BS: For Real. I quit

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST,from the peanut gallery
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 05:43 PM

What I've noticed about CarolC is that if you start a thread with a premise she disagrees, particularly about the Middle East, She will call you a troll. If you post something she disagrees with, she will call you a troll. If you get into an argument with her, you are a stalker.

This was happening long before Martin Gibson showed up. The Mudcat archives are littered with people that CarolC wore down and left.

There were times I wondered if CarolC and Martin were the same schizo person. They really seemed to feed off of each other. I'm sure they weren't though. Now that Martin has up and left (goodbye, good riddance) CarolC has turned on Joe Offer.

Joe, you do a good job under very trying circumstances here. Nobody's perfect, but most of us appreciate all that you do.

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 05:39 PM

Ya... it was eh.. I mighta been trying to be 'poetical' or something...

Oh well... worse things happen at sea...

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: heric
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 05:30 PM

That was a strange place to put a comma.

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 05:25 PM

"would be have been better off closed with your final say...."

If I were Joe, I'd close this thread, and delete it...

Why leave this turd, floating in the punch-bowl?

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 05:24 PM

Nearly 9 years ago I joined Mudcat at Sorcha's introduction.
The first reactions I received were that of troll and spammer.

The best way to have one's history be unbelieved or to be accused of spam is to tell the complete and unvarnished truth or show people photographs of what you do. People used to say "don't feed it or it might follow you home".   So I followed mudcat from a distance and posted a couple times a month.

I felt that my predictions for war, bio war and econmomic disaster were certainly not the happiest topics to discuss but necessary.
Inflamatory topics are often mistaken for trollism. The issue of war played out exactly as I had explained as well as other insights made by more gifted writers here. Now only a tanking economy and bio catastrophe remain to occur.

But when inflamatory topics are combined with personal attacks, false accusations and hate rhetoric you have a real troll. MG was real in that respect. In absentia our runner ups now seem to be vieing for the honor of "top troll".

Who shall it be? Hammond, Little Hawk, robomatic etc. ?

don't feed it, it might follow you home.
(then you might have to sue to get rid of it)



PS
...............................................
1   the M Gibson pm to me is actual and verbatum.

2   The proposed lawsuit against MG had grounds to go forward but was never initiated.

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST,Peanut Gallery Member #2
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 05:21 PM

So CarolC,

   Which are you, the troll or the bully? I don't think Joe owes you or anyone else on this thread an apology. Balk all you want. Oh, while I'm thinking of it, I wouldn't be surprised if your husband posted something for you if for no other reason than for you to shut your freaking yap. Good God woman.

PGM#2

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST,Peanut Gallery Member #3
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 05:20 PM

Now just hang on a minute there Joe.. you don't honestly think that anything you might have to say will satisfy CarolC now do you..!

This thread really has way passed the point of the original issue and would be have been better off closed with your final say....but I was willing to bet that before I had even finished typing a reply that CarolC, yet again, would have a come back, and as usual, she confirmed that thought to be correct by posting yet another one of those mindless ramblings. This thread will reach a thousand posts no doubt because of them. Because she just don't know when to stop. No self control, no responsibilty..just ego.
This thread stopped being about Martin Gibson days ago. It's all about CarolC now. In fact it could be argued that it always has been.
Thanks Joe, for yet again, taking the time, to yet again explain, what appears to be an intelligent response to a very tired issue now. If I were you though I would save my energy for something important. Like walking your Dog if you have one.
There is NOTHING in this thread anymore except one woman's Ego trip and her need for attention. If anyone was ever like Martin Gibson's Twin here we have it!
As for being interesting and informative....this thread now ranks ZERO in that department and CarolC is rapidly losing the respect and credibility she may have thought she at some point had.

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 05:14 PM

OK, Carol. The only things I know about you are that you are a very nice person to be with and deal with in person. I also know that time and time again, you are right in the middle of the nastiest fights that take place here at Mudcat, and that causes a big problem. I don't know why you seem to be driven to do that, because it is not at all like you are in person. You do seem to make a lot of noise when things don't go your way - whether that's "squealing like a stuck pig" is a matter of opinion, I guess.

