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BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)

robomatic 01 Jun 05 - 06:27 PM
Wolfgang 02 Jun 05 - 08:17 AM
GUEST,Clarence 02 Jun 05 - 12:24 PM
CarolC 02 Jun 05 - 12:36 PM
Jack the Sailor 02 Jun 05 - 12:47 PM
Once Famous 02 Jun 05 - 03:48 PM
CarolC 02 Jun 05 - 04:02 PM
robomatic 02 Jun 05 - 07:56 PM
GUEST 03 Jun 05 - 12:39 PM
John MacKenzie 03 Jun 05 - 12:55 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 05 - 01:33 PM
John MacKenzie 03 Jun 05 - 02:49 PM
Once Famous 03 Jun 05 - 03:05 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 05 - 03:24 PM
Once Famous 03 Jun 05 - 03:34 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 05 - 04:03 PM
Jack the Sailor 03 Jun 05 - 04:06 PM
Once Famous 03 Jun 05 - 04:16 PM
Jack the Sailor 03 Jun 05 - 04:23 PM
Once Famous 03 Jun 05 - 04:29 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 05 - 04:39 PM
Once Famous 03 Jun 05 - 04:42 PM
Greg F. 03 Jun 05 - 04:44 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 05 - 04:55 PM
jpk 03 Jun 05 - 05:06 PM
Once Famous 03 Jun 05 - 05:09 PM
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jpk 03 Jun 05 - 05:28 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 05 - 05:30 PM
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jpk 03 Jun 05 - 05:38 PM
Once Famous 03 Jun 05 - 05:59 PM
robomatic 03 Jun 05 - 07:36 PM
Jack the Sailor 03 Jun 05 - 08:51 PM
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jpk 04 Jun 05 - 04:19 PM
GUEST,Casual Observer 04 Jun 05 - 04:55 PM
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gnu 04 Jun 05 - 05:40 PM
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John MacKenzie 05 Jun 05 - 03:37 AM
GUEST 05 Jun 05 - 10:57 AM
CarolC 05 Jun 05 - 11:38 AM
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CarolC 05 Jun 05 - 12:22 PM
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CarolC 05 Jun 05 - 12:48 PM
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CarolC 05 Jun 05 - 02:12 PM
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jpk 15 Jun 05 - 05:41 PM
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podman 16 Jun 05 - 02:39 PM
CarolC 16 Jun 05 - 03:12 PM
jpk 16 Jun 05 - 06:58 PM
GUEST,David Hannam 16 Jun 05 - 07:17 PM
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CarolC 17 Jun 05 - 12:11 AM
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CarolC 17 Jun 05 - 05:06 PM
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freda underhill 18 Jun 05 - 05:51 PM
CarolC 18 Jun 05 - 05:52 PM
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dianavan 18 Jun 05 - 07:18 PM
GUEST,David Hannam 19 Jun 05 - 09:03 AM
GUEST,Name withheld. A Female Member. 19 Jun 05 - 10:59 AM
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robomatic 19 Jun 05 - 12:26 PM
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GUEST,David Hannam 19 Jun 05 - 02:12 PM
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freda underhill 19 Jun 05 - 03:10 PM
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Peace 19 Jun 05 - 03:15 PM
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Peace 19 Jun 05 - 03:22 PM
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Subject: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 06:27 PM

I have a slow computer, and I also perceive that the original Muslim Intolerance thread has drifted somewhat from the act of inception, which was the brutal street murder of Theo Van Gogh.

I want to bring forth some more current events, the airing of yet another "elders of Zion" type theme on Arab daytime TV:

Jordanian Soap Opera - Jews Using Voodoo To Destroy Muhammed


and a relatively new story of an attempt to sue Oriana Fallaci based on her critique of radical Muslims.

Oriana Fallaci

It's pretty important to restate that Islam as a religion is like its sister religions, Judaism and Christianity. All have within them seeds of intolerance, and one can't denigrate one without looking to see if one is perhaps turning a blind eye toward one's more habitual spiritual haunts.

Having said that, I belive it is possible that the murder of Theo Van Gogh and acts of anti-semitism in France, the Madrid bombings, and a lack of a counter-clerical movement in European Islam has probably had a hand in the current no votes toward the European constitution in France and the Netherlands.

Having said that, we are also experiencing a war within Islam between the hidebound orthodox clerics, and those who, like the leaders of the Enlightenment in Europe, wish to free the minds of their followers.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Wolfgang
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 08:17 AM

Thanks for the interesting link to the soap opera. Though we all know that in principle nothing is real in these TV-stories they show the prejudices prevalant in the respective society. The other story however is something different.

Smith vs. Fallaci:
That's two hotheads and (here) not to be taken serious people in a clash. Funny to watch but nothing serious.

The part Scottish part Egyptian part Italian Mr. Smith is a late convert to Islam know for his physical force attacks on Christian symbols and on dissenting guests in talkshows. He has sued already everybody from a simple teacher to the old and the new pope (when Ratzinger wasn't pope yet). His many (often lost) court cases can be considered a real job-creation measure for the Italian legal profession. That's just his most recent approach to pick a fight with a celebrity.

Fallaci, the famous journalist, fighter against fascism, once extremely left-liberal, who has interviewed everybody famous in 'Arabia' even when no Western politician talked to them, is now close to death from cancer. She has recently (after 9/11) written in a great hurry two books about the threat of Islam to Europe. "Camelfuckers" who are "breeding like rats", "urinate on our monuments", "shit on our churchyards" and make Europe a "Eurabia" give an impression about her anger and style in these books. There's nothing more left of her former liberal attempt to understand other people that once has made her journalism famous. The left has been embarrassed by these books. "Fuck you" was her public comment when hearing about Smith sueing her.

Funny to watch I said above, but perhaps I should have said 'Sad to watch'. She'll probably die before the case is heard and Smith'll be looking for the next target.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,Clarence
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 12:24 PM

Recent newspaper editorial comment:

SO,WHERE'S THE RIOT?

On Friday,May 27,at least eighteen people were killed and several dozen wounded when a suicide bomber detonated himself at a crowed Muslin shrine on the outskirts of Islamabad.Altough the identity of the bomber is unknown,it is widely believed the attack is yet another chapter in the long-running battle between Pakistan's Sunni and Shiite Muslim extremists.
Given recent eventa,we would have expected the attack to set off riots all over the Islamic world,with Muslims outraged at the senseless death of their co-religionists.But these riots,strangely,did not materialize.Apparently,a rumor that the bomb had knocked a copy of the Koran into a toilet bowl proved unfounded.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 12:36 PM

I'd say this thread is more an example of intolerance toward Muslims than the other way around. Just like the other thread with this title.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 12:47 PM

another view of islam


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 03:48 PM

Al qaida calling the Cunninghams.

Al Quaida calling the Cunninghams.

Do you read us? Please respond and report.

Mohammad here.

Al Quaida calling the Cunninghams. come in, please.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 04:02 PM

For those who don't read the contents of links, this is an excerpt of a Fatwa that was issued on the subject of whether or not American Muslims can fight on behalf of the United States in Muslim countries and still be good Muslims. The particular "Muhammad" in question in this case is the first ever Muslim Chaplain of the United States Army, Abdul-Rasheed Muhammad...

(21:07) Reading from Fatwa

The fatwa, a legal opinion concerning Islamic law, was issued by Muhammad's religious endorser, Taha Jabir Alwani, an Islamic scholar at the School of Islamic and Social Sciences in Leesburg, Virginia � an academy that certifies the religious credentials of those applying to be Muslim chaplains in the armed forces. Read the September 27, 2001 fatwa [English � Arabic] written by prominent scholars from Egypt, Syria, the United States, and Qatar � including a noted critic of U.S. military operations in the Middle East, Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, Grand Islamic Scholar and Chairman of the Sunna and Sira Council in Qatar. Here is a translated excerpt from that edict:

    "The Muslim (soldier) must perform his duty in this fight despite the feeling of uneasiness of "fighting without discriminating." His intention (niyya) must be to fight for enjoining of the truth and defeating falsehood. It's to prevent aggression on the innocents, or to apprehend the perpetrators and bring them to justice. It's not his concern what other consequences of the fighting that might result in his personal discomfort, since he alone can neither control it nor prevent it. Furthermore, all deeds are accounted (by God) according to the intentions. God (the Most High) does not burden any soul except what it can bear. In addition, Muslim jurists have ruled that what a Muslim cannot control he cannot be held accountable for, as God (the Most High) says: "And keep your duty to God as much as you can." 64:16. The prophet (prayer and peace be upon him) said: "when I ask of you to do something, do it as much as you can." The Muslim here is a part of a whole, if he absconds, his departure will result in a greater harm, not only for him but also for the Muslim community in his country � and here there are many millions of them. Moreover, even if fighting causes him discomfort spiritually or psychologically, this personal hardship must be endured for the greater public good, as the jurisprudence (fiqhi) rule states.

To sum up, it's acceptable � God willing � for the Muslim American military personnel to partake in the fighting in the upcoming battles, against whomever, their country decides, has perpetrated terrorism against them. Keeping in mind to have the proper intention as explained earlier, so no doubts would be cast about their loyalty to their country, or to prevent harm to befall them as might be expected. This is in accordance with the Islamic jurisprudence rules which state that necessities dictate exceptions, as well as the rule that says one may endure a small harm to avoid a much greater harm."


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 07:56 PM

Wolfgang, CarolC, JTS:
Thanks for improving the breadth of this thread. Perhaps the title deserves a questionmark.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 12:39 PM

If you expect to get anything across to Martin, you're wasting your time. He can't read.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 12:55 PM

Well carol once again I take issue with your statements, when someone is quoting facts how can that be intolerant? I'm sorry if the facts quoted do not fit your agenda but the are nonetheless facts. Truth is obviously not just the first casualty of war!
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 01:33 PM

John 'Giok' MacKenzie, I refer you, yet once again, to this thread:

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=79000

Using facts in a selective manner in order to smear an entire group with the wrongs committed by some members of that group is a form of intolerance (Joe Offer called it bigotry on the thread in the link I provided). And doing it over and over and over and over and over, ad infinitem, serves the purpose of actively promoting intolerance toward the group in question. Perhaps you can't see beyond your own agenda in order to understand this. GUEST,Clarence's post takes that tactic and adds another level of intolerance based not on the truth, but on a distortion of events promoted by people with an unmistakably intolerant agenda.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 02:49 PM

As you said Carol, using facts .
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 03:05 PM

Al qaida calling the Carol C
Al Quaida calling the Carol C.

Do you read us? Please respond and report.

Mohammad here.

Al Quaida calling the CarolC. come in, please.

We appreciate all you are doing to help us with the jihad. For that, we will now allow you to keep your genitals.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 03:24 PM

My point still stands, John 'Giok' MacKenzie. The selective use of "facts" in this thread and the other one with the same name is more an example of intolerance toward Muslims than the other way around.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 03:34 PM

Al qaida calling the Carol C
Al Quaida calling the Carol C.

Do you read us? Please respond and report.

Mohammad here.

Al Quaida calling the CarolC. come in, please.

We appreciate all you are doing to help us with the jihad. For that, we will now allow you to keep your genitals.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 04:03 PM

And then of course, the other kinds of posts in this thread that have nothing whatever to do with "facts" and that consist of nothing more than bigoted supremacist hatemongering, are an even bigger example how this thread is more about intolerance toward Muslims, than the other way around.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 04:06 PM

Martin Gibson, Al Quaida spokesperson.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 04:16 PM

Not me, pal

Looks you and your old lady do enough propaganda for them. I just love to keep pointing it out.

You are the one who has tolerance for terrorists and love to defend them.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 04:23 PM

You're too bigotted to see the difference between the terrorists and the billion Muslim's who are not. Ironically, your bigotry, small mindedness and verbal violence, while representing yourself as a jew, provides a far better case for countering Israeli oppression of Palestine than Carol's reasoned arguements ever could.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 04:29 PM

any excuse for a Jew hater like you Jack the shithead works just fine for you and your al Quaida Koran loving self and your wife.

Nazi all over support the Palestinian cause. Zeig Heil, Mohammad!!

Go clean out your trailer's sewer, Jack don't fall in and die from the toxicity of it all.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 04:39 PM

Nazis hate Muslims and Arabs just as much as you do, Martin. You hate all of the same groups of people that the Nazis do except for the group you, yourself, identify with. Which of course, is exactly what the Nazis do. They hate everone except for the group they identify with themeselves. Just like you.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 04:42 PM

You know so much about who the Nazis hate. You obviously speak from your own experience.

Please shove it sideways, Carol Mohammad


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 04:44 PM

The "problem" with "Martin Gibson" is not the fictitious personna or the real assole that's behind it, but with the mindless folks that rise to his bait and post to his threads.

Listen up, people: if you want to be free of this asshole IGNORE HIM AND DON'T RESPOND TO HIS SHIT!!

Simple, really.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 04:55 PM

No, Martin. Unlike you, my knowlege of Nazis comes exclusively from observing them from afar, and with extreme distaste. Whereas you understand them because you are just like them.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: jpk
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 05:06 PM

i suppose you feel your a jewish american,right marty.if so you can go right where every one that has to preface there being american with something else first can go.if it is to hard to be an american first,get out of my country. to carol c.what is with the muslim soldier bit,there may be some soldiers that are muslims in the us army;but i hope to hell tere are no muslim soldiers in the us mil.if they are,they do not belong there,or in this country for that matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 05:09 PM

jpk, you really sound and write like you are on drugs or just drunk.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 05:14 PM

CarolC, it's laughable how you call Jews Nazis and stick up for terrorists. I have observed Nazis and felt their anti-semitism and had them march in my town of Skokie when I lived there. It is where there are many holocaust survivors and their families are still living.

It is where my temple and others in the neighborhood have had swastikas painted on the doors. You are a complete idiot with your "studied from afar" tap dance.

