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BS: And the prisons shall be empty...

saulgoldie 02 Jun 05 - 01:40 PM
gnu 02 Jun 05 - 01:42 PM
Bunnahabhain 02 Jun 05 - 02:00 PM
GUEST 02 Jun 05 - 02:41 PM
just john 02 Jun 05 - 02:47 PM
frogprince 02 Jun 05 - 02:58 PM
Dave'sWife 02 Jun 05 - 03:06 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 02 Jun 05 - 03:06 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 02 Jun 05 - 03:10 PM
Once Famous 02 Jun 05 - 03:33 PM
mg 02 Jun 05 - 03:50 PM
Dave'sWife 02 Jun 05 - 03:55 PM
Once Famous 02 Jun 05 - 03:56 PM
GUEST 02 Jun 05 - 06:26 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 02 Jun 05 - 06:33 PM
Uncle_DaveO 02 Jun 05 - 06:35 PM
Bobert 02 Jun 05 - 06:54 PM
freda underhill 02 Jun 05 - 07:07 PM
Little Hawk 02 Jun 05 - 07:13 PM
The Fooles Troupe 02 Jun 05 - 07:48 PM
jaze 02 Jun 05 - 07:56 PM
Little Hawk 02 Jun 05 - 07:56 PM
The Fooles Troupe 02 Jun 05 - 08:01 PM
frogprince 02 Jun 05 - 08:08 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 02 Jun 05 - 08:10 PM
akenaton 02 Jun 05 - 08:21 PM
Sorcha 02 Jun 05 - 08:25 PM
akenaton 02 Jun 05 - 08:31 PM
Bobert 02 Jun 05 - 08:54 PM
John O'L 02 Jun 05 - 09:19 PM
Once Famous 02 Jun 05 - 09:26 PM
Bobert 02 Jun 05 - 09:56 PM
Once Famous 02 Jun 05 - 09:59 PM
dianavan 02 Jun 05 - 10:14 PM
Bobert 02 Jun 05 - 10:15 PM
Once Famous 02 Jun 05 - 10:30 PM
Bobert 02 Jun 05 - 10:39 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 02 Jun 05 - 10:54 PM
Little Hawk 02 Jun 05 - 11:31 PM
Dave'sWife 03 Jun 05 - 01:25 AM
Ebbie 03 Jun 05 - 02:29 AM
Barry Finn 03 Jun 05 - 03:57 AM
Bobert 03 Jun 05 - 07:52 AM
saulgoldie 03 Jun 05 - 09:10 AM
frogprince 03 Jun 05 - 12:00 PM
Once Famous 03 Jun 05 - 12:28 PM
jacqui.c 03 Jun 05 - 12:51 PM
Ebbie 03 Jun 05 - 01:22 PM
Dave'sWife 03 Jun 05 - 01:42 PM
Don Firth 03 Jun 05 - 01:57 PM

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Subject: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: saulgoldie
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 01:40 PM

...when all children are born wanted into a society that truly values life, raised with (genuine!) love, properly fed, medically (and mentally!) cared for, and educated. Then shall we close the prisons and dance and sing in the streets. And no vitriol, no matter HOW personal and irrational shall alter this truth.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: gnu
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 01:42 PM

Amen.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 02:00 PM

There are a few people, who for no apparent reasons in their upbringing or present circumstances, commit real crimes. We will never be able to close every prision, but 99% of them is possible.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 02:41 PM

Avarice, jealousy, revenge, will keep enough of them open for many years after we achieve your Utopia. The human condition dictates it not social standing.

Yours, Aye. Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: just john
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 02:47 PM

Then shall we close the prisons and dance and sing in the streets.


Y'know, obstructing traffic is ILLEGAL. Get in the squad car. Mind your head.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: frogprince
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 02:58 PM

Yes, Dave, it would take years before the prisons could be closed down; but the time WOULD COME when the bottom would fall out of our
current rates of crime and imprisonment. I assume that Saul realizes
that his "when" is really a very wishful "if". But the effort to reach as far as we can toward that ideal is immenently worthwhile.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 03:06 PM

is this a qote from somewhere?


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 03:06 PM

I have done my best to work towards that ideal frogprince :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 03:10 PM

Mrs I think it is a biblical quote... Deuteronomy? afraid my memory is deserting me..

Yours, Aye. Dave (the other Dave not yours Mrs)


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 03:33 PM

This would be oh so nice if it was true.

