BS: For Real. I quit

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 03:47 PM

Is that the best you can do, Clinton? Lepus Rex is right about you. You're just not cut out for this level of trolling. Your main man is gone, and you don't seem to be able to stop crying about it. Don't worry, the pain will ease eventually.

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 03:59 PM

Yer not worth me doing better....

Yaaaawn

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 04:00 PM

Thank goodness for that.

Subject: Leave the Trolls Alone!!!!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 04:12 PM

You know, you can twist this thing however you want. You can accuse me of lying, if that's your preference - although my ex-wife says I'm compulsively honest and that's what gets me into a lot of trouble. You can argue that some people who attacked Martin did not squeal when he counterattacked. You can argue all sorts of things.

I stepped into this thread to attempt to correct some misconceptions, and I got attacked from all sides. In the process, I may have said some things incorrectly, but what what I said was my perception of the truth. I'm sorry if I said something that was not completely true, but I certainly did not intend to lie to or about anybody. That's not my style.

But that's not the point.

The point is that a long list of people fought repeatedly with Martin Gibson, despite my repeated requests that they leave him alone so that I could deal with him.

Ron Davies gave you a pretty comprehensive list of the combatants, and he gave you a pretty comprehensive list of the reasons why Martin Gibson was a problem here at Mudcat. Most of the combatants have spoken out in this thread and given their reasons for fighting with Martin. I will say emphatically that their reasons are valid - there is no justification whatsoever for what Martin Gibson has done at Mudcat over the last several months. His conduct has been deplorable. He should never have posted a single message at Mudcat. If I could make him disappear and never come back, I would do it in an instant - but it isn't that easy, and it means giving up a lot of the freedoms we like to have here.

George W. Bush gave a long list of reasons why Saddam Hussein was deplorable. Some of the items on Bush's list were questionable, but most are considered true by almost everyone. Saddam Hussein was indeed deplorable, and many Americans had the impression we could conquer Iraq in two weeks without killing or being killed, and all the liberated Iraqi citizens would live happily ever after as grateful allies of the United States. George Bush and many other Americans also believed that anybody who opposed attacking Iraq was just as deplorable as Saddam himself.

But back to Martin Gibson, who was deplorable in different ways. Our Mudcat combatants are certainly right in condemning Martin Gibson. In an interesting parallel with Mr. Bush, these combatants and many other Mudcatters also believe that anybody who opposed attacking Martin Gibson was just as deplorable as Martin himself. However, they are wrong in thinking that they can defeat any troll, including Martin Gibson, by taking the troll's bait and fighting back. They are also wrong if they think that Mudcat or Joe Offer supported or tolerated Martin Gibson in any way. Martin Gibson started out as a troll, but the continuous counterattacks by self-righteous Mudcatters turned him into a monster. No matter how valid the reasons Mudcatters had for their counterattacks, the fact of the matter is that trolls like Martin thrive on being attacked. They hope to be banned and censored by Websites, so they can find ways around the banning and censorship and prove how clever they are.

As I've said so many times before, the only way we can control people like Martin Gibson is with silence. If Martin comes back, leave him alone. I know there are many good reasons to do battle with Martin, but battling Martin will only make him more of a problem.

Leave the Trolls Alone

And the reason for leaving trolls alone is that attacking them only makes them sronger and more persistent. Attacking trolls is exactly what they want you to do - it's exactly what they crave. All sorts of people have suggested all sorts of things Mudcat should have done to control Martin Gibson - we've tried most of these tactics at one time or another, and found they didn't work. We HAVE found that we desperately need the cooperation of Mudcatters, that we need them to help us by leaving the trolls alone.
THAT is the point.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 04:41 PM

Nice way to avoid personal responsibility, Joe.

My problem with you here in this thread is that you have consistantly refused to treat me like a human being. You have made me responsible for the behavior of a lot of other people, whose behavior I have no control over (the term for that is "scapegoating", by the way). You have lied about and slandered me in numerous posts in this thread. You have even accused me of nefariously manipulating my husband to do my evil bidding for me. I wouldn't care about it if you were a troll. But you are supposedly not a troll. You are supposedly a person who has authority here in the Mudcat. And you were also once my friend. And for those reasons, the way you treat me has importance.

