Lyr Req: Pronunciation req's for British Subjects

Subject: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: chico
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 05:41 PM

Can any linguistical expert elucidate the proper pronouciations for these words:


Grosvenor ( silent s or not?)
Edinburgh ('Borough' or "Burg"?)
Musselburgh (Mussel like 'muscle')?
Tichbourne ('sh' or hard 'ch' sound?)
Hotham (Hot-ham? or hoTHam like Gotham?)
Elizabeth (16th century usuage: long or short 'i', like Eliza is pronounced today?)
Tyburn (place of execution/beheading of Charles II. What is the 'y' sound, long or short?)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 05:53 PM

Grovenor (silent s)

Tie- burn (like neck tie, then burn)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: IanC
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 05:57 PM

Growvna
Edinbra
Musselbra
Titchburn
Hot-ham
Elizabeth isn't eliiza beth
Tie-burn

:-)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 06:07 PM

No 1 Grosvenor=Grove-ner
No2 Edinburgh (ask a Scot not an Englishman)
No 3 Musselburgh (As Above)
NO 4 Tichbourne = Titch- born
5& 6 =?
No 7 = Tie or Ty(as in Ty Hardin)Burn

Boy am I leaving myself wideopen here

Gerry

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 06:14 PM

Or should Tyburn be pronounced Tie-bun?

Gerry
even deeper in the mire

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 06:27 PM

Grove-ner.
Edinbra.
Muscelbra.
Titchburn.
Hot-ham (said quickly).
Elizabeth (short not like Eliza).
Tie-burn.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subj
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 06:40 PM

"...place of execution/beheading of Charles II" - not an episode known to the historical record. Charles died in his own time. And his father Charles the First was executed in Whitehall, down the other end of London.

Tyburn (pronounced with a tie) is at Marble Arch,and a very popular place of execution for the generality - highwaymen, and Catholic priests and so forth. It's quite near Speakers' Corner - I wonder if that tradition might have been a carry over from the crowds of spectators that used to attend on executions there for hundreds of years, and no doubt got haranged by orators on the scaffold and off it.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subj
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 06:51 PM

Hotham

Difficult, it depends on the derivation of the name and local usage. The element "ham" in a place name should correctly be pronounced separately but modern usage has often changed that. If you are looking for period pronounciation it may be different from modern.

On the London / Essex border Walthamstow was historically pronounced walt-ham-stow but that changed to walth-'am-stow in the 19th century.

On the other side of London the town of Chesham is pronouced Chesh-ham by incomers but you can still find locals who say ches-ham

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 07:01 PM

I thought that Charles I was beheaded at the Banqueting House in Whitehall

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 07:12 PM

So why do you pronounce the letter R as "Aw" but when a word ends with the letter A you add an R to the pronunciation?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 07:28 PM

Because 'tis English, don' chew know. :)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subj
From: chico
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 07:32 PM

I accidentaly typed in an extra "I", I meant Charles I.

The song in question is "lawyer's lamentation of charing-cross"

The last words are:

Now, WHIGS, I would advise you all,
'Tis what I'd have you do;
For fear the King should come again,
Pray pull down TYBURN too.

This was written in 1647 2years before the beheading. Was this a premonition of the regicide, and the predicted spot? (whether or not it actually occured there?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 07:33 PM

BTW Chico,

In the UK, it's not Pronounciation, but (following the Latin root) Pronunciation.

I think you'll find most locals calling Hotham   "Hottum".
And Elizabeth is definitely short i, not like Eliza.

For the rest, Gerry (Banjo-Flower) is right in his first post, including asking a Scot for Scottish pronunciations.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Leadfingers
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 07:59 PM

The reference to pulling down Tyburn too is that was where the Whigs were likely to finish up themselves , for rebelling against the Monarch !

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subj
From: chico
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 08:03 PM

The contemporary pro. of Elizabeth is short, but are you sure the period (time of Shakespeare 1550-1630) pronunciation of Elizabeth is short 'i'? At the time, words like "wind" were pronounced with a long 'i' (like to wind up a toy). The short i is mostly a modern creation in english as the language simplified (short i is easily to say).

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subj
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 08:17 PM

Well done to the original poster for remebering we are subjects, not citizens.

