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happy? - May 30

Abby Sale 30 May 05 - 11:11 AM
GUEST,Allen 30 May 05 - 06:13 PM
GUEST,Wolfgang 31 May 05 - 07:35 AM
Abby Sale 31 May 05 - 04:29 PM
GUEST,Allen 31 May 05 - 04:38 PM
Blackcatter 31 May 05 - 05:14 PM
Abby Sale 31 May 05 - 08:01 PM
Abby Sale 31 May 05 - 09:37 PM
GUEST,Allen 01 Jun 05 - 03:00 AM
manitas_at_work 01 Jun 05 - 08:11 AM
GUEST,Allen 01 Jun 05 - 04:32 PM
Manitas_at_home 01 Jun 05 - 05:50 PM
GUEST,Allens 01 Jun 05 - 06:23 PM
Manitas_at_home 02 Jun 05 - 02:01 AM
GUEST,Allen 02 Jun 05 - 06:22 AM
manitas_at_work 02 Jun 05 - 08:41 AM
GUEST,Allen 02 Jun 05 - 09:13 AM
manitas_at_work 02 Jun 05 - 10:27 AM
GUEST,Allen 02 Jun 05 - 10:34 AM
Manitas_at_home 03 Jun 05 - 02:11 AM
GUEST,Allen 03 Jun 05 - 02:25 AM
manitas_at_work 03 Jun 05 - 04:19 AM
Wolfgang 03 Jun 05 - 11:10 AM
Manitas_at_home 04 Jun 05 - 01:56 AM
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Subject: happy? - May 30
From: Abby Sale
Date: 30 May 05 - 11:11 AM

In 2005 Memorial Day, the last Monday in May, falls on the 30th:

Sadly, there are many songs we might sing:

"Ford o' Kabul River" – Kabul town's by Kabul river--
R. Kipling, Barrack-Room Ballads tune: Peter Bellamy. 46 officers & men of the 10th Hussars drowned in a night crossing of the Kabul River 3/31/1879. The wars demonstrated the ease of overrunning Afghanistan and the difficulty of holding it.

"And the Band Played 'Waltzing Matilda'" - When I was a young man, I carried me gun;
Eric Bogle

"Hanging from the Old Barbed Wire" – If you want to find the General;
It appears that the song was sung in the trenches early in World War I. Perhaps with reference to the Battle of the Somme

"Johnny I Hardly Knew Ye" – While goin' the road to sweet Athy, hurroo, hurroo;
Commonly thought to deal with fighting in Ceylon (now Sri Lanka) in the British occupation, 1796–1948.

"Stand to Your Glasses"
        So stand to your glasses, steady
        Let not a tear fill your eye
        Here's to the dead already,
        And hear's to the next man to die.

WWI version, adapted from Bartholomew Dowling, 1823–1863

Copyright © 2005, Abby Sale - all rights reserved
What are Happy's all about? See Clicky


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Subject: RE: happy? - May 30
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 30 May 05 - 06:13 PM

You could add Farewell to Lochaber, Bonny Lighthorseman, the Wars O' Germany, Johnny Has Gone for a Soldier, Floo'ers O' the Forest, Gethsemane (Kipling and bellamy again) and much besides.

BTW never heard the bit about Johnny and fighting in Sri Lanka, in fact there wasn't that much of it.


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Subject: RE: happy? - May 30
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 31 May 05 - 07:35 AM

Is there a historical reason for memorial day being on this particular day?

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: happy? - May 30
From: Abby Sale
Date: 31 May 05 - 04:29 PM

I don't know. Here's the Encyclopaedia Britannica (a US book) entry:

...also called Decoration Day, public legal holiday in the United States and its territories and among its armed forces, honouring U.S. citizens who have died in war. Originally commemorating soldiers killed in the American Civil War, the observance was later extended to all U.S. war dead. Most states conform to the federal practice of observing the holiday on the last Monday in May, which began in 1971, but a few retain the long-established day of celebration, May 30. National observance is marked officially bythe placing of a wreath on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Arlington National Cemetery in Virginia.

The custom itself of honouring the graves of the war dead began before the close of the Civil War. In the South, the town of Columbus, Miss., claims origination of a formal observance for both the Union and the Confederate dead in 1866. Waterloo, N.Y., is cited as the birthplace of the observance in the North in the same year. There was no fixed day of national celebration, however, until 1868, when Commander in Chief John A. Logan of the Grand Army of the Republic issued a general order designating May 30,1868, "for the purpose of strewing with flowers or otherwise decorating the graves of comrades who died in defense of their country during the late rebellion."

In addition to the national holiday, Confederate memorial days continue to be celebrated in some Southern states. Similar commemorations are observed in numerous other countries.


(Virginia, eg, has Confederate Mem Day the same day.)


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Subject: RE: happy? - May 30
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 31 May 05 - 04:38 PM

Abby, where did you hear that about Ceylon?


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Subject: RE: happy? - May 30
From: Blackcatter
Date: 31 May 05 - 05:14 PM

The Encyclopedia is essentially correct.

Commander in Chief John A. Logan's general order is possibly tied to a French remembrance day called "The Day of Ashes" which commemorated Napoleon's ashes being returned to France. Supposedly, one of the originators of Memorial Day was French and made this connection.