The only world you know is what's between your legs. You are a disgrace and one completely stupid person.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: jpk
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 05:28 PM

don't do either marty,i don't fantize about myself either,try and unwind martin,you might have a good then.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 05:30 PM

Same old tap dance from Martoon, the supremacist.

jpk, did you read the contents of the link Jack the Sailor posted on 02 Jun 05 at 12:47 PM?


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 05:34 PM

Hate is hate, Martin, whether it's directed at Jews or at Muslims or Arabs, or anyone else. The Nazis hate everyone who is not like them. You hate everyone who is not like you. You are the same as the Nazis because you hate everyone who is not like you. You are different from the Nazis in only one respect... you do not profess to hate Jews. In all other respects you are the same.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: jpk
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 05:38 PM

carolC,no,i only glanced at it,i believe i might look it over alittle closer now that you brought it to my attention.good day to you jpk.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 05:59 PM

jpk, I sure don't hate veryone. Just a few Mudcatters who have there heads up their asses and whine a lot, besides the anti-semites. You're right in there for being an idiot moron, also.

You ought to get that shift key fixed. At least I find it 75% of the time.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 07:36 PM

ffolkes: this is the time to speak to the point and not attack persons. I didn't start this thread continuation for more 'says you' attacks. If you don't have something concrete to add that is somewhat researched and informative, consider counting to a hundred or waiting till the next morning to post.

Thank you for your care and consideration.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 08:51 PM

Robomatic.

You pathetic bigot. If you don't want this kind of crap, especially from troll in chief, Martin Gibson, don't walk into his playground and invite him to play.

It can be easily show that there are intolerent people among every ethnic and and religious group. Are the many American's are so quick to point out bigotry among Muslims so blind to their own intolerence?


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 10:14 PM

space for nonresponse here. This is how its done folks. JTS thanks for the challenge.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 10:56 PM

JTS, I am intolerant of when you belch real loud and stink up a room with your 4 day old underpants.

Otherwise, I can be pretty easy going.

What a dummy you are.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: jpk
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 04:19 PM

your really easy on people marty.when you tell them to kiss your ass, at least they don't need to bend down to reach it.have a nice day if you can.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,Casual Observer
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 04:55 PM

He certainly brings up the tone of a disussion, doesn't he? He doesn't actually SAY anything, he just throws obscenities and abuse. His main objective, of course, is to disrupt any discussion that might bring up points that he disagrees with, and in that, he seems to be pretty successful. In doing that, it appears that he's quite a good censor.

Why does anybody pay any attention to this pathetic little crypto-fascist?


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: jpk
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 05:02 PM

good point


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: gnu
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 05:40 PM

So, anyone doing anything fun on a Saturday night in Mudville? Me, I am stuck home with a pain in the neck. Pushed it a bit today with installing AC's at my Mum's. Of course, about two hours after we started, the temp dropped by about 5C and the forecast is for 'you don't need AC for at least another week'.

Anyone up for some Eminem's? NNWW. Eh, wha'? Knoooow what I mean, eh Govnah?


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 05:45 PM

I prefer Smarties. Do you eat the red ones last?


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 05:52 PM

Smarties were the original, right? That's where the song is from. Are Eminems different colors? They melt in your mouth right? I don't remember Smarties melting in my hand but maybe that's because I inhaled them as a kid.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,gnu
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 07:48 PM

Yeah... from the song... do you suck them very slowly, Or crunch them very fast? It's that candy coated Chocolate, so tell me when I ask....


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 07:53 PM

Treats - melt in your mouth not in your hand.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 03:37 AM

I was just thinking yesterday that this thread could be re-titled Moslem Tolerence, it could then become a discussion as to why the majority of moslems who believe in the Koran and its' teachings, are not up in arms like the rest of us condemning the actions of the militant minority. As Edmund Burke almost said "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Are they becoming like the Catholic church, or even some police forces, more concerned with maintaining the image of their organisation than in weeding out the rotten apples contained in their particular barrel?
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 10:57 AM

The Muslims probably feel like a persecuted majority, much as the Pat Robertsons and Jerry Falwells of America. The 100% Muslim nation of Saudi Arabia, where it is death to try and convert a Muslim, and the many overweening majorities of Yemen, Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Sudan, Libya, Azerbaijan, Usbekistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Turkmenistan. Such a fount of democraic thought and wisdom.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 11:38 AM

I was just thinking yesterday that this thread could be re-titled Moslem Tolerence, it could then become a discussion as to why the majority of moslems who believe in the Koran and its' teachings, are not up in arms like the rest of us condemning the actions of the militant minority.

This is an assumption and not based on fact. And it is an example of one of the more insidious kinds of intolerance (or possibly bigotry) towards Muslims that we see in the West. Just because you haven't heard about them doing what you mention doesn't mean they aren't doing it. It just means that the sources you go to for news and information are ignoring it when it does happen.

And most people couldn't be bothered to take the time to find out for themselves, because of their own intolerance toward Muslims.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 11:59 AM

I don't see any other groups with terrorist training camps other than Moslems.

New ones have been cranking them out now in Pakistan last I heard.

I know that many of you tolerate this. It's so obvious.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 12:22 PM

Many, many groups besides Muslims have training camps for "terrorists/insurgents/freedom fighters/guerilla fighers", etc. Whether or not the governments of countries like the US recognize them as "terrorists" really depends on whether or not the US is using them to further their own agendas. Often, when the US is using these people as proxy fighters, the government of the US refers to them as "freedom fighters" or as "rebels". The only thing that determines whether or not they will be labeled as "terrorists" is whether or not they are useful to the US government.

In the case of Muslims, at this point in time, the US government's agenda is better served by calling Muslims terrorists rather than any of the other names they could be using. Back when the US was using Muslims in Afghanistan as proxy fighters against the Soviet Union, the government of the US had other, more benign names for them. And of course, many of those very same people, trained by the US in Afghanistan, and doing the bidding of the US there (Osama bin Laden being the most well know of these), are now considered "terrorists". It's all the same thing, though. Just different spin.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 12:28 PM

That's bullshit. Comparing armies of organized countries to a religious group of Islamic-facists with no other motive than to cause terror and not PROTECT a recognized country but to rid the world of "infidels" shows what kind of a moron you are and shows that you cross the line with your tolerance crap.

Tolerance has limits. Tolerance is NOT open-ended. Tolerance is not the answer to terrorists. Tolerance for the sake of tolerance does not have to automatically be..................tolerated.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 12:40 PM

I'm not comparing armies to terrorists, Martin. I'm talking about people who are not affiliated with any recognized armies, and are operating covertly as terrorists. But when we are funding, training, and giving marching orders to these people, as we did for instance in some Central American countries, we call them "freedom fighters". But they are still terrorists. Just with different affiliations and targets. And anyone who supports the use of these kinds of people by the US government is "tolerating" terrorism, as I suspect you yourself have done/are doing.

In one Central American country where the US was training and funding terrorists, they (the terrorists) were trained to shoot at peasants who were fleeing in the night from the people who were slaughtering them. In the absence of night vision equipment, the terrorists were trained to shoot towards the sound of babies crying. That was being done at the behest of the US government and with its blessing.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 12:41 PM

Let me put it this way then Carol, I have seen and heard Leaders of the Moslem community refuse to condemn the actions of these militants when invited to do so, in the same way as Jerry Adams is careful never to condemn the actions of the IRA. No doubt you will come up with some anodyne excuse, but being an apologist for murderers in no way helps to alleviate the problems they cause, nor does it reduce the body count in any way.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 12:48 PM

Well, I have seen and heard many, many Muslims all over the world, doing precisely what you say they have not been doing, John 'Giok' MacKenzie. So you are working with only a small percentage of the total population of Muslims in the world. To condemn all of them for the few you have a problem with would be exactly the same thing as if I were to blame you for the activities of extremists in your country and those who don't speak out against them (the BNP for example).


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 01:16 PM

Giok, she symphathizes with terrorists, that's all there is to it.

Poor little terrorists. Fighting for freedom. Yeah sure. Fighting to destroy anyone and everyone who doesn't bow to allah.

Put her in a room with some of them and we'll see how long she lasts.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 01:25 PM

You're the one who sympathizes with terrorists, Martoon. I criticize and condemn all forms of terrorism. You only condemn terrorism when it is committed by people you hate. You give your full support to it when it is committed by people you agree with.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 01:48 PM

Not true, Carol C.

You need a top hat and cane with your tap dance.

Everyone here knows you are the biggest Islamic-Facist sympathizer here.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 01:54 PM

Very good point Carol.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 01:59 PM

Very bad point, Carol

Stupid and wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 02:12 PM

Absolutely true, Martoon, and you are a liar.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,Casual Observer
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 02:36 PM

Martin, are you trying to say that the United States doesn't have training camps for terrorists? What about the School of the Americas at Fort Benning, Georgia? And this is not the only one.

You might get your facts straight before you start attacking other people----   

Oh, that's right! You don't give a shit about facts. You just want to rant.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: jpk
Date: 15 Jun 05 - 05:41 PM

looks as if monday vanished,but what i said was basicly look to our [friends]the saudi's and there patent intolerance for and persecusion of anything and anyone having to do with other religions,esp cristian based,and these people are the better ones,most arab leaders also use the us as a scape goat,some place to focous the subjects anger besides themselfs,to keep the peions from relising just how much they are stealing from them.make us the great satan be the blame for there woes, not those smug bastards in yhere palaces.btw have a nice day and god bless[i loved the way that last teed mg off so much,but i do mean it]jpk


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jun 05 - 05:45 PM

Hi, David. Please fuck off.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 05 - 08:13 PM

jpk, the reason the problems in Saudi Arabia are as bad as they are is because the US is propping up a totalitarian regime in that country. In that particular case, the totalitarian regime that the US is propping up is Muslim. But there are plenty of non-Muslim totalitarian regimes that the US is also propping up. To the detriment of the people of those countries, I might add.

The reason the US props up totalitarian regimes all over the world is so that it can control the natural resources of those countries, or at the very least, have exclusive access to those resources. And also for the purpose of putting military bases in those countries, again, in order to achieve and to maintain world domination.

In Iran, for instance, there was a fledgling democracy there for a short while prior to the reign of the Shah's totalitarian regime. This fledgeling democracy was crushed by the US through a CIA backed coup, and the Shah and his totalitarian regime were installed in the place of the democratically elected government. This was for the purpose of controling that country's oil. The Islamic revolution in that country that brough the Ayatollahs to power was a direct result of the oppression of the Shah's brutal regime, in his capacity as client and puppet of the United States.

The people of Saudi Arabia are not at all happy with their government. The fact that the US is propping up that government (and also keeping military bases in that country) against the wishes of the majority of people there is a very big part of the reason the people in that country are very angry with the US.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: podman
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 02:39 PM

carol and jpk you are actually more in agreement than not because it is apparent that Muslim intolerance is become a tool to be used to manipulate those who are taught that ignorance is strength and to think for oneself is a crime. The Saudis have encouraged that kind of discipline among their own people and it is having its effect. The first victims of Muslim intolerance are other Muslims, similar to the original victims of Nazi Germans being other Germans. Left untreated this condition can spread the way an especially obnoxious virus does. intolerance is a symptom.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 03:12 PM

it is apparent that Muslim intolerance is become a tool to be used to manipulate those who are taught that ignorance is strength and to think for oneself is a crime

That's an interesting point, Podman. The very same thing is being done right here in the US by a government and mainstream media that is not Muslim. That is one of the reasons we see so much Muslim bashing in our media. It serves one purpose... so people won't mind so much when we kill large numbers of Muslims, as we have been in the last several years.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: jpk
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 06:58 PM

well to look at it the europeans are starting to become feed up with the muslim comunity to a very large degree,as to proping up goverments let us get the hay out of europe[eng.ger.etc]we have been proping up there rearends since ww twice.the damn french are getting mad that they might have to work more than an 30 hour week,heck if you get right down to it we should have let the soviets handle it,then the poor[sic] basterds would know what real torture is like,if they have not had enough under there own govt.also i do not believe that iran is any better of now than before,much worse really,and we certianly are not openly proping them up[behind the scene maybe can't tell this day and age]!also remeber that we got involved,when the french and brits pulled out after ww2[nam was little later when the french ran and jfk got us intangled there.it's all really just another mess we inherited from the old world[history repeats again]


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 07:17 PM

Awww, poor brucie, i answered your questions, you were clearly rattled, i asked you in turn to answer some of mine, and whats the best you can come up with, "Fuck Off".

Brucie, you are without doubt the most laughable excuse for an intelligant person i have ever met. Difference between people like you and me in the end, is that i am succesful, you are not. Whilst i drive a nice car, beautiful girlfriend, and work very hard and enjoy living in a nice area and a nice house, you will only ever find poverty...and you know why? No reason other than you are a fool. Pathetic even.

There are clever people on here, clever people who can refute my arguments, but you, you can't muster one.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 11:31 PM

Dear David,

Forget the please. Just fuck off.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 11:37 PM

Hannam,

While we're at it, allow me to say this last thing.

You are a poor excuse for a person, ragardless of your wealth and your girlfriend. I have my doubts about folks who define themselves in terms of the things the 'possess'. What I see in you is a repressed little boy who is now all grown up, except mentally. Your image depends on your CAR and your GIRLFRIEND? Jaysus. Quit the Nazi Party and get a life where you can try to do some good for those less fortunate than you are. Novel concept to you, maybe--but David, you are not part of some new elite. Just a blot of vomit on the face of life. Look at your Party. Look at what they espouse. Then tell me how wonderful you are, hotshot. Until then, fuck off.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 11:55 PM

click


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 12:00 AM

Love that link, GUEST.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,Little Engine That Coulda But Didna
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 12:07 AM

To your little list of fascists you could add:

Taliban

Wahhabi

Al Qaeda

Baathists

Hamas


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 12:11 AM

Define "fascist", Little Engine.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 04:27 AM

I can define 'dickhead' - someone who continues to FEED THE NAZI!


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 04:46 AM

Bruce, that was a post of a loser. haha.

What you mean is, you don't have nothing, so why should anyone else, especially me?

