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Subject: Lyr/Chords Add: ROLL, ALABAMA ROLL From: chico Date: 06 Jun 05 - 12:14 AM G D7 |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Roll, Alabama Roll (Chords) From: Abby Sale Date: 06 Jun 05 - 09:11 AM Good version. Any idea where it comes from? I notice the "omit" - do you know something about that verse that "delegitimizes" it? Do you know that there _were_ any British in the area who did save crewmen? I know that many French went to the coast to watch the fun from land (could they see three miles?) but hadn't heard this. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Roll, Alabama Roll (Chords) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 Jun 05 - 02:36 PM Most of the crew were indeed saved by a british warship. Keith. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Roll, Alabama Roll (Chords) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 Jun 05 - 03:01 PM Correction. Survivors including Semmes rescued by English yacht, deerhound. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: ROLL, ALABAMA ROLL (from Schooner Fare) From: Rapparee Date: 06 Jun 05 - 03:03 PM This is from Schooner Fare's website; the song is on their "Schooner Fare -- Alive!" album. (Sorry, I don't have the chords 'cause I play trumpet.) ROLL, ALABAMA, ROLL Trad. Arr. Schooner Fare We borrowed this old halyard chantey from the collection of the great Bill Bonyun from Westport Island, Maine, and added a little Stephen Foster, and a dash of John Jameson. This great sing-a-long recounts the demise of the British-built Alabama during the American Civil War at the hands of the Maine-built Kearsarge in the English Channel. When the Alabama's keel was laid; Roll, Alabama, roll. It was laid in the yard of Jonathan Laird. Oh, roll, Alabama, roll. Down the Mersey ways she rolled then Roll, Alabama, roll. Liverpool fitted her with guns and men. Oh, roll, Alabama, roll. Oh, Susannah, don't you cry for me; I still sail the Alabama with my banjo on my knee. From the Eastern Isles she sailed forth; Roll, Alabama, roll. To destroy the commerce of the North. Oh, roll, Alabama, roll. And many a sailor saw his doom. Roll, Alabama, roll. As the Kearsarge hoved into view. Oh, roll, Alabama, roll. Chorus A ball from the forward pivot that day; Roll, Alabama, roll. Shot the Alabama's stern away. Oh, roll, Alabama, roll. Off the three mile limit in sixty-four. Roll, Alabama, roll. The Alabama was seen no more. Oh, roll, Alabama, roll. Chorus Roll, Alabama, roll. Oh, roll, Alabama, roll. Chorus Off the three mile limit in sixty-four. Roll, Alabama, roll. The Alabama was seen no more. Oh, roll, Alabama, roll. And the captain promised to his men Roll, Alabama, roll. That like the South, she'd rise again. Oh, roll, Alabama, roll. Chorus Chorus Roll, Alabama, roll. Roll, Alabama, roll. Oh, roll, Alabama, roll. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Roll, Alabama Roll (Chords) From: Lighter Date: 14 Sep 05 - 09:55 PM Chico, you never told us where your version came from. Colcord, _Songs of American Sailormen_ (1938) gives three stanzas only. Hugill, whose source told him in 1925 that she was the widow of a member of _Alabama's_ crew, offers nine. Doerflinger's shantyman, Dick Maitland, sang a version that was mostly improvised and unrhymed. Does anyone know anything about the authenticity of Bill Bonyun's version ? He learned a number of shanties in the 1950s (?) from a former Anglo-American seaman named Garfield, I believe, but I don't know if "Roll Alabama, Roll" was one of them. I don't know of any other "field collected" versions. Does anybody ? |
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Subject: RE: ADD Version: Roll, Alabama Roll (Chords) From: Joe Offer Date: 13 Aug 10 - 04:44 PM It would be nice to know the source of the lyrics in the first post. Are they historic, or are they the work of a recent songwriter? here's what the Traditional Ballad Index has to say about this song: Roll, Alabama, RollDESCRIPTION: The Alabama is built in Birkenhead by Jonathan Laird. After a long career of commerce-raiding, the Kearsarge catches her off Cherbourg and sinks herAUTHOR: unknown EARLIEST DATE: 1925 KEYWORDS: shanty battle navy Civilwar HISTORICAL REFERENCES: May 15, 1862 - Launching of the C.S.S. Alabama June 19, 1864 - The Alabama sunk by the U.S.S. Kearsarge FOUND IN: US(MA) New Zealand REFERENCES (7 citations): Doerflinger, pp. 35-37, "The Alabama" (2 texts, 1 tune) Colcord, p. 65, "Roll, Alabama, Roll" (1 text, 1 tune) Hugill, p. 159, "Roll, Alabama, Roll!" (1 text, 1 tune) [AbEd, pp. 126-127] Scott-BoA, pp. 245-247, "Roll, Alabama, Roll" (1 text, 1 tune) Darling-NAS, pp. 350-351, "The Alabama" (1 text) Silber-CivWar, p. 70, "Roll, Alabama, Roll" (1 text, 1 tune) DT, ROLLALAB* Roud #4710 CROSS-REFERENCES: cf. "Roll the Cotton Down" (tune) Notes: When the Civil War began, the Confederates had neither navy, nor merchant fleet, nor significant shipbuilding capability; all rested in the hands of the North. Facing economic strangulation, the South explored every avenue to build a fleet. Early in the war, the British were willing to help the Confederates build a navy. One of the ships built for this purpose was the Alabama, a fast commerce-raider. Built by Jonathan Laird, Ltd. at Birkenhead near Liverpool, the Federals protested her building from first to last, but somehow the papers never quite came through in time. (Allan Nevins, The War for the Union: War Becomes Revolution 1862-1863, Scribners, 1960, pp. 266-267, describes how American Minister to Britain Charles Francis Adams kept bringing new details to the British government about the Alabama. The British government theoretically agreed to try to stop work on the ship, but the local customs inspectors ignored their instructions.) After the completion of the hull in 1862, the Alabama sailed for the Azores to pick up arms and her Captain, Raphael Semmes (brother of the Confederate General Paul Semmes, killed at Gettysburg). Over the next two years, the Alabama sank a total of 69 Union merchant vessels, formally valued at $6,547,609. Although she once ran the blockade to enter the Confederate port at Galveston, the Alabama was generally unable to stop at Confederate ports; when she needed repairs in 1864, she stopped at the French port of Cherbourg. An American got off word of her presence there, and the Kearsarge was waiting when the Alabama sailed. Soon after the Alabama crossed the three mile limit, the Kearsarge moved in; the Confederate ship sank some forty minutes later. Her crew was rescued by a British yacht. According to Fletcher Pratt, A Compact History of the United States Nacy, pp. 151-152, there wasn't much difference in actual fighting power between the Alabama and the Kearsarge. But the Kearsarge was a well-drilled ship with properly-trained gunners. Alabama, which constantly had to change bases, could never lay in an adequate supply of powder and shot, so her gunners were much less accurate. And Kearsarge had two very heavy 11-inch guns. As a result, Kearsarge was able to score many more damaging hits and destroy her opponent while taking very little damage. The Alabama was a great success, but few ships followed her. The Americans demands for reparation, known as the "Alabama Claims," caused the British to stop building ships for the Confederacy. (In fact the claims covered the damage done by eleven ships; the total bill was $19,021,000, largely due to the Alabama, the Shenandoah, $6,488,320; and the Florida, $3,698,609). The Americans were finally paid some $15.5 million in 1873. According to James P. Delgado, Lost Waships: An Archaeological Tour of War at Sea, Checkmark, 2001, p. 122, the wreck of the Alabama was found off Cherbourg in 1984, and some artifacts have been recovered.- RBW For a broadside on the same subject see LOCSinging, as112570, "The Sinking of the Pirate Alabama," J. Magee (Philadelphia), 1864; also hc00026b, "The Sinking of the Pirate Alabama"; cw103190, "Kearsarge and Alabama" attributed to Silas S. Steele, "Tune: 'Teddy the Tiler,' or 'Cannibal Islands.'" - BS File: Doe035