I also know that I have repeatedly asked you not to fight, and you have continued to do so.

That's all I know, and all I have to say. I'm sorry that I said anything else. I didn't lie, though - I stated my impression. Whether my impression is correct or not, is a matter of opinion. The fact of the matter is that you fight, constantly, and that it causes a big problem here at Mudcat. Exactly what is it you want me to apologize for?

If you stop fighting, I will be satisfied. That's all I want from you, that you be the nice person that you are when people see you face-to-face.

-Joe Offer-



And as for Dianavan, "turning the other cheek" and religious values have nothing to do with anything in this matter. The issue is that fighting with trolls makes matters infinitely worse. Fighting with trolls doesn't work, no matter how valid the justification for fighting may be. Same goes for you, Carol and Ron, and for everybody else.

---

I hope I can get by without having to say anything else in this thread. The only point I have to make is that it's time to stop fighting with trolls, as we have requested so often before. I don't care if you call them trolls or bullies - just leave them alone.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: number 6
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 05:06 PM

1,000 !!!!

I'm laying early claim to that post now.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 04:52 PM

Sorry, first "amen" is for joe...
This "amen" is for Carol......Ake

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 04:52 PM

" treat me like a human being"

Act like one, if you want to be treated like one...

Joe... just type the letters... I - m - s - o - r - r - y...

You don't even have to mean it in the least...

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 04:47 PM

amen!!

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 04:41 PM

Nice way to avoid personal responsibility, Joe.

My problem with you here in this thread is that you have consistantly refused to treat me like a human being. You have made me responsible for the behavior of a lot of other people, whose behavior I have no control over (the term for that is "scapegoating", by the way). You have lied about and slandered me in numerous posts in this thread. You have even accused me of nefariously manipulating my husband to do my evil bidding for me. I wouldn't care about it if you were a troll. But you are supposedly not a troll. You are supposedly a person who has authority here in the Mudcat. And you were also once my friend. And for those reasons, the way you treat me has importance.

If you tell people that I have done something (like squealing like a stuck pig and complaining about you), because of your position of authority, many of them will believe you, whether it's true or not. The fact that you are not willing to apologise for the way you have behaved shows me that you are not a friend, and that you don't consider me even worthy of being treated like a person.

So that is what, in my opinion, makes you a very poor example as a person of authority in this forum. Effective people acknowlege their mistakes and they correct them. You have not done so. You do not appear to be willing to do so.

One more thing... there is a very big difference between a troll and a bully, and there is also a very big difference in the way these two kinds of behaviors need to be handled. Until you learn the difference between these two things, people like "Martin Gibson" will continue to make your job here much more difficult than it needs to be.

Subject: Leave the Trolls Alone!!!!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 04:12 PM

You know, you can twist this thing however you want. You can accuse me of lying, if that's your preference - although my ex-wife says I'm compulsively honest and that's what gets me into a lot of trouble. You can argue that some people who attacked Martin did not squeal when he counterattacked. You can argue all sorts of things.

I stepped into this thread to attempt to correct some misconceptions, and I got attacked from all sides. In the process, I may have said some things incorrectly, but what what I said was my perception of the truth. I'm sorry if I said something that was not completely true, but I certainly did not intend to lie to or about anybody. That's not my style.

But that's not the point.

The point is that a long list of people fought repeatedly with Martin Gibson, despite my repeated requests that they leave him alone so that I could deal with him.

Ron Davies gave you a pretty comprehensive list of the combatants, and he gave you a pretty comprehensive list of the reasons why Martin Gibson was a problem here at Mudcat. Most of the combatants have spoken out in this thread and given their reasons for fighting with Martin. I will say emphatically that their reasons are valid - there is no justification whatsoever for what Martin Gibson has done at Mudcat over the last several months. His conduct has been deplorable. He should never have posted a single message at Mudcat. If I could make him disappear and never come back, I would do it in an instant - but it isn't that easy, and it means giving up a lot of the freedoms we like to have here.