I agree with the consesnus on all the pronunciations, BTW.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 08:43 PM

As a rule, final -gh isn't voiced; that's what the "h" is for. I've only ever heard Edinburgh prounced with a final "g" by foreigners (they sometimes also say "Edin-broe". That's wrong, too). It should make no difference at all whether you ask a Scottish or English person; the only variation would be whether the final part is pronounced "bra" or "burra"; and that's merely down to how fast you say it.

That "wined/winned" business is a red herring, really, as poetic diction doesn't reflect contemporary usage. "Mind" and "wind" used to rhyme, true; but neither word was pronounced quite as it is today. "Mind" used to have a shorter vowel sound than it does now.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 07:52 AM

That said, how does one pronounce the given name Gervase? Or is it Gervaise?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subj
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 08:15 AM

For everything you want to know about Edinburgh, its history and its music, see Jack Campin's wonderful CD "Embro, Embro". That might give you a clue to at least one pronunciation too!

Embro, Embro

The American price gives you a very generous exchange rate just now!

As for Tyburn, that's where executions were carried out, and where several of the Regicides (those who signed Charles I's death warrant) were hanged, drawn and quartered after the restoration.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 08:45 AM

'ow would banjflower know, he's just a yellowbelly.

eric

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subj
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 09:58 AM

I don't think that the term "whig" would have come into use as early as 1647, but not for another 30 years. I'd have thoiught a song with a verse like that woudl have been more likely from a Jacobite source, dating from a tiem after the coup that sent James II into exile.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 11:01 AM

In view of the fact that just about everyone agreed with him, Eric, I should say he proved that he knows...............He Knaws ye Knaw!

Don T.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subj
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 11:39 AM

"...we are subjects, not citizens"

Not true, though it's a common assertion. People are subjects of the Queen (or King as may be), and citizens of the country, whichever country that might be, both at the same time.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 12:24 PM

Well done to the original poster for remebering we are subjects, not citizens

Bunnahabhain, you may be a subject but I am a citizen.

Doug C

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 12:42 PM

If you noticed, DougR, we may not be called that, but we too are definitely subject to the vagaries of the government of the country we are citizens of.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 02:03 PM

Jarv-ace.

Anyway, instead of arguing over how to pronunce Edinburgh, why not say Auld Reekie.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subj
From: Sorcha
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 02:20 PM

My all time favorite is Woolfardisworthy.....Woolsey!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: brid widder
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 04:12 PM

I think Hotham is Hoth'm or Hothum

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 04:56 PM

McGrath of Harlow, why do you say James II? I suppose you say Edward VII and not Edward II?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Santa
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 05:13 PM

Interesting to see the Chesh-ham/Ches-ham bit. Up here in Kirkham Lancashire, the adjacent village is Wesham: Wesh-um to most but Wess-um to some inhabitants. Or Wizzum. The next village is Greenhalgh - Greenhalsh or Greenhash. But Lytham is always Li-thum, never Light-ham or anything similar.

In a more civilised county there's Alnwick - Annik. But everywhere in England you'll find similar.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 05:13 PM

"If you noticed, DougR,....."

Wrong Doug, Ebbie

DC

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 05:37 PM

Woolfardisworthy doesn't beat Featherstonehaugh- Fanshaw!
English is full of names like Mainwaring which should be said Mannering.

Why does he say James II? Because that was the monarch's name perchance?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subj
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 05:56 PM

James II of England, Wales, Ireland, and a few other places, James VII of Scotland. But that's a bit of a mouthful.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 06:00 PM

So right, Doug C - my apologies.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST,Vice68
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 06:02 PM

Round here, in Leith, (important distinction) it's(Edinburgh) pronounced "Embra"
James II ruled from 1437 to 1460. Elizabeth the first is now on the throne. Her son would be Charles the third. Funny how "his" kids are William and Henry, good ecumenical/non-masonic names both.....

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 06:11 PM

This debate seems to be one of the few truly enduring traditions that some parts of the US inherited and retained from the Brits.

I once lived in Boston on a street where the "proper pronunciation of the street name had divided residents for decades. The city had somewhat ameliorated the bitterness of the debate by placing a street sign at the end of the block, where those who lived on one side would likely enter so they could park in front without a U-turn, could use their favorite ROSS-e-ter, while at the other end of the block those of other inclination could see their preferred ros-ETT-er. One elderly person persistently went to the other end of the block, walked half way down and crossed in the middle because he said they put his sign on the wrong end of the block.