Unfortunately human nature will always contain jealousy, hate, want, need, greed, and everything else.

So you can light up another dooby and enjoy the pipe dream because it's not going to happen until humanity evolves into something else.

Read Arthur C. Clarke's "Childhood's End."


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: mg
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 03:50 PM

I think we could empty a lot more right now with creative technology for non-violent, non-predatory criminals...frequent drug and alcohol tests, a limited time of day they could be out and about, to limited number of places, mandatory education/public work/coaching...could be done...worked for martha stewart.. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 03:55 PM

I don't think it's from the Bible. I've checked 4 different translations for the words "prison' "Prisons' and 'Jail' and nothing even close.

During Pr-Roman times, prisons as we know them did not exists and it imprisonment was only done whilst awaiting trial. My Bible concordance makes note of this by pointing out the odd places where various old testament figures were held such as a Cistern (Joseph) a well (Jeremiah) and so on. So if it is biblical, it would be more likely to be from the Greek Scriptures.. maybe Acts?

Where IS Joe Offer whn you need him.. I bet he'd know.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 03:56 PM

Yeah, sure. It could work for other multi-millionaires, also. bid deal.

How about your ghetto heroin pushers? You want them running around also?


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 06:26 PM

But who else would make our license plates and crush all those rocks and pick up trash on the roads for fifteen cents per hour?


I'm sending a letter to the White House to make sure that doesn't happen. I'm sure they'll listen to little old me! ;-)


Hubby


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 06:33 PM

Might be the Apocrypha, but I am at a loss to remember it. The Old Testament probably? Sorry, I cannot remember.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 06:35 PM

I highly recommend a book called The Sociopath Next Door, by Martha Stout. It seems that about one in twenty-five of the population (social and economic status aside) is a sociopath, and from the ranks of these comes a significant part (much higher than their numbers would indicate) of our criminal population. This status is highly correlated with genetic factors, though not one to one.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 06:54 PM

Well, yeah, this would probably go a long ways toward closin' down the prisons... And getting there are going to involve a different consciousness... The current culture is way to nilhistic and greedy... not to mention ignorant... I can somewhat forgive the ignorant part becuase way too many folks are way too busy to get beyond the propaganda that they are force feed on a daily basis by greedier folks then themselves...

I'd just like to also agree that we could cut the current incarceration in half if we were to look at all the folks who are servin' time for victimless crimes, such as drug addicts... But this is going to take another consciousness...

But lastly, I have mentioned this idea in the past but I'd love to see a public private partnership between business and prisons and have employed inmates who are are part of a business so that when he or she is released will have a job and a leg up on not becoming another recivitist stat....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: freda underhill
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 07:07 PM

A few years ago i went to Manus Island, a few degrees from the equator. This island is populated by indigenous people of different tribes who live in the Dranou, Yi ringou, Sohoniliu and Kopou villages, and who speak the Lele and Nali languages.

Manus Island has no jail, the people live in peace and I felt completely safe while i was there.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 07:13 PM

Agreed, saulgoldie. Although society is never perfect, the most irresponsible and unthinking reason to put up with its many imperfections is just to say, "Well, that's human nature, and it will never change.

Most social problems are driven by:

inequality

injustice

poverty

broken homes

divisive politics and religions

pragmatism (survival of the "fittest")

and worship of money to the exclusion of other much more vital aspects of reality, such as equality, love, and responsibility to one's fellow living beings.

All anyone needs is enough money, but to a ruthless social competitor no amount is ever enough. And from that stem most of the problems. Thus, "the LOVE of money is the root of all evil", as it says in the Bible. (I'd qualify that, and say it is the root of most evil, but not all. Egocentrism is also the root of much evil.)


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 07:48 PM

Yes, if we just genetically test everyone and shoot all those that fail, we will have a purer society!

I know we tried it before, but we were working on facial shapes and racial backgrounds, but now we got it right!

Seig Heil! Seig Heil! Seig Heil!


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: jaze
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 07:56 PM

One can hope, can't they, Martin? And work to help make it happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 07:56 PM

Huh? What was that a response to?


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 08:01 PM

All Heil Martin!


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: frogprince
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 08:08 PM

There will always be those who turn out badly, dangerously, wrong, for reasons no social policies or parenting classes will cure; but if we can ever approach the ideal in Saul's opening post, the change will be so marked that it will damn near be "the end of civilization as we know it".