If you tell people that I have done something (like squealing like a stuck pig and complaining about you), because of your position of authority, many of them will believe you, whether it's true or not. The fact that you are not willing to apologise for the way you have behaved shows me that you are not a friend, and that you don't consider me even worthy of being treated like a person.

So that is what, in my opinion, makes you a very poor example as a person of authority in this forum. Effective people acknowlege their mistakes and they correct them. You have not done so. You do not appear to be willing to do so.

One more thing... there is a very big difference between a troll and a bully, and there is also a very big difference in the way these two kinds of behaviors need to be handled. Until you learn the difference between these two things, people like "Martin Gibson" will continue to make your job here much more difficult than it needs to be.

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 04:47 PM

amen!!

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 04:52 PM

" treat me like a human being"

Act like one, if you want to be treated like one...

Joe... just type the letters... I - m - s - o - r - r - y...

You don't even have to mean it in the least...

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 04:52 PM

Sorry, first "amen" is for joe...
This "amen" is for Carol......Ake

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: number 6
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 05:06 PM

1,000 !!!!

I'm laying early claim to that post now.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 05:14 PM

OK, Carol. The only things I know about you are that you are a very nice person to be with and deal with in person. I also know that time and time again, you are right in the middle of the nastiest fights that take place here at Mudcat, and that causes a big problem. I don't know why you seem to be driven to do that, because it is not at all like you are in person. You do seem to make a lot of noise when things don't go your way - whether that's "squealing like a stuck pig" is a matter of opinion, I guess.

I also know that I have repeatedly asked you not to fight, and you have continued to do so.

That's all I know, and all I have to say. I'm sorry that I said anything else. I didn't lie, though - I stated my impression. Whether my impression is correct or not, is a matter of opinion. The fact of the matter is that you fight, constantly, and that it causes a big problem here at Mudcat. Exactly what is it you want me to apologize for?

If you stop fighting, I will be satisfied. That's all I want from you, that you be the nice person that you are when people see you face-to-face.

-Joe Offer-



And as for Dianavan, "turning the other cheek" and religious values have nothing to do with anything in this matter. The issue is that fighting with trolls makes matters infinitely worse. Fighting with trolls doesn't work, no matter how valid the justification for fighting may be. Same goes for you, Carol and Ron, and for everybody else.

---

I hope I can get by without having to say anything else in this thread. The only point I have to make is that it's time to stop fighting with trolls, as we have requested so often before. I don't care if you call them trolls or bullies - just leave them alone.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST,Peanut Gallery Member #3
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 05:20 PM

Now just hang on a minute there Joe.. you don't honestly think that anything you might have to say will satisfy CarolC now do you..!

This thread really has way passed the point of the original issue and would be have been better off closed with your final say....but I was willing to bet that before I had even finished typing a reply that CarolC, yet again, would have a come back, and as usual, she confirmed that thought to be correct by posting yet another one of those mindless ramblings. This thread will reach a thousand posts no doubt because of them. Because she just don't know when to stop. No self control, no responsibilty..just ego.
This thread stopped being about Martin Gibson days ago. It's all about CarolC now. In fact it could be argued that it always has been.
Thanks Joe, for yet again, taking the time, to yet again explain, what appears to be an intelligent response to a very tired issue now. If I were you though I would save my energy for something important. Like walking your Dog if you have one.
There is NOTHING in this thread anymore except one woman's Ego trip and her need for attention. If anyone was ever like Martin Gibson's Twin here we have it!
As for being interesting and informative....this thread now ranks ZERO in that department and CarolC is rapidly losing the respect and credibility she may have thought she at some point had.

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST,Peanut Gallery Member #2
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 05:21 PM

So CarolC,

   Which are you, the troll or the bully? I don't think Joe owes you or anyone else on this thread an apology. Balk all you want. Oh, while I'm thinking of it, I wouldn't be surprised if your husband posted something for you if for no other reason than for you to shut your freaking yap. Good God woman.