George W. Bush gave a long list of reasons why Saddam Hussein was deplorable. Some of the items on Bush's list were questionable, but most are considered true by almost everyone. Saddam Hussein was indeed deplorable, and many Americans had the impression we could conquer Iraq in two weeks without killing or being killed, and all the liberated Iraqi citizens would live happily ever after as grateful allies of the United States. George Bush and many other Americans also believed that anybody who opposed attacking Iraq was just as deplorable as Saddam himself.

But back to Martin Gibson, who was deplorable in different ways. Our Mudcat combatants are certainly right in condemning Martin Gibson. In an interesting parallel with Mr. Bush, these combatants and many other Mudcatters also believe that anybody who opposed attacking Martin Gibson was just as deplorable as Martin himself. However, they are wrong in thinking that they can defeat any troll, including Martin Gibson, by taking the troll's bait and fighting back. They are also wrong if they think that Mudcat or Joe Offer supported or tolerated Martin Gibson in any way. Martin Gibson started out as a troll, but the continuous counterattacks by self-righteous Mudcatters turned him into a monster. No matter how valid the reasons Mudcatters had for their counterattacks, the fact of the matter is that trolls like Martin thrive on being attacked. They hope to be banned and censored by Websites, so they can find ways around the banning and censorship and prove how clever they are.

As I've said so many times before, the only way we can control people like Martin Gibson is with silence. If Martin comes back, leave him alone. I know there are many good reasons to do battle with Martin, but battling Martin will only make him more of a problem.

Leave the Trolls Alone

And the reason for leaving trolls alone is that attacking them only makes them sronger and more persistent. Attacking trolls is exactly what they want you to do - it's exactly what they crave. All sorts of people have suggested all sorts of things Mudcat should have done to control Martin Gibson - we've tried most of these tactics at one time or another, and found they didn't work. We HAVE found that we desperately need the cooperation of Mudcatters, that we need them to help us by leaving the trolls alone.
THAT is the point.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 04:00 PM

Thank goodness for that.

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 03:59 PM

Yer not worth me doing better....

Yaaaawn

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 03:47 PM

Is that the best you can do, Clinton? Lepus Rex is right about you. You're just not cut out for this level of trolling. Your main man is gone, and you don't seem to be able to stop crying about it. Don't worry, the pain will ease eventually.

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 03:41 PM

Now there's the pot calling the kettle...

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 03:38 PM

LOL, and you're not, Clinton? Time for a reality check for you, buddy.

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Janie
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 03:35 PM

Ugh!!!!!!!!!!!!! to this whole thread.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 03:32 PM

Oh how times change eh.... Or to quote the movie, 'That was then, this is now... '

Cause right now, you're coming off like a total wanker...

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 03:26 PM

LOL. Here's what you posted about it here in the Mudcat. How about reposting those pictures. I'd like to steal them for my collection...

Subject: RE: JtS &CarolC: Michigan, Chicago, Ontario
From: ClintonHammond - PM
Date: 23 Aug 03 - 11:03 PM

Well guys, THAT was a bucket and a half of fun! Only my 2nd ever cyber-to-meat-space incursion...

I told ya I'd post a URL to Len Wallaces site and here it is...

http://worldaccordion.tripod.com/index.html

I'll get those pics off the camera and uploaded likley sometime tomorrow!

Well met you 2!

:-)

Oh ya... I forgot... Devilmaster wanted me to send along a "It was very good to meet ya's!"

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 03:16 PM

You have been in the same room with me, Clinton, at your favorite pub there in Windsor. We had a very nice time, too... after JtS and I watched your stunning performance at the pub where you had your gig. Maybe that's where you caught your raging case of "Idiot Whiner".

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 03:02 PM

"nicely proportioned woman."
Nice euphimisim...

" "Martin Gibson":
1) wished a Mudcatter's child dead
2) mocked handicapped Mudcatters--more than once
3) regularly called women "c--ts" and "encouraged the violent pack rape of women"--(Freda 11 June 7:37 PM)"

So f-n what? It's not like it's real, or important...

