Fiddle questions

Subject: Fiddle questions
From: GUEST,Sleepless Dad
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 01:40 PM

I was listening to some fiddle music the other night and I started wondering : How many strings can a good fiddler bow at the same time ? I know that the neck has a curve to it - so can you bow all four strings at the same time ? In the piece I was listening to it sounded like three strings were being played at once so I couldn't tell if it was multi-tracked. Does it take a lot of strength in the wrist to bow all four strings ?

And the bow - I assume that only horse hair is used to make bows correct ? In other words - in the song "Wind and Rain" when they say "He made a bow of her fine yellow hair" - thats not possible correct ?

One more - if the fiddle is extended in front of you how can you see properly to tell where you should place your fingers in order to be spot on tune ? Guess a lot ? At least on the mandolin you can see the fretboard when you play.

Thanks

Subject: RE: Fiddle questions
From: GUEST,jeffp
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 02:08 PM

I'm only a novice fiddler, but I'll take a stab at your questions.

Normally, no more than 2 strings can be bowed at once. I have heard of fiddlers who use a slack bow that sort of wraps around and can play 3 or 4 strings, but I have never seen one.

Bows are usually strung with horse tail hair. Synthetic hair is also available. The line (in fact the whole song) is fanciful, but I imagine that human hair could be used in a pinch. With enough rosin, nearly anything will sound the strings.

The fingers are placed on the fingerboard by feel and by ear. You learn the correct spacing and correct it on the fly by what you hear. The fiddle is one of the few instruments with true rather than tempered pitch.

Hope this helps!

Jeff

Subject: RE: Fiddle questions
From: Stewart
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 02:24 PM

Jeff is right, so I'll just second his remarks.

1. Since the bridge is curved, only two strings can be played at one time. One can rapidly rotate the bow over several strings, but only two are played at any one time although it might sound like more strings are being played. Bluegrass fiddlers flatten their fiddle bridge to make this easier to do.

2. Bows traditionally use horse hair, which it coarse and can grab the rosin and the strings. Some new bows use a synthetic hair, but that is considered not as good. I suppose any long hair could be used, but a "fine" hair would not hold the rosin and grab the strings as well.

3. One can still see one's fingers, but that's not necessary since the fingers become educated after much practice to know exactly where to place themselves. Personally, I avoid looking at my fingers since that just confuses me. My ear tells me if my fingers are correctly placed, and I can then make minor adjustments as necessary.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: Fiddle questions
From: Stewart
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 03:25 PM

There's also a trick bowing technique where the bow is taken apart, the bow stick is placed under the violin, and the bow hair is placed over the four strings and the bow reassembled, allowing all strings to be played simultaneously. However, this takes much longer hair on the bow, so you wouldn't be able to play in the normal way with such a bow since the hair would be too long to tighten properly.

S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: Fiddle questions
From: Goose Gander
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 04:05 PM

I believe Eck Robertson used to do the trick of playing all four strings at once, and I've heard of fiddlers filing down the bridge so that multiple strings could be played at once.

Subject: RE: Fiddle questions
From: Sorcha
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 04:39 PM

Yes, I was going to point out that the arch of the bridge determines how many strings can be played at once. A classical violin has a severely arched bridge so that you have to WANT to play 2 at once...a fiddle bridge is usually flatter so that 2 is easy and 3 is possible.

I can't imagine human hair is strong enough to hold up on a bow....

Subject: RE: Fiddle questions
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 05:26 PM

I might be worth noting that prior to the invention of the modern bow, the wooden part of the bow was usually significantly arched and was relatively stiff, while the hair was quite slack. The player had to gather the hair up in his/her hand and hold it tight (or not) while playing.

This could have allowed the player to loosen the grip on the bowhair, to contact as many strings as desired, although the classic sources on playing technique (Baillot and Auer at least) don't mention it being done. It would seem that they would have mentioned not being able to do it with a Tourte bow if it was ever a common technique(?).

John

Subject: RE: Fiddle questions
From: Mark Ross
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 05:47 PM

I believe that some of the old time fiddlers would occasionally place a matchstick under some strings so that they could raise them and play 3 or four at once.




Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Fiddle questions
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 07:52 PM

"With enough rosin, nearly anything will sound the strings."