Face facts mate, you are a failure. You can't even construct a single answer to the 6 questions i asked in return for your questions answered. At first i thought it might be due to some principled stance, but i realise it was because you can't string a single argument together.

Brucie, your losing...hahahah


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: DavidHannam
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 05:06 AM

The problem with any subject that incorporates the issue of ethnicity, is that these issues have become the new victorian equivelant of 'sex', i.e that not to spoken about.

If people wonder why resentments fester etc, it's because the public feel that they can't talk about such matters, or at least there is nowhere for them to vent their concerns, some founded and some unfounded.

By criminalizing the issues of immigration, terrorism (and it's connection to religious fanatics) they stifle the general public of venting their feelings and there is no wonder resentment festers with community pitting against community.

I think if people were allowed their say on these subjects there would be less aggravation. It's a similar situation in Burnley where the BNP has done well, race crimes have actually dropped in Burnley. Why? Because people feel that there is someone there to represent their opinions rather than getting so worked up a mindless stupid minority take physical action.

In many ways, Brucie's retorts are directly the cause of the publics aggravation on the issues at hand. SOmeone spouts an opinion about not agreeing with multi-culturalism and brucie would simply shout them dow n with a torrent of abuse as has been proved again and again.

People like Carol on the other hand, although she may disagree with what people have to say, she is actually willing to engage in debate and reason, hence at least creating an outlet of talk for people on this issue.

Basically, to sum up: What is needed to help reduce tensions amongst communities is talk.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,T8
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 05:10 AM

Blah Blah Blah.

Nazi Troll.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 05:21 AM

Welcome to Mudcat David.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 07:41 AM

Thanks Flamenco.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 10:17 AM

"Brucie, your losing...hahahah"

Should read

"You're losing."

I won't welcome you to Mudcat. Not yesterday, not today and not tomorrow.

Nazi trash--don't need it here.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,brucie
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 10:19 AM

Above post was me.

"brucie would simply shout them dow n with a torrent of abuse"

Yeah. Your group, on the other hand, beats the shit out of folks who disagree. Trash. Nazi trash.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,brucie
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 10:24 AM

"the new victorian equivelant of 'sex'"

Your sense of your own history is screwed up. "The Pearl" was written and printed during Victoria's reign--it was a pornograhic publication. Sex was no more repressed than it is today. Find out something of your own history, little boy, and until then, please fuck off.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 11:46 AM

"Bruce, that was a post of a loser."

That's good coming from you. When's the last election you won? You have a seat somewhere? Other than at the goosestep meetings? Trash.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,David Hannam BNP
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 02:13 PM

Yes you do sound like a shrieking girl unfortunately.

haha, you call me little boy, but note how this little boy is more successful than you only dream of. Your like one of those embittered old men who have never done anything with their life and resent seeing a young person make a success. You a failure Brucie. I get more coverage playing guitar already than you ever have.

Also, i note you couldn't even keep your wife satisfied, hahahaha, you even failed there too. hahaha. Then again, judging by the size of minute intellect if it reflects the size of your manhood i ain't that surpised.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 02:18 PM

"Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,brucie - PM
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 11:44 AM

Hang on. I sound like a ridiculous shrieking girl when I read these posts back to myself."

Joe and the Clones. This is not my post, either. Out the prick who's using my name.

David, you are one limp dick.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 02:27 PM

Hahaha, Brucie, you can't start retracting your statements you made just cos you made yourself sound like a shrieking girl. hahahahahahahahaha

I'd say go fuck your mother, but if your wife won't even fuck you i don't suppose your mother would? Unless your mother and wife are one and the same???

lol, poor brucie, and even now he still hasn't managed to string a decent argument or answer a single question.

I suppose you'd resent me having a degree would you too? Your a loser in life my friend. To see success must be so annoying to people like you.

I mean, i keep my woman!


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 03:02 PM

Well, well. You were warned what kind of person you were dealing with. If none of you had responded this thread would have dropped off the page by now. Instead we have a full blown MG wannabe.

Now lets have another twenty posts telling us why you want to respond to David. Instead of ignoring him. It's really too hard for some folk to do isn't it?

Enjoy your discourse.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: gnu
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 03:06 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: DavidHannam
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 03:11 PM

Well Guest, if you look, i have always tried to post on the subject at hand. Look at the posts Brucie has made, and compare how many have actually been on the issue at hand. He even asked me a list of questions numbered, i answered them all, i asked him some, he could not even create a single response to any one of them.

I obviously respond to Brucie alone with his silly girl shrieks, however, i do not, or try not to, respond to others. I have debated with Carole, whom i disagree with on matters, but certainly took some of her points on, and she at least made me go away and question matters.

As for the type of person you are dealing with? Excuse me, are you telling old brucie has been a model of respectibility on this forum?


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 03:21 PM

MG is that you ?


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: DavidHannam
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 03:21 PM

and returning to the subject, i actually spoke to a young muslim male today whilst canvassing.

He attends his mosque accordingly. I asked him if he ever encountered problems, and he spoke of young muslims around his area vandalising. I was suprised to hear that amongst his community there is a growing drugs problem too, he said his parents and others were upset about what was happening, and he mentioned his parents had divorced and his sister is on drugs. I really didn't expect to hear of muslim divorce.

To be fair, it shows that the problems society is encountering is not distinct to any one group or ethnicity in this country. We all share the same problems. It needs all to work together and to equally recognize our differences as something unique and not something wrong.

This same town last year had its application for a St Georges Day celebration refused by council!! This sort of folly by our councils merely causes people to harbour resentments. It is the councillors, leaders who need to be replaced with a fair state before we can achieve some sort of understanding between communities.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 03:39 PM

"I suppose you'd resent me having a degree would you too? Your a loser in life"

I don't resent you having a degree. It's not in English, that's for sure.

David: My sexual abilities or lack thereof seem to occupy your thoughts. Does your girlfriend know this about you?

Also, David, just so's your are aware, folks on Mudcat already know I'm an asshole. Your posts above have shown YOU to be one, too. That, stupid, is all I wanted to accomplish.

As to musical abilities, I have never heard you play so I will not comment. But then, you have never heard me play either, so there you go talking through your arse again. Something you picked up from Mein Kampf, no doubt.

Kiss, kiss, sweet lips.

Brucie


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 03:40 PM

"As for the type of person you are dealing with? Excuse me, are you telling old brucie has been a model of respectibility on this forum?"

I am as far from being a model of respectability as anyone could get. However, I am not a Nazi. You are, David.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: DavidHannam
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 03:49 PM

Jeez, that post from you was the most dissapointing yet.

No, my girfriend doesn't know about my preoccupation with your lack of sexual abilties, or indeed as as you say, lack of! So brucie, are you EVER going to muster the brains to counter a single argument yet? I noticed you could not answer one of my questions i posted you? You are not thick as well as shit in bed are you?   Perhaps i should ask your wife, i mean she knows the latter maybe she knows the former?


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,Mrs. Hannam
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 04:03 PM

Oooh David when will you be home ?

I'm waiting for you in my Ilsa - She Wolf of the SS outfit that really turns you on mmmm.

I can't wait to whip you, shit on you and call you Adolph like you ask me to - that really turns you on.

Hurry home baby I'm getting hot just thinking about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 04:09 PM

The above post was not by me.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 04:11 PM

"Jeez, that post from you was the most dissapointing yet.

No, my girfriend doesn't know about my preoccupation with your lack of sexual abilties, or indeed as as you say, lack of! So brucie, are you EVER going to muster the brains to counter a single argument yet? I noticed you could not answer one of my questions i posted you? You are not thick as well as shit in bed are you?   Perhaps i should ask your wife, i mean she knows the latter maybe she knows the former?"

About three people messaged me saying that David would not have posted the stuff he did under the name GUEST, David Hannam.

Folks, you were wrong.

Bruce Murdoch


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: DavidHannam
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 04:25 PM

Mrs Hannam. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

That was honestly very funny!!!!!!!!

As for my posting, the last post anyone should be concerned about was this last one:

and returning to the subject, i actually spoke to a young muslim male today whilst canvassing.

He attends his mosque accordingly. I asked him if he ever encountered problems, and he spoke of young muslims around his area vandalising. I was suprised to hear that amongst his community there is a growing drugs problem too, he said his parents and others were upset about what was happening, and he mentioned his parents had divorced and his sister is on drugs. I really didn't expect to hear of muslim divorce.

To be fair, it shows that the problems society is encountering is not distinct to any one group or ethnicity in this country. We all share the same problems. It needs all to work together and to equally recognize our differences as something unique and not something wrong.

This same town last year had its application for a St Georges Day celebration refused by council!! This sort of folly by our councils merely causes people to harbour resentments. It is the councillors, leaders who need to be replaced with a fair state before we can achieve some sort of understanding between communities


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 04:38 PM

"Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,brucie - PM
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 11:44 AM

Hang on. I sound like a ridiculous shrieking girl when I read these posts back to myself."

NOT MY POST


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: jpk
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 04:42 PM

simple solution;for the countries that you wish to cry about,and how bad they are being used by the one you live in.well immigrate to one of them[if they will let you most won't,but we will let them do so'immigrate to ours']and try to help them stop the exploytation of there countries[bet there leaders will stop you from doing so].i hope you make thru the trial for treason, if they let you have one that is.face the facts,our countries and there leaders may not be saints[the us,gb,germ,fr,etc],but they are far better than almost any of the other choices,thats why we still live here,we can still try to change the things we don't like,with out being locked up or beheaded[for the most part anyway,if not carefull they will take that from us to if we let them'and damn it we are letting them'things like the pat. act. and the tsb are just the foot/feet in the door].we have it good compared to most.they could too if they would fight for it,and knew the truth about who to fight,and that who is not us but there own leadership.same as we have done in the past,distant and not so distant past.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 05:06 PM

jpk, this is what it means to be a patriot...

My country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be put right.

It would be cowardly for me to run away to another country instead of staying right here and trying to help fix what's broken. A true patriot would know this.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,From the bleachers
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 05:24 PM

Carol you were running your country down a couple of threads ago regarding their support of Saudi Arabia, not very consistent, but then obsessives are rarely consistent.
FTB


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 05:26 PM

Yes, bleachers, I was stating some of the problems that need to be fixed. In what way is that inconsistant with my saying it would be cowardly for me to run away to another country instead of staying here and helping to fix the problems?


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 05:49 PM

"Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,brucie - PM
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 11:44 AM

Hang on. I sound like a ridiculous shrieking girl when I read these posts back to myself."

DEAR JOE AND THE CLONES.

I seem to be having a memory lapse. Would you be kind enough to tell me the internet address I posted the above message from? If you don't want to post it on the thread then just message me with it, OK? I have posted some strange stuff, and maybe I did post that. Tell me the i'net address and I'll check out where I have been today. Must be an example of multiple personality disorder. Just want to check up on myself.

Thank you.

Bruce Murdoch


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 06:42 PM

"From: GUEST,brucie - PM
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 11:44 AM"


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 06:45 PM

"From: GUEST,brucie - PM
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 11:44 AM"

JOE AND THE CLONES

Would you please tell me the address I posted that from? I don't recall doing that post, and I would like to know where I have been today. I realize it's an inconvenience, but since it has my Mudcat name on it, I think I have a right to know where it originated.

At your earliest convenience. By message would be fine with me. Thank you,

Bruce Murdoch (AKA brucie)


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 05:58 AM

JPK, all i know is that my Grandfather didn't flee to a 'safe' country when this Country was under attack by Nazi Hordes, and it's to people like him that i am thankful.

In Hull, the majority of Asylum Seekers are 18-30 year old men. I have never seen rarely any children or women? Why? These people cross upto a dozen countries sometimes to reach here, why? If i had been under the threat of persecution and feared for my, and my family's life, i would have thanked god merely to get into the next safe country, or, if i were wanting to smuggle people into vans to cross Europe, then it would have been my family, women and children first.

No, what happens is young men smuggle themselves here and the women and children are left back home to face the brunt of social discord.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 05:40 PM

They smuggle themselves there for the same reason the Gurkha people of Nepal made their services available to the British military: to send money to their loved ones in Nepal. They endured long periods of separation from children and wives, and thus were able to provide the necessities for their families. Spomething similar happens when Mexican people jump the border and enter the US. They are going where the money is so that their families can survive.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: jpk
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 05:43 PM

by all means carol,try to change what you wish.i may or may not care for your ideas,but i support your right to try for chg,ithink isaid the same in my last post[in a gen way;to you mr.hannam,thank your g.f. for me as well please.as for the men,the ones that run to excape so as to return fighting,i understand,the ones that run too not return,i do dispise;for myself i thank god for my father and those who seved with him[took german in jr.high,didn't like it,strange i did like rusky and i am part german not rusky]so i am glad we arn't speeking it.for the most part i belive we gen agree.also carol try to maybe focus a little on whats right and not always on what maybe wrong;have a good day and god bless.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: jpk
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 05:49 PM

ps i do agree that we all have the right to agree to disagree,to that i do agree,am i asleep or did i spell that wrong,agree don't look right,wake me up please


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: freda underhill
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 05:51 PM

often its the sons who are at risk, for example in Afghanistan, the young Hazara men were particularly targeted by the Taliban - they were murdered, or kidnapped and sent to the front line to fight for the taliban, against their own side. If they refused to do so they were shot.

Families put all their money together to send the oldest son - then, once the son has reached safety, it is their duty to try and earn enough so that more members of the family can be brought out. Those with the resources come as a family, but most people can't do that.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 05:52 PM

We can't change what's wrong unless we focus on it first, jpk. Have a good day, yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: jpk
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 05:55 PM

got to run for now carol, but i just like to spend more time looking to the bright side than the dark side,thats all[opps some star wars snuked in thar.bye now ya'll


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 06:22 PM

i just like to spend more time looking to the bright side than the dark side,thats all

That's good to know, jpk. Perhaps you could apply some of that philosophy to those of your fellow humans who are Muslims, as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 07:18 PM

Freda - You're absolutely right.