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 08:10 PM

Hi Bobert,

I usually can relate to your opinions on most subjects, but this time.............No!

Where do most of your drug addicts get the money to finance their habits?

Victimless crimes, I don't think so, when they are robbing old and disabled, poor and vulnerable people, of the little they possess, because they are least likely to fight back.

Think again my friend, you haven't been paying attention to what is happening every day in a city near you.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 08:21 PM

Big news in UK at the moment is how a group of 11 and 12 year old boys and girls apparently tried to hang a 5yr old .

Amazingly,these children have been charged with attempted murder.

What a sick society we live in, not only in the actions of the children, but how that action and the reaction of authority reflects on us all....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 08:25 PM

And the sociopaths and psychopaths will always be with us...so will the Stoopid Ones.....


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 08:31 PM

???


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 08:54 PM

Yo, Don... Think about this... If you decriminalize drug possession then guess what? The price goes way down and folks ain't bustin' into other folks homes to get the dough to maintain thier habits...

Plus, in doing so you also remove druggies from the criminal elements who get them involved with other bad stuff...

(But, Bobert, when you decriminalize drugs then everyone is gonna wanta be a drug addict, won't they?)

No, not really... Plus, if you allow addicted people access to drugs then you stand a much better chance of helping them with drug treatment rather than incarceration...

(But, Bobert, shouldn't the governemnt have to test these drugs before makin' them available to the general public to make sure they are safe?)

Well, no. More people are killed from alcohol and nicotine products than all the other drugs in existence and these are legal... I mean, lets get real here... It's okay to drink 'er smoke yerself to death, and in the case of drinkin' maybe kill some other folks on yer way, but lets lock up some kid fir smokin' crack????

I don't get it???

And out prisons are filled with folks whoes only crime was gettin' into drugs... Maybe after they get paroled they can just go out, buy a six pack fir 3 bucks and plow into a school bus???

Like I said, I don't get it...

And while I'm on the subject of not gettin' it lets keep in mind that a disportunate number of these folks we got locked up are descendants of former slaves who were supposedly set free???

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: John O'L
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 09:19 PM

born wanted
a society that truly values life
raised with genuine love
properly fed
medically and mentally cared for
educated

It's a big ask.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 09:26 PM

Don T, you beat me to the punch about bobert's reasoning.

If that is his vision of society, I would think that we would be in the ultimate of decadence.

Legalizing drugs is the wrong thing to do. Educating people about the unhealthy perils of drugs would be more productive.

bobert's ignorant colors shine through again.

Illegal drugs produce nothing but victims. Obviously bobert is in a drug induced fog.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 09:56 PM

I agree whole heartedly about educatin' folks about the perils of drug use... Couple that with a lot more drug treatment, decriminalizin', decent jobs for folks and guess what... The drug problem will no longer be the collective drag it is on our country.

But this of course isn't going to go over too well with the prison/industrial complex who have vested interests in keeping things just the way they are...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 09:59 PM

Thanks for somewhat coming to your senses, bobert.

I knew you could clear your head for a moment or two.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 10:14 PM

Saulgoldie - I totally agree with you.

It is an ideal that we should strive to attain.

It may not be true at present but that should not stop us from trying.

The only thing we know for sure is that all things change in time.

Better to keep your heart full of hope than despair.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 10:15 PM

Does this mean yer fir decriminalization and drug treatment and creatin' good jobs fir folks???


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 10:30 PM

decriminalization................absolutely not.
drug treatment.....................if you pay for it.
good jobs............................Yes. But we would have to take over China at this point.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 10:39 PM

Well, we agree on 1 outta 3... Yep, yer boys have shipped to jobs outta this country...

As fir drug treatment and decriminalization? We are payin' for not not doing those things... and thru the nose... They would be a bargain...

Martin, do you have any idea what criminalization, the crime that results from it and incarceration is costing American???

I mean, billions, upon billions, upon billions of your tax dollars, yer insurance permium dollars & yer society...

Hey, if you feel comfy payin' to incarcerate upwards of 10% of the population then that's fine... I don't....

In the words of the late and great Waylon Jennings, "We need a change"...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 10:54 PM

Perhaps saulgoldie could enlighten us with the origin of the quote?
The Torah perhaps?

Yours, Aye. Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 11:31 PM

I've been in a place where ALL medical treatment was free. 100% free. And it was a very good idea, and produced very good results in terms of general health in that society.

