy
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 08:26 AM

I think you probably call it "tag" where we call it tick.

By Sweetheart rhymes, I mean where you have to choose someone so the game can carry on, not the "ippy-dippy O-U-T spells OUT" elimination chants. Things like The Farmer's in the Dell where the farmer picks a wife, then the wife picks a child, the child picks a dog, the dog picks a bone, then we all pat the bone. Or the bit in We are three Dukes/Jews where it goes:

Come back, come back your coat is green
And choose the fairest one you've seen.

The fairest one that I can see
Is [insert name of child], come out to me


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 08:42 PM

Thanks, Snuffy.

FWIW, the only rhymes that you referred to in your last post that I'm familiar with is "The Farmer In The Dell". But that's just from reading it. Besides at the teacher's lead in kindergarten {public school ages 4 and 5 years}, I don't think kids play that game any more.

As a matter of fact, I've rarely seen children initiate children seldom initiate circle singing or chanting games except for elimination handclap rhymes like Slap Billy-ola {Stella Ola Ola} .

I've seen mostly girls but also sometimes boys & girls {ages about 6 years old to 13 years old} playing this game. Perhaps it's the competition that makes it attractive to them.


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 08:49 PM

Yes, I know. "Preview" should be my friend.

Here's an old West African proverb:
"To stumble is not to fall, but to go forward faster".

What does that proverb have to do with my mistakes in the last post? Besides my rushing to submit that post, probably not much. But Isaw an opportunity to share that proverb, and so I took it.

Borrowing from Snuffy's post, "Ippy-dippy I'm O-U-T" of here.

Right.

Left.

Right.

Now.

:O)


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Snuffy
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 08:50 AM

9 variants of THREE DUKES in the Digital Tradition. And this one my mother taught me:

3431 THREE DUKES (2)
X: 67
T:Three Dukes (2)
M:6/4
L:1/8
Q:150
S:my mother
P:A5B2
A:Tyneside
N:filename[ THREDUK2
K:G
P:A
D2|
G2A2 B4- B2G2 |c2B2 A4- A2D2|
F2G2 A4- A2(GA)|B2A2 G4- G2 ||
P:B
M:6/8
D|
G2G G2B|d2B G2G|A2A A2G|F2E D2D|
G2G G2B|d2B G2G|A2A DEF|G3 G2 ||

We are three Jews, we come from Spain,
To court upon your daughter Jane.

Our daughter Jane is far too young
To understand your noisy tongue.

SPOKEN:
Go away, Corkscrew.

Our name, our name is not Corkscrew,
We'll stamp our foot, and away we'll go.

Come back, come back, your coat is green,
And choose the fairest one you see.

The fairest one that I can see
Is [name here]. Come out to me.

SPOKEN:
I will not come.

The naughty girl, she won't come out,
She won't come out, she won't come out;
The naughty girl, she won't come out,
To join us in the dancing.

SPOKEN:
I will come.

Now we've got the lady out,
The lady out, the lady out,
Now we've got the lady out,
To join us in the dancing.


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 06:07 PM

I got a kick out of the following rhyme that was sent to my website today:

your mama your mama my daddy your bald headed granny she 99 she think she fine she break it down like frankinstin. go frankie go frankie go, go, go frankie, go frankie go frankie go, go, go frankie. my mama my mama short and fine she got a butt like mine and when she walk the street all cars go beep,beep beep and when she go down low she does a rollie o and when she com up high she does the butterfly. stop. drop. bring it to the top pop pop shake skahe vibrate vibrate
-erika

-snip-
I love the nickname "frankie" for "frankinstin". "The butterfly" is the name of a R&B dance circa mid 1990s.

The phrase "stop drop" is probably lifted from the chorus of the 2002 hit by DMX called "Ruff Riders Athem [note: imo, that rap song includes some decidedly politically un-correct language such as the n-word-although the hip-hop spelling for that word is used].

I remember when most children from kindergarten on up in the elementary school my daughter taught at {and where I did after-school programming} sang this catchy chorus to that song:

"Stop drop shut 'em down open up shop
Oh no that's how Ruff Ryders roll
Stop drop shut 'em down open up shop
Oh no that's how Ruff Ryders roll"

-snip-

What does it mean? You askin me?