When the Chinese came to N. America, they came without their families.

Iranian boys become soldiers at fourteen. Thats a pretty good reason for sending them elsewhere.

During the dust bowl, my grandfather farmed out his brood to relatives and headed to the west coast looking for work.

When men are separated from their families and seek work elsewhere, the money they earn is often sent back home to feed the women and children.

So David, exactly who are you referring to? Please be specific.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 09:03 AM

Dianavan. I am reffering to young males of Eastern European origin who have terrorised young women in Hull. Do you have any idea how many Hull women have been raped by these 'people'?


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,Name withheld. A Female Member.
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 10:59 AM

Dianavan you bring up some very good points.


The reply you recieved however is par course. Fear inducing...Raping Women...it is an insult to the people on this forum's intelligence by posting reponses such as this one to your question.

Hate crimes are on the rise and as a 25 year experienced Rape Crisis Worker myself (that is my reason for posting Anon) I cannot find any support for the ludicrous suggestions made by the BNP organiser from Hull.

In the 30+ years that I have pro actively fought against Rascism it was with some surprise that I discovered posts from this Party on the Mudcat a while back.

I had however been informed that this was indeed going to be the new approach, the new strategy of White Supremist/Hate Groups worldwide.

The B** and others have no funds to get their message out there so they will now be using the internet, coming into forums and provoking discussion and perhaps that way they 'may' collect a few 'converts' along the way.

I will say this. Many People from all Racial backgrounds have been beaten and Hospitialized by persons associated with this Party (some, and only some of those associates are the NF, C18 and certain Members of the BNP themselves) That is a FACT that I can verify. I myself still have my Police reports and Hosptial records that will support this as do MANY other Victims that I know well.

One has to be particular careful as sometimes the argument or debate fuels the Rascism itself if the points are not made effectively. The BNP Organiser for Hull's answer to Dianavan's question to "specify" is a perfect example of these tactics.

A open Forum on the Internet is perhaps the worst place to even tackle these kind of issues and rascist slurs. The posts then become available to many people, who may be unbalanced enough to believe the BNP's kind of propaganda.

From the comfort of being anonymous and in one's Home, perhaps very far away from where a particluar Hate group operates, I myself try to remember that the anger that can be generated during debate here can then be taken out of the Internet and inflicted on a Victim in the real world.


I am disappointed that the B** was allowed a platform to air their distortions on the Mudcat. If ever there was a case in point of 'Do not respond" that was it but...it would seem that is a redundant term on the Mudcat now and has been for sometime unfortunately.

So I feel that by attempting discussion on these issues with the BNP Organiser for Hull I am encouraging and by encouraging...I could unknowningly contribute to the problem.   Therefore I will not attempt to engage in any exchange with The BNP Organiser for Hull (or any other Rascist that posts here for that matter) again. The risks are not worth the effort in my opinion.

I will not be back on this Thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 11:54 AM

Name withheld. lololololol.

Actually on a serious note, if you really work for Rape Crisis, you will know first hand the brutal treatment of muslim women by their husbands! Surely you share this disgust?

And really...i would like to know where you come from, you say you have NEVER come across a case of a British White woman attacked by an asylum seeker? You must live in a very cosy area of Britain, shame, because the rest of us have to live in the ghetto's where these things are a DAILY occurance.

If spreading the truth is spreading hate, how will the truth ever survive? Don't take my word for it, research, look how many women are mistreated and raped in EVERY town asylum seekers have been dispersed to. To say these women are what? Liars? Is seriously offending the victims.

Cmon, we have all read in the Hull Daily Mail the following line..."Police are looking for a man of Eastern European Appearance..." It is a disgrace.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 12:26 PM

Saying you know a discrete case of such and such proves nothing. What you know is not the topic, and is not likely to advance your point.

If you are going to make a cultural or racial accusation such as the one s above it should be done with actual figures and statistics that can be independently obtained by those on this thread who care. Implying that one group is worse than others is such a well known and overused racist tactic that it pretty much invalidates the thread. Most recently look at the readiness to assume that black security personnel were behind the disappearance of a white American girl in Aruba.

If you're going to play the 'they are a danger in this area' card don't come on the scene unless you are brining facts, and if the facts ain't there, you should re-think your assumptions. Otherwise you are actually showing anti-Muslim Intolerance, which also exists but is not supposed to be the subject of this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 01:20 PM

Some stats here.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 01:23 PM

Scroll down a bit. Stats for 2001 England and Wales.

David, no offense, but I am more inclined to listen to a rape-crisis counsellor than a politician concerning rape.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 02:01 PM

"Dianavan. I am reffering to young males of Eastern European origin who have terrorised young women in Hull. Do you have any idea how many Hull women have been raped by these 'people'?"

GUEST, David--a more cogent question is this: "Do YOU have any idea?"


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 02:12 PM

Perhaps you are missing the point.

When a woman in Hull is attacked by Asylum Seekers, the police and media describe that person as Eastern European, (in other words asylum seekers).

When a black woman is attacked, it is a race-hate crime.

But look at Keighley, MP Ann Cryer, pushed by Nick Griffin even admitted that white girls in Keighley were being groomed.

http://www.thisisbradford.co.uk/bradford__district/archive/2004/12/03/keig_news04.int.html

http://www.thisisbradford.co.uk/bradford__district/archive/2005/02/26/brad_news01.int.html

http://www.channel4.com/news/2003/08/week_4/22_keigh.html

The case above, this actually has Channel 4 ADMITTING THAT ALL THE VICTIMS ARE WHITE AND ALL THE GUILTY ARE ASIAN!

There are hundreds more cases in keighley alone.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 02:18 PM

One robin doth not a spring make. An old Yiddish expression for you: "For instance is not proof."


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 02:24 PM

Sure Bruce, tell that to the young girls of Keighley who have had their lives ruined.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 02:27 PM

I am not suggesting that rape is not a serious offense. It is. However, your assertion that rape is committed by people of certain ethnicities is bunk. It is committed by men. You find stats that break rapes into crimes committed by only men of certain ethnicities and I will give it a read. But until then you are not making a helluva lotta sense to me.

BM


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 02:33 PM

Myth: It is strangers in dark alleys who rape.
Fact: Surveys indicate that about 60% of men who rape know the woman they are raping, as in acquaintance and date rape.

Kinda shoots your argument in the foot, doesn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 02:40 PM

Look, the authorities accept asian grooming of white girls is happening, its local MP accepts it is happening, the MEDIA accepts it is happening, and of course Nick Grifin has highlighted it is happening!!

You want stats? Brucie, do you really rely on government home office stats for a reliable source of data? This government is anti-white in nature, and would never in a million years portray the truth that white people could be the victim of racist attacks?

Of course racism cuts both ways, as i'm sure you agree? But to believe that what we are seeing in places like Keighley and elswhere is not racist grooming is nonsensical. Another recount below from Bradford newspaper. There are more, a lot more...if you need them...?

http://www.thisisbradford.co.uk/bradford__district/archive/2003/11/14/keig_news01.int.html

Sex predator jailed

by David Knights

A 24-year-old man who "groomed" a 13-year-old girl before having sex has been jailed for 15 months.

Delwar Hussain, of Lawkholme Lane, Keighley, will have to register as a sex offender with the police for the next ten years.

He was convicted by a jury last month of two offences of indecent assault after he had sex with the youngster on two occasions and was sentenced earlier this week.

The youth worker was described by a judge as a "predator" who targeted a girl knowing she was young.

Hussain was the first man to be prosecuted following police investigations into an alleged ring of Asian men "grooming" under-age white girls.

Keighley MP Ann Cryer has claimed that 60 local men have been luring girls, some as young as 11, to have sex with them. Police this week revealed they are preparing two more prosecutions and continuing investigations in several other cases.

Det Insp Trevor Gasson, told the Keighley News that Hussain's prison sentence showed the courts took a serious view of such a crime.

But he stressed the need for more young victims to give evidence and other people to pass on any information they knew.

Det Insp Gasson said: "There is still a reluctance for victims to come forward and stand up against their tormentors."

Mrs Cryer said she hoped more victims would see the importance of reporting their ordeals to police. She believed many crimes went unreported because the young girls saw the men as their boyfriends, or through fear of reprisals.

Mrs Cryer added: "I hope the message will get through to the perpetrators of the error of their ways and they will stop.

"If one man has already been successfully prosecuted, it might bring an end to this terrible business."

Judge Roger Scott described Hussain's victim, who cannot be identified for legal reasons, as an extremely good witness, but said Hussain had made a very bad impression when he gave his evidence.

"Your demeanour was devious,'' said Judge Scott.

"I take the view that the offences you were convicted of were planned offences. That you had targeted a young child, very well knowing the child was young.''

He said he was prepared to accept that the victim was 13 at the time, but he stressed that Hussain had "groomed" her before having sex.

Prior to Hussain's trial a Keighley News report about so-called "cruising" by young men in the Keighley area was shown to Judge Scott.

He this week told Hussain: "I don't know what's been going on in Keighley with young girls and what the newspaper report had to say.

"Fortunately, for you I'm not sentencing you on the basis of that newspaper report ... but I have to try to protect young children of 13 from themselves and from predators such as you.''

Hussain's barrister, Sarah Barlow, argued that there was another side to her client and she handed in a reference relating to his positive involvement in youth work.

"That assists in showing there is a very different side to this young man and this really is a one-off offence,'' she suggested.

She also pointed out that other aspects of the case, including a diary and text messages, indicated that there was an on-going relationship between Hussain and the girl.

Judge Scott, sitting at Bradford Crown Court, noted that Hussain had no previous convictions and that from everything written about him he appeared to be a perfectly, decent young man, who was buying his own home.

"Ranged at the side of me are your family. Your mother and other members of your family.

"That is not something they ever anticipated in your life, having to come to court to support you,'' said Judge Scott.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 02:46 PM

Uh, David, that particular stat came from

Hull Rape Crisis
PO Box 40, Hull HU1 3BJ
Helpline: 01482 39990
Mondays: 10.30am - 12.30pm
Thursdays: 5.30pm - 7.30pm
24 hours answer machine at all other times

They are a member organization of the Rape Crisis Federation, England and Wales.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 02:54 PM

Bruce, are you saying you don't believe asian grooming of white girls is occuring in Keighley? Even when the police, media, its local MP all say it is?


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 02:55 PM

"This government is anti-white in nature, and would never in a million years portray the truth that white people could be the victim of racist attacks?"

I am sure that White people ARE sometimes the victims of racist attacks. As I have pointed out to you on occasion, racism is not a one-way street. There is nothing especially sacrosanct about being White. Stupidity is not the prerogative of any 'race' in particular. Never has been; never will be.

What you have done is generalize from one story, one investigation. Using your logic, I could extrapolate that 6 out of 10 husbands commit rape. You just ain't makin' too much sense to me. Also, I don't deem Nick Grifin to be an authority on much of anything.

BM


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 02:55 PM

The BNP used a convicted rapist to canvass door to door for votes. Convicted of his part in two gang rapes. He was white. David knows this.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 02:56 PM

No, David, I am not saying the 'grooming' is not happening. I AM saying that using that as a basis for hating all Asisns is infantile.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,1947
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 02:59 PM

From brucies link: "The most common rapists are current and ex-husbands or partners."

David, why don't you target current and ex-husbands or partners" instead of trying to make this a racial issue?


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 03:02 PM

"There's Oldham BNP's one-time leafleting organiser Robert Bennett. Convicted gang rapist and armed robber. In total he has 37 convictions."

From this site.

Thanks for the heads-up, GUEST.

BM


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 03:03 PM

No Brucie, you are wrong, wrong and wrong. It is not about using this is a platform for hating, it is trying to get the message across to those in power who will not accept that this grooming is happening to act upon it.

Of course you can't hate an entire people on the basis of what a minority of that race is determined to do, but you can alert people to the danger facing them from that minority.

1947, i did not make this a racial issue, the asians did, hence the fact that all the authorities in Keighley, media, police and MP's ALL accept that it is ASIANS grooming WHITE girls. Or do you not call asians specifically targeting white girls for grooming racist?


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 03:04 PM

Last week the Sunday Mirror revealed that Robert Bennett, who is in charge of distributing BNP leaflets in the town, served five years for his part in the gang rape of two 17-year-olds. Fliers in Oldham are now throwing neo-Nazi language back at the BNP. Bennett was a 'sick' and 'evil' rapist of 'two young white women', one reads. 'The next time the BNP come knocking at your door just remember you might be staring into the eyes of brutal rapist Robert Bennett.'


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,Fight Rascism
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 03:07 PM

Ah Nick Griffin, he is currently serving 7 years at one of HM Prisons for spreading Rascial hate.
Let's look at Mr. Griffin then as he has brought up by DH in this Thread :




The British National Party leader, Nick Griffin, is a hardline fascist. Convicted for inciting race hate, he denies that the Holocaust ever took place and believes that Jews are conspiring against white British people.

Griffin is from a wealthy family with a history of far right involvement. His father, Edwin, took him to his first NF meeting when he was just 15. Griffin's mother is the administration secretary of the party and stood in the 2001 general election.

When Nick Griffin attended Cambridge University to study law his involvement in extremist politics grew. By 1978, he was the national organiser of the NF.

In 1980, Griffin launched Nationalism Today with the help of Joe Pearce, a convicted racist and editor of Bulldog. Nationalism Today became the springboard for the Third Positionist ideas that the NF later adopted. Through Nationalism Today Griffin and Pearce developed their idea that a "third way" was needed to replace the evils of both capitalism and communism. They felt both were Zionist controlled.

The Third Positionist wing of the NF saw the traditional style of fascist organising as pro-capitalist. Griffin wanted to create a political elite. Based on the blood and soil philosophy of Julius Evola, an Italian National Socialist, Griffin and the NF began to develop their Third Positionist ideas.

But it was also terrorists who were to prove a strong influence on Griffin's politics. Italian fascist, Roberto Fiore, had arrived in Britain with several others including people implicated in the bombing at Bologna railway station in 1980 in which 85 people.