"someone who has stalked me"
Who the f--k'd stalk YOU?? I can't imagine wanting to be in the same ROOM as you... I might catch Idiot Whiner from you...

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 02:47 PM

Don Firth's post was a good one. And he is one of the folks I was speaking of in my other contribution to this thread. Here (if the numbers stay put). I found Martin Gibson's posts much harder to ignore when he insulted friends of mine, when I knew his characterizations were pure assasination, based upon no understanding of these individuals, but instead, intended to harm, only to attract (negative) attention to himself. Don, in particular, is one of the smartest, sweetest, most generous of men, a hero in my childhood and continues to be one today. Don held his own with MG, but I hated to see him have to do it. I'd much rather Don be freed up to tell his great stories (are you ever going to publish that book on the Seattle folk scene?) than be distracted by a calculating sociopath. And Martin Gibson, in addition to sullying the names of two perfectly good guitar manufacturers, was/is a sociopath.

I ignored a fair amount of his abused hurled at me, but mostly just stopped participating in any thread on which he established a beachhead. Deckman lobbied hard for people to ignore him, but it IS hard to set an example when it means you're NOT participating--most others who were slugging it out never even noticed.

This thread has gone way astray from the "goodbye" that MG offered at the beginning. I don't plan to waste much more time with it--the bickering and hammering at points best dropped isn't my idea of a good thread.

Thought for the day: on an NPR program this week (in the Dallas area) a writer being interviewed said that email and posts like these are in many ways an ineffective way to communicate. Given the effectiveness of a phone conversation or an in-person conversation, we get only 7% of the intended nuanced information from the written word alone. Expressions, even the micro-variety, transmit so much more to do with intention. Pauses, vocal tones, are the same. Many of my matter-of-fact, no-frills messages here at Mudcat have been misread and responded to angrily by people who brought their own interpretations to what micro-messages I *might* have intended, were I only there to transmit them. They were wrong. One gets tired of continually typing in emoticons to soothe wounded egos or ruffled feathers. It's time for some of you to stop slugging it out and revisiting the same old stuff. Call each other on the phone. Discuss it in a way where you get a more complete message.

I'm glad he's gone, and if he's really gone, he won't be missed. I don't think Little Hawk is MG.

That's my two-cents worth.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: podman
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 02:21 PM

the existence of this thread is an honorific to the one we knew as Martin Gibson. 'His' existence, 'his' postings, and his ability to elicit responses from those who either should have or did know better exposed characteristics of those posters that they deny. But in short, MG strove to bring out the 'MG-ness' in the rest of us, and to a great degree, MG succeeded.

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 12:55 PM

Wolfgang (was) too ready to defend Gobson when Gobson got some flak back (Richard Bridge)

Nonsense, Richard. I know which thread you mean but you have completely misunderstood my motivation for my reaction then. I did not care about MG I did care about the other poster (in another case as well). The MG person after some initial time was just below the level that elicits interest or care in me. He could have posted what he wanted (abuse and all that) about me or others without getting any reaction from me. He has shown often enough that he was not approachable in any menaingful sense. If he posted an interesting link I may have debated the content of the link.

But there are a lot of other posters (actually most of them) I take serious and even care for. And if I see one of these posters going below the level of discussion I prefer (for instance by making a general anti-semitic remark in the context of MG) then I react for I think (until I learn otherwise) that this poster can still be approached by arguments.

So when MG posts 'cunts' a thousand times I do not deem that worth of any reaction. But if you for instance would post it only once I would react.

I did not defend MG I did criticise others for attacks I considered much below their level.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 12:51 PM

 "And in the end the love you take is equal to the love you make." 

Lennon/McCartney

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 12:41 PM

LOL, Peanut Gallery. If being nice to others was legitimate currency here in the Mudcat, there would never have been a "Martin Gibson" in the first place, and you would never have seen me need to defend myself.

As for your charge that I make attacks on others, if I have ever attacked you, why don't you tell me who you are, and if I was wrong in my treatment of you, I'll apologise. But if you are someone who has stalked me and made gratuitous attacks on me and I responded in self-defence, then too bad.