I bet most of the kids don't know either, but "That's how I roll" means that's how I move about or that's what I do; that's how I am...

Please help me out here if you can add to or correct this definition.

Thanks in advance.


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 06:09 PM

Here's some somewhat random thoughts about the example from in my last post:

Note how the rhyme is written in essay form with no capitalization at the beginning of a sentence {or new line of the rhyme}and usually no punctuation at the end of a sentence {or line}. This style of writing is becoming the norm for children & youth {if not others} on informal blogs and message boards. It may also used for cell phone text messages.

My sense is one reason why this style is used is because it is the style. Kids mimic what they see other kids doing. But I think that this style started because on the Internet punctuation, grammar, and correct spelling aren't considered nearly as important as getting your message out there as fast as you can and then moving on to the next thing. It's faster to write in run on sentences than it is to write in the lined poetry style that we older people were taught to use.

At any rate, it appears to me that run on sentences writing style is the signature form of informal writing for folks under 20 years old {and maybe younger than that}. Needless to say that the problem with this writing style is that you have to determine where one sentence {or line}ends and another one begins. You can do this if you remember that these formulaic rhymes adhere to a 4 line pattern with the rhyme {or near rhyme}occuring in the last word of the 2nd and 4th line. But still I think that this way of writing can result in some interpretation difficulties. For instance, erika sent in a number of rhymes that she said were her 'fav' {I'm 99.9% sure she means "favorites". However, I had to guestimate where one rhyme ended and the next one began. The more I think about it, the example in the last post was probably two separate rhymes {the first one ending where the period is after the word "frankie".

I'm going to email erika in hopes that she will verify my guess about this example. I'm also going to ask her if these two? rhymes are recited back to back {ie. do they flow into each other?}.
If I "hear" from erika, I'll let you know what she "said".


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST,Tom
Date: 07 Nov 06 - 10:07 AM

Lemonade made in the shade and sold by Barnum Bailey.
A piece of ice in every glass as big as an elephant's
Ask your mother for 50 cents to see the monkeys sticking sticks up the elephant's
Hold on ladies! For those of you who can't swim the elephants are about to
Peanuts! 5 cents a bag!!

My grandfather (born 1922) used to quote this at the supper table after dinner. He was born, lived , and died in Berwyn, PA.


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 01:17 AM

Has anyone heard:

Ally ally, chikoli chikoli,
Oollay oollay um pum pum
Chinese whispers, polly-wally whiskers
Do me a favour...drop dead!

OR:

Shirley Temple is a star S-T-A-R
First she does a cartwheel, then she does the splits
Then she does a (something,something??) just like this..(dance)


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Subject: RE: Was-I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhyme
From: GUEST,SteveR
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 09:34 AM

Excuse me for jumping in...I dont know how else to get Toms attention.

Hi Tom.
I read your post about your Smallman steel string and I had to say, I've got the other one! I bought it in Sydney in 1979. I nearly bought your one, it was so hard to choose between them, but decided on the 14 fret instead. Its the most amazing guitar Ive ever played. Id love to exchange a pic or chat if you're interested.
Steve
thatsteve@hotmail.com


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 04:54 PM

your fat im large.
bah


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 11:36 AM

We used to go around the playground with our arms linked and singing, "Girls go to Mars to get more candybars, boys go to Jupiter to get more stupider"

And we also would say, "anybody in the way gets a five cent kick and a ten cent Boom!" and we would kick out our legs on "kick" and bring up our knee on "boom". It sounds so awful now!!!

Waterville, Maine, 1970's


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST,rachel
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 04:33 AM

brickwall, waterfall
_____ thinks she/he has it all but you dont and i do
so BOOM with that attitude
shark attack, shark attack you need a tic-tac! not one, not two but the whole dam pack!
bang bang choo choo train i got somethin you aint got so you mess with me and ill mess you up!


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST,Kat
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 07:50 PM

This is what we used to say to people with bad breath:
Poof, begone your breath is to strong,
wait come back I found a tic-tac,
not one, not two, but the whole damn pack
sorry to be mean but ya need some listerine,
not a cup, not a swallow, but the whole damn bottle.