Griffin and Fiore became close, with the Italian working for Griffin's tour company, Heritage Tours. Griffin's father remains Fiore's personal and business accountant.

Griffin's BNP may hate Islamic fundamentalists now. But this has not always been the case. After his faction took control of the NF, they began to make some strange alliances. They met with representatives of Colonel Gaddafi's regime through the Libyan People's Bureau in London, and expressed support for Iran's Ayatollah Khomeini.

Rank and File members of the NF were not too pleased when Griffin, in 1985, praised the black separatist Louis Farrakhan: "White nationalists everywhere wish (Farrakhan) well, for we share a common struggle for the same ends: Racial Separation and Racial Freedom".


Nick Griffin (left) in Libya

During this period, Griffin and other NF leaders took an all-expenses paid trip to Libya, as guests of the Gaddafi regime to obtain funding.

National Front News wrote at the time: "Common interest must be turned into practical cooperation. Those involved must work to nail the media lies which are used by our enemies to try and divide us and make us afraid to be seen standing side by side with Third Way nations such as Libya and Iran". Ironic that Griffin once allied himself so closely with Muslim countries that he now condemns as terrorist states. But political gymnastics have been constant throughout Griffin's life. His bizarre ideologies have changed like the wind.

In 1989, he left the NF and formed the International Third Position, a fanatically Catholic fascist group. The ITP campaigned against Coca Cola, McDonalds, urbanisation and "Zionism" His involvement did not last beyond a few years. In 1991, after a failed business venture, Griffin went his own way.

In 1995, Griffin joined the BNP. He began to edit The Rune, an anti-Semitic quarterly. He also announced that the BNP should prioritise denying the Holocaust to schoolchildren.

He earned a two-year suspended prison sentence for his sick views on the Holocaust. In 1998 he was found guilty of inciting race hatred at Harrow Crown Court for denying that the Holocaust ever took place.

But now Griffin tries to pretend the BNP is respectable. The ITP have also been baffled by Griffin's incoherence. It recently declared: "He has been a conservative, a revolutionary nationalist, a radical National Socialist, a Third Positionist, a friend of the 'boot boys' and the skinhead scene, a man committed to respectable politics and electioneering, a 'moderniser'. Which is he in reality? Perhaps he has been all these quite sincerely – in which case his judgement is abysmal; or perhaps he has been none of them sincerely – which speaks for itself!"

Griffin immediately had his sights upon leading the BNP. He became editor of Spearhead, the then BNP magazine, from 1996 until his split from former leader John Tyndall in 1999.

He yearned for a BNP that was reputable and modern. The label of Nazism tarnished the group's image, and Griffin wanted to copy the more intellectual far right parties on the continent. But though he spoke of the need for a community-based politics, his words in The Rune showed his real colours. "The electors of Millwall did not back a post-modernist Rightist Party, but what they perceived to be a strong, disciplined organisation with the ability to back up its slogan "Defend Rights for Whites' with well-directed boots and fists. When the crunch comes, power is the product of force and will, not of rational debate".


Excellent choice of character, Nick Griffin!! He would of course be able speak out unbiasedly with regards to any supposed Race related Crimes?
Nick Griffin,strange choice, not one I would have used myself to illustrate the topic and gain the BNP support but then there does not seem to be any point to DH's posts other than People being able to read inaccurate ramblings of a Rascist first hand.
Maybe DH's contributions are serving a much better purpose here in exposing the BNP for what it really is.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 03:07 PM

"Look, the authorities accept asian grooming of white girls is happening, its local MP accepts it is happening, the MEDIA accepts it is happening . . .".


"No Brucie, you are wrong, wrong and wrong. It is not about using this is a platform for hating, it is trying to get the message across to those in power who will not accept that this grooming is happening to act upon it."

David: Which is it?


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,VOTE BNP
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 03:08 PM

Oh yes, Bennett he who was revealed by his NI contributions as working for searchlight an anti bnp organisation. he was in the pay of searchlight you idiot


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: freda underhill
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 03:10 PM

We have had this argument in Australia. I work in an area that monitors these things. We have a very multicultural society here. There is no evidence here that men of any ethnic background rape women at a higher rate than any other.

now i'm going back to sleep.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 03:11 PM

Brucie, there is a world of difference between the authorities knowing about something and actually ACTING upon it.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 03:14 PM

Idiot!... That's pricelss. Talk about one finger pointing at someone and three finger pointing back at yourself vote bnp...lollololol
Don't bother posting anymore 'vote bnp'..it's just to funny whenever you do and takes away attention from the serious subjects under discussion.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 03:15 PM

"he was in the pay of searchlight you idiot"

And you are in the pay of who, you dickhead?


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 03:16 PM

BNP leader held in race hate probe
By Gideon Long

LONDON (Reuters) - Police have arrested the leader of the far-right British National Party after he was secretly filmed calling Islam "a wicked, vicious faith".

The arrest of Nick Griffin, one-time host of French National Front leader Jean-Marie Le Pen, was warmly welcomed by Muslims, some of whom said the government should ban the BNP altogether.

Police arrested Griffin, 45, at his family farmhouse in Wales and took him to West Yorkshire, where officers are conducting a major probe into the activities of BNP members.

Griffin, later released on bail until next March, told reporters on Tuesday: "This is an electoral scam to get the Muslim block vote back for the Labour Party."

Prime Minister Tony Blair's popularity plunged and his trust ratings plummeted after he took the country to war in Iraq.

Griffin's arrest came two days after police detained the party's 70-year-old founding chairman John Tyndall.

They have now arrested 12 people on suspicion of incitement to commit racial hatred since the investigation began five months ago. None has been charged.

The police probe was triggered by a BBC documentary, broadcast in July, which included footage of Griffin giving a speech in the northern town of Keighley in which he railed against Islam and its holy book, the Koran.

"This wicked, vicious faith has expanded through a handful of cranky lunatics about 1,300 years ago until it's now sweeping country after country," he said.

"BLOW UP MOSQUES"

Other footage in "The Secret Agent" documentary -- watched by some 4 million viewers -- shows another BNP member expressing a wish to blow up mosques with a rocket launcher and machine-gun worshippers with "about a million bullets."

Another member told how he put dog faeces through an Asian shop's letterbox, while a third described how he beat up a Muslim man. "I'm kicking away...it was fantastic," he said.

Muslims were jubilant at news of Griffin's arrest.

"At last!" said Massoud Shadjareh, chairman of the Islamic Human Rights Commission, which has long urged the government to outlaw the BNP. "This is extremely important."

"It should have been done long ago. There is no place in British society for the bigots of the BNP," he told Reuters.

The Muslim Council of Britain (MCB), the biggest lobby group for the country's 1.8 million Muslims, also welcomed the arrests, saying it hoped police would now press charges.

"The BNP has been trying to develop a more polished image and a more sophisticated discourse but the BBC documentary showed that behind that facade, the ugly reality is still the same," said MCB spokesman Inayat Bunglawala.

The party's anti-immigration stance has won it a handful of local council seats, mainly in poorer areas with large ethnic populations, but it remains on the fringe of politics.

It has nothing like the clout, for example, of the French far-right of Le Pen, who accepted an invite from Griffin to attend a BNP fund-raising dinner in northern England in April.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 03:22 PM

Kinda hard to argue with that, GUEST.

David, you said on a thread that you have a degree. At the time you mentioned that I was envious of that. Fact is, I also have a degree. Mine was 'with distinction'. FYI.

BM


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 04:19 PM

Anything rather than face the issue here eh people? The issue here is not my degree, which i think i mentioned, erm..god...must be ages back, does it really take you that long Bruce to actually think of a retort?

Seems to me Guest would rather post silly articles written by that dubious organisation run by Gerry the Burglar Gable, yes, thats right, Nick Griffin may be looking towards a conviction for standing up for free speech, but what you quote Guest comes right from the mouth of a convicted burglar!!!! haha. it's too funny!

The issue is Muslim intolerance. I have cited the racist grooming of white girls in Keighley, of which we are all agreed. Let us not claim all muslims are the same, it is indeed a minority, but that minority needs to be challenged by the law, but the law is currently backward and completely undeterminded to act!


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 04:23 PM

By the way, mine was not with distinction. doh


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 04:29 PM

"Anything rather than face the issue here eh people? The issue here is not my degree, which i think i mentioned, erm..god...must be ages back, does it really take you that long Bruce to actually think of a retort?"

No, David. It takes me that long to issue the retort in a polite manner. Having done that, up yers.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 04:42 PM

BTW, David, it seems that when people don't agree with you you say 'they are not addressing the issue'. The issue is racism. You come across as someone who supports racists. Why do you associate with people like that?


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,FIghting Rascism
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 04:55 PM

The LAW needs to turn it's full attention to Rascists like yourself David.
You brought up the questions of Education and Degrees...not Bruce Murdoch. You made your personal Life public and slurred another Member (one who you would know nothing about as they did not make their personal information available to you) What you have to understand is that everything you say on this Forum is Public.
You, however, as a newcomer, do not undersatnd that many of the people that post here are very well aware of each other's qualifications and opinions. The amount of very well educated, proffesional people here on the Mudcat is actually staggering.
All of whom have debated and discussed many issues here for Years.
You, however, are under the impression that you are revealing some unknown, awe, shock, horror details which to many of us are plain and simple Rascist hype. We have heard it before though our Jobs and in many other places. You are not telling us froma rascist persepctive that we haven't already heard before!
You may indeed, due to Party loyalty, deflect from Nick Griffin's crimes by shooting the messengers but it will not make the facts of his past, present and most likely future activities go away.
Several educated people have offered responses to your claims.
Instead of looking seriously at these responses you refuse to see beyond your mindset.
You seem to be assuming that Fact can be debated?
What you bring up in the Forum, regardless of when, will be read and then answered according to the feelings of the persons responding. There is no time limit on any particluar statement made on any post here.
You have somewhat changed your style of presenting the BNP's case since you posted in the Music section.
At least there you admitted that some people knew how to give a BNP supporter a hard time.
You haven't even seen a hard time yet down here in the lighter, funfilled BS section.
Your not welcome by many here but you are entitled to post if the Moderators have no objection to the content of your posts.
Do not however think that the past is prologue where Rascists are concerned.
Slur someone 25 posts back on a Thread here and just like heartburn it will return to you thrice fold.
Statistics and fact are very difficult to dispute unfortunately but you seem to be under the impression that if you keep saying No No,No these will go away...
Wrong.
There are a lot more sources available to answer your claims than Google can provide.
You, however, only have a limited amount of sources that support your Party's Rascist agenda. Hence your Party's need to use a Musical Forum's BS section to get your point out there. That is rather pathetic.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 04:56 PM

Fight Racism wrote:

"Ah Nick Griffin, he is currently serving 7 years at one of HM Prisons for spreading Rascial hate".

Ha, Nick Griffin is NOT serving 7 years at all in HM Prison? My god, try to keep up with the news mate.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 05:04 PM

Fighting racism.

Rather than make generalized comments about my posts, which in truth any one can do, why not actually refute my arguments, etc.

I mean, you even thought Nick griffin was currently in prison, i mean for godsake, get a grip on what is actually happening.

If you actually compare the number of posts on here, i.e mine versus others, you will see that more than anyone else involved in the debate, i have generally always been polite, with the exception of Brucie, (but c'mon, brucie loves it too really) and i have always tried to stick to the issue.

The issue been MUSLIM INTOLERANCE. As an example of intolerance, i have cited Keighley where it is accepted by all that mass asian grooming of young white girls is taking place? Or are you the only one who disputes that?


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,Fighting Rascism
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 05:32 PM

I have never been and NEVER will be your MATE...I wouldn't piss on you if you were on Fire.
Your agruments HAVE ALREADY been refuted.
Griffin isn't in Jail yet then..lol...well it's only a matter of time...let's not nitpick.

What you cite is RACISM...pure and simple.
You don't care about discussing MUSLIM INTOLERANCE. All you see this Thread as is a cheap way to push your Party's rhetoric. As I said pathetic really that this is your Party's way of getting it's message out there but hey any port a storm..lol

I am most certainly NOT aiding your Party to use this Forum and in particular this Thread as a Rascist SoapBox.

Get a grip on what is actually happening within your Party!



Deal with it or not....either way I couldn't give a Rat's arse,
matey..lol


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 06:06 PM

Poor fighting 'racism', rattled already. Now you really did sound like a shrieking girl.

Aside from your little tantrum, again, forget others, can YOU refute my arguments? Do you disagree that Keighley Asians are grooming white girls?


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 06:22 PM

"Do you disagree that Keighley Asians are grooming white girls?"

I don't disagree or agree because I honestly cannot unpack that statement. What do you mean by Asians? Thats a pretty broad brush you are using. What do you mean by white girls? If they are girls, where are their parents? Is there a law against grooming? Seems to me that parents should be on the look out for this so that their daughters do not become prey and possibly victims. Since when does the government act on something that is so vague. What do you expect them to do, lock up the white girls?


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 06:24 PM

"Now you really did sound like a shrieking girl". LOL...Girl yes, shrieking...no! I never shriek. I have a very low to medium toned voice. Mellow is the general opinion in reviews.

Rattled...please..don't flatter yourself, you lack that ability.

"can YOU refute my arguments"...yes I can actually but...

Again...boy oh boy, you don't READ to well do you! I am most certainly NOT aiding your Party to use this Forum and in particular this Thread as a Rascist SoapBox. Got it. Good.

Poor, no I am rather well off actually and grateful for it.

Ok Ill cut you a break. I won't post again and then ALL the other people that wish to respond to you can come in and get down to Business.

Time for bed as I am off on Holiday tomorrrow. So...I know you will miss me (who wouldn't..:>) but I am SURE there is someone else, maybe a real shrieking girl or Boy even, that will jump right in behind me so you don't get too lonely on this Thread.

Enjoy. Goodnight and don't let the Paranoia bite Mr. Hannam.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 06:38 PM

Click on individual pictures. It gives info about each.