A short way down the road, the divisions in sentiment and "certain and indisputible historical knowledge" had force the city to erect SEVEN separate signs, each with a different spelling, to identify the "roundabout" called Kosciuzko Circle. Locals all had their firmly held convictions about which was the correct spelling, although not all who agreed on the spelling had the same pronunciation. Significantly, none of them could tell you who "Ol' Kozzy" was, or why they named the circle after him.

John

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST,Vice68
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 06:16 PM

also......
I really HATE that way of saying (eg) "withdrawing" as if there's a 2nd R. AAAAAAAAARGH!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 06:25 PM

So what about these, some Scottish, some English;
Strathaven
Milngavie
Brewood
Cholmondley
Menzies
StJohn






































Strathaven      Stray ven

















Milngavie                Mull guy



















Brewood          Brood














Cholmondley               chum lay




















St John               sin gin















Menzies                        Mingus ( like Charley)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 06:34 PM

That last is more usually Ming-ies (pronounced like us, i.e. singies).

Don T.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: wildlone
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 02:49 AM

Cholmondley-----Chum lee
I went to school there

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Sliding Down The Bannister At My Auntie's House
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 03:20 AM

What about "Beau le eaux" - BOLLOCKS
I believe it derives from the late 11th century Norman.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Sliding Down The Bannister At My Auntie's House
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 03:22 AM

Sorry that should have read "Beau les eaux" plural of course. the singular being "Testique alle"

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Sliding Down The Bannister At My Auntie's House
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 03:33 AM

Whats all that cobblers about "ask a Scot, not an Englishman"? If something is posted here is it now autamaticaly classed as asking an Englishman? I thought it was addressed to the mnuddy community in general.

Anyway Edinburgh is the ENGLISH name for Dùn Èideann (Fort of Aidan) which is the correct gaelic name for the town.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 04:30 AM

McGrath of Harlow, Edward VII was king of England, Ireland and Wales, but Edward Ist of Scotland, also a bit of a mouthful? Or why not be honest and admit you only use English titles.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subj
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 07:54 AM

I really HATE that way of saying...

But why? The world is full of variation. The languages we talk varies, the way we look and the way we dress and the way we behave, and the music we play. That's how it's supposed to be. Surely it's entertaining living in a world like that, not something to "hate".

................
As for the citizen/subject stuff, just have a look at a UK passport some time. It unambiguously uses the term "citizen".

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 08:20 AM

Try Higham = Hickham

Barugh = Bark

Notton (palindrome)

Cudworth = Cuderth (Michael Parkinson's birthplace)

Dodworth = Doderth

All around Barnsley, Sth Yorkshire

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 11:23 AM

Re: The world is full of variation. The languages we talk varies, the way we look and the way we dress and the way we behave, and the music we play.
--------
Well said and done, McGrath.

I live in Missouri, and even the people who live here don't agree on how to pronounce it. I'm of the Missour-ee school, myself, along with most of the western part of the state.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 11:23 AM

I still want to know how to pronounce Gervase.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 12:34 PM

Jarv-ace (emphasis on second syllable I think).

Surprised nobody mentioned the village of twocester- TOASTER.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subj
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 01:26 PM

For that matter there's "London".   Or "Washington", when you think about it.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 01:28 PM

Everyone knows it's Lunnon.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 01:33 PM

Thanks Folkman for being insulted when none was intended,
Now tell me how many Scots call Edinborough "Dùn Èideann "and do they pronounce it in the Shetlands as they do in the Western Isles?

Btw Folkman how would you pronounce Schenectady without offending an American or Whangarei Without upsetting a New Zealander?

Gerry

P.S Beau les eaux

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subj
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 05:14 PM

Skuh NEK tuh dee

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 05:39 PM

It's a funny thing about pronunciations, I remember a few years back there was a US quiz show hosted by Bill Cosby, and contestants were forever correcting Bill for his mispronuciation of there place names. But, of course, is no one correct pronuciation. For example, the majority of the inhabitants of Birmingham (UK) pronounce the "ham" section of the word " gum". Now, does that means the the rest of of us are pronoucing it incorrectly?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 05:56 PM

But everyone just calls them Brummies.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 06:05 PM

Shrowsbury
or
Shrewsbury?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 06:28 PM

Marry lee bone?

or Marly bone?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST,Don(Wyziwyg)T, by the back door
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 06:47 PM

What UK passport, McGrath?

The one I've got says I'm a European Community citizen.