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST,Peanut Gallery Member #2
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 12:40 PM

I have not defended anyone here. I simply think that these two women, especailly these two, have done more to keep this thread up and running. Their whining and carrying on only proves Joe's point.

I don't think this is a case of boys will be boys at all. I am a firm believer, however, of what goes around comes around. I have no desire to get into a who is right and who is wrong banter with you or anyone else.

I have bantered with Martin and you won't see me whining about it ad nauseum. I got what I gave. So did they.

I have a life to live. Carry on if you must.

PGM#2

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST,615
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 12:27 PM

Also - I'll assume that you will admit that Martin was "less than nice" to a lot of people around here. Am I correct? Or is it only the women that stick up for themselves a problem ?

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST,615
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 12:18 PM

No - but the two of you think alike. And you defend him.

If you don't like what she has to say ignore her. That's what we were supposed to do to Martin Gibson - right ? If it was good enough for him - then why not for CarolC and Dianavan ? Or are we still trying to keep the women "in their place". "Don't rock the boat girls" "Boys will be boys" ??

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST,Peanut Gallery Member #2
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 12:08 PM

Guest 615,

   I am not Martin. I am, however, someone who has seen CarolC and dianavan be less than nice to many people. It's nice to see someone call it as it really is. It gets even better because they go on to carry on and on and ON proving the point.

   No, I am not Martin. Not everyone who disagrees with CarolC or dianavan (or others) is Martin Gibson.

PGM#2

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST,615
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 12:03 PM

And who said that Martin wouldn't be back ?

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST,Peanut Gallery Member #2
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 09:25 AM

Dianavan,   
    It seems someone made a fitting observation of you: "self-righteous know-it-all whining hypocrite"

CarolC,
    From looking at how many posts you have made on this thread alone, I'd say you qualify for this job: "now if someone with a lot of time on their hands could find it and troll the trolls."

Both of you people have been nasty to many, MANY people. This thread does a good job of showing what kind of person you are.

And Joe, at least I think it was Joe, excellent choice on the squealing pig comment! I can't think of anything more appropriate.

Squeal away, Dianavan and CarolC.

PGM#2

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 01:09 AM

I promise not to post to this thread again if Joe will just listen to reason :>)

Joe said, "Still, Diana, it didn't help that you provoked Martin by attacking his family."

Now Joe, I know that you can't possibly read every post but do you know how long I endured Martin's unprovoked attacks? These attacks from Martin were constant and in response to any comment I ever made on any topic and were highly personal. I didn't have to address him personally, he stalked me and I even had to ask you if it was possible to block PM's from the guy. You didn't respond to that very pointed question. Instead you told me not to respond. How many times do I have to be hit before I fight back?

Well Joe, I confess, I fought back. I fought back by hitting him where it hurts. I did what my daddy told me to do. Daddy said, "Don't go pickin' fights but if someone starts a fight with you, you finish it. And remember there aint no rules."

So what if I said I didn't blame his wife for leaving him. That pales in comparison to what he said to me and about me. For this "sin" you, Joe, have labelled me a self-righteous know-it-all whining hypocrite and claim that I squealed like a stuck pig.

Have you ever said you were sorry for anything in your life or are you too proud to admit that maybe you made a mistake by calling me names? If you are, you are no better than the Martin Gibsons of the world.

I have a few names in mind for you, Joe, but I will refrain because you're the boss but don't ever tell me to turn the other cheek because I'm not a Christian and I don't think thats how to deal with a bully.

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 12:13 AM

With the recent crisis---- (thank you, Max, for being able to resurrect the Cat so soon---I had thought the "Martin Gibson", episode was dead and buried. But it appears that the thread is definitely still here.

Joe has invited comment.   And he has, to my mind, repsonded intemperately to (admittedly partly quite intemperate) criticism on the "Gibson" affair.

Joe--

If you had left your comments at what you said in your 11 June 8:57 and 9:44 posts, fine. But you didn't.