I notice there are no women or people of colour. Interesting crew you have there, Dave.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 08:15 PM

Actually, brucie, there was one woman:

1997 - The Sunday Mirror photographed several far right activists attending a Ku Klux Klan meeting at her East London flat.
1997-1999 - leading member of the National Front and for some time its East London organiser.
2000 - Was refused entry to a BNP rally in Milton Keynes because of her KKK past. Within the year she was once again active in the BNP.

I don't blame you for not recognizing her as a woman.

I hope the government prosecutes all of them for spreading hate.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 08:18 PM

Thanks, GUEST. All I looked at was the small pictures and my eyesight is the pits without glasses on.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 04:55 AM

Guest Wrote:

"I don't disagree or agree because I honestly cannot unpack that statement. What do you mean by Asians? Thats a pretty broad brush you are using. What do you mean by white girls?"

Jeez, i mean by Asians as in ASIANS who are the pre-dominant ones grooming young white girls in Keighley, i.e asians second, third generation offspring from original asians from pakistan!

What do i mean by what girls? Are you completely stupid, what do you want? shades of pale?

Guest wrote:"If they are girls, where are their parents? Is there a law against grooming?"

Where are their parents? Their parents are elswhere whilst outside Keighley schools asians wait outside in cars to groom young girls! Or are you blaming parents for asians waiting outside school gates? You seem a very hateful person if that is what you are suggesting?

Guest Wrote:"Seems to me that parents should be on the look out for this so that their daughters do not become prey and possibly victims. Since when does the government act on something that is so vague. What do you expect them to do, lock up the white girls?"

No i expect them to lock up the aggressors, why would they lock up the victim???? I don't know where you are from, but you seem to be confused about how the system is supposed to work, protect the victim, punish the guilty, that is how it works! Vague? What is vague about a situation the police, media and local mp all accept is happening??????

You seem very determinded to blame the parents of the victims for this grooming? Personally i think that is a little sick, here we have young girls who have often been lured into drug addiction and sexual abuse and you want to blame the parents?


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 05:21 AM

The police investigation into grooming has resulted in one conviction and eight people, white and Asian, being charged with offences ranging from rape to indecent assault.

Colin Cramphorn, the chief constable, said white and Asian men had been arrested following a two-year investigation and the matter was one of child protection which had nothing to do with race, despite the claims of the far right.
But last night .


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 07:27 AM

Yes Guest, of course the police are MORE than eager to accuse the asian community of racist grooming in West Yorkshire at the moment? The police battered by the bludgeon of 'institutional racism' dare not even act on this issue.

Clive White, Telegraph and Argus (Bradford, England), Feb. 26

A 32-year-old man picked up as part of a police probe into teenage girls being groomed for sex by Asian men was starting a two-and-a-half year jail sentence today.

Father-of-three Shabir Ahmed admitted at Bradford Crown Court to plying a 13-year-old Keighley girl with alcohol and indecently assaulting her on moorland.

Garage owner Ahmed, of Belgrave Road, Keighley, has been placed on the Sex Offenders' register for life.

Operation Parsonage, which ran for more than a year, has now closed down and he is the last to face the courts as part of the operation.

In all, ten people were charged with offences ranging from rape to intimidation of witnesses.

The parents of the teenager, who cannot be identified for legal reasons, say they have still not been able to return to work because of the stress and expected the sentence to be tougher.

"After what we have been through—the torment and heartache—it doesn't seem enough," said her 42-year-old father.

Her 36-year-old mother said she feared her daughter might never recover from her ordeal.

"It was a terrible experience. She now has to carry that for the rest of her life. She will never recover properly."

Both say they still recall the horror of seeing their daughter arrive home on the night of the attack in a terrible state.

The court heard yesterday how the teenager, described as vulnerable at the time of the assault in November 2003, returned home half-undressed, with love bites on her and unable to remember what had happened.

Judge Linda Sutcliffe said the girl may have thought she had been raped. She said: "The uncertainty that she found herself in as to what had gone on must have been chilling."

Prosecutor John Worrall said: "The complainant herself is not able to recall anything about the actual assault.

"Her recollection is only as to what happened before the assault itself."

She said she saw Ahmed on Sunny Mount, Keighley, at about 9pm and he invited her into the car.

He bought drink, including a small bottle of vodka, at an off-licence on the way to Riddlesden and then stopped on the moors.

She remembered drinking some vodka and coke, but after leaving the car to go to the toilet she fell and banged her head.

When she returned to the car some of her clothing was removed and Ahmed then indecently assaulted her.

After forensic tests on her clothing, Ahmed was arrested in February last year. He had a previous conviction for assaulting a prostitute.

He claimed the girl had told him she was 16 and at first denied that anything untoward had happened.

Barrister Tahir Khan, for Ahmed, said he maintained that the girl never said she was 13, but he now accepted he must have realised she was a young person.

He said: "The incident occurred at a time when his relationship with his wife had broken down. This is not, in my submission, a man who habitually preys on young girls. This was an isolated occasion".

After imposing the jail sentence, Judge Sutcliffe told Ahmed that he would also have to register as a sex offender with the police for the rest of his life and would also be subject to a period of licenced supervision following his release.

A police spokesman said:"The Parsonage operation investigated claims about older Asian men targeting vulnerable white girls.

"The inquiry had resulted in ten people—nine men and a woman—being charged with offences ranging from rape and indecent assault to witness intimidation."

The special operation had now closed but detectives would still be investigating any other alleged offences relating to young girls being targeted.

And a number of cases of a "Parsonage-type" nature were now being dealt with.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 07:31 AM

The police investigation into grooming has resulted in one conviction and eight people, white and Asian, being charged with offences ranging from rape to indecent assault.

Colin Cramphorn, the chief constable, said white and Asian men had been arrested following a two-year investigation and the matter was one of child protection which had nothing to do with race, despite the claims of the far right.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 07:34 AM

Erm...yeah, do you want to post this a 3rd time? Or is this as constructive as you get?


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 07:51 AM

David you were previously relieved of your duties as Hull organiser of the BNP due to you stealing the funds. The leadership never wanted you reinstated. They did so to appease their scum membership.

What did you spend the cash on? Why did you steal from your members? Is your girlfriend still the treasurer?


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 08:01 AM

lmao, oh my god, mate, i take it you have read Dr David Michaels ridiculous jew rant and surmised my guilt?

It is actually against party rules to have a couple as organiser and fund holder, lol, no i was never a fund holder, neither my girlfriend.

Have you started listening to that nazi's rants have you? Intersting source you have there! Why don't you actually post the full letter of lies and show him up for what he really is, an old nazi crank.

C'mon, give me some credit, if you are going to attack me, and not bother answer my points, presumably because you can't, then actually give me something remotely based around fact or truth.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 10:18 AM

"ridiculous jew rant"

THAT SAYS IT ALL, DAVID.

Little slip there? LOLOLOL


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Alba
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 10:37 AM

Hey Bruce, "ridiculous Jewish rant"...AND this ridiculos Jewish rant eas made by "an old nazi crank"...
Indeed that says it all. An old Jewish Nazi crank....pricelss.

ROFLMAO


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 11:15 AM

It doesn't take much for him to lose it does it?


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: DavidHannam
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 11:53 AM

lol, you all seem to not get the point to my message. He was ranting about jews in this letter, hence a 'jew rant'.

Hence, i called him a nazi crank! You get? Maybe many of you are not aware, but nazi's tend to rant about jews, hence that is why they are cranks?

Poor children, must everything be explained?


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 11:55 AM

In the vernacular, "You pooched it, Dave."


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: DavidHannam
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 11:56 AM

C'mon Guest, can't you muster the brains to reply to my below email i posted? Or are you struggling?





Guest Wrote:

"I don't disagree or agree because I honestly cannot unpack that statement. What do you mean by Asians? Thats a pretty broad brush you are using. What do you mean by white girls?"

Jeez, i mean by Asians as in ASIANS who are the pre-dominant ones grooming young white girls in Keighley, i.e asians second, third generation offspring from original asians from pakistan!

What do i mean by what girls? Are you completely stupid, what do you want? shades of pale?

Guest wrote:"If they are girls, where are their parents? Is there a law against grooming?"

Where are their parents? Their parents are elswhere whilst outside Keighley schools asians wait outside in cars to groom young girls! Or are you blaming parents for asians waiting outside school gates? You seem a very hateful person if that is what you are suggesting?

Guest Wrote:"Seems to me that parents should be on the look out for this so that their daughters do not become prey and possibly victims. Since when does the government act on something that is so vague. What do you expect them to do, lock up the white girls?"

No i expect them to lock up the aggressors, why would they lock up the victim???? I don't know where you are from, but you seem to be confused about how the system is supposed to work, protect the victim, punish the guilty, that is how it works! Vague? What is vague about a situation the police, media and local mp all accept is happening??????

You seem very determinded to blame the parents of the victims for this grooming? Personally i think that is a little sick, here we have young girls who have often been lured into drug addiction and sexual abuse and you want to blame the parents?


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: DavidHannam
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 11:58 AM

Brucie, you seem to be struggling. hahaha


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: DavidHannam
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 12:06 PM

I suppose in truth, this is part of the problem. Without wanting to digress too much from the main issue here, i.e muslim intolerance, which i have highlighted in the case of Keighley where young asians are grooming young white girls into drugs and often prostitution, the problem is, well, for one, no-one seems able, either through mental inability to actually challenge my points, questions etc, and to disguise that fact some resort to what can only be called infantile 'name-calling', hence nazi, fascist etc.

The tragedy is like most decent thinking people, we all hate nazi's, that is not the discussion. I hate Nazi's because for one, my granfather and other relatives fought against that tyranny, and two, if Hitler woul d have had his way my neice would have been in a concentration camp.

Returning to the issue, i don't think we should be targeting any ONE group which displays intolerance to another group, i believe we should be targeting all groups that display intolerance. Many people happily attack white people for intolerance, and where that intolerance takes place, by all means attack it, of course, but we also need to attack intolerance displayed by other groups, or else feelings fester on both groups, one feels it is not equal to the other in treatment. We should not be afraid to critisize any group for fear of a bashing over the head with the 'you are racist' stick.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 12:29 PM

"The tragedy is like most decent thinking people, we all hate nazi's, that is not the discussion. I hate Nazi's because for one, my granfather and other relatives fought against that tyranny, and two, if Hitler woul d have had his way my neice would have been in a concentration camp."

Have you no shame..? sorry trick question....obviously you don't because in one paragraph you are quoting Nock Griffin a known Nazi that leads the Politcial Party that you Organise and when it suits you change tack and use a family members as a tactic, bloody hell is there nothing you would stoop to!
Tell you what you, you are one mixed up Rascist.
I was going to come and give you hand to dig a hole but you Know what...your doing fine all by yourself you plonker.

Nobody,literally Nobody here gives a toss about what you think...but your struggling with that aren't you lolololol
You realy are embarassing yourself on here now. Not that I don't enjoy that but the humanitarian in me is urging me to let you know.
Sod it David, read your posts back to yourself...your disappearing up your own arse mate.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 01:49 PM

Shame? What, shame that my grandfather fought against nazism? Why, do you have a problem with that? I certainly don't. Can you answer? I don't suppose you will?

Of course i am struggling at times, on the other hand i am happily recieving enough PM's of support, including a new member who is joining and getting involved in the BNP's folk music project. On the other thread i was involved i have been personally invited to sing at a hull folk club :-)

As for the actual debate here, i have made my stance clear, i.e asians grooming white girls into drugs and prostitution is simply unacceptable.

Look, would you rather me hate people? It seems you are more offended that i DONT hate people? What, do i not fit in with your stereotypical image of someone patriotic?

Stop embarrasing yourself. Also, i have never quoted Nick Griffin! I don't know if you are the same person, as you hide sadly behind GUEST, but if you are the same person who thought Nick Griffin was already in prison, i suggest you get your facts right, and try to at least keep up with current issues.

Again, you snipe, but facts are facts, many Keighley young girls are subjected to grooming by asians, (albeit a minority of asians) and until that is combatted there will be a problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 02:23 PM

The police investigation into grooming has resulted in one conviction and eight people, white and Asian, being charged with offences ranging from rape to indecent assault.

Colin Cramphorn, the chief constable, said white and Asian men had been arrested following a two-year investigation and the matter was one of child protection which had nothing to do with race, despite the claims of the far right.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 02:37 PM

"Returning to the issue, i don't think we should be targeting any ONE group which displays intolerance to another group, i believe we should be targeting all groups that display intolerance."

I agree, David. That statement has us on the same side of the issue for the FIRST time.

But then, that's why the BNP is being targeted here. It displays intolerance. So why do you belong to them?


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: jpk
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 05:00 PM

try this on for size,one great way for hard core muslim extremest to reduce copetition for the avalible nuber of wivies/aka slaves,is to convince the weak willed mebers around them to carry out there suicide warfare[vast majority of bombers being male]it reduces the number of competores for the supply of females.                      the same thing appers to be taking place here in the u.s. with a relgious [flds] spliter group from the mormon church[more rel. fanatics]centered around grant utah i think[have to go back and look it up]not near as drastic as the muslim fanatic[only brainwashed exile] but all to the same ends.power begats corruption,this set of cases nothing more than weak men lording over women through fear being the end goal weather we realize it and admit it or not


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 10:54 PM

David - You have a very narrow perspective on the world.

Grooming is a crime that takes place worldwide. It is not the specific domain of any single group of people. In Vancouver, it is has been found that the girls that are targetted are the most vulnerable for a variety of reasons. Often they are from single parent families or impoverished families.

I know for a fact that a 14 year old Iranian, girl in Germany was "seeing" a young German that was 22. When her family found out, she was put under "house arrest" by her grandmother. Her uncles walk her to and from school daily. It wasn't about race or religion, it was about the age difference.

Since when were people from Pakistan called Asians? I thought Asians were this sort of huge group of people from China. I know that the people in Vancouver do not like to be referred to as Asians. They prefer to be called Vietnamese, Chinese, Japanese, Balinese, etc. Why don't you call the men from Pakistan, Pakistanis?