PGM#2

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 05:24 PM

Nearly 9 years ago I joined Mudcat at Sorcha's introduction.
The first reactions I received were that of troll and spammer.

The best way to have one's history be unbelieved or to be accused of spam is to tell the complete and unvarnished truth or show people photographs of what you do. People used to say "don't feed it or it might follow you home".   So I followed mudcat from a distance and posted a couple times a month.

I felt that my predictions for war, bio war and econmomic disaster were certainly not the happiest topics to discuss but necessary.
Inflamatory topics are often mistaken for trollism. The issue of war played out exactly as I had explained as well as other insights made by more gifted writers here. Now only a tanking economy and bio catastrophe remain to occur.

But when inflamatory topics are combined with personal attacks, false accusations and hate rhetoric you have a real troll. MG was real in that respect. In absentia our runner ups now seem to be vieing for the honor of "top troll".

Who shall it be? Hammond, Little Hawk, robomatic etc. ?

don't feed it, it might follow you home.
(then you might have to sue to get rid of it)



PS
...............................................
1   the M Gibson pm to me is actual and verbatum.

2   The proposed lawsuit against MG had grounds to go forward but was never initiated.

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 05:25 PM

"would be have been better off closed with your final say...."

If I were Joe, I'd close this thread, and delete it...

Why leave this turd, floating in the punch-bowl?

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: heric
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 05:30 PM

That was a strange place to put a comma.

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 05:39 PM

Ya... it was eh.. I mighta been trying to be 'poetical' or something...

Oh well... worse things happen at sea...

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST,from the peanut gallery
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 05:43 PM

What I've noticed about CarolC is that if you start a thread with a premise she disagrees, particularly about the Middle East, She will call you a troll. If you post something she disagrees with, she will call you a troll. If you get into an argument with her, you are a stalker.

This was happening long before Martin Gibson showed up. The Mudcat archives are littered with people that CarolC wore down and left.

There were times I wondered if CarolC and Martin were the same schizo person. They really seemed to feed off of each other. I'm sure they weren't though. Now that Martin has up and left (goodbye, good riddance) CarolC has turned on Joe Offer.

Joe, you do a good job under very trying circumstances here. Nobody's perfect, but most of us appreciate all that you do.

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST,peanut gallery #4
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 05:53 PM

Look up almost any thread about the Middle East in the last 5 years. No matter what it starts out being about, it always ends up being about CarolC.

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 06:12 PM

I think you are still trying make me responsible for the behavior of others, Joe. And I don't accept that my behavior here is what is causing your headaches. It certanly isn't what caused the headache of yours known as "Martin Gibson". I ignored him for a very long time, but his bullying didn't stop. "Martin Gibson" stated many times that his entire reason for being here was to break the rules of the Mudcat. This he did quite successfully, without any help from me.

The reason ignoring trolls is the best way to deal with them is because ignoring them deprives them of any reinforcement of the behavior. Trolls are out to get an emotional response from their targets. If the target does not respond emotionally, the troll will lose interest (eventually).

But with bullies, the reinforcements are not the same as with trolls. In the case of "Martin Gibson", the reinforcement came from the behind-the-scenes subculture that he had created, in which he would get virtual "high-fives" for getting in a good one at someone else' expense. And bullies even get reinforcement from being ignored, because they take a non-response as a sign of their victory over the person they are bullying.

In my case, as long as I ignored "Martin's" abuse, it continued and even got worse. At first, I took him to be someone who needed to be "won over" (rather than as a troll), so I tried to respond with kindness to his abuse whenever possible. This didn't produce any results. After a while, I decided that he was a troll, and I didn't respond to his abuse. This didn't work because he was not a troll.

Eventually, after seeing the kinds of things he was saying to people like Art Theime, Wesley S, and Don Firth, I decided to try an experiment. I decided to stand up to him. The thing that tells me I was right about him being a bully and not a troll is that standing up to him did work. Once I started doing that, his attacks on me lessened and I was able to get him to leave me alone.