In Canada a good deal of it is free, but some of it is very expensive. Accordingly, a good many people do without the treatment they desperately need, and get sick and die prematurely. Too bad. That does not have to happen, but it happens.

As for drugs, I was keenly aware of the down side of those from the earliest age, and I didn't even need public education to alert me to that. Nope. I had the best thing of all to alert me to it...a family that did not abuse substances (not cigarettes, not alcohol, and not other drugs). Kids do tend to follow the example that's put in front of them at an early age (unless it is preached at them aggressively and shoved down their throats!).

Am I surprised that most of the young people I knew abused drugs when their parents were drinking and smoking in front of them all their lives? Naw..... One drug is pretty much like another. To go from a cigarette to a marijuana joint is like going from a blue shirt to a green shirt. Barely any difference, really, except one is arbitrarily illegal and the other isn't. You can get high on tobacco too, although it's a different kind of high. You also get high on coffee and alcohol, 2 more harmful drugs, both legal.

Hypocrisy is rampant, and it goes hand in hand with conventionality. The conventional mind says, "It's okay for me to abuse THIS drug because it's legal." The rebellious kid says, "Show me something ILLEGAL so I can prove to my peeers that I'm a real rebel."

Silliness all the way around. Silly parents. Silly kids.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 01:25 AM

Prisons are a bit like Baseball fields in cornfields..if you build them, you will fill them.

When I mentioned my Bible Concordance said there were virtually no jails or prisons in Pre-Roman times - nobody blinked and went on to quote statsitics about 1 in 25 people being sociopaths. Why is that, we should ask.

Before 1900, there were not many real prisons in The United States and then for a brief period early in the 20th Century we had prison reforms that did seem to work. What blew it all to hell was prohibition and the rise of orgnaized crime combined with the collapse of manufacturing in American cities which then created Ghettos and Inner-Cities in decay... oh bother...

My point is that if you don't have lots of cells in prisons as an out - you find solutions. The more prisons you have - the easier it is criminalise diseases such as addiction - toss them into jail and throw away the key. Maybe we should toss sociopaths down Cisterns like they did to Joseph in The Old Testament.. works for me.

Joel Norris actually argued quite well in his book on sociopathology that at least in Western societies, we are creating conditions that are condusive to growing more sociopaths and he referred to the rise in the numbers of serial killers as ' a public health crisis.' He made a good argument that the following forumla can be counted upon to create serial killers:

Malnourished male children + physical abuse (especially to the right brain) + sexual abuse + a couple other variables such as genetic predispostion = Serial killer

His contention that violent crime should be approached from a neurological perspective was revolutionary back in its day. Now we know that other things such as low resting heart rate can also predispose male children to violence later in life.

Where am I going with this.. I dunno... Just trying to suggest it isn't so simple as locking them all away. To a degree we get what we make of this world.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 02:29 AM

Good heavens, Dave's Wife: "...low resting heart rate can also predispose male children to violence later in life." ??

That's the first I've ever heard that. What correlation does that have? In my family ( a large one) a number of us have/had low heart rates as well as low blood pressure and I cannot imagine a less lawless family.

Can you direct me to some information on that? Thanks.

By the way, I suspect that Saul Goldie came up with that beautiful thought on his own. At least none of my search engines have found it or any portion of it. Take credit, Saul. It's a good thought.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Barry Finn
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 03:57 AM

In the prison system I believe the majority of inmates are there on drug or drug related charges. While I agree in part with both Don & Bobert I also think that if rehabilitation where really practiced instead of retribution & punishment & the drug clinics were used
to really help addicts recover instead control them in order to contain crime, society as a whole would benefit & I would think that the need for incarceration would decrease drastically. Just my 2 cents worth.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 07:52 AM

That was the point I was trying to make about partnering up business with prisons, Barry, so that inmates would be emplyed and upon their release have a smoother transition back in the general population...

But that just part of the rehabilitation process but a big part...

The problem is that with every follar we a re spending on new prisons we are taking from programs that help people stay out of prisons...

And our entire view of social spending tends to be punitive, be it schools that are shut down because they are failing (mostly from lack of resources to begine with) or a welfare propgram that punishes two parent families??? It just biggles my mind to think just how umcompassionate America is... at least it's policies...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: saulgoldie
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 09:10 AM

I humbly accept all the kudos for the quote. I did, in fact write it myself. I feel honored at some of the speculation as to where it came from.