Sorry, you dropped the ball on this one big-time.

"Martin Gibson":

1) wished a Mudcatter's child dead
2) mocked handicapped Mudcatters--more than once
3) regularly called women "c--ts" and "encouraged the violent pack rape of women"--(Freda 11 June 7:37 PM)

For any one of these, he should have been immediately flushed down the toilet back to his home. He should have been tossed off Mudcat immediately and permanently for any one of these, much less all 3.

Tossed off a long time ago.

Not "censored". Banned. Permanently. Immediately. End of his little game. Problem solved.

You made a colossal misjudgment here. I'm disappointed you don't seem to be a big enough man to admit it.

It's your sandbox--you can do what you like--but the Catbox would have been a lot easier to keep clean without "Gibson"'s constant polluting of it.

The crowning irony is that , had you excised this boil from the Mudcat body politic, you would have saved yourself countless headaches and wasted hours. All you had to do was ban him---early.

"The worst thing about trolls is that their 'targets' are most often self-righteous know-it-all whining hypocrites". Well, that's quite a mouthful.

Let me take a wild guess and say that I think you are including me in this rather unsavory crew.

Please specify exactly when I have whined about anything.   I have never been anonymous--in fact the opposite. I have attacked "Gibson" every time he attacked me--(and sometimes when he attacked others)--and never once complained to you about him. I was at all times prepared to continue attacking him--through sarcasm. I can handle my own defense, thank you. Also, proof please, on the hypocrisy charge.

You did not ban him--the easy as well as the best way to deal with him--so he was virtually allowed to run wild. This alienated lots of people--not just me. Some of the best Mudcatters were affected. As I pointed out, Jerry left--I would guess that this might have played a role. Who knows what other possible contributors were repulsed by "Gibson"?

You say it's simple--just don't respond. It's not simple.

People from all over the world post on Mudcat. He attacked people from all over the world. It should have been obvious to you that there is no way you can convince everybody who posts to Mudcat--including various and sundry Guests, over whom nobody has any control--to stop responding. Some of the Guests may have enjoyed the show--"Pass the popcorn" etc, --and would be only too willing to keep it going. Exactly how were you going to prevent Guests from doing just that?

Sorry, you were dead wrong on this issue--and even that would be fine except that you have now attacked those of us who stood up to "Gibson". Nobody expects you to be St. Joe"--but if you attack us who stood up to "Gibson", don't expect meek submission.

You may think there is good in every human. As I recall, you complimented "Gibson" from time to time.

Sorry-- the person behind "Gibson" is a very sick puppy--or close to pure evil--the closest thing to Julius Streicher (remember him?) or possibly even a would-be Hitler. The most charitable interpretation is that he is a despicable game-player.

He needed to be squelched early. Had you done it, you would have saved yourself a lot of grief.

You didn't do it.

By the way, how many times did I ask you to delete remarks about my "lace panties" or any other of his colorful suggestions?

Precisely zero.

Therefore I am also disappointed in you that, without any evidence whatsoever, you assumed that I was so fragile that you had to do this. I am virtually certain I saw everything he said about me-- as I said several times, his attacks reflected on nobody but himself. He was just destroying his own credibility even more. It was pathetic. Fine with me.

You never PM'ed me to even ask if I was bothered by anything aimed at me. I would have immediately answered: No.

Also, nothing he said would begin to approach the 3 items I cited earlier.

You did, however, PM me to ask me to stop responding to him. I complied, several times. Made no difference, for the reasons I've noted. So I came back. You didn't like that. Spare me your "truth, justice and the American way".

Joe, you just fumbled the ball on "Gibson", and, rather than admit it, you attack those of us who were determined not to be cowed by that pathetic excuse for a human. Nobody who defended him- or herself against "Gibson"---which includes such Mudcatters as Big Mick, Jack, Carol, Richard Bridge, Foolestroupe, Don Firth, Dianavan, Ebbie---and the list goes on-------------should be tarred with the brush of "self-righteous know-it-all whining hypocrites". (How subtle)

"Martin" needed to be removed from MC--early--for any of the 3 reasons I cited. If you needed justification from Mudcat policy, how about: "We will not allow Mudcat to be used
as a vehicle for hate infomation and we will delete all racist information as soon as it comes to our attention"?