I agree that there are ways to stand up to a bully like that that are counterproductive. For instance, I think the many "Martin" bashing threads were counterproductive. I did not participate in those. I also think the threads that were for the purpose of trolling for "Martin" were counterproductve. I did not participate in those. And trolling for "Martin" within other kinds of threads was counterproductive. I did not do that. I only responded to his attacks on me (and a few times his attacks on others), and I did it in such a way as to take the fun out of what he was doing, rather than give him satisfaction. And it worked.

I will continue to try to avoid feeding trolls (as I have been doing). This is sometimes made difficult by the fact that it is not always easy to determine whether or not a person is trolling. Clinton, for instance, in this thread. Sometimes I test people a few times as a way of finding out if they are trolling. And if I find that they are, I ignore them (sometimes after saying one or two things that have the effect of neutralizing their attack). And after I do that, they leave me alone.

But telling me (or anyone else) that I must take whatever bullies dish out, even though what they are doing is against the policies of the Mudcat, and not doing anything yourself to enforce the rules against the bullies, is, to be frank, very unfair, and not workable. Whether or not I ever post another thing in the Mudcat, you will still have just as many headaches as you have had lately as long as this kind of double standard is being applied.

I also know that I have repeatedly asked you not to fight, and you have continued to do so.

You have not repeatedly asked me not to fight.

Exactly what is it you want me to apologize for?

I wanted you to apologise for mischaracterizing my behavior. I think you are still mischaracterizing my behavior, but I note that you have implied some kind of apology in there somewhere, and to the extent that you have done that, I accept it.


and CarolC is rapidly losing the respect and credibility she may have thought she at some point had.

This point is completely lost on me Peanut, because I never expected that I had any to begin with.

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 06:23 PM

I keep thinking I'll post my clear, coherent thoughts and resolve all this rancor and sooth everyone---and then I think, "yeah, Bill...sure...you've tried that before.", and I go lie down.

There is this phenomenon of verbally "painting one's self into a corner" until there's no way to back down and just **stop**.....

lordy, lordy..............

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 06:29 PM

I keep thinking I'll post my clear, coherent thoughts and resolve all this rancor and sooth everyone

That's ok, Bill. I did it for you. Have nice lie down.

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST,Fed-up Mudcatter
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 06:30 PM

Give it a rest, guys. This thread represents hundreds of hours of all of you arguing and tearing each other up. The golem is gone. Let the stink of his passing clear.

Carol, stop talking. NOW. Not one more word! You've become your own worst enemy.

Joe, stop talking. It doesn't make things any better.

All of you, go do something constructive for a while. Create something. Go talk to a friend. Sing a song, play an instrument. Do something nice for someone else.

Thank you.

---

I think you're right. I'm sorry I got suckered into this.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 06:42 PM

"Thanks Joe, for yet again, taking the time, to yet again explain, what appears to be an intelligent response to a very tired issue now. If I were you though I would save my energy for something important. Like walking your Dog if you have one.
There is NOTHING in this thread anymore except one woman's Ego trip and her need for attention. If anyone was ever like Martin Gibson's Twin here we have it!"


That's probably one of the most accurate things that I've seen posted about CarolC.

Joe, he's right. You have absolutely nothing to apologize for. We all know that you tried to treat everyone fairly. IN MY FOUR MONTHS OF POSTING HERE (for you CarolC) I've yet to see where there was a double standard applied.

CarolC reminds me of the little old lady that lives down the street. When she comes over, we all pretend to listen intently to whatever it is she decides to ramble on or piss and moan about that particular day. Then when she leaves, we all shake our head and say...poor, poor woman. Bless her heart.




Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 06:48 PM

Hubster, you are both a troll and a bully. So what you have said is no surprise to me.

GUEST, big letters, I would like to know who you are.

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 06:55 PM

FOR CRISSAKE, LET IT UP!!

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: jpk
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 07:11 PM

close this tread and let it rest;an if in som 1 wants to run to a paper hanger over nottin let um' just wastin good? money on no goodnic lawyer types    PLEASE LET IT DIE QUIETLY

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: jpk
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 07:14 PM

damn broke my word of honor to myself and posted here when i swore not to

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: gnu
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 07:14 PM

Hey Hub, you been here TWO months and you think I or anyone else gives one sweet fuck what you think? CC has more street cred around here than you will ever have. Little old lady?... too bad your little old lady didn't slap you when your manners or smarts weren't up to snuff. You might have turned out better.

