buying a new pa system

Subject: buying a new pa system (UK)
From: GUEST,rhyzla
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 10:02 AM

I'm looking for some experienced opinions on buying a new pa system.

We are an acoustic roots trio (in the UK)using mainly acoustic guitars with keyboard and 3 vocals, and we will use the pa in rooms holding up to 200 audience.

We wish the system to be as portable as possible, with weight also being an issue, and I imagine needing in the region of 600 -1000 watts (especially if we use a sub!). We will need 12 channels.

I have so far considered systems by JBL, Lucas, Mackie, Bose etc and would be very interested in opinions on the quality, cost, durability of this gear.

Would also be interested in other types of gear - our budget is not unlimited, but we are willing to pay the price for a good system.

Much appreciate your help!!!

Subject: RE: buying a new pa system
From: GUEST,Leadfingers
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 10:20 AM

Rhyzla - You say 'mainly acoustic guitars' - How are you feeding the instruments into the system ? And have you looked at Microvox as a way of inputting acoustic instruments into a mixer ?

Subject: RE: buying a new pa system
From: GUEST,rhyzla - up the back tube!
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 10:23 AM

We will put instruments into mixer using preamps and DI boxes.

I believe our accordion player uses a microvox with mixed success!

Thanks

Subject: RE: buying a new pa system
From: GUEST,mooman
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 12:32 PM

I believe Yamaha have one or two systems also within those specifications that might be worth looking at.

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: buying a new pa system
From: dwditty
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 04:37 PM

I use the Bose Personal Amplification System (the Stick)....and I have achived live sound reproduction nirvana! You would need 3 of them. I would be happy to go into more detail in PM if you are interested.

dw

Subject: RE: buying a new pa system
From: GUEST,rhyzla
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 03:46 AM

refresh??

Subject: RE: buying a new pa system
From: mandotim
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 05:29 AM

We use a HK Audio LUCAS system with either one or two Behringer mixers. The LUCAS system comes in several sizes, from 350 watts to 2000 watts. Ours is a 600 watt rig, and is plenty powerful enough for our acoustic duo in noisy pubs and the like. The reproduction of vocals and acoustic instruments is outstanding, although these are not as good as a conventional system for bass-heavy rock bands. The system is very portable and quick to set up. These systems come up regularly on that well-known auction site, so no need to pay the high price for a new one. The systems are German-made, and are absolutely bomb proof. Strongly recommended for your type of music (yes, I have heard you play!). Use whatever mixer you like; connections are via two XLR leads into the sub box, which also contains the three separate amplifiers. Crossover is built in as well, and there is full overload protection. You can also link more than one of these systems together if you need extra power for a big gig or outdoor event. PM me if you want to know more.
Tim from Bit on the Side

Subject: RE: buying a new pa system
From: GUEST,rhyzla
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 07:03 AM

Hello Tim,

Thanks for that, this is the advice I've been seeking, and from someone so local too.

Where did you see us play?

Cheers Barry!

Subject: RE: buying a new pa system
From: CharleyR
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 08:19 AM

I'll second the recommendation for HK Audio Lucas systems - I recently bought a Lucas 1000 which I use with my ceilidh band and I'm really pleased with it, it gives a very clear sound and fills a lot larger space than you'd imagine for something so compact. I've used it with vocals too, the first time was with an unaccompanied singing trio and from the back of the room it was totally audible but quality-wise sounded as if they weren't even going through a PA. The 1000 has the same size top speakers as the 600 (150W each) but a larger bass speaker (600W and capable of making a lot of noise).

Charley

Subject: RE: buying a new pa system
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 09:21 AM

North West Kent College's very respected performing arts course used to use H+K 15 inch drivers in H+K flying enclosures in their Miskin Theatre. There was always a pile of blown ones lying around.

Then they went Mackie - but the mackie powered sub sounds like bose to me - all ports and resonance and no real thud, but that may not matter too much if you are mainly acoustic: however I hate the mackie powered tops too - very harsh gravelly and scratchy (to my ear).

The real answer is to listen to the systems before you buy (if that can be arranged)

Subject: RE: buying a new pa system
From: rhyzla
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 09:39 AM

Thanks all for your comments. really appreciate it!

Keep 'em comin'!

Subject: RE: buying a new pa system
From: JedMarum
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 11:04 AM

JBL - makes great stuff. They're top of the line products really are worth the premium you pay in price. Their mid range gear is very good too and price competitive - and the midrange gear is at least on par to the products with which they compete; Mackie, etc.

JBL's EON series cabs are easily portable - but the higher level products are just so much better for full range reproduction and dispersion.

12 channels is lot for a trio. It will cost you, because it bumps you up from the standard 8 channel mixer - BUT you need what you need.

Mackie makes good gear. Spirit Folio make very fine electronics - for mixers, and they're designed and manufactured in the UK. I would look very carefully at them - especially with your 12 channel needs. Buying a 12 channel, mixer/power amp unit will cost you a lot more then buying a stand alone 12 channel mix console - and a power amp from Crown or one of the others.

I am convinced that Crown make the best power amps. Their CE series is their mid-priced product - and it's high quality, last forever stuff. Their high end products are even better.