The 1971 enactment of the national holiday is derrived from the 1868 general order.

Abby - have any info on the "Day of Ashes?"


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Subject: RE: happy? - May 30
From: Abby Sale
Date: 31 May 05 - 08:01 PM

GUEST,Allen,

You mean Ceylon's use in "Johnny I Hardly Knew You?" I believe it's controversial. Far as I know, the sole (but pretty good) reason for the assumption he was off visiting there is the line in the song:

I'm happy for to see ye home,
All from the island of Sulloon
(Spelling varies)

I have a vague memory protesting that the Irish didn't fight there. But, as said, it's generally assumed to be Ceylon.
===================================

Blackcatter,

No particular knowledge. Google gives the following words at several sites but no attribution:

A woman of French extraction and leader of the Virginia women's movement, Cassandra Oliver Moncure, took responsibility of coordinating the activities of several groups into a combined ceremony on May 30. It is said that she picked that day because it corresponded to the Day of Ashes in France, a solemn day that commemorates the return of the remains of Napoleon Bonaparte to France from St. Helena.

Nappy died 5/5/1821. (For British readers, that would be 5/5/1821, of course.)

FWIW, I find, On 8 October 1840, La Belle-Poule arrived at St. Helena and one week later, on 15 October, the commission dug up the emperor's coffin. The prince opens it and discovers that the body has been perfectly preserved. Napoleon is wearing the uniform of the Chasseurs de la Garde. at stuff Source given is Guide Michelin, Paris et sa banlieue, Paris, 1976


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Subject: RE: happy? - May 30
From: Abby Sale
Date: 31 May 05 - 09:37 PM

Wolfgang,

I trust that since November 2000 (Jutland) you are well-aware how to pronounce 'Jutland.' I can't now think of any word in modern English in which J uses a Y sound. Always the hard J as in Just.


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Subject: RE: happy? - May 30
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 03:00 AM

If it is Ceylon, all it means is service in the Empire.


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Subject: RE: happy? - May 30
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 08:11 AM

How about 'fjord'?


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Subject: RE: happy? - May 30
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 04:32 PM

That, strictly speaking, is not an English word.


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Subject: RE: happy? - May 30
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 05:50 PM

It's in Webster's Universal, Longman's Family, the Penguin Pocket and the Little Oxford. Just because it was adopted into English doesn't make it any less valid as an English word. How about Jungian, junta or jojoba?


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Subject: RE: happy? - May 30
From: GUEST,Allens
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 06:23 PM

These are all exceptions. I do believe the question was about proper English not loan words.
Besides Junta is kh not yu.


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Subject: RE: happy? - May 30
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 02:01 AM

If it's in the dictionary it's "proper" English unless it's qualified as slang or archaic. Many English words are loan words.

I think I'll believe the lexicographers.


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Subject: RE: happy? - May 30
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 06:22 AM

Loan words are considered exceptions. They are not a natural occurence in English. By proper English I ment non loan words.


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Subject: RE: happy? - May 30
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 08:41 AM

Of course loan words are a natural occurrence in English! Try speaking English without any Hindi, Arabic,Turkish, Persian, German, Spanish, French etc etc words and see the huge gaps. Try to avoid any words derived from Old French, Old Norse, Latin or Greek and see how far you get.

The very strength of English is it's ability to absorb words from other languages.


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Subject: RE: happy? - May 30
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 09:13 AM

Missing the point. of course there are thousands of loan words, but it is not a natural process linguistically.


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Subject: RE: happy? - May 30
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 10:27 AM

You mean someone sat down and said let's borrow words from other languages to describe concepts we don't have yet and that nobody had ever done it up to that point? Yes, right! It's as natural to borrow words as it is to borrow the ideas they describe like fire, wheel, pottery etc.


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Subject: RE: happy? - May 30
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 10:34 AM

J as Y does not occur outside of loan words, and then not very often. The natural proccess is just what would happen if there were no loan words. A loan word, no matter how numerous they are, is an EXCEPTION.


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Subject: RE: happy? - May 30
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 02:11 AM

Loan words are not exceptions and no amount of shouting will make them so. They are a natural part of a languages growth and development. Without them we would still be speaking some proto- Indo-European language. Without them our poetry and prose would be very limited. Without them we would not even be able to discuss many concepts as we would not have the vocabulary. And even if they were exceptions they would still be part of the language.


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Subject: RE: happy? - May 30
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 02:25 AM

That is not what I was saying. Linguistically speaking, loan words are considered exceptions. That is all. I was not arguing whether they were good or bad, many or few, not part of the language or whatever.


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Subject: RE: happy? - May 30
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 04:19 AM

Well, yes you were implying they were not part of the language. When I suggested 'fjord' you said it wasn't an English word. Then you said my other examples were exceptions because they were loan words.

They're either part of the language or they are not, the opinion of the professional lexicographers is that they are.


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Subject: RE: happy? - May 30
From: Wolfgang
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 11:10 AM

If I tell you now that Abby's post directed to me mentioning Jutland was intended for the Happy? - May 31 thread and only by mistake ended here will you then continue the discussion on the other thread?

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: happy? - May 30
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 01:56 AM

Certainly, I'll just move over...


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