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: gnu
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 07:18 PM

Yeah, that's right. I am not going to let this pass. Joe and CC are friends of mine. I'll defend both of them until they work this out... and, they will.

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: gnu
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 07:31 PM

May I be so bold as to recap the major points? No, well, I will anyway.

Should all of MG's derogatory posts be deleted? Yes. Why? So that it is clearly shown that this type of behaviour is not welcome at the Café.

Can all of MG's derogatory posts be deleted? No so easy. Why? Because it would take a month of Sundays.

Can some of MG's posts be deleted? Not so easy. Why? Because it would take a month of Sundays. If anyone has a solution as to which posts should be deleted, please post it... and, can you include the post in which he called me racist for no reason? And, what about the post where he...

Should Joe apologize for saying certain 'Cats "squealed like stuck pigs"? Yes. Why? Because. It's not nice.

Should a "certain" (NOT CC) 'Cat apologize to Joe for misquoting him? Yes. Why? Because. It's not nice. AND, IT IS LIBEL (don't get upset with me; misquotation does not compare with simile in a court of law).

You say it's not that simple? BULLSHIT. It IS that simple.

Now, I shall repair to repast and leave you kind folks to sort thins out.

gnight

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 08:00 PM

If one person can post so many times with sentiments that' the rules' say are not allowed, and all the clones are unable to keep up with it, then either the rules need changing or the poster needs banning.

Why have rules that are unenforcable?

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 08:02 PM

"Then when she leaves, we all shake our head and say...poor, poor woman."

Now if only Carol would leave so we could get about it...

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: number 6
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 08:05 PM

CarolC and Joe. Take some of the good advice that has been given and forget all of this. It's a shame to see 2 good peeple like you guys going at each other. It's not worth the battle,it has become meaningless, it's taken up valuable disk space, it's all history now and it's it's starting to get to others here. The good others such as gnu.

gnu, go and have a couple of alpines buddy. Cool off.

Man, I can't even crack any more jokes about this.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 09:51 PM

This thread is the most pathetic thing I have ever seen. I see nice folks that I have met, and sang with, acting like fools. I see the person who is supposed to be the "voice of sanity" acting foolish and looking foolish. Makes me very sad.

I would gladly take Martin back, as disgusting and vile as he was, if it meant the lot of you would quit acting like a bunch of childish morons.

I still love this place. But I am very sad at what you are turning it into.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST,Paranoid Android
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 09:56 PM

"And he lost the thread and his mind got cluttered
And his words just rolled off down the gutter".(Guy Clark)

Did Martin die and send his ghost to haunt this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 10:25 PM

Carol and I have had a few go-arounds. Joe and I have had a few go-arounds. Carol has at times torn a strip off my ass. So has Joe. I love both of them. There is nothing good or bad but that thinking makes it so--or whatever the guy said.

Folks, we gotta stop thinking about this stuff. People gotta make peace. Really.

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 11:14 PM

Joe--

In general I agree trolls should be ignored.   I have told several Guests that I don't shadow-box. And that was the end of that.

But...a Mudcat member is not a troll (to be sung to the tune of "A Secretary Is Not A Toy").

And needs different treatment.

"Gibson" should have been banned from Mudcat--early--for the reasons I cited yesterday.. Why should anybody who has done any of the 3, much less all 3, be allowed to ever say anything else on Mudcat--certainly as a member?

When somebody says--and proves over and over--that he has no intention of contributing, just sabotaging, there's no reason he should be free to post any message at all--banning is the only way.

This, as I said, would have eliminated completely the thorny "censorship" question.

The moderator has to take some responsibility for keeping MC a civilized place, which it mostly is. Banning is sometimes necessary. With "Gibson", censorship was needless agony for you.

Why are you so stubborn as to insist that we all just ignore "Gibson?" Didn't you read what I said--we have drop-in Guests all the time, who can, will, and in some cases like to, keep the pot boiling. "Gibson" would have always had a sparring partner-or 3. Didn't you realize that by allowing him free rein, you were discouraging the participation of both members and non-combative non-members?