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST,Kat
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 08:00 PM

I just thought of some that we used to use when we chose who was "It"
Train, Train number nine
goin' down Chicago line
if the train falls off it's track,
do you want your money back
(they say yes, or no)
Y-E-S and that spells yes
and you are not it

this is a hand clap game.
miss mary mack mack mack
all dressed in black black black
with silver buttons, buttons, buttons
all down her back, back, back
she asked her mother, mother mother
for fifty cents cents cents
to see the elephant, elephants elephants
jump over the fence, fence, fence
they jumped so high, high high
they touched the sky sky sky
they never came back back back
'til the fourth of july, ly, ly

here's another one:
miss susie had a steam boat, the steam boat had a bell
ding ding, miss susie went to heaven and the steamboat went to hell...o operator please give me number nine and if you disconnect me I will chop off your behind the fridgerator ther was a piece of glass miss susie sat upon it and it went up right her ass..k me no more questions tell me no more lies the boys are in the bathroom zipping up their flies are in the park the bees are in the meadow and the boys and girls are kissing in the D-A-R-K D-A-R-K DARK! DARK! DARK!..... I know I know my ma I know I know my pa, but I do not know my sister with a forty acre bra


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST,lauretc4
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 05:31 PM

Here comes the broom
Sweeping up the room


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: DebbieOlsen
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 05:55 PM

Wow. I just joined and read this thread for the first time. Fantastic stuff--I've actually been thinking about these things lately as I raise my own children--I've been teaching them elimination rhymes from my childhood (near Boston, 1970s).

We would always start with "One Potato" by saying, "Put your potatoes in!" (The person counting would use his chin for his second potato.) This rhyme has already been submitted (one potato, two potato, three potato, four; five potato, six potato, seven potato, more.) Then we'd move on to the "Engine, engine" and "My mother and your mother" that are above. We also did, "Bubblegum, bubblegum, in a dish; how many pieces do you wish?" The person would choose a number (say it was 3) and you would say, "One, two, three and you are out."

Does anyone remember this one? It had some pretty elaborate hand motions--the same one as that McDonalds commercial ("Big Mac, filet-o-fish, quarter pounder, french fries, icey Coke, thick shake, sundae and aplle pie")

Oh jolly playmate, come out and play with me
And bring your dollies three;
Climb up my apple tree.
Slide down my rainbow into my cellar door,
And we'll be jolly friends forever more.

Oh jolly playmate, I cannot play with you.
My dollies have the flu;
They threw up in my shoe.
I have no rainbow; I have no cellar door,
But we'll be jolly friends forever more.

(This one we weren't supposed to sing, but did anyway)
Oh rotten enemy, come out and fight with me,
And bring your soldiers three,
Climb up my poison tree.
Slide down my razor into my dungeon door
And we'll be rotten enemies forever more.

Oh rotten enemy, I cannot play with you;
My soldiers have the flu--
They threw up in my shoe.
I have no razor; I have no dungeon door,
But we'll be rotten enemies forever more.

Now, the one I can't remeber much of but would really love to find someone who remebers started,

The spades go two lips together
Tie them forever
Bring back my love to me.
What is the meaning of this?
For all the fellows I've kissed
They tell the story
the story of l-o-v-e.

And nobody has mentioned
--- and ---, sitting in a tree,
k-i-s-s-i-n-g.
First comes love, then comes marriage, then comes (the boy) with a baby carriage.
Sucking his thumb, wetting his pants and doing the hula hula dance.

My 8 year old adds,
"That's not all, that's not all, I saw the baby peeing in the hall,
wearing a tutu and drinking alcohol."

By the way, after "I'm rubber, you're glue," we always added "Boarded, boarded, rainbow magic" as fast as we could so the other person couldn't say, "Except the good stuff!" It started out as black magic, but that scared my little sister so we had to change it. And I never heard "Eeny meeny miney mo" with a nigger instead of a tiger until I moved to Iowa--I always thought it was a tiger.

Debbie Olsen


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 07:27 PM

Greetings, Debbie Olsen!

Welcome to Mudcat.

I'm interested in a several of the rhymes that you posted, but would like to concentrate on the one which starts with the line "the spades go."