I have a Symphonia. It is an earlier, simpler version of a Hurdy Gurdy - one chanter string and 2 drones - I usually tune the chanter to say G, then one drone to G and the other to F - I only use one drone at a time, allowing both Major & Minor harmonic drones without retuning.

It uses cotton wool wrapped around the strings to contact the moving wheel to sound the strings and vibrate them - with the help of rosin on the wheel. Traditional players of both the Symphonia and Hurdy Gurdy insist on having the string contact the wheel firmly, so as to get that scraping sound. they also insist that all strings be played at once....

I have found that with less string pressure on the wheel (caused by how much packing you use under the string on the bridge), the cotton wool only barely touches the string, and you get a purer sound, like a violin. Too much rosin will kill the sound. Currently having problems cause the original wore a flat spot, so the maker made a new wheel with a laminated outer edge but it is less rough, so the type of cotton wool - or pure wool is critical and I haven't got it back to the original great sound yet.

Subject: RE: Fiddle questions
From: open mike
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 09:28 PM

funny- i just came across this line:
Old bull fiddle and a shoe-string bow
Wouldn't play nothin' but 'Cotton Eyed Joe' ......
but i doubt that a shoe strinig would play bery well..

there is a technique where chop stick like sticks
are "hammered" on the strings (by another player)
this is calle fiddle sticks..

not sure why my mom used to use this as an exclamation:
"oh, fiddlesticks"

Subject: RE: Fiddle questions
From: Frankham
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 10:07 PM

Joe Venuti has a famous piece where he plays four strings at once.

Frank

Subject: RE: Fiddle questions
From: GUEST,Grab
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 07:57 AM

One more - if the fiddle is extended in front of you how can you see properly to tell where you should place your fingers in order to be spot on tune ? Guess a lot ? At least on the mandolin you can see the fretboard when you play.

You can still see your fingers, you're just looking at the fingerboard end-on instead of from the side/top. Stewart's right that listening to the notes lets you "fine-tune" your pitch if you missed slightly, although this is looked down on by classical musicians. ;-) Perfect pitch isn't needed, but relative pitch certainly is. Most people have it, but a few haven't. Unfortunately a guy in our club doesn't, and he's been learning fiddle for the last 4 years or so. It's a shame cos he's a not-bad mandolin player, but he hasn't got the ear to play fiddle.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Fiddle questions
From: GLoux
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 08:06 AM

A few years back, I saw Fiddle Fever in concert and for one piece, Matt Glaser took the frog off his bow, and while grasping the bow hair and the stick with his hand (the stick was under the violin, the strings draped over the top/strings), played all four strings at once. It came off as a "performance trick" that wasn't too musical, but the audience loved it.

-Greg

Subject: RE: Fiddle questions
From: s&r
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 10:10 AM

read this to get an idea of the function of rosin


Stu

Subject: RE: Fiddle questions
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 06:45 PM

"how can you see properly to tell where you should place your fingers"

It's the same with piano and especially pipe organ playing. You should never look at your hands, you should just know where they are. This takes some practice though, but the more you rely on looking at your hands, the longer it will take to build your confidence.

With a pipe organ you look at the keyboard for the feet twice - once when you sit down, so you are sitting in the right relative place, and once when you get up to leave so you don't fall over it.

It's really the same with any instrument, especially with piano accordions. A good party trick is to be blindfolded, or have a light cloth placed over the piano keys - you play mostly by touch anyway.

That article was very good - it was obvious that the rosin was sticking into the hair somehow, but now we know.

Subject: RE: Fiddle questions
From: GUEST,Sleepless Dad
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 10:37 PM

Thanks for all of the information. I knew I could count on you for the answers.

Subject: RE: Fiddle questions
From: Jess A
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 05:47 AM

For specifically fiddle related discussions there's a site http://www.fiddleforum.com/fiddleforum/index.php which you might find interesteing. Very friendly, helpful people on there I have found!

(not suggesting that mudcat people aren't friendly and helpful I hasten to add!)

Jess

Subject: RE: Fiddle questions
From: AggieD
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 06:45 AM

GUESTGrab, don't know of anyone with ears long enough to play fiddle;-)