Maybe if he were banned he would come back--but only to fade into the general miasma of anonymous Guests-- which are much easier to ignore.

He was the opposite of a Mudcat member. Read what he said to Don Firth, to various women, and his wish for the death of the child of a Mudcat member---what more did he have to say to be banned?

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 11:26 PM

Except that if they banned him, they'd have to ban others, and then they'd have to ban everybody... ANd Mudcat'd be a pretty happy, but really quiet place...

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST,Little Engine That Coulda But Didna
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 12:01 AM

Put it this way, if MG tuned in to this thread, would he be laughing his fool head off?

Methinks he answer to that is:
aye, verily!

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 02:39 AM

It remained important to rebuff Gobson, so that those he wrongly vilified might know that Gobson's behaviour was unacceptable.

I never saw a response to Gobson that fell outside the range (in my view) of permissible response.

Alleging that those attacking Gobson were antisemites or stalkers only tended to appear to support Gobson's own apparent view that any criticism (on whatever ground) of him or Israel or any Jew was antisemitism, and that Gobson was largely free from any effective control whereas those opposed to him were required to fight with thier hands tied behind their back.

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 04:27 AM

I've read a few times that MG should have been banned. Although Joe Offer has given no indication he can't and I'm aware that he can take actions such as temporarily blocking a user, I do wonder whether he has the authority to go as far as to "permanently" ban a user from the site or remove membership.

Sites work differently but I know at the Annexe and folkinfo where an admin can do anything the moderating controls allow, eg. permission is not needed to delete, one would not ban a member - although there may be consultation (in fact there almost certainly would be between all admins), ultimately that final decision would be Pip's alone (or mine alone when they were my sites). Personaly I would be surprised to learn the situation is particularly different here - I'd have guessed Max (who himself can not have been unaware of MG regradless of whether Joe reported the matter or not) would have to be involved in this particular action.

I could be completely wrong but I suspect some of Joe's tangle here stems from this.

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 05:21 AM

I was going to start another thread on the following but I think it would turn into a troll fest so I decided to keep all the (bad) eggs in one basket.:-)

I think some people are getting very confused here. No names no pack drill. I agree wholeheartedly with the people saying 'ignore them and they will go away'. I also agree wholeheartedly with the people saying fight them. How do I reconcile these too seemingly dissimilar points I hear you ask. Easy. In cyber space ignore them. In real life fight them. I know the difference between the two and I am not particulary bright, so surely anyone can differentiate. No? OK - Let me explain.

In cyber space you can never, ever, ever (to the power n) win or loose a fight. There are no winners or losers, only combatants. The only way to avoid the fight it is to stay out. In real life it is easy win or loose a fight. If a bully hits you and you cry he has won. If a bully tries to hit you and you break his nose you have won. Simple.

Perhaps it boils down to the question, do we believe the sticks and stones adage or the mighty pen one? Well, if in real life there is someone coming down the road with a stout cudgel in one direction and someone brandishing a Bic coming the other way I will take my chances with the pen. If, on the other hand, someone wants to cave my skull in by likening me to a piece of anatomy I think I would remain quite unscathed if I chose to ignore him;-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 07:03 AM

Ron, you sound like you're making excsuses as to why you did your part to keep the guy going. "He shouldn't have been allowed to continue to force me to post." "Somebody would have replied - it might as well have been me." It didn't work when we were kids, and it doesn't sound logical now. Blaming Max for "not making the bad man go away" is sort of amusing in that it's trying to blame Max for what everyone, including you, did or said in reaction.

When you and others tell him what he should have done, think up a plan in which that's possible and doesn't cause different and probably worse things. I have no doubt I could find my way around a ban. Of course, I'd be more difficult to recognize. If I had a magic button, I would have permanently banned Martin Gibson, but I also would have bounced a bunch of people for at least 48 hours and not let them back in without a cookie. Be glad we don't do that stuff, or at least I don't. Rules of engagement are for everybody, not just the catalyst.