This could fit both "Gibson"s reaction to honoring Pete Seeger and his remarks on Kwanzaa. (Obviously, it depends on whether you want to be a"strict constructionist" or a liberal interpreter, as in the current struggle over the US judiciary.)

Joe, I'm sorry if you're tired, irritated, and feeling unappreciated. Believe it or not, we all do appreciate all the work you do, and we hope you continue as moderator.

But on this one, you were wrong, pure and simple. It's not the end of the world, though I hope it's the end, or close to it, of this sordid episode.

But you have invited comment. That's mine.

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: number 6
Date: 15 Jun 05 - 10:59 PM

Jeeezuz, Jayzuz or whatever .... This thread is still alive and hot as ever !!!

I know I declared I wasn't going to post again to this thread .. but it ringed a ding and struck my amazement ... I just had to !!   

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jun 05 - 10:56 PM

A few observations from a relative newcomer to this site regarding the "Martin Gibson" affair.

If the PM to Donuel from MG is legitimate I think some inferences can be made from it.
    * the MG persona was totally fictional except for being Jewish   
       and knowledgable about music.
    * his sole purpose at this site (other than some serious
       contributions to the music threads) was to engage posters with   
       socio-political views opposite to those of his created persona.
    * he did this by getting them to respond to his increasingly
       outrageous statements and personal attacks.
    * responding to him served no purpose at all since he didn't hold
       to the beliefs he was championing - if the posters had held
       right wing views he would have assumed a leftist persona.

I believe that this vindicates Joe in his assertion that the ONLY way to combat these trolls is by not responding to them.

There must be some weird subculture of trolls out there in cyberland who get together to boast of their trolling exploits - now if someone with a lot of time on their hands could find it and troll the trolls.

The next time a suspected troll shows up at Mudcat suspicious posters should raise the alarm so that we can at least all be on our guard - forewarned is forearmed.

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 05 - 10:54 PM

...anyway, I was already fucked before I ever said a word because of what Joe said about me, so I really didn't have anything to lose.

And all I want from Joe is an apology.

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 05 - 10:48 PM

NIce try, Peanut Gallery. No cigar. Go troll someone else.

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST,from the peanut gallery
Date: 15 Jun 05 - 10:34 PM

One of the few exceptions to that is my argument with Joe on this thread, which is none of your business.

CarolC,

By conducting your argument in public, in front of all of us, YOU have made it everybody's business.

Now that Martin is gone, it's eveident that you needed somebody else to get nasty with and Joe's your victim.

The thing is, though, when you were fighting Martin you had a lot of people on your side because of Martin's behaviour. Joe Offer, though, has more friends at Mudcat than you; among the members and even among us guests.

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Jun 05 - 09:25 PM

I used to play softball in Ottawa South, one of the opposing teams called themselves The Nads. Can you guess what their cheer was?

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST,615
Date: 15 Jun 05 - 08:59 PM

Has anyone noticed that now Jenny O has the very first post on this thread even before MG's ? Ain't technology grand ??

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Jun 05 - 08:35 PM

Jeez who the heck said that her husband had her ovaries in a garlic press... and what does it matter?

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jun 05 - 08:25 PM

Climate's what ya expect; weather's what ya get.

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: jacqui.c
Date: 15 Jun 05 - 08:16 PM

What happened the the weather then?

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jun 05 - 08:13 PM

A TORONTO FAN? YEAH.

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Jun 05 - 08:12 PM

'Ow 'bout dem Blue Jays?

Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 05 - 08:09 PM

if it's no one else's bizness, why are you conducting this argument on a public forum rather than private email?

Because I don't trust Joe Offer to not discuss the contents of PMs and private e-mails in the open forum, and to not lie about it. So the only way to protect myself from more slanderous accusations is to conduct my argument in the open where everyone can see it.