I didn't mean the quote literally, and I don't for a minute believe that it could or would happen overnight. For one thing, it takes a generation of loved and cared for children to become the adults who will be staying out of prison.

Yes, Bobert, a huge percentage of the crime is related to drugs being illegal and abusers getting prison instead of treatment. It is also related to untreated mental illness, which is big part of the drug problem, which in turn is related to children's being raised with abuse.

And yes, too, there will always be a percetage of the population that is truly mentally ill. Most mental illness is treatable; some of it is no threat to society; and all of it can be much more effectively dealt with. Imagine one small fraction of the military budget being put to research on mental health, which is a national security issue of a different sort than soldiers on the field, but no less of one. And imagine a society that is open to enacting policies that the research suggests!

The thought, which I have harbored for some time, is both sad and hopeful for me. Hopeful, because I truly believe that it is within human capability, if we only had the will. Sad because we don't seem to have the will. We are off in so many cockamamamie directions and silly distractions that I don't know if we can find our way to the path. But if I didn't have at least a shred of hope, I wouldn't even have posted it.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: frogprince
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 12:00 PM

Not much left to say except "amen".


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 12:28 PM

Decriminalization of drug laws will create more drug addicts and put more danger on the streets.

It will still take money to buy them and crimes will still be committed to obtain them.

That, and a decadence that I hope never happens.

Only onewho is in to drugs can campaign for it. As one who was a total pothead years ago, that agenda is almost always self serving.

It will never happen. I thought it might at one time and am now thankfully convinced that it won't.

What old hippies like bobert are out of touch with, is that the generations after us are far more conservative to this issue.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: jacqui.c
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 12:51 PM

It's not just the will, it's the understanding that is needed as well. Everyone who becomes a parent has to develop parenting skills to enable those children to grow up into the type of human beings Saul is talking about.

Until ALL parents understand that they have been granted a very special priviledge in their children and take the time and the care to nurture them in the right way it ain't never going to happen. It seems to me that their will always be the selfish or careless or ignorant childrearer, no matter how hard the majority try to do the right thing. Human nature, yes, but how do you legislate for it?


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 01:22 PM

"As one who was a total pothead years ago...' That explains so much. Take your meds.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 01:42 PM

Ebbie - I'll PM if you like with a list of papers and books that explore the various genetic aspects of potential predispostion to violence. It would bore the pants of everyone here. And, it's not just the metabolic issues that are being explored.

I co-authored an article that summarised some of the research and while I oversimplified it quite a bit in my statement - the low resting heart-rate...when found in conjunction with certain other physiological factors does seem to be a valid predictor for which males may 'act out' in their teens and/or develop a history of violence. The danger of course in in people over-applying the information innapropriately. It's not something that can be boiled down to a soundbyte.

The cutting edge research in this area is actually not being done in the United States where I live, but in England. One of the doctors involved actually has sxome of the traits he's studying! He makes it clear that there is a difference between sociopathology and this physiological predispostion to violence that's being explored. They differentiate between people who acquire lower resting heart-rates via physical conditiong and people who are born with abnormally low heart rates.

One of the theories is that these kids are less easily aroused emiotionally and therefore less likely to develop normal empathy. they also display a sort of 'slow burn' type of anger that isn't as readily apparent to observers because of their low arousal. Therefore, when they actually have a burst of rage, it appears to be out of proprotion to nromalm rage when in fact, it merely took them a lot longer to get that angry. Therefore, the problem may be more in how we react to these kids than in the kids themselves.

As with anything having to do with raising children, the evidence seems to show that parents can have a postive effect on kids who have a]some of these characteristics but simply encouraging greater engagement with peers, family and their enivirnoment. So while, yes, there are certain genetic characteristics that might predsipose one to certain behvaiors society finds troublesome, there also appears to be plenty of means to mitiagte that predispostion.

I hope that explains things more completely. Let me know if you want to do some reading.

I only brought this up because my statements were headed towards the 'we get the society we deserve' end of the argument and I was merely attempting to qaulify my own words with the 'there will always be physicological factors we can't control' type of argument.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 01:57 PM

It's a truism that those who will not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. We've gone through this sort of thing before, and it resulted in a monumental increase in crime and gang warfare--not unlike the current so-called "war on drugs." All I need say is one word:--

Prohibition.

Don Firth


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