Roll, Alabama, RollDESCRIPTION: The Alabama is built in Birkenhead by Jonathan Laird. After a long career of commerce-raiding, the Kearsarge catches her off Cherbourg and sinks herAUTHOR: unknown EARLIEST DATE: 1925 KEYWORDS: shanty battle navy Civilwar HISTORICAL REFERENCES: May 15, 1862 - Launching of the C.S.S. Alabama June 19, 1864 - The Alabama sunk by the U.S.S. Kearsarge FOUND IN: US(MA) New Zealand REFERENCES (10 citations): Doerflinger, pp. 35-37, "The Alabama" (2 texts, 1 tune) Colcord, p. 65, "Roll, Alabama, Roll" (1 text, 1 tune) Hugill, p. 159, "Roll, Alabama, Roll!" (1 text, 1 tune) [AbEd, pp. 126-127] Palmer-Sea 122, "Roll, Alabama, Roll" (1 text, 1 tune) Kinsey, pp. 122-123, "The Alabama" (1 text, 1 tune) Scott-BoA, pp. 245-247, "Roll, Alabama, Roll" (1 text, 1 tune) Darling-NAS, pp. 350-351, "The Alabama" (1 text) Silber-CivWarFull, pp. 252-253, "Roll, Alabama, Roll" (1 text, 1 tune) Silber-CivWarAbbr, p. 70, "Roll, Alabama, Roll" (1 text, 1 tune) DT, ROLLALAB* Roud #4710 CROSS-REFERENCES: cf. "Roll the Cotton Down" (tune) cf. "Mars Forevermore" (form) NOTES [926 words]: When the Civil War began, the Confederates had neither navy, nor merchant fleet, nor significant shipbuilding capability; all rested in the hands of the North. Facing economic strangulation, the South explored every avenue to build a fleet. And in their Navy Secretary Stephen Mallory they had perhaps the most creative of all Jefferson Davis's cabinet officers; it is probably not coincidence that Mallory was the only Confederate cabinet officer to serve for the entire existence of the Confederacy Early in the war, the British were willing to help the Confederates build a navy. One of the ships built for this purpose was the Alabama, a fast commerce-raider. Built by Jonathan Laird, Ltd. at Birkenhead near Liverpool, the Federals protested her building from first to last, but somehow the papers never quite came through in time. (Nevins, pp. 266-267, describes how American Minister to Britain Charles Francis Adams kept bringing new details to the British government about the Alabama. The British government theoretically agreed to try to stop work on the ship, but the local customs inspectors ignored their instructions. Stokesbury, p. 252, describes how Laird kept the whole thing quiet by simply calling the hull "No. 290.") After the completion of the hull in 1862, the Alabama sailed for the Azores to pick up arms and her Captain, Raphael Semmes (brother of the Confederate General Paul Semmes, killed at Gettysburg), who was the former commander of the raider Sumter and considered "the most distinguished fighter in the Confederate navy" (RandallDonald, p. 450). The crew reportedly "was mostly English and included very few Southerners" (RandallDonald, p. 450). Paine, p. 12, claims that the Alabama was, in terms of ships seized, the most successful commerce raider of all time; he credits her with destroying 55 ships and capturing ten more which were released on bond. McPherson, p. 547, credits her with 64 victories in her two year career. Jameson, p. 12, lists her tally as "sixty-five vessels and $10,000,000 worth of property." RandallDonald, pp. 450-451, lists her as having taken 62 merchant ships plus the larger navy vessel Hatteras. Catton simply says (p. 386) that she sank more than "threescore ships" while noting (p. 128) that one of her victims was the Alert, the ship in which R. H. Dana served his "Two Years Before the Mast." Boatner, p. 4, claims she took care of 69 ships. Although she once ran the blockade to enter the Confederate port at Galveston, the Alabama was generally unable to stop at Confederate ports; when she needed repairs in 1864, she stopped at the French port of Cherbourg. An American got off word of her presence there, and the Kearsarge was waiting when the Alabama sailed. Soon after the Alabama crossed the three mile limit, the Kearsarge moved in; the Confederate ship sank some forty minutes later. Her crew was rescued by a British yacht. According to Pratt, p. 151-152, there wasn't much difference in actual fighting power between the Alabama and the Kearsarge. (Paine, p. 12, lists Alabama with 6 32-pounders plus a 110-pounder and a 68-pounder; she could steam at 13 knots and carried a crew of 148. On p, 285, Paine lists Kearsarge as having two 11" pivot guns and 4 32-pounders; her crew was 160 and her speed 11 knots). But raw fighting power rarely settles battles. The Kearsarge was a well-drilled ship with properly-trained gunners. Alabama, which constantly had to change bases, could never lay in an adequate supply of powder and shot, so her gunners were much less accurate. Browne-BL, p. 584, declares "The firing of the Alabama was rapid and wild, getting better near the close; that of the Kearsarge was deliberate, accurate, and almost from the beginning productive of dismay, destruction, and death." Of course, Browne was the surgeon of the Kearsarge, so he was biased. But the assessment seems to be true. And Kearsarge had those two very heavy 11-inch guns. As a result, Kearsarge was able to score many more damaging hits and destroy her opponent while taking very little damage. Only three men on the Kearsarge were wounded (Browne-BL, p. 585). Both sides claimed that the other had fired after the Alabama ran up the white flag (Browne-BL, p. 586). But Alabama was already sinking, and only a few shots were fired. The Alabama was a great success, but few ships followed her. The Americans demands for reparation, known as the "Alabama Claims," caused the British to stop building ships for the Confederacy. In all the claims covered the damage done by eleven ships; the total bill was $19,021,000, largely due to the Alabama, the Shenandoah, $6,488,320; and the Florida, $3,698,609 (according to Boatner, p. 5). The Americans were finally paid in 1873. Boatner, p. 5, says the amount was $15.5 million, which figure is also quoted by Stokesbury, p. 252; Randall/Donald, which devotes half a dozen pages to the neutral tribunal which adjudicated the claims, says that the figure was $1,929,819 in gold; I suspect some of the discrepancy lies in conversion rates. According to Delgado, p. 122, the wreck of the Alabama was found off Cherbourg in 1984, and some artifacts have been recovered.- RBW For a broadside on the same subject see LOCSinging, as112570, "The Sinking of the Pirate Alabama," J. Magee (Philadelphia), 1864; also hc00026b, "The Sinking of the Pirate Alabama"; cw103190, "Kearsarge and Alabama" attributed to Silas S. Steele, "Tune: 'Teddy the Tiler,' or 'Cannibal Islands.'" - BS Bibliography
File: Doe035 Go to the Ballad Search form Go to the Ballad Index Instructions The Ballad Index Copyright 2020 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Charley Noble Date: 13 Aug 10 - 04:59 PM I'm not sure whether there was one source for our old friend Bill Bonyun's version of "The Alabama." He was certainly familiar with the three verses in Songs of American Sailormen by Joanna Colcord. On his recording Roll & Go, © 1962, it's actually Frank Warner who leads the song; it's probably Warner's version that Schooner Fare worked from. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: ADD Version: The Alabama (Doerflinger #1) From: Joe Offer Date: 13 Aug 10 - 05:04 PM MMario posted the versions from Doerflinger in another thread. for comparison, they should probably also be posted here. Thread #54759 Message #849770 Posted By: MMario 18-Dec-02 - 03:28 PM Thread Name: Songs of the Sailor and Lumberman Subject: Add:The Alabama (1) THE ALABAMA (1) |
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Subject: ADD Version: The Alabama (Doerflinger #2) From: Joe Offer Date: 13 Aug 10 - 05:05 PM Thread #54759 Message #849773 Posted By: MMario 18-Dec-02 - 03:29 PM Thread Name: Songs of the Sailor and Lumberman Subject: add: The Alabama (2) THE ALABAMA (2) |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Charley Noble Date: 13 Aug 10 - 05:11 PM I always like the verse that Sara Grey and the Friends of Fiddlers Green used to sing: A ball from the forward pivot that day; Roll, Alabama, roll. Shot the Alabama's ass away. Oh, roll, Alabama, roll. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 13 Aug 10 - 05:11 PM What happened to the thread with the old Boer song, Dar Kom die Alibama? I'm sure it is here somewhere. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: JeffB Date: 13 Aug 10 - 06:14 PM My version, which is entirely from oral sources, seems to be the English "standard", except for the first verse which I have heard only once. It makes a good finishing verse too. The last verse here is usually - Off the three-mile limit in '65 / the Alabama went to her grave, but I've changed that as the year is wrong. Perhaps I should do something about the claim that she was in Cherbourg to pick up prize money as well. Let us build the Alabama they said and she'll be a vessel all men will dread. Oh the Alabama's keel was laid in the Atlantic yard of Jonathan Laird. Down the Merseyway she sailed and then Liverpool fitted her with guns and men. To the Western Isles she then set forth to destroy the commerce of the North. And to Cherbourg town she came one day to collect her count of prize money. But those sailor boys they met their doom when the Kearsage sailed in view. For a cannonball that fateful day shot the Alabama's stern away. Off the three-mile limit in '64 she sank and never did rise no more. The Western Isles are the Azores, where Semmes took on water and stores. Some years ago I came across a digitalised book written by one of the Alabama's officers about her career, which took her as far as the East Indies. I've had a look but can't find it now (no doubt it's still somewhere on the Net; I believe it was done by an Ivy League University) but among many interesting details he mentioned that about a third of her crew were British. The British Government turned a blind eye to her construction and was generally pro-Confederate because the Union blockade of the southern cotton ports was damaging the valuable English textile industry. During the war the Manchester mills had to import Indian cotton which was much inferior. In the duel in the Channel the Kearsage enjoyed two distinct advantages. One was that Winslow had prudently fitted her with chain armour which prevented a lot of damage; in fact Semmes later said that if he had known this he would have refused to fight. A second was that the Alabama's explosive ammunition had deteriorated. I saw somewhere a photo of the Kearsage's sternpost, which is preserved somewhere with an unexploded shell embedded in it. Once the Alabama's steering was hit her outside chance dwindled to zero. I notice that the earliest date of collection is 1925. Would that be Hugill's version? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Steve Gardham Date: 13 Aug 10 - 06:18 PM The version given by Duncan Emrich in 'Folklore on the American Land' 1972 is said to come from Dick Maitland but is different from the above version attributed to Maitland. I am informed that Emrich 'edited' some of his texts. FWIW here it is. I recognise the tune as the one I have heard and sung. When the Alabama's keel was laid R, A, r They laid the keel at Birkenhead Oh, r, A, r. She was built in the yard of Jonathan Laird She was built in the yard at Birkenhead And away down the Mersey she sailed one day And across to the westward she ploughed her way 'Twas at the island of Fayal Where she got her guns and crew on board Then away cross the watery world To sink, to burn, and to destroy All the Federal comers that came her way 'Twas in the harbour of Cherbourg one day There the little Kearsarge she did lay When Semmes and Winslow made the shore Winslow challenged Semmes out to sea He couldn't refuse, there was too many around Three miles outside of Cherbourg There the Kearsarge sunk her down below A rather strange concoction in which shunting of lines seems to have occurred. The lack of rhyme could easily have been remedied. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: GUEST,kendall Date: 13 Aug 10 - 07:38 PM I read a book on the life of the Alabama, very interesting. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Gibb Sahib Date: 13 Aug 10 - 10:05 PM This book review, from Feb. 1903, of Lubbock's ROUND THE HORN,,. (1903) purports that in it Lubbock mentions the "old favourite" chanty, "Roll, Alabama, roll." http://books.google.com/books?id=X2tIAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA206&dq=%22roll,+alabama%22&hl However, I am unable to locate it in Lubbock's book itself! (?) In any case, FWIW the date of 1903 trumps The Traditional Ballad Index's "Earliest Date." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Joe Offer Date: 13 Aug 10 - 10:14 PM Hi, Gibb- Be mindful that the "earliest date" in the Traditional Ballad Index is the earliest date referenced to in the sources indexed. The Ballad Index does not ordinarily attempt to determine the date of composition of a song. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Les from Hull Date: 14 Aug 10 - 10:47 AM JeffB The book written by Semmes (Alabama's captain) is available on the internet |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Les from Hull Date: 14 Aug 10 - 10:52 AM Memoirs of service afloat - Admiral Raphael Semmes (sorry, should have been included above) Incidently, Semmes makes no mention of any particular shot from the Kearsage doing any significant damage (shot from the forward pivot that day...) only the cumulative shell fire that sank Alabama. He mentions one shot that carried away his CSN ensign, which he quickly replaced |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Leadfingers Date: 17 Aug 10 - 12:06 PM I will be good for a change and NOT bring up the more recent song about the Alabama's sister ship , the Mississippi - Ask Trayton for that one ! LOL |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Les from Hull Date: 17 Aug 10 - 12:46 PM Charley - CSS Shenandoah was formally the Sea King. Alabama was launched very quietly and named 'Enrica' at that time. The Mississippi wasn't a sister ship of Alabama, she was a riverine/coastal ironclad that was never finished and burnt to prevent capture. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 17 Aug 10 - 01:45 PM Error in my post of 9:48pm. The Ensign from the Alabama at the Tennessee State Museum probably was made by the seamen aboard the raider. Checking the Roster of the ship when she was sunk off Cherbourg, there were 22 from the British Isles and 3 from Prussia. Data for a number of crew members not given in the roster on the CSS Alabama Association website. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Charley Noble Date: 17 Aug 10 - 02:19 PM Les- Thanks for the correction with regard to the Sea King. I shouldn't be so lazy to consult books that are so handy. I'm with Q with regard to the origin of the song "there comes the Alabama" and no doubt the words and verses changed over time. But the arrival of the Alabama is what inspired the song. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 17 Aug 10 - 02:21 PM The Journal of George Townley Fullam..., first printed as a supplement to the South Africa Advertiser and Mail, Cape Town, contains interesting details of the prizes taken by the Alabama. When Capt. Semmes took charge, the Confederate ensign was at the peak, the English St. George's at the fore, and the pennant on the main. "To all prizes we had captured we hoisted English colours, and exchanged them for Confederate as soon as the boarding officer gained the vessel's deck." The information about the use of English colors is new to me. A piece of the journal is on line, google books; it does not include the part about stops at Cape Town. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 09 Nov 10 - 05:45 AM A large mural depicting her exploits can be seen at the East bound rest area of Alabama's Interstate 10 |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Lighter Date: 09 Nov 10 - 06:20 AM It's fascinating to see three different texts of this shanty from one singer - Dick Maitland of New York City (1857-1942). He was recorded by Alan Lomax in 1941 and by Richard Doerflinger at around the same time. I believe that the version printed by Emrich is the one Maitland sang for Lomax, but my Emrich book is temporarily invisible. Doerflinger says (p. 36)that Maitland "sang the first version fairly consistently, but would also make up long semiextemporaneous versions, one of which follows. Rhyme, while preferred, wasn't strictly required. Some shantymen fell back on delayed rhymes or assonance." I don't know what a "delayed rhyme" is unless he means "extra syllables." Anyway, M's version II in Doerflinger begins with eight numbered stanzas and concludes with four unnumbered ones. I don't why. Perhaps he sang the numbered stanzas every time but the unnumbered ones only now and then. D says that M learned to sing "The Alabama" "on the schoolship _Mercury_ in 1870 or 1871." That would make it one of the first shanties he learned. That would also be the earliest posited date. M was almost 85 when he was recorded. I believe that the usual revival version was written by somebody in the 1950s. Hermes Nye sang it on "Songs of the Civil War" in 1954 without giving a source. Colcord's version: When the Alabama's keel was laid RAR They laid her keel at Birkenhead, ORAR Oh, she was built in Birkenhead, Built in the yard of Jonathan Laird. Away down the Mesrey she rolled one day, And across the "Western" she ploughed her way. Colcord notes, "I have never been able to collect more than the fragment which my father used to sing." It seems not to have been very common. Carpenter seems not to have encountered it. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: GUEST Date: 09 Nov 10 - 06:49 AM One of the Alabama's guns is on display at Cherbourg's Cite de la Mer Museum. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Lighter Date: 09 Nov 10 - 08:09 AM No text is given, but "Roll, Alabama, roll" is mentioned as an "old favourite" sea shanty (along with "We'll roll the old chariot along") in the _Athenaeum_ (London) (Feb. 14, 1903), p. 206. That seems to be the earliest unquestionable attestation of the shanty's existence. Colcord published her father's three stanzas in 1924. The ship was constructed at the shipyard of William and John [not "Jonathan"] Laird & Co. in Birkenhead. Before christening she was referred to by her keel number, "290" (not "292"). |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Charley Noble Date: 09 Nov 10 - 01:04 PM The tune that's usually used for "Roll, Alabama, Roll" seems related to another traditional shanty titled "Roll the Cotton Down," as pointed out by Hugill in SHANTIES OF THE SEVEN SEAS, p. 126. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: GUEST Date: 10 Nov 10 - 12:24 AM The Alabama was chartered as a British vessel. After she sank, the British government raised objections with the Union. When the war was over, diplomats from both countries met in Geneva, Switzerland to work out their differences. It was the first international law case ever. The decision was in favor of the U.S. and there is a square in Geneva that is called "Alabama" in honor of the trial. I can never remember whether it was Monet or Manet who did a painting of people watching the battle between the Alabama and the Kearsarge from the shore. But I know one of them did. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 10 Nov 10 - 09:36 AM "Over the next two years, the Alabama sank a total of 69 Union merchant vessels, formally valued at $6,547,609." So how many people lost their lives, murdered in cold blood by the crew of the Alabama? Or is it politically incorrect to wonder about that? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Lighter Date: 10 Nov 10 - 10:54 AM That's an interesting question. If you restrict "murder" to noncombatants, i.e., civilian passengers and crews, the answer may be none. International naval practice held that merchant vessels could be seized or destroyed only after the passengers, crew, and ship's papers had been placed in a position of safety. That generally meant they were placed in lifeboats with provisions, or even taken on board the aggressor until she could reach a civilized port. The use of the submarine in World War I changed that. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: GUEST Date: 10 Nov 10 - 06:29 PM I think the case was that, far from the British raising objections, the US government sued the UK for reparations because HM government had knowingly allowed a warship to be built for a combatant nation in defiance of international law (Britain supposedly being a neutral country). The British government supported the Confederates because of the valuable cotton trade which made the mill owners of Lancashire very rich. The case dragged on for years (until about 1893 I think) but the US was eventually awarded $15.5m. As Lighter says, passengers and crews of merchant ships were removed before the ship was fired. Kell mentions people being brought aboard the Alabama in his book. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Greg F. Date: 10 Nov 10 - 06:33 PM Nothin' to do with nothin', but I went to graduate school with a lineal descendant of Raphael Semmes. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Gibb Sahib Date: 02 Mar 12 - 05:28 AM Recently was looking over this song again. Lighter wrote, I believe that the usual revival version was written by somebody in the 1950s. Hermes Nye sang it on "Songs of the Civil War" in 1954 without giving a source. It seems possible that Nye's version was the one. My guess is that Nye adapted one of Maitland's versions in Doerflinger's book. Most of the verses read as "improved" versions of what Maitland sang off-the-cuff. Nye's album also included "Santa Anna," in a version that is identical to Maitland's and the orthography in Doerflinger's text. The same lyrics have become standard since then. If anyone has an on-line link to a sample, I'd like to hear Peter Bellamy and Louis Killen's rendition (recorded in 1971). I am wondering if they were the people to introduce the rubato or slowed down choruses. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Charley Noble Date: 02 Mar 12 - 08:57 AM The Bill Bonyun Heirloom recording titled "The Civil War" was produced in 1961. Folk song collector and singer Frank Warner led the song and credits his source as The Harris Collection, Brown University. According to the track notes" "Roll Alabama Roll" is a Civil War variant of the Negro roustabout shanty "Roll the Cotton Down. It is a beautifully concise life story of the great Confederate raider. Here are the lyrics as included with the recording: When the Alabama's keel was laid -- Roll, Alabama, roll! It was laid in the yard of Jonathan Laird -- Roll, Alabama, roll! 'Twas laid in the yard of Jonathan Laird -- Roll, Alabama, roll! 'Twas laid in the town of Birkenhead -- Roll, Alabama, roll! Down the Mersey ways she rolled then -- Roll, Alabama, roll! Liverpool fitted her with guns and men -- Roll, Alabama, roll! From the Western Isles she sailed forth -- Roll, Alabama, roll! To destroy the commerce of the North -- Roll, Alabama, roll! To Cherbourg port she sailed one day -- Roll, Alabama, roll! To take her count of prize money -- Roll, Alabama, roll! Many a sailor lad saw his doom -- Roll, Alabama, roll! When the Kearsarge hoved into view -- Roll, Alabama, roll! A ball from the forward pivot that day -- Roll, Alabama, roll! Shot the Alabama's stern away -- Roll, Alabama, roll! Off the three-mile limit in sixty-four -- Roll, Alabama, roll! The Alabama went to her grave -- Roll, Alabama, roll! Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Gibb Sahib Date: 02 Mar 12 - 04:09 PM Thanks, Charley, that's very interesting. Warner's lyrics you posted are an exact match to Nye's from the 1954 album. Perhaps Nye learned it from Warner? Incidentally, what exactly is in the Harris Collection (he wonders aloud...)? Some chanteys? On the other hand -- any takers on my idea that Nye (or another) spruced up Maitland's verses? Sure, the story would be fairly consistent, but also there seems IMO a good correlation between the verses in the Maitland and Nye/Warner versions, whereas the latter takes the form of what would be ideally intended (!) by the former if it were thought out. *** On another note, I was kindly directed to a way to hear Bellamy/Killen's recording of 1971. It has the odd (from a working chanty perspective) patter and s l o w down style. That style was not present on the Critic's Group recording from just a year earlier. Swan Arcade's recording from 1972 has a slight bit of this feature, but not really -- it is in a chanty style. This does not prove that Bellamy/Killen started it, but I'd think their version was influential. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Dave Earl Date: 02 Mar 12 - 04:36 PM Yes Charley, That's the version I've been singing for I don't know how many years, Dave |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Charley Noble Date: 02 Mar 12 - 04:56 PM I'll have to transcribe the version I heard Sarah Gray, Owen McBride and Friends of Fiddlers Green sing around 1968 when they did a concert at our folk club in East Lansing, Michigan; it's on an old cassette tape. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Gibb Sahib Date: 02 Mar 12 - 05:10 PM Charley, I would be interested to know whether the folks you last mentioned had presented the song "as a chantey." The Nye (1954) and Warner (1961) renditions seem to be presented as "a song of the Civil War" -- which is of course not mutually exclusive, but does make some difference in who might sing / consume their music. When, I wonder, did people first start re-singing it in the framework as a chantey? Critic's Group chantey form came in 1970. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 02 Mar 12 - 05:11 PM Hold on to your gorges, gentlemen. The Harris Collection is described on BU's website as follows: "The Harris Collection of American Poetry and Plays is composed of approximately 250,000 volumes of American and Canadian poetry, plays, and vocal music dating from 1609 to the present day. It is perhaps the largest and most comprehensive collection of its kind in any research library. The works of most well-known (and many thousands of little-known) American and Canadian poets and playwrights, from the 18th century to the present day, are held comprehensively. There are significant holdings of early American literature, hymnals, songsters, little magazines, contemporary fine printing, extensive collections on Walt Whitman and Edgar Allan Poe, women's writings, gay and lesbian literature, modern first editions, Yiddish-American literature, and French-Canadian literature. The Collection is fully cataloged, with records available in Josiah, the Library's online catalog.. Includes periodicals, broadsides, recordings, films, electronic resources, manuscripts, prints and photographs." No mention of shanty manuscripts or recordings. Except: "Songs of the Civil War [electronic resource]...N[ew] Y[ork] C[ity] : Folkways Records, [1960]." Sung by Hermes Nye. Unfortunately typical. Or am I being "too cynical"? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Gibb Sahib Date: 02 Mar 12 - 05:54 PM So Lighter, May I interest you in my "Nye spruced up Maitland" theory? :) |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 02 Mar 12 - 06:01 PM Works for me. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Charley Noble Date: 02 Mar 12 - 09:15 PM Interesting. I'll have to listen to the record again but my impression was that it was done in shanty format. Frank Warner, of course, was a collector of ballads and other traditional songs, and was well known for presenting the songs as closely as he could in the way his informants presented them. I've never run across Hermes Nye before. What do we actually know about him? Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Gibb Sahib Date: 02 Mar 12 - 11:37 PM Liner notes for Nye's album can be downloaded here: http://www.folkways.si.edu/albumdetails.aspx?itemid=930 He wasn't a scholar or anything like that. He probably just worked up versions from wherever he could find them. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Charley Noble Date: 03 Mar 12 - 11:50 AM Gibb- There's more to this story about who Hermes Nye was, I'm convinced. In my Google searches there seems to be some association with Richard Dyer-Bennet, and I wouldn't be surprised to learn he also was associated with Frank Warner, in addition to Maitland. When it comes to creative work, no one really functions in a vacuum. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 03 Mar 12 - 08:23 PM But no matter how you slice it, the familiar "lyrics look like a 1950s pastiche. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 04 Mar 12 - 03:30 PM Lyrics rom the Smithsonian Folkways liner notes (mentioned above) Roll Alabama Roll When the Alabama's keel was laid, Roll, Alabama, roll. 'Twas laid in the yard of Jonathan Laird, Roll, Alabama, roll. "Twas laid in the yard of Jonathan Laird, Roll, Alabama, roll. 'Twas laid in the town of Birkenhead, Roll, Alabama, roll. ------------------- Down the Mersey ways she rolled then, Liverpool filled her with guns and men. From the Western Isles she sailed forth, To destroy the commerce of the North. To Cherbourg port she sailed one day, To take her count of prize money. Many a sailor lad he saw his doom, When the Ke-arsarge it hove in view. Till a ball from the forward pivot that day Shot the Alabama's stern away. Off the three mile limit in '65 The Alabama went to her grave. The notes include clippings from the papers of the times, contemporary illustrations, and elucidation. Very interesting, an album worth having. Ballads of the Civil War, sung by Hermes Nye with Guitar." FP5004, Folkways. 1954, 21 songs, all lyrics in liner. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 04 Mar 12 - 03:46 PM Brief note on Hermes Nye, from http://neglectedbooks.com/?p=193 From a review of "Fortune Is a Woman," a novel of Nye's. "Hermes Nye was born in Chicago, but became a legendary East Texas character as a lawyer, folksinger, folklorist, novelist, humorist and local liberal activist. Nye clearly never took anything, including himself, too seriously. When, in the midst of the 1960s folk boom, he published a guide to folk songs, he gave it a triply-redundant title that included his own punchline: How to be a folksinger; How to sing and present folksongs; or, The folksinger's guide; or, Eggs I have laid." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Peter C Date: 04 Mar 12 - 04:14 PM I have a great EP 45 rpm of the Tom Topping Band doing this song, I think on 'Folk on Two' for an event perhaps at Liverpool/Birkenhead long before I was born! I will make a MP3 of it when I have a moment |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: GUEST Date: 04 Mar 12 - 04:48 PM The main reason I accepted this as a chantey/shanty when I first heard it is the repeated single burden, "Roll, Alabama, Roll," which seems to match the pattern of other chanteys and similar work songs, whether the burden is "Go down, ye blood-red roses, go down," or "Roll the woodpile down" or whatever. And yes, I know you get repeated single burdens in non-worksongs as well, since they work well with any call-and-response song. And of course you get burdens of two alternating lines in chanteys as well, as with "Away, you rolling river/.../Across the wide Missouri." But it's my impression that I've heard a far higher proportion of single-line burdens in chanteys and other work songs than in other ballads, lyrics, and other traditional songs. --Nonie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Gibb Sahib Date: 04 Mar 12 - 07:45 PM Just to add to the historiography of this song -- though not adding much info: Here's another source that mentions it, which I didn't have in my notes earlier and I don't think has been noted around here: Dawson, Alec John. 1907. _The Genteel A.B._ London: E. Grant Richards. Dawson's novel mentions "Roll, Alabama, Roll" by title only, along with the titles of several other chanties and the lyrics of some. The funny thing is that all of the lyrics he gives match Masefield's collection of 1906, verbatim. The way he works in the chanties is slightly off, as if he wasn't terribly familiar with them. The interesting thing is that every chanty he mentions was present in Masefield's book (he even uses idiosyncratic titles of Masefield) EXCEPT for "RAR". If Dawson's knowledge was only text based, and the only source we've seen to mention RAR up to that point is the 1903 review in the Atheneum (of Bullen's book), was there another pre-1907 publication out there? On the other hand, Dawson evidently made a couple voyages as a merchant sailor. Based on his Wikipedia article, I'd guess those occurred in the late 1880s, and included voyages to Australia. So it seems he probably would have had some familiarity with practical chanties, and for whatever reason elected to use Masefield's info when he wrote. RAR may have been one song in particular that he remembered from personal experience. The Wikipedia article mentions that Dawson also once wrote reviews from The Atheneum. There seems to me a good chance that he was the anonymous reviewer of Bullen's book, who lamented it did not mention RAR -- perhaps a pet favourite? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 05 Mar 12 - 02:19 PM From the Athenaeum, 1903, p. 206, a brief cut reproduced of the page, so incomplete reference: ".....open book for all to read and understand, it contains many chanties, but seagoing readers will miss such old favourites as "Roll, Alabama, Roll," and "We'll Roll the Old Chariot Along." The work may be cordially recommended." Google Books, see Gibb Sahib link of this fragment of a review of Lubbock's book, 13 Aug 10. Others mention that this was a Civil War time song, but I have found no citations. Colcord suggested that the song was based on "Roll the Cotton Down." R. B. Nicol published a broadside in 1864, "The Fate of the Pirate Alabama," with the tune "The Heights of Alma" (Copy at American Memory, Gibson Bros. Printers, Washington, D. C.). No similarity in text. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Charley Noble Date: 05 Mar 12 - 07:53 PM Gibb- "Dawson's novel mentions "Roll, Alabama, Roll" by title only, along with the titles of several other chanties and the lyrics of some. The funny thing is that all of the lyrics he gives match Masefield's collection of 1906, verbatim. The way he works in the chanties is slightly off, as if he wasn't terribly familiar with them. " Are you suggesting that "Roll Alabama Roll" can be found in Masefield's Sailor's Garland, 1906? If so I can't find it there among the traditional shanties. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Gibb Sahib Date: 05 Mar 12 - 08:40 PM Charley, Read the next line in my post! :) In short, no. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 06 Mar 12 - 02:31 PM The old hymn "Roll, Jordan, Roll" pops into my mind but I can see no connection other than similarity of title form. From Ballanta-(Taylor), St. Helena Island spirituals- Chorus: Roll, Jerdon, roll Roll, Jerdon, roll My Soul arise in heben Lawd To hear sweet Jerdon roll. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 06 Mar 12 - 02:34 PM Well, Alabama and the Jordan River are both geographical locations. And why would you want the ship Alabama to "roll"? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 06 Mar 12 - 02:40 PM "I guess I'll just be rollin' along..." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: GUEST Date: 31 Jan 17 - 09:59 AM Does anybody know of a recording of Roll Alabama Roll sung by Pete Hicks/Skinners Rats/Crayfolk? I have Skinners Rats and Crayfolk on vinyl, but Roll Alabama Roll is on neither. Dave Webb (Swinging the Lead.) |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: GUEST,Wee Jock Date: 01 Feb 17 - 07:10 AM Dave, John Matthews of Border Crossing here i have a CD of Pete Hicks called Nice Arse which was done after Pete died and that includes Roll Alabama Roll plus some other great stuff. Cheers John |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: GUEST Date: 02 Feb 17 - 10:33 AM Thank you John. That is brilliant. "Nice arse" was a phrase he used often. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Lighter Date: 08 Mar 18 - 08:46 PM Here's another version (rewritten by Oscar Brand on the basis of Colcord and Doerflinger). It comes from the 1960 album "Civil War Almanac: Rebels," sung by the Cumberland Three. They called it "Number Two-Nine-Two." The Cumberland Three were sometimes rousing performers on the Kingston Trio pattern. In fact, John Stewart was a Kingston alum. You can hear the song here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Qi1KQi1jjE When the Alabama's keel was laid, Roll, Alabama, roll! It was in the city of Birkenhead, Roll, Alabama, roll! They called her Number Two-Nine-Two... In honor of the merchants of Liverpool.... Roll, Alaba-ama! Roll, Alabama! Ro-o-o-ol! Roll, Alaba-ama! Roll, Alabama, roll! To the Western Isles she made her run... To be fitted out with shot and gun.... From sixty-two to sixty-four... She took sixty Yankee ships or more.... Roll, Alaba-ama! [etc.] It was early on a summer's day.... Cap Semmes he docked in Sherbrook [sic] Bay.... It was there she met the little Kearsarge... With Captain Winslow in her charge.... Roll, Alaba-ama! [etc.] Outside the three-mile limit they fought... Brave Navy steel and British shot.... Till a shot from the forward pivot, they say... Took the Alabama's gear away.... Then the British did the crewmen save... From sharing their vessel's watery grave.... Roll, Alaba-ama! [etc.] |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Lighter Date: 09 Mar 18 - 09:22 AM The following lines come to mind. The process of elimination suggests I'm responsible for them, but I have no conscious recollection of it. I can't even say how long I've "known" that. Many a sailorman was drowned... But Semmes escaped in the little Deerhound. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: GUEST,Adirondack Fred Date: 09 Mar 18 - 09:23 AM I never could understand why a song about a Confederate pirate murdering innocent merchant seamen was so popular with anyone other than the neo-Conederate crowd. We don't get many U.S. songs praising the gallant German U-Boats & their crews. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: GUEST Date: 09 Mar 18 - 11:03 AM A murderous band, killing innocent civilians? I don't think so: from Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSS_Alabama Upon the completion of her seven expeditionary raids, Alabama had been at sea for 534 days out of 657, never visiting a single Confederate port. She boarded nearly 450 vessels, captured or burned 65 Union merchant ships, and took more than 2,000 prisoners without a single loss of life from either prisoners or her own crew<\B><\U>. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: GUEST Date: 09 Mar 18 - 11:40 AM Ah yes. Blog-O-Paedia. and took more than 2,000 prisoners Oh, well that's all right then......how many died in Confederate prison camps like Andersonville? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: GUEST,Ebor Fiddler Date: 09 Mar 18 - 03:17 PM How would they have got there? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: radriano Date: 09 Mar 18 - 03:38 PM Every time I hear someone sing this it is in 2/4 or 4/4. It's interesting to note that Hugill, in his Shanties from the Seven Seas, gives it in 3/4, or waltz time. Sounds good that way. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: GUEST Date: 09 Mar 18 - 04:59 PM How would they have got there? Possibly because that's where prisoners taken were sent- that and other hell holes like Salisbury- unless they were African Americans who were summarily killed on the spot. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Lighter Date: 09 Mar 18 - 07:01 PM Note for singers: All prisoners taken by Semmes and the Alabama were released to neutral ships or in neutral ports - as was prescribed by the law of war in the nineteenth century. That included over 100 Union sailors captured from USS Hatteras at Galveston, the only warship sunk by the Alabama. These were "paroled," as legal language had it, in Jamaica. That is, they were released on their solemn oath not to rejoin the war. Noncombatant prisoners were released without an oath. After the war, the Government of the United States found no legal basis to try Semmes or any member of his crew for any crime. In the view of the U.S. Government, they had not violated the laws of war. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: GUEST,A. Fred Date: 10 Mar 18 - 09:59 AM In the view of the U.S. Government, they had not violated the laws of war. No, they just committed treason by waging war against the United States to protect slavery and white supremacy. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Lighter Date: 11 Mar 18 - 06:26 PM Pedantry alert. Non-pedants stay out!: Doerflinger published a third text and tune in the Southern Literary Messenger (Oct., 1939), pp. 696-97. It's clearly from Maitland, but - as was usual at the time - not even the singer's name is mentioned. Doerflinger says, "The following stanzas were all sung by the same shantyman, but on two different occasions" (i.e., in differing but overlapping versions). Collected in 1938, it appears to be a combination of most of the two versions Doerflinger later printed in his book. Alan Lomax recorded one more version from Maitland in 1940, published in Duncan Emrich's "Folklore on the American Land" (1972). After the first two stanzas about the keel and Jonathan Laird, it becomes noticeably different: And away down the Mersey she sailed one day.... And across to the Westward she ploughed her way.... 'Twas at the island of Fayal.... Where she got her guns and crew on board.... Then away across the watery world.... To sink, to burn, and to destroy.... All the Federal comers that came her way.... 'Twas in the harbor of Cherbourg one day.... There the little Kearsarge she did lay.... When Semmes and Winslow made the shore.... Winslow challenged Semmes out to sea.... He couldn't refuse, there was too many around.... Three miles outside of Cherbourg.... There the Kearsarge sunk her down below.... Maitland said he'd learned the shanty when he was about fifteen, in 1870-71, nearly seventy years before he was recorded. I suggest that in all these cases he was struggling to remember the words, but much of the time could only summon up their substance. The specificity of the historical detail - possibly unique in a chantey - may help to explain Maitland's plural versions as well as the inability of Colcord's father to remember more than the lines about the keel, Birkenhead, Laird, and the Mersey. Hugill's version (learned in 1925) has most of Maitland's substance, but (except for a misprinted line) everything rhymes! Maitland appears to be the only source for the obscure detail that Alabama had originally been called Hull No. 292 (in fact, "290"). A headline in the San Francisco Daily Evening Bulletin (Nov. 8, 1862) reads, Doings of "No. 290" or the "Alabama." The article never explains the name, implying that it was well known at the time. Several other papers mention "No. 290" in the fall of 1862. As has been mentioned, a further version, Nye's, which he sang in 1954 on a Folkways LP, is largely rewritten from Doerflinger. A search of various newspaper databases turns up no early mention of the chantey. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Steve Gardham Date: 12 Mar 18 - 10:17 AM Might be relevant. Colcord gives the 3 stanza version in 'Roll and Go' 1924 and the same 3 stanzas in Songs of American Sailormen 1938, but in the notes to the latter adds 'which my father used to sing'. Her father was Lincoln A. Colcord captain of the barque Harvard from 1891 to 98 . |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Steve Gardham Date: 12 Mar 18 - 10:34 AM BTW at least 3 of the singers in our group Spare Hands sing it as a chantey and when we perform at our Maritime Museum we usually try to give it an airing as there is a painting there with the Alabama and the Kearsage in it. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Lighter Date: 12 Mar 18 - 11:17 AM Hi, Steve. Ordinary Seaman Frank Townshend, described as an "Irish fiddler and wit," wrote a poem on the fight between his ship and USS Hatteras. The poem was set to a variant of the tune "Brennan on the Moore" not long ago by Dan Milner, Frank Coffin, and the fortuitously named Jeff Davis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZF3swX6kv_A They also perform the parlor song "The Alabama," by E. King and F. W. Rosier (1864): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zw-QY5s4FHs And R. B. Nicol's 1864 broadside "The Fate of the Pirate Alabama": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7lFv50E-Ec The 97th Regimental String Band has recorded Frank Wilder's "Alabama and Kearsarge" (1864): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lmp4DLzHveI I don't detect any real similarities between any of these songs and the chantey. Unfortunately. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Steve Gardham Date: 12 Mar 18 - 11:40 AM I have a reference to 'The Last of the Alabama' broadside, printed by Johnson of Philadelphia. First line 'Off Cherbourg port one summer's day' in Edwin Wolf 'American Song Sheets, Slips and Ballads' 1963 Vol II. I think it's just a reference rather than a copy. I'll try to find it. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Lighter Date: 12 Mar 18 - 11:59 AM Steve, here's the complete text: https://digital.librarycompany.org/islandora/object/digitool%3A46701?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=ea74a38184da74823926&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=46&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=17 |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Steve Gardham Date: 12 Mar 18 - 03:17 PM Hi Jon Thanks for that. I tried cut and paste into my browser but all I got was a chat room or a list of meeting minutes. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Steve Gardham Date: 12 Mar 18 - 03:30 PM Okay, got it, thanks. Tried to print some of the broadsides off but they're printing pretty faint. Barely readable. I'll have to see if I can save them into something that will allow me to strengthen the ink. Any suggestions welcome. I have a Canon MG4250. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Steve Gardham Date: 12 Mar 18 - 04:30 PM As a matter of interest where does the name 'Kearsarge' come from? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: beardedbruce Date: 12 Mar 18 - 04:48 PM USS Kearsarge, a Mohican-class sloop-of-war, is best known for her defeat of the Confederate commerce raider CSS Alabama during the American Civil War. Kearsarge was the only ship of the United States Navy named for Mount Kearsarge in New Hampshire. Subsequent ships were later named Kearsarge in honor of the ship. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: beardedbruce Date: 12 Mar 18 - 04:54 PM Thread drift- USS Kearsarge (BB-5), the lead ship of her class of pre-dreadnought battleships, was a United States Navy ship, named after the sloop-of-war Kearsarge. Her keel was laid down by the Newport News Shipbuilding Company of Virginia, on 30 June 1896. She was launched on 24 March 1898, sponsored by the wife of Rear Admiral Herbert Winslow, and commissioned on 20 February 1900. Between 1903 and 1907 Kearsarge served in the North Atlantic Fleet, and from 1907 to 1909 she sailed as part of the Great White Fleet. In 1909 she was decommissioned for modernization, which was finished in 1911. In 1915 she served in the Atlantic, and between 1916 and 1919 she served as a training ship. She was converted into a crane ship in 1920, renamed Crane Ship No. 1 in 1941, and sold for scrap in 1955. She was the only United States Navy battleship to not be named after a state. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Kearsarge_(BB-5)#/media/File:Kearsarge_(BB5),_converted_to_craneship_in_1920._Port_bow,_at_wha https://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?p=kearsarge+crane&fr=yfp-t&imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ibiblio.org%2Fhyperwar%2FOnlin |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Steve Gardham Date: 12 Mar 18 - 06:34 PM 100 |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Steve Gardham Date: 12 Mar 18 - 06:42 PM Rear Admiral Herbert Winslow, is he related to or the same as the Winslow the captain of the Kearsarge? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Lighter Date: 12 Mar 18 - 07:37 PM John was captain of Kearsarge. Herbert was his son. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: beardedbruce Date: 13 Mar 18 - 08:04 AM From wiki: Herbert Winslow (1848 – September 25, 1914) was a rear admiral in the United States Navy. He was born in 1848 in Roxbury, Massachusetts to John Ancrum Winslow. He entered the Navy Academy in July 1865 and graduated four years later. He married Elizabeth Maynard (December 1854 - March 3, 1899), daughter of Lafayette Maynard, in 1876. He commanded the USS Fern at the Battle of Santiago de Cuba on July 3, 1898. His wife died in 1899.[3] He retired on September 22, 1910 on account of his age and moved to Cherbourg, France. He was a hereditary companion of the Massachusetts Commandery of the Military Order of the Loyal Legion of the United States by right of his father's service in the Union Navy during the American Civil War. He died in Florence, Italy on September 25, 1914. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: beardedbruce Date: 13 Mar 18 - 08:32 AM Some info on John A Winslow: He entered the navy as a midshipman on 1 February 1827, became a passed midshipman, 10 June 1833, and was commissioned a lieutenant on 9 February 1839. During the Mexican War he took part in the expeditions against Tabasco, Tampico, and Tuxpan, and was present at the fall of Vera Cruz. For his gallantry in action he was allowed to have command of the schooner USS Union, which had been captured at Tampico in November 1846 and was taken into service, but she was poorly equipped and was lost on a reef off Vera Cruz on 16 December 1846. While serving at Tabasco during the Mexican-American War, he was commended for gallantry in action by Commodore Matthew Perry. >>>>>> He shared a shipboard cabin with his later adversary, Raphael Semmes. The two officers served together on Cumberland, Semmes as the ship's flag lieutenant and Winslow as a division officer. The two, however, never mention this fact in their respective autobiographies.<<<<<< He was executive of the sloop Saratoga in the Gulf of Mexico in 1848-1849, at the Boston Navy Yard in 1849-1850, and in the frigate St. Lawrence of the Pacific Squadron, in 1851-1855. He was promoted to commander, 14 September 1855. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Steve Gardham Date: 14 Mar 18 - 05:51 PM Fascinating stuff. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Lighter Date: 22 Mar 18 - 11:59 AM Another modern version. It is sung by Hank Cramer on his album "The Shantyman." Pretty good for a rewrite, but the final stanza makes the Alabama sound more like a submarine than a surface vessel! In eighteen hundred sixty-one, Roll, Alabama, roll! The Civil War had just begun, Oh, roll, Alabama, roll! At Birkenhead her keel was laid.... Her hull of the finest oak was made.... In sixty-two she sallied forth.... To destroy the commerce of the North.... It was many the Yankee prize she seized.... To become the terror of the seas.... In a port in France in sixty-four.... For to give her crew some leave ashore.... Up sailed the little Kearsarge to say.... "You're a fightin' ship, come fight with me!" They sallied forth for a fight at sea.... The pride of the North and the South Navee.... At the three-mile limit they fought that day.... Alabama's stern was shot away.... It was many the sailor met his doom.... When she sank into her watery tomb.... Off of Cherbourg, France, in sixty-four.... The Alabama rose no more.... |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Lighter Date: 27 Mar 18 - 09:15 AM Case closed: Irwin Silber's "Songs of the Civil War" (1960) prints "Roll, Alabama, Roll" in the form "as sung by Hermes Nye." The text comes from Nye's 1954 Folkways album. According to Silber's source notes (p. 367), "Hermes Nye tells me that this is his own free adaptation of printed versions." In other words, Nye rewrote the lyrics on the inspiration of the texts of Colcord and Doerflinger. The chantey, by the way, may or may not date from the Civil War itself. Maitland said he learned it in 1870-71. In 1869, five years after her sinking, the Alabama was again in the news owing to American claims against Great Britain for damages done by Alabama and other British-built Confederate raiders to American shipping during the war (the "Alabama Claims"). In 1872 an international commission awarded the U.S. $15.5 million in damages to be paid by Great Britain. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: GUEST,henryp Date: 15 Nov 20 - 06:38 AM MET150; The "Kearsarge" at Boulogne, Edouard Manet, 1864. During the American Civil War, the United States warship Kearsarge made headlines after sinking the Confederate raider Alabama off the coast of France. Manet did not witness firsthand the widely-covered event but devoted two paintings to the subject: a scene of the naval battle and this picture, prompted by his subsequent visit to the victorious ship at anchor near Boulogne. They were his first depictions of a current event. Philadelphia Museum of Art; The Battle of the USS "Kearsarge" and the CSS "Alabama", Édouard Manet, 1864. Manet's first known seascape is an imaginative depiction of an American Civil War naval battle fought off the coast of France, near Cherbourg, on June 19, 1864. In the distance, the C.S.S. Alabama, a scourge of Union shipping, sinks by her stern, clouds of smoke arising from a direct hit to her engines by the U.S.S. Kearsarge, which is mostly obscured from view. This picture was first displayed in the window of Alfred Cadart's print shop in Paris in July 1864, demonstrating Manet's quick response to a sensational and recent news event. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Lighter Date: 30 Sep 22 - 03:52 PM Interestingly enough, the tune of the chantey - especially the first line - bears an audible resemblance to that of the minstrel song "Alabama Joe." The two are not identical, but I'd say they were related. Hear 30 seconds of "Alabama Joe": https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0014DM1IQ/ref=dm_rwp_pur_lnd_albm_pm Is this is, Lighter? -Joe Offer- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHkkVY87ars |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 30 Sep 22 - 06:59 PM The 'Alabama Roll" is the origin of the infamous, sushi, "California Roll.". ( rice, fake crab, avacado, cucumber, sea weed scum) BOIL - 6 large corn husks until tender (6hours) remove and cool. Lay in kitchen sink. Reheat - leftover morning cornmeal mush until soft ( add water if dry) add 2TBS sorgum Spread mush over husks leaving a one inch margins. Sprinkle fried hog-back grease over: Sliced thin Okra Green tomatoes Meadow onions Roll and tie in husks. Fry in lard until crispy |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Dave the Gnome Date: 06 Oct 22 - 04:12 AM I have a set of old encyclopedias which give a near contemporary account of how the new US government successfully sued the British government after winning the civil war for harbouring the Alabamha. I am away at the moment but will post the details when I get back at weekend. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Dave the Gnome Date: 12 Oct 22 - 01:28 PM OK, here we go. Home now and quoting directly from "The National Encyclpedia" (A dictionary of Universal knowledge), published by William MacKenzie, 69 Ludgate Hill E.C. circa 1880. I have manually typed it as it was not possible to scan and OCR it so there may be some trascription errors. A lot of the grammar is as I have posted though and is very dated, as you will see! The Alabama and the Alabama claims The Alabama was a vessel which obtained great notoriety during the American civil war and was the cause of a long-standing difference between the United States and Great Britain. The vessel, built by Messrs. Laird of Birkenhead and sailed surreptitiously from the Mersey on the 31st July 1862, known then simply as “number 290”. She proceeded to Terceira, one of the Western Islands, where she was supplied with guns, coals and stores from a vessel which had been sent from London to meet her, and was then taken in charge of by Captain Semmes and some officers, who named her Alabama and hoisted the Confederate flag. The crew consisted of about eighty men and the armament of eight 32-pounders; and the vessel had been built chiefly for speed and for the purpose of capturing defenceless merchant ships, her subsequent career in nearly every part of the world was disastrous to the shipping of the Northern States. Several fast-sailing cruisers were sent after her, but she eluded all attempts at capture for nearly two years, in which time she had captured and burned sixty-five vessels, and destroyed property to the value of 4,000,000 dollars. In June 1864 however she was sunk near Cherbourg after a long engagement with the United States steamer Kearsage. Altogether the career of the Alabama was quite unprecedented and proved how much injury may be inflicted on a mercantile nation by means of a single vessel built almost entirely for speed. It was not so much by the amount of property destroyed, large as that was, as by the heavy insurance for the war risks to which she subjected them, and still more by the difficulty she caused them in obtaining freights, that the Alabama inflicted the greatest injury on American shipowners. She effected all this without once having entered a Confederate port; and the Americans of all classes never forgave the English for having allowed he to escape, in spite of information which had been given to the government as to her character, but which it seems was not acted upon until too late, in consequence of the illness of Sir J Harding, the Queens’s advocate. A convention agreed by Lord Clarendon and Mr Revardy Johnson, an American ambassador sent to England almost specifically for the purpose in 1868, proposing to refer the whole matter to arbitration, was almost unanimously rejected by the American senate – the general feeling in America being, that as a preliminary step, the English must admit they were wrong in acknowledging the Confederates as belligerents at all. Another attempt to re-open negotiations in 1869 led to no result; but in 1871 a joint high commission was was appointed to endeavour to put an end to the long-pending dispute. The commissioners met at Washington and after several conferences a treaty was concluded which referred the decision of the question to a court of arbitration composed of five persons; namely a representative from each of the two interested parties, and three members to be appointed – one by the King of Italy, a second by the president of the Swiss Confederation, and a third by the emperor of Brazil. The material bases of procedure was regulated by the treaty, and to the arbitrators, who were to assemble at Geneva, was left the task of thoroughly examining the American complaints. Added to this arrangement, in the treaty England expressed, in a friendly spirit, her regret at the escape of the Alabama and the acts she had committed. It was, of course, expected that the cause of the dispute would be settled in a manner satisfactory to the Americans; but for many months the matter was in a very critical position, in consequence of the American government bringing forward claims which the English could not admit. They wished for the arbitrators to decide not only on the direct losses which had been sustained through the vessel (including the expense of sending their men-of-war to endeavour to capture her), but also on the indirect losses – such as those arising from transfer of the American commercial navy to the English flag, from the increased cost of insurance, and even for expenses incurred through the prolongation of the war. Endeavours were made in vain to induce the American government to withdraw these “indirect claims” but they persistently refused. The British government, determined. if possible to save the treaty, and establish the principle of arbitration, despatched their representatives to Geneva at the time named – 15th of June 1872 – but would have withdrawn had not the “indirect claimes” been waived. Without, however, waiting to hear the English view of the matter at all, the arbitrators decided that these claims were such as they would not take cognisance of. They were accordingly withdrawn from by the American agent, after consultation with his government, and the arbitration proceeded with. The judgement of the arbitrators was signed on the 14th of September, 1872, and it awarded 15,500,000 dollars (about 8,229,166 UK pounds) to the American government in final satisfaction of all claims, including interest. If anyone wants a photo of the relevent pages I will happily oblige. One point I find interesting. I have heard versions where Liverpool or Glasgow supplied the guns and men. Here it says they were supplied by an English ship in the Azores. Well I never :-) |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: GUEST,JeffB Date: 13 Oct 22 - 11:33 AM Many years ago I read an account of her voyages written, I think, by one of her officers. If I recall correctly, she was taken to Terciera in the Azores by a crew recruited in Liverpool under the command of a temporary officer. In Terceira she was met by a supply ship carrying Semmes. This ship's last port of call might have been London but I think she must have been a vessel chartered by the Confederate government. The Alabama was victualled and her guns mounted, whereupon Semmes formally named her and took command. The Liverpool crew was invited to sign on, and many of them did. Again I am going by memory, but I believe that about a third of the Alabama's crew were English (or at any rate British), and that it was remarked that if they were treated harshly they were good seamen and fighters, but they became unruly and difficult to command if their officers showed any leniency. I think also that this book claimed that while she was being built it became an open secret that she was to be a Confederate raider, but the British government delayed in taking any action until she was under sail. The Alabama was of composite construction, i.e. iron ribs supoorting a wooden hull. She displaced about 1050 tons and was powered by sail and a 3oo hp engine. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll, Alabama Roll From: Dave the Gnome Date: 13 Oct 22 - 11:50 AM They had a display in New Brighton, where the old baths were I think, called 'The Alabama Project'. We did not go to see that, just got the ferry from Liverpool for the fun of it, but it caught my eye so I went to have a look. I was accosted by a young man who tried to dissuade me by asking why I wanted to support a slaving ship. I didn't argue just smiled and nodded. |
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