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 04:27 AM

Grooming is of course a crime that takes place worldwide, however, we have enough problems here in the UK, and these close to home problems, been close, they can be tackled. It is not in my,or many of us, remit to actually do something about grooming taking place in the Far-East, but it is within our scope to act upon something on our doorstep.

SO it is not narrow, it is just realistic, people have an interest in this nation, it is the nation we pay tax so we believe it would further and better this country, clearly that does not happen.

You cite the example the 14 year old Iranian girl who was 'seeing' a young german. Yes, it's one of those examples, i mean, i disagree completely with a 14 year old girl seeing a German 22. It is a disgrace. ANother instance of perverts running amok.

The reason i refer to Asians in Keighley as Asians, is because to call them Pakistanis is untrue. They are not from Pakistan, they are from the UK, they are born in the UK. I am of course reffering to second, third generation UK born. The asians grooming young girls in Keighley are born in the country. First generation pakistanis, from my experience deplore the way their children behave, westernized to the extent they have no roots, and when it comes to drug dealing, the elders condemn this fully.

I think it is a bit hasty to claim to know what ethnics 'prefer' to be called. I also think it is irrelvant, as i'm not going to tiptoe on cobbled stones in order not to offend. Unless someone was calling someone a vicious name of abuse then i would speak out, but aside from that, it is irrelvant.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 02:36 PM

You have not yet addressed the question of why so many of the BNP have criminal records--some to do with rape, robbery and hate crimes. Tell us about that, David.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 04:41 PM

Brucie, i have answered questions again and again on the convictions, some real some not, of bnp members in this thread and on the previous thread. As for criminal convictions, i could also ask a few on here who have refused to answer MY QUESTION about why they quote searchlight editor gerry gable, a man convicted of robbery as a reliable source of information on the BNP? Will they ever answer the same question you have asked me, and of which i have answered in the past.

You are not fooling anyone by trying to dodge the the issue at hand, which is muslim intolerance. To be quite honest, i think this thread is running its course, albeit it is with me anyway. lol.

Most of us agree that intolerance, from whatever background should be challenged, and most of us agree, in regard to the subject, i.e muslim intolerance, that it is only a MINORITY of muslims who purport the more extreme sentiments, and most of us agree that Keighley is seeing a racist network of Muslims grooming young white girls into drugs and prostitution, hence the local Labour MP Ann Cryer citing it as an 'asian problem'.

I don't actually agree that it is an asian problem because i think to call it an asian problem is generalizing and demonizing a whole people in one go.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 04:43 PM

Also, i asked YOU questions many posts ago, here they are again? Fair is fair, it can't all be one way. lol

A few questions for you.

1) Do you think most muslim fathers support mixed relationships?

2) if there was a referendum on having a multi-cultural state, do you think it would be a yes or no vote.

3) Do you believe anti-white racist attacks occur in the UK? If so, can you please name me one?

4) Are you able to answer the points raised in the post i posted sometime back above? Or are you unable?

5) How many BNP members have you met?

6) The letter you posted from BNP to John Tyndall banning him from speaking. We stopped him speaking, and he has also now expelled. What did you want us to do? Keep him in? The guy is an old nazi, so we expelled him! Do you have a problem with that?


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 04:51 PM

bnp nazi links.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 05:17 PM

Still can't answer any questions GUEST! lolol.

Here are a few facts about searchlight for you too. :-)

Gable is a convicted burglar. His staff writer Manny Carpel did time for arson, and has a number of convictions for sickening violence too.

DAVE ROBERTS Editorial board member of Searchlight magazine and criminal

Roberts joined the editorial board of Searchlight magazine in 1974 and infiltrated political organisations for Searchlight throughout the mid 1970's. Infiltrating some lunatic fringe organisations led him to being convicted at Birmingham Crown Court of conspiring with others to burn down an Asian restaurant. He was only given a suspended sentence, which he later served as a result of a criminal conviction. Despite such events, Roberts continued to work for Searchlight for some years.

MICHAEL COHEN (Searchlight photographer, shareholder in Searchlight

Publishing Ltd and criminal. Involved & found guilty of the 1963 burglary alongside Gable and Roberts. He also pleaded guilty to the W.H. Jonesbreak-in with Carpel.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 06:10 PM

I have no broadcastable opinion on this subject - I just wanted to get post 300!!

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 06:35 PM

Congratulations Liz The Squeak :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: jpk
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 06:55 PM

you mention hate crimes;are not most vicious crimes,hate crimes, and here in the us. it is far easier to make a crime to be race motivative, if it is white[sic] on black[or any other so called minority],than if it is the other way around;or is this more of the price for embracing diversity[is it one more way to divide us into ever smaller easer controled groups],[seems so to me,they say we have to accept diversity(make more divisive,divide,seperate,spread out,split up).are they setting us up for stalins last laugh,to defeat us from within,think of the old military stratigim of divide and conquer,is it working here. hmmmm could be maybe so,weather planned or not hmmmm!


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: jpk
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 06:56 PM

ps have a nice day an god bless all


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,Interested
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 07:45 AM

http://www.panthic.org/news/124/ARTICLE/1516/2005-07-10.html?sid=b593fe491022386a1e6e6c61549ff4ef

Muslims Sentenced For Religion Bias Killing
Sunday 10th July, 2005
Fauja Singh - Panthic Weekly Staff

London, UK (KP) - Two Muslim men were jailed for life for killing of an innocent Sikh man wrongly targeted because they did not like relationship between another Sikh man and a Muslim women.

Major Singh Gill was murdered in cold blood at his shop in the West Midlands, after being attacked by six Muslims. This week his to murderers received prison sentences. Shimraz Kahn, 35, got a minimum of 18 years Waheed Akhtar, 22, was given 15 years.

Stafford Crown Court heard how Mr Gill was killed by the two Muslim men, Shimraz Kahn and Waheed Akhtar, who believed Mr Gill's son to be having a relationship with a young Muslim woman.

Two others were found not guilty. It is believed two other suspects fled to Pakistan. The court heard how Mr Gill, 45, a Sikh and father of three was attacked in his shop in West Bromwich by six men. Mr Gill, of Duke Street, Wednesfield, died in the hospital of head injuries sustained during the attack at his Cost Cutter shop on Pemberton Road.

Prosecutor Anthony Barker, QC said Mr Gill was the victim of a deliberate and planned killing. He described how this was a planned attack on this innocent Sikh business man. "Some men had clubs, iron bars and hockey sticks and inside his shop the shopkeeper was clubbed to death," he said. "Yet the people who killed him had set out to kill someone else. They killed a perfectly innocent man who had done absolutely nothing."

He said the story behind the killing was complicated but involved the relationship of a Sikh man and a Muslim woman. It is thought that the groups of Muslim men did not like the fact a Sikh man having a relationship with a Muslim woman secretly for over a year.

Mr Akhtar, of Essex Street, Walsall, who was given 15 years, had claimed he was sitting in a van outside the store when the attack happened. Mr Kahn gave his address as Bloxwich Road, Walsall.

Two other accused, Fiaz Ali, 30, of Croft Street, Walsall and Raja Hussain, 24, of Bloxwich Road, Walsall were cleared of the attack.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 07:51 AM

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2092-1687681,00.html

The hate
Who planted the London bombs? Experts believe a new generation of angry young British Muslims has spawned its own terrorists. David Leppard and Nick Fielding report

Early last year, as Tony Blair struggled through the long and bitter political aftermath of the Iraq war, yet another bit of disturbing news turned up in his red boxes. A discussion paper prepared by senior civil servants, it raised a subject that last week came back to haunt him.

"The home secretary and the foreign secretary," he read, "have commissioned [this] paper for the prime minister on how to prevent British Muslims, especially young Muslims, from becoming attracted to extremist movements and terrorist activity."

The 36-page paper was littered with misspellings, bad grammar and the egregious waffle that the civil service has learnt from new Labour — "We have a 10-point action plan on engaging with ethnic minorities" — but it dealt presciently with the home-grown terrorism that the police and MI5 believe lies behind last Thursday's bomb outrages in London.

Focusing on young Muslims "who were either born in the UK or who have significant ties to it rather than those who have acquired British nationality more recently", the paper spelt out the disillusionment that might turn a Muslim loner into a bomber.

The prime minister read: "Often disaffected lone individuals unable to fit into their community will be attracted to university clubs based on ethnicity or religion, or be drawn to mosques or preaching groups in prison through a sense of disillusionment with their current existence."

The paper continued: "Policy should have two main aims: (a) to isolate extremists within the Muslim community, and . . . (b) to help young Muslims from becoming ensnared or bullied into participation in terrorist or extremist activity."

This was Whitehall's long-term counter-terrorist strategy codenamed Project Contest. As a strategy it can hardly be qualified as a success after last week's outrages, but it certainly identified the problem.

Intelligence experts and Islamic leaders agree that Thursday July 7 marks the bloody emergence of home-grown Islamic terrorism in Britain rather than the arrival of Al-Qaeda's bombers on these shores. The favourite hypothesis of investigators is that the bomb teams comprised a cell of some eight or nine young British Muslims, led by a foreign-born "talisman" figure who controlled and directed them.

"This is a very worrying situation," said M J Gohel, head of the London-based Asia Pacific Foundation which monitors Islamic terrorism. "We're looking at a new generation of terrorists — people who are not directly linked to Osama Bin Laden or Al-Qaeda so they can slip under the net of the security services. These are people born or brought up in western Europe, so they fit in but are infected by Bin Laden's ideology."

His view was echoed by a former radical who sometimes leads prayers at the Finsbury Park mosque in north London where Abu Hamza, the blind hook-armed cleric, used to preach.

"There is a growing phenomenon of angry young Muslims in Britain," said this man, who wished to remain anonymous. "I get many young people who watch Al-Jazeera or Al-Arabiya [the satellite TV channels] coming to me after Friday prayers saying they have seen the atrocities at Abu Ghraib or the defacing of Korans at Guantanamo and what should they do.

"I tell them to study, take care of their own lives, that if they are angry with George Bush or Tony Blair there is no point killing innocent people in Oxford Street. But there may be many more going to crazy people who tell them to take matters into their own hands. There is an absolute majority among Muslims who share the anti-US sentiment of Al-Qaeda and it is easy to harness that."

Who are these young British terrorists and why do they readily fall under the influence of "crazy people"? How are they recruited? How do they operate? What have the police and MI5 done to try to catch them? And are the non-violent majority of Muslim religious activists in Britain the real key to defeating them?

IN THE aftermath of September 11, 2001, British intelligence analysts warned ministers about a new breed of terrorist recruit.

Increasingly, hundreds of young Muslim men, most of them British born, were being drawn to the cause of fundamentalism. Radical websites and imams in mosques in London, Luton, Birmingham, Bradford and Manchester were preaching holy war to disaffected young Muslims who were looking for a purpose.

Unlike the September 11 hijackers, the new terrorists did not have a rigid leadership structure. The majority of them had no criminal record and did not appear on any intelligence data bases linking them to terrorism. They were, in effect, "clean skins" and they were much more difficult to detect.

To counteract this danger, Project Contest was born in Whitehall. Its purpose was set out by Sir Andrew Turnbull, the cabinet secretary, in a letter to permanent secretaries at key government departments in April last year. He wrote: "The aim is to prevent terrorism by tackling its causes . . . to diminish support for terrorists by influencing social and economic issues."

Referring to the role played in this by radical preachers such as Abu Qatada (also known as Abu Omar), Turnbull explained: "Al-Qaeda and its offshoots provide a dramatic pole of attraction for the most disaffected."

Of particular concern was that the Islamist terrorist recruiters were targeting the poor and the jobless. An official audit provided to the Project Contest working committee showed that Muslims were three times more likely to be unemployed than the population as a whole.

Surveillance of the Muslim community by MI5 and Special Branch found that extremist groups were also operating within universities to recruit middle-class students. A small group of postgraduates at Imperial College and others at Brunel University in west London were of particular concern.

The paper prepared for the prime minister spelt out the breadth of the problem: "By extremism, we mean advocating or supporting views such as support for terrorist attacks against British or western targets, including the 9/11 attacks, or for British Muslims fighting against British and allied forces abroad, arguing that it is not possible to be Muslim and British, calling on Muslims to reject engagement with British society and politics, and advocating the creation of an Islamic state in Britain."

It stated that "a small number of young British Muslims are known to have committed or participated in terrorism abroad . . . a number of extremist groups operate in the UK and seek to recruit young Muslims . . . and an increasing number of British Muslims, often young, have needed UK consular services after being detained on suspicion of terrorist or extremist activity in other parts of the world (eg Yemen, Egypt and the US)".

The paper cited an intelligence estimate that the number of British Muslims engaged in terrorist activity, whether at home or abroad, or supporting it, was "less than 1%" of the UK's Muslim population of 1.6m. But that suggests that up to 16,000 may be involved — a numbing figure.

It went on to explain why these thousands of potential terrorists remain below the security radar: "Whilst many have grown up in Muslim households, a significant number come from liberal, non- religious Muslim backgrounds or only converted to Islam in adulthood. These converts include white British nationals and those of West Indian extraction.

"By and large most young extremists fall into one of two groups: well educated — undergraduates or with degrees and technical professional qualifications in engineering or IT — or under-achievers with few or no qualifications and often a criminal background.

"The former group is often targeted by extremist recruiters circulating among university-based religious or ethnic societies. Among the latter group some are drawn to mosques where they may be targeted by extremist preachers; others are radicalised or converted while in prison.

"However, a significant number of young radicalised British Muslims have been recruited through a single contact, often by chance, outside either of these environments. Such individuals are encouraged to maintain a low profile for operational purposes and do not develop the network of associates or political doctrines common to many other extremist Islamists."

One former radical insisted last week that recruitment is no longer taking place in mosques or Islamic organisations — which are now largely under the control of "moderates" — but in pubs, discos and casinos.