Please - take responsibility for your own part. If you choose to get involved in a fight and start throwing your own punches, you shouldn't ask for a grown-up to break it up when you and 10 other people start getting verbally thrashed by a single 'bully'. As Joe mentioned, it's hard enough to deal with one miscreant and impossible to deal with 11, and as for deleting Martin's posts - there are just too many replies, many of which quote him.

Basically, if people want this sort of thing, it's going to happen again. It's going to happen again because there's a lot of support for trolls here and there's currently a HUGE amoung of hate just begging for a focus. It's only a matter of time before the next wave hits.

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST,Arnold Jackson
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 09:01 AM

there's currently a HUGE amoung of hate just begging for a focus. It's only a matter of time before the next wave hits.

Whatchoo talkin' 'bout Willis, I mean Jeri?

As this thread shows, the "next wave" was unleashed when the king troller left. The latent hatred within Mudcat was repressed when Martin was here. With no more Martin, Carol 'n' Jack 'n' Diana 'n' Ron, etc. began to show themselves for the mongers they are.

Sure Joe has made some mistakes, he's not God, not even the pope, but look at the hatred he's been up against, and I'm not talking about Martin.

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST,bobad
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 10:17 AM

Is there a psychologist in the house ?

Perhaps some group psychotherapy can get this issue resolved so that everyone can get on with their lives.

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 10:32 AM

I'm psychotic. Will that do? Or, maybe there's a psychic in the Café who could become a clone and preclude having to delete posts altogether.

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST,gnu
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 10:34 AM

Oops... for those of you who are not psychics, that was me at 10:32AM.

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST,CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 11:25 AM

This post is from me. I will verify it when I am able to get in through the front door.

In cyber space you can never, ever, ever (to the power n) win or loose a fight. There are no winners or losers, only combatants. The only way to avoid the fight it is to stay out. In real life it is easy win or loose a fight. If a bully hits you and you cry he has won. If a bully tries to hit you and you break his nose you have won. Simple.

The point is not winning or losing, Dave. On the internet, it's all about behavior. People can substantially effect and/or change the nature of a website by controling behavior. A troll seeks to effect behavior for a small reward... the sense of power he or she feels as a result of making someone respond emotionally.

With a bully, the issue is a much larger one. Especially a bully like "Martin Gibson". With "Martin", the reward was a much bigger one than with trolls. He got his reward from the feeling of power he got from subtantially changing the whole tone and nature of the Mudcat. Rather than allow the Mudcat to be what it is naturally, on its own, he stated many times his intention to make it over into something he wanted it to be. And he stated many times that he intended to be the driving force and major power figure within the Mudcat. Most of his behaviors supported those declarations.

The object is to find ways to reduce and/or eliminate the behavior. Egging "Martin" on increased his destructive behaviors. Trolling for "Martin" increased his behaviors. Acting hurt by what he said increased his behaviors.

The only thing that could decrease his destructive behaviors was to respond in ways that reduced his ability to feel powerful in the Mudcat. When I did that, it worked.

The reason it was important from my perspective to want his behavior reduced and/or eliminated is because there are times and situations when allowing a bully like "Martin" to abuse people has the potential to be just as devasataing to someone in their 3D life as if the bully hit them over the head with a tire iron. I saw such behavior from "Martin" on several occasions (toward other people, not myself), and that was what made me decide to stand up to him.

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 11:55 AM

Just looked in to say hello. Good to see you are all still happy.
Just a thought - why not go and listen to some music, have sex, grab a concert, walk in the park, drink in a bar, have sex, I said sex twice because its my favourite...

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST,615
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 11:57 AM

I've been a Mudcatter for a number of years. I'd like to think that I'm well thought of here. But I've recently taken on the name of 615 - last Wednesdays date - so that I can still talk issues in the BS section. If no one knows my gender - they can't make jokes about my genitalia. If they don't know if I have a family - then they can't say anything nasty about them - if they exist.

This is partially due to Martin. But it's also due to the fact that if another Martin comes along that I don't think anything will be done about it. So in the future I'll be "615". If someone has a problem with the ideas I express - that's fine. But I'm not giving anyone - trolls or moderators - the ammunition they need to abuse me.