I no longer have it, so can't say with absolute certainty, but I seem to remember that my old British passport requested that the bearer, a British subject, be allowed to pass without let or hindrance.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 07:01 PM

McGrath is right. I have just checked my old 10yr British passport...

my NATIONAL STATUS is stamped as 'British Citizen.'



On an even older Visitors Passport ( the one year one) it states on the cover...

'British Visitor's Passport for British Subjects : Citizens of United Kingdom and Colonies only.'

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 07:09 PM

ps On my current European Union passport my nationality is stamped as 'British Citizen.'

The wording inside the old British 10yr passport states..

'Her Brittanic majesty's Principal Secretary of Statefor foreign and commonwealth affairs requests and requiresin the name of her Majestyall those whom it may concern to allow the bearer to pass freely without let or hindrance and to afford the bearer such assistance and protection as maybe necessary.'

In the new euro passport they have dropped the 'principal' and 'for foreign and commonwealth affairs.'

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 07:29 PM

Skuh NEK tuh dee

Dave Oesterreich

Thanks Dave but the Question was for Folkman

Gerry

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST,Terry K
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 04:11 AM

Chesham is on the river Chess - if that's any guide....

Actually that's a bit of a red herring, because round here we say Chesh-um anyway.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 04:44 AM

The ones I love are the Norman-origin ones, which invariably get pronounced with total disregard to their provenance or equivalent pronounciation in today's French:

Bealieu = "Bee-ool-ey" (as in "Beulah" but different ending)
Chesham Bois = Chesham "Boys"
Pelham Fourneaux = "Plum Furnace"

I am not sure about the reasons for such pronunciations, but it appeals to my folkie instincts to think that it was the Saxon everyman's way of sticking a finger up at the Norman conqueror.

By the way, leeneia, it is "Gervays", the "G" as in German, the "vase" as the Americans might pronounce it.

But my all-time favourite is that place you pass going over the Pennines towards Manchester: Penistone. The locals all call it "Penniston", but that seems silly to me; you have kidney stones, why not penis ones too? It's getting to the point where Vanessa nowadays asks that we go a different route, if we carry other passengers in the car...

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 04:46 AM

Oi, TerryK, you live in "Cheshum" too?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 04:51 AM

Left out Beaufort = Beaver and Beauchamps = Beechum.
Anyway, the Normans had their own way of pronouncing French, offended (still does) French sensibilities.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST,Terry K
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 06:51 AM

Being as the Normans were Vikings, that's not surprising. Something like the Bretons having their own language as well as some unusual pronunciations of French - apparently that pisses the French off no end.

There's something attractive about things that piss the French off...

El Greko (or may I call you El - clearly short for Elvis) I don't live in Cheshum but I do some business there. I'm in Herts.

cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST,Liz the Squeak
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 08:03 AM

You forgot Belvoir - Beaver..... Ask anyone who ever served in the armed forces and Beaufort will be pronounced Bo-fort, the name of a rather popular gun of WWII.

There's a lovely one in Dorset spelled Puncknowle and pronounced Punnel.

And to be pedantic, as the Princess of Wales insisted, it is William and Harry, not Henry.

LTS

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subj
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 12:29 PM

Harry is just a different way of writing Henry, using something closer to the French pronunication.
................................

Theydon Bois, near Epping, with the "bois" pronounced "boys

............................

Mind, how about "Coemhghen" pronounced "Kevin"?

................
Rather disappointingly Mousehole in Cornwall is pronounced Mowzel.

Equally regrettably, the Thai tourist island of Phuket is in fact meant to be pronounced with an aspirated P sound rather than an F.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Cats
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 12:33 PM

Sorry but Woolfardisworthy isn't Woolery it's Woolsery. We live reasonably close to it and now the road signs even have Woolsery written in brackets beside it!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 12:51 PM

OOOPS I ment Belvoir, what a slip. It's especially amusing to me as there's a Crusader castle in the region called Belvoir (Belvwah).

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Santa
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 04:48 PM

Beaufort (Bo-fort)was the aeroplane in WW2. The gun was the Bofors, built under licence from the original Swedish company.

Just to upset the token Scot even more, isn't this Dun Edain just an invented form to hide the true original Edwin's Burg? King Edwin of Northumbria, which stretched up into what is now Fife, and covered what is now Northern England and the Scottish Lowlands. Shame it was driven out of existence, it makes a lot more sense to think of mainland Britain as the Celtic fringes, the Northern centre, and those damned sudanglii......