I found a couple of examples of 'The Spades Go" [for want of a better name] on this website: http://streetplay.com/discus/ Girl's games; Clap and Rhyme section

Here's one example:

"The spades the spades the spades go iny miny popsa kiney i love bomaragn a hop a scoth a liver roch a peach a plum i have a stick of chewing gum and if u want the other half this is wut you say: amen amen amendiego sandieago bostn bruins rah rah rah boo boo boo criss cross apple sauce do me a favor get lost while ur at it drop dead either that or lose ur head bang on trash cans bang on tin cans i can u can nobody else can sitting on the bench nuthing to do along comes some one..cohey coochey coo! andu tickle the other person"
-Sally on Friday, May 6, 2005

-snip-

And here's a comment that I posted on that website on Sunday, February 26, 2006 :

"And btw, with regard to another rhyme printed earlier on this site [and seen elsewhere], in my opinion, regarding the introductory phrase "The spades the spades the spades go", "the spades" means "the Black people".

I don't think it's meant to be offensive. Nor would it be taken that way because if it is recited nowadays, few people would "get" the original meaning."
-snip-

I believe that referent is from the spades suit in the game of cards and/or from the familiar [at least in my experience] saying "Black as the ace of spades". In my opinion, "the spades go" initially alluded to the source for the rhyme [ie. Black children] and serves as an introductionary statement that this is the way the rhyme was performed by those children. However, to continue my theory, as a result of the folk process, that meaning of that line was lost.

**
Debby, your version of that rhyme says "Thee spades go two lips together". Check out these two examples that I found from the Archive through June 8, 2000 of the Girl's games; Clap and Rhyme section of that streetplay website:

"One I remember is:
Tulips together twilight in heaven bring back my love to me. It was probably 2 lips - but I was an
innocent kid back then."
-Allison on Monday, April 12, 1999 - 06:31 pm

**

"Allison:

I remember that ... didn't it start ...

The spades go tulips together
twlight in heaven
bring back my love to me?

Or something like that?

Two girls would hold hands, arms outstretched in front, and sway back and forth while singing the verses... :)

There was another one with this line~

shimmy shimmy
coco pop
shimmy shimmy pop

Any memory jogs here?? :) "
-Butirfli@aol... on Tuesday, April 13, 1999

-snip-

I'm curious as to which was the original phrase "two lips" or tulips"? I guess we may never know, but either way what a wonderful example of folk etymology.

**

And remember that in that streetplay post given by Butirfli@aol, she wrote "There was another one with this line" [I am assuming this refered to the spades said tulips" line], Butifli@aol then wrote lines from the Shimmy Shimmy Coco Pop rhyme?

Well, here's an example of a USA children's handclap rhyme that starts with the words "the blacks go":

SHIMMY SHIMMY COKE CA POP
The Blacks go down down baby
Down by the roller coaster
Sweet sweet baby
I don't wanna let you go

Shimmy shimmy shimmy shimmy
shimmy shimmy-pop!
Shimmy shimmy shimmy shimmy
shimmy shimmy coke-ca-pop!

[Source: John Langstaff, Carol Langstaff "Shimmy Shimmy Coke-Ca-Pop!, A Collection of City Children's Street Games & Rhymes {Garden City, New York, Double Day & Co; p. 76; 1973}

-snip-

In my opinion, this rhyme and Butirfli@aol's comments lend credence to my theory about the meaning of the phrase "the spades go".


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 07:31 PM

Also, check out the very close similarities between the rhyme given by Sally on Friday, May 6, 2005 streetplay.com and this one:

"star spangle...
itsy bitsy teeny witsy ew oh to0-ba-leeny outsy whatsy sellahawts say the magic words.. i have a stick of chewing gum and if you want the other half.. this is what you say.. amen. amen. amen-deyago sedeyago hookes pookes sallamoskes sis.. sis .. sis coom ba.. everybody eerybody RA-RA-RA.. BOO-BOO-BOO.. sitting on a trash can banging on a tin can i can you can nobody else can sitting on a bench.. nothnig to do.. along comes a little baby goochy gochy goo..

i learned this as when i was litte.
-posted by brrittannee at March 25, 2005; http://blog.oftheoctopuses.com/000518.php


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Mo the caller
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:24 AM

I'm interested that you don't find 'spades' offensive Azizi. Nobody uses it in the UK except the sort of people who say 'wogs' and 'nigger'.