The exporting of home-grown jihadis — and their fanaticism — was confirmed in Iraq last month by a senior insurgent commander, "Abu Ahmad", who revealed that about 70 volunteers had arrived from Britain. Two had been killed fighting alongside him against American troops.

One of these, a 22-year-old known as Abu Hareth, had been born in Britain of Iraqi parents. He was killed in fighting in Falluja in April last year.

"When the battle intensified and due to his lack of military experience I asked him to take shelter in a basement. He refused my advice and told me off for asking him to hide and he said, 'I will hold this against you when the day of reckoning comes for you tried to prevent me from attaining martyrdom'," Abu Ahmad said.

Two brothers — Ammar, 22, and Yasser, 18 — arrived in Iraq from Britain after the fall of Baghdad in April 2003: "They could not wait to go out and fight and kept on asking when they will go into battle."

After about a month, Ammar was killed fighting American troops: "His younger brother Yasser, who witnessed Ammar's death, surprised us by shedding tears of joy and praising Allah for his brother's martyrdom."

The commander continued: "When we returned to our base we asked Yasser to return home, telling him it was enough that his family had lost one son; it would not be right if the second son was also killed and that there were others who would fight on his behalf here.

"But he refused and told us: 'What would I tell my mother? She will not accept me in the house for when she bid us farewell she told us either to return victorious or to achieve martyrdom. I cannot return. I have to finish off what Ammar my brother started here, and anyway I do not want to leave my brother all alone in this land. I want to be buried with him'. And he began to cry."

Abu Ahmad said that having been ordered home, Yasser wrote a letter revealing that when he had arrived in Britain his mother had celebrated on hearing about Ammar's death — "ululating with happiness and calling her friends and relatives to tell them the good news. She distributed sweets and juices in celebration to all those that came to pay their respect".

BRITISH politicians, civil servants and counter-terrorism specialists have been trying to tackle this fanaticism through a mixture of hearts-and-minds projects and increased policing.

Project Contest has led to new laws to curb the immigration of radical imams to Britain and to the controversial proposals, now before parliament, to outlaw incitement to religious hatred. Other initiatives included more government funding for moderate Islamic newspapers, television and radio stations. Measures to create "Muslim friendly" workplaces with more prayer rooms were proposed as well as special mortgages that would enable Muslims, barred by the religion from paying interest, to buy their own council houses.

At the same time, more resources have been allocated to detecting and preventing terrorist attacks. The sheer size of the pool of potential recruits has presented the police and MI5 with an enormous challenge, however.

After the September 11 attacks it quickly became apparent that the intelligence services were woefully understaffed. Eliza Manningham-Buller, who was made director-general of MI5 in October 2002, ran a successful Whitehall lobbying campaign to win funds for another 1,000 officers, a 50% increase in MI5's staffing.

The Metropolitan police special branch SO12, which carries out covert security operations against terrorism, also underwent a rapid expansion, increasing its staffing to more than 800 officers.

In the aftermath of the attacks on America there was, in the words of one senior police officer last week, "a huge intelligence gap". But in the past three years, he added, that gap had closed significantly as the understanding grew of how Al-Qaeda operated. By the beginning of this year there were some 2,500 Special Branch officers spread across England and Wales, with more than 700 in Scotland.

Since September 11 there have been more than 700 arrests of terrorist suspects. Critics of the stepped-up security point out that there have been only 17 convictions — and just three of these were linked to Al-Qaeda related activity.

That, critics said, suggested an over-reaction by the authorities. But insiders say that the figures reflected a deliberate policy. In the past, counter-terrorist operations against the IRA's bombing campaigns would see suspects being followed for months before sufficient evidence was gathered to arrest them.

The IRA had a relatively small number of known operatives whose movements were relatively easy to track. But Al-Qaeda and its affiliates posed an unspecified, mostly unknown and little understood threat of a catastrophic attack in which thousands of people might be killed.

In those circumstances it was decided that no risks would be taken: policing was designed to disrupt and destabilise terrorist activity before it could result in the loss of lives. That meant arresting people as soon as they became known as terrorist suspects. The priority was not gathering evidence for any future court case but protecting the country from attack.

Recently, senior police and intelligence officials became confident that they had "broken the back" of the Al-Qaeda threat to Britain. With the apparent closing of the "intelligence gap", a more relaxed mood of confidence began to percolate throughout the intelligence community. Earlier this year the security services began to talk about reverting to the old IRA policy of letting suspects run before launching raids to arrest them.

At the same time as this new arrest policy gained ascendancy in Whitehall security circles, analysts began to observe a change in the type of suspect being arrested from foreign-born to British. Trials at the Old Bailey next year will reveal that the majority of the defendants are British citizens.

The vast majority of suspects now on MI5's watch list have no previous involvement with terrorism. And not being watched at all are the army of "clean skins" or "lily-whites" whose existence is suspected by the authorities but who are still unidentified. It is these invisible young men who may have formed the backbone of the terror cell that struck the heart of London on Thursday morning.

There are various reasons for believing that they were not Al-Qaeda operatives. Intelligence sources say that the organisation claiming responsibility after the attacks, the Secret Organisation of Al-Qaeda in Europe, has not previously shown up on their radar screens beyond one mention on a website when they were demanding the withdrawal of Bulgarian troops from Iraq.

According to one former associate of Bin Laden, the wording of their statement was unusual. "Their description of the Prophet and also referring to an Arabic nation was not part of the culture of Al-Qaeda," he said. "I think the attack was carried out by admirers of Bin Laden, not associates. He has become this kind of iconic hero to a lot of disgruntled people. They have probably never met him or anyone close to him."

Other sources pointed out that Al-Qaeda is now a loose umbrella organisation since the post-September ll crackdowns and many extremist groups are using the Al-Qaeda handle. "Everyone is flying in the air when they talk of Al-Qaeda," agreed one former member now living in London. "We can't say who is a leader, who is not, so there is an open window for anyone to claim they are."

THE ROOT of the problem in the eyes of many foreign security operatives remains London's reputation as a haven for extremists.

"It may not be the moment to say it," said a defence ministry official in Paris, "but London is paying for its mistakes, for allowing all those radical organisations from Saudis to Pakistanis to set up shop in London, put out newsletters, make recruits and gather funds to finance their activities."

Young men from Algeria and Morocco, including members of Islamist armed organisations, came to Britain in the early 1990s to escape persecution by the security forces in their home countries. They were granted asylum and some have since lived on welfare. Supporters of the Armed Islamic Group, known then as the GIA, used mosques such as Finsbury Park and Brixton, in south London, to raise funds to buy guns and bankroll a terror campaign that cost tens of thousands of lives in Algeria. They engaged in blackmail, drug dealing and credit card fraud to support their fundraising in London, Manchester and Birmingham.

In April 1994, after raids on GIA suspects in Paris, police found documents said to be "GIA communiqués" sanctioning the murder of Algerian police officers. Fax numbers were traced to London addresses in Southall, Mile End, Brixton, Finsbury Park and Richmond. A French investigating magistrate came to London to try to interview eight of those linked to the documents. But he was apparently blocked by the British authorities.

The French were so concerned about the role of the GIA and other groups in London that they authorised illegal spying operations against them in London — without telling the British.

Reda Hassaine, an Algerian journalist who came to Britain in the early 1990s, ended up working for MI5 and French intelligence, reporting on radicals inside the Muslim community. But Hassaine believes that despite huge efforts, the government and the security forces have been been far too complacent in dealing with the threat.

For more than a decade, Hassaine says, Britain has been a "soft touch" for Islamist radicals who used it as a fundraising and propaganda base to launch attacks in Algeria and elsewhere: "The groups here now are much more independent of each other. There are plenty of them and they've been here in London for a long time."

One former Algerian jihadi may hold the answer to the terrorist threat. When he was 24, Abdullah Anas reached a turning point in his life. A member of the Muslim Brotherhood and an imam, he had been brought up on stories of the long war for Algeria's independence from France. Now he decided it was his turn to take up the gun for a cause: in his case, jihad.

Anas travelled to Peshawar in Pakistan and then walked for 40 days to northern Afghanistan. He lost most of his toenails, but "I felt I was reborn when I first got there . . . Even though I was sick for 10 days, I was so happy to be walking along with my Kalashnikov and with my brothers".

He fought there for eight years, becoming close to Bin Laden. But he was eventually disillusioned. "I am proud God chose me to be part of that holy war. I went there prepared to become a martyr. But it was very sad for me to see that once they had liberated their own land, they were unable to build their country. It was a big lesson for me," he said last week.

"I realised that Muslims can win the battle, but can't stabilise afterwards and win the peace. I saw it with my own eyes. I saw the same in Algeria, where my father and grandfather fought for freedom from the French, but once we had it, it fell to pieces. The Muslim fighters know how to die, but not how to live."

Anas was among the wave of Algerians receiving asylum in Britain. He learnt English and now works as a company secretary and teaches Arabic and Koranic studies. The board of trustees running Finsbury Park mosque since the overthrow of its radical regime regularly invites him to preach to congregations of 1,000.

His message is both outspokenly Muslim and adamantly against violence. London is a safe haven for Muslims, he says: "In some ways London is the closest thing we can get to the society described by the Koran. God said, I created you as many nations, tribes and languages. That is what we have here. None of us should seek to impose our views or values on the other."

He says this way of relating to life in London, as set down by the Prophet, is not simply a choice: "It is an obligation. We are part of this society and I tell my congregations that this is why I want them to know what the Prophet himself did.

"Anyone targeting this society is my enemy. They are targeting me and my family as much as anyone else, no matter who they are."

He added: "Like many Muslims I am angered by what the Americans are doing in Iraq or the Israelis do in Palestine. But injustices must be dealt with by scholars and politicians, not by hotheads.

"These recruiters and terrorists, they are simply trying to use the anger of the young for their own agenda. Of course there is anger, but these criminals are trying to pervert it. I am not a hypocrite or an agent either of the United States or Bin Laden. This is my religion, what I believe in."

Additional reporting: Matthew Campbell, Hala Jaber, Christina Lamb, Robert Winnett

TURNIG FROM BRITAIN'S YOUTH CULTURE TO ISLAM'S CERTAINTIES

The biggest division among Britain's youth is no longer class, it's religion. For one group there is MSN, the X-box, T4, Jay-Z, Diamond White, Pot Noodles, Maybelline Great Lash mascara and sex. For the other there are five daily prayers, hijab, arranged marriages, a lifelong relationship with Allah and the spectres of honour killings and terrorism.

"We try not to separate ourselves," said Nirma Muslim, an 18-year-old Leicester schoolgirl. "But I have to admit that the majority of places me and my friends go are Islamic."

Is it that Muslim children have become more religious than their parents? Professor Akbar Ahmed, the world's leading authority on contemporary Islam, first noticed a shift towards militancy here in the 1980s. "The Muslim generation of the Sixties were more interested in making a name for themselves on the cricket field or in the literary field but now the equivalent generation want to make a name for themselves by going out and fighting a physical and violent jihad in the name of Islam."

Why? "Unlike American Muslims, British Muslims tend towards a much closer relationship with their motherlands and live in more detached communities. Because of globalisation, technology, and the media, they also have a sense of being a 'global Muslim'."

Zubair Patel, a 19-year-old Muslim of Indian descent studying for his A-levels at Regent sixth-form college in Leicester, thinks a generation of young men and women now of university age were shaped by 9/11.

"If you dressed like a Muslim at that time, people would hassle you in the street. It forced us to look for an identity and ask, 'Do I want to be in the mainstream or do I want to say I am Muslim?'" He started wearing the shalwar kameez (with a Burberry sweatshirt and a Prada beanie).

"I am not one of those Muslims who take part in the whole western thing, like drinking and drugs," he said. "Those people get portrayed as the moderate Muslims — like that's what you should be like if you're living in Britain."

"Some people get tempted to join in," said his friend Rabi Miah, 17. "But you have to look within yourself and decide that instead of a club you go out for dinner with your friends."

Zubair said: "I've been back to where my parents grew up in India and in their neighbourhood they had two mosques. Here we have four mosques on our street and an Islamic boarding school on the corner. They had two scholars, Leicester has 165. England has given us a greater chance to become more devout than our parents."

"It's sad in a sense, though," said Nirma. "Although we were born and brought up here, we are not experiencing Britain."

"But what's the alternative?" asked Zubair. "Going clubbing and getting high?" He confessed: "I'd like to find it within myself to go up to any non-Muslim on the street and say, 'This is who I am. Who are you? Lets have a chat'."

"It's harder to do than it sounds, though," said Rabi Miah.

As a child, Na'ima B Robert liked carol singing but never thought of herself as religious. "I was nominally feminist, and when I went on a trip to Egypt after a really wild summer before my second year of university I was bothered by the women in hijab. It was only when I asked one of them why she was covering up that it hit me. She said, 'I want to be judged for what I say and what I do — not what I look like'."

A year later Na'ima converted to Islam. A year after that she had guardians arrange a marriage. She felt liberated by her religion, and joined a growing number of Islamic feminists who feel hijab frees them from having to rely on beauty as their primary currency.

"Anyone who's ever smelt the reek of vomit on the side of the road can understand a little bit of the sense in the Koran," she said. "But more than that Islam answered the biggest question you have as a young person, 'Why are we here?'" Her friends and family were less pleased with her transformation. "My father was very upset. He felt like he would lose his daughter to Islam. Socially, my university friends and me were left with little in common. My religion is not something you do for two hours on a Friday. It's holistic and hard to sustain when you're not around people who help you."


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,jOhn
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 09:39 AM

Welcome to mudcat David.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Jul 05 - 11:05 PM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/linkset/2005/04/11/LI2005041100587.html


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Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,take Islam out of it.
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 01:05 PM

It is intolerance yes, but not MUSLIM intolerance. Islam doesn't preach its followers to murder every non-muslim man /man who is involved with a Muslim. It is people like the person who started this topic who are breading discontentment amongst us. Yes the perpetrators of this attack were Muslims but it is more to do with their cultural priorities before their religious beliefs.

Thanks,
K.M.


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