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 05:39 PM

Ascot "hello"   "Air hair lair"

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 06:21 PM

Harry is usually a shortened form of Harold, rather than Henry... The Princess of Wales insisted that his name was Harry, not Harold or Henry.

LTS

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subj
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 06:54 PM

"Harry is usually a shortened form of Harold, rather than Henry"

I've never come across this. Nobody ever talks about King Harry getting an arrow in the eye in 1066, nor can I remember any political satirists targetting Harry Wilson or Harry Macmillan; and Shakespeare is pretty clear about "God for Harry, England and Saint George" in Henry V.

I'm not disputing that there may be some Harrys who are really Harolds, but I'm doubting whether "usually" is correct. (And I wouldn't rely too much on Diana as an authority on many things... It's up to people to decide for themselves about those kinds of things, not their parents - as anyone with a name that exists in as many variations as Liz must surely agree.)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Gurney
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 06:55 PM

As a nod in the direction of his English ancestry, my boy's middle name is Ralph, pronounced 'Rafe'.
Saxon for 'house wolf.'

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronunciation req's for British Subje
From: GUEST,Iain
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 03:18 AM

It is possoble to have been (maybe still be) a british subject, and not a britich citizen but a citizen of a colony.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronunciation req's for British Subjects
From: Alec
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 04:00 AM

Interesting thread.Northumbrian place names have some not very obvious pronunciations as well.
Ovingham,Eltringham & Bellingham are pronounced Ovingjum,Eltringjum & Bellingjum.
Alnwick is pronounced Annick.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronunciation req's for British Subje
From: GUEST,Wolfhound person
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 04:19 AM

But Edlingham (NW of Alnwick) is not.....it's Ed-lingum

How about Stagshaw?
Stayshe..Staysha', Stagsha, stag-shaw.

Depends on which village / area the speaker comes from / lives in

Written from a village with a rare, for Northumberland, Celtic (welsh-type) name, where the natives still speak an impenetrable mixture of pitmatic and rural Northumbrian. It's English, all right, but with a built in time warp which makes it interesting.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronunciation req's for British Subjects
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 06:17 AM

A Glawegian friend of mine tells me that in his home city the Duke of Edinburgh is known as the 'Chuke-in-Embra' - which causes me no end of amusement!

There is a place on the North Norfolk coast called Holkham. I once heard two poets discussing it. One opined that it should be pronounced 'Hook-ham' whilst the other believed it should be Hoke-ham'. I'm afraid I interrrupted and said, "my Grandfather came from there and he pronounced it 'Holk-ham' - just like it's spelled".

In my home town of Peterborough ('Peter-buruh') the barbarous local planners (there are no other sorts in England now) ripped down an old part of the town and drove through a large road which they named 'Bourges Boulevard', after Peterborough's twin town in France. To the end of his days my Dad insisted on pronouncing it, "Borges' Bullyvard" - good for you, Dad!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronunciation req's for British Subjects
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 08:32 AM

Not forgetting Ightham ('Eye-tum'), Wrotham ('Root-um'), Happisburgh ('hayes-borough'), Wymondham ('wind-um'), Trottiscliffe ('trosley') and England ('in-gland').

Isn't Chumley pronounced Cholmondesleigh?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronunciation req's for British Subjects
From: s&r
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 08:47 AM

Gotham (Notts) is pronounced goat-um, stress on the first syllable. Goth um is for Batman.

Here's a list Fom Wikipedia
- sorry - from.

Stu

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronunciation req's for British Subje
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 11:55 AM

There's an old joke (1930's, I'd guess)about the Yank who was confused by British pronunciation. He shook his head sadly when told that "Worcester" came out "Wooster" and "Bethlehem" emerged as "Bedlam", but when he saw a theater with a sighn that proclaimed "Noel Coward's Blithe Spirit---pronounced success!" he packed up and went home.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronunciation req's for British Subjects
From: Dave Hunt
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 02:13 PM

Wednesbury in the Black Country is pronounced Wensb'ry

and of cours we have West Bromwich = west bromich

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronunciation req's for British Subjects
From: GUEST,Sue A
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 03:49 PM

I know a Gervase who pronounces his name Ger-vayse, and a Gervaise who pronounces his Ger-vis.