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 08:44 AM

Hello, Mo.

In this recent Mudcat thread, Religious Trains & Chariot Songs I wrote that I flinched when I [unexpectedly] came upon the n-word. What made me flinch was my knowledge of that word's use as a derogatory individual & group referent for Black people. However, I recognized that that the person who posted that example of a spiritual that included the 'n word' did so because he believes in the importance of presenting these songs with the words that were written down and/or recorded when they were first collected. Given that context, after I acknowledged my reaction to the n-word [in that example],I moved on to the topic at hand.

In my opinion, context is highly important. Even if a person's motivation is historical research and analysis, I would take great exception to spirituals and other songs being publicly sung without a substitution of another word for the 'n-word'. See my comment on 29 Dec 06 - 02:19 PM about the continuing use of 'Black slave dialect in performances of spirituals' in that same Mudcat thread. And yes, the inclusion of the n-word is one of the reasons why I don't like many hip-hop songs.uch a song-or any song including hip-hop songs.

That said, my energy would be spent up if I flinched everytime I read the 'n word' on certain Mudcat threads. I supposed I had that visceral reaction that time because -even though that particular thread included quite a number of spirituals-I hadn't prepared myself to read that word. If I see that a thread is about minstrel songs or spirituals, I know that I will probably read dialectic examples, and so it is my choice to either avoid those threads or prepare myself psychologically to read the n-word and those long retired [if they were ever totally real] Black dialectic phrasings. I believe that I have stated my aversion to the 'n-word' enough times on this discussion forum that my aversion is known. But I felt the need on that Train/Chariot thread to say that my reaction is more than mental-it is physical & emotional.

The word 'spades' doesn't have even half the same negative reaction for me as the 'n word'. I believe that this is because I have so little experience with the word 'spades' being used as a referent for Black people. I barely recall its use [among Black people toward other Black people] in the 1960s and 1970s]. And I personally have no knowledge of 'Spades' being used as a referent for Black people nowadays.

See this entry from Urban Dictionary [warning-that page includes some profanity]:
"spade: A derogatory term for an African American, more commonly used in the post-Civil War era than today"

However, given your post, Mo, I gather that "spades" is currently used more often as a negative referent for Black people in the United Kingdom than in the USA. Is this what you are saying?

Having said this, I felt that I should include a message on that streetplay website and on this thread as a 'FYI" cautionary note to those who recite "The Spades go" rhyme-or teach this rhyme to children-that some people [I was thinking of Black people, but I can also understand how some non-Black people] might take exception to this referent and see it as being offensive, even if no offense was intended.

You will also note that in that same post on this thread that mentions 'the spades go two lips together', the poster mentions the '"Eeny meeny miney moe" rhyme and its' use of the 'n word' instead of the word 'tiger'. I decided to ignore that word and focus on what I considered to be a more worthwhile use of my energy & time-the presentation & analysis of examples of children's rhymes that are similar to 'The Spades Go' and had other similar lines.

Also, let me say this-because I'm a 'product' of the "Say It Loud, I'm Black And I'm Proud" movement, if [because] the word 'spades' as used for Black people refers to our dark skin color-then if I disliked that term, I would also be saying that I dislike black skin color. You see what I'm getting at?

Perhaps if I were a Black Briton who heard or read the term 'Spades' being used as a subsitute for the 'n-word', that word spades would be as loaded a term as the N-word is to me. Thankfully, I haven't had that experience.

Btw, Mo, I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to think out load about the differences in my approach to these two words.

Happy New Year,

Azizi


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Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 08:54 AM

I acknowledge and apology for my poor cut & paste job in my last post.

And, Mo I gather from re-reading your post more carefully that you are saying that in the UK spades is used as a negative referent for Black people by certain people-the same people who use the other offensive referents that you cited. I see that your statement doesn't speak to the frequency of its use. I'm not sure how often the term 'spades' is used in the UK, and whether Black people and/or non-Black people there have a visceral reaction to that word when it is used as an individual or group referent. What I'm saying is that "spades" as a referent for Black people isn't very common in the USA, and thus does not have nearly as much built-in historical and present day negative connotations as the 'n-word' which is still being used in the USA and elsewhere.


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