You probably need good speaker cabs, with one 15" (woofer) and an 1 1/2" compression horn. This is pretty standard design, and a few companies have good product offerings like this. I like the JBLs - but Mackie, Yamaha and several others make good designs too. There are some poor quality look alikes, so choose wisely.

Think about monitors too. With that many channels to mix, you may have difficulty hearing well, without monitor/s.

JBL's very good mid-priced gear is called the M-Pro series. If you're looking at used gear (and that would probably be good, if you can find some), the equivalent is the MR series. Their SR and SRX series are top of the line. Damned expensive - but damned good.

Anyway - best of luck. Shopping for gear can be fun, especially if have a budget to work with!

Subject: RE: buying a new pa system
From: GUEST,John from Tarneybackle
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 03:51 PM

We use a Mackie desk and two Mackie active 450 watt speakers.

This gear gives us great sound and we've never had any problems with it.

Speakers are only 12 inches, but you would not know it to hear them.


Cheers



John

Subject: RE: buying a new pa system
From: treewind
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 04:20 PM

12" are fine and likely to give you a cleaner sound on vocals and guitars where mid-range is all important. 15" comes into its own for more bass-heavy music than the band described in the original question.

I've used EV SX300s in a ceilidh band. If I was buying now I'd get another pair of those. They've had a lot of good press on the web too.

Anahata

Subject: RE: buying a new pa system
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 05:03 PM

If you are acoustic, stay acoustic. We do, and are MUCH happier. Audiences are up close and friendly.

Subject: RE: buying a new pa system
From: rhyzla
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 04:15 AM

Nice thought Sorcha, and it's fine for audiences up close, but what about the one's that aren't - how do they hear?

Subject: RE: buying a new pa system
From: webfolk
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 04:46 PM

when it comes to speakers, as other things, size is not important, it's how you use them.
geoff - bit on the side

Subject: RE: buying a new pa system
From: Sorcha
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 04:52 PM

We don't take those gigs, or if we do, the venue provides the sound. Most have one.

Subject: RE: buying a new pa system
From: John Robinson (aka Cittern)
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 04:54 PM

I've been really pleased with our Yamaha powered mixer. Mackie stuff looks good, and personally I'd avoid Behringer unless cost is a significant concern.

I'd love Bose speakers but we can't afford them (yet - he says with hope!).

Subject: RE: buying a new pa system
From: GUEST,CN
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 05:10 PM

Don't listen to the acoustic fundamentalists!

Take a good look at the Soundcraft powered mixers. We have an 8-channel model, but they also make 12 and 16 channel versions. Decent quality, phantom, good mic preamps and OK eq, and utterly reliable. They include a basic Lexicon reverb and are not expensive either. Speakers...we used Bose for a long time until I heard the EV SX series. In conjunction with the SB bass subs they sound really impressive. Loads are available second hand too.

Just my 2p!

Subject: RE: buying a new pa system
From: early
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 05:22 PM

you could also look at the lem powered speakers and mixers good sound similar to spirit and mackie made by general music italy and as good as mackie but with lower price tag i use this set up for most of my gigs and the dsp on the powered speakers/monitors is good giving a good reproduction of our sound - guitar mandolin double bass and three vocals - i have been using this set upo for twelve months now , my only problem was getting hold of the gear as it sold out on arrival at my ;ocal shop in leeds.

Subject: RE: buying a new pa system
From: jimmyt
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 05:33 PM

We went through the same thing about 6-9 months ago and for our purposes, playing rooms of a couple hundred people, I found our best fit was DB Lyric Opera series Powered speakers, and another smaller apir of powered speakers for monitors, 2 speaker stands, a 14 channel MAckie Board. We already had mikes and stands, so the total for all ths equipment was around $3000. These speakers are light light light. And pack a punch. PM me of you want more info. We run three guitars, a banjo miked 5 voices through the system and it is very nive for our needs

Subject: RE: buying a new pa system
From: JedMarum
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 06:27 PM

CN's comment re Soundcraft mimics my wn above re: igh Quality electornics, low cost mixer ... Soundcraft makes Spirit Folio - it's often presented as low cost gear - but the truth it's much better quality electronics then most, including the top end stuff. Made and engineered in the UK.

Size does matter, I;m afraid - when you're talking PA for 200 or more. 12's will not give you a strong low end, even for acoustic music. It's true, rock and rollers like lotsa 15"s - but tehre's good reason to have 'em at the fornt of house for vocals and acoustic instruments.

The systems I've seen that do OK with 12's use multiples per side, and usually couple 'em with subs ... the industry has standardized on using a 15 and good horn per side - as the basic building blocks of modern PA. With good reason. It works well.

12's and good electronics and skill at the mixer can give you a good sound, for small room. But I am sure you're much better off with 15's.

Subject: RE: buying a new pa system
From: shepherdlass
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 04:52 PM

Got to agree with Jed - go for more than you need - not a massive 5K rig or anything, but what you want is headroom. The lower you're cranking the sound relative to its maximum capabilities the less it'll distort. Sounds obvious but it's so easy to overlook.

Also, take it from someone who's learned this the hard way, go for portability. If you have the choice between a huge combo amp that combines power and mixer ensure you have someone with the muscles to lift it. I regularly curse my decision (usually after crushing a finger) not to go for the separate power amp and a mini-mixer by Spirit Folio or Mackie rather than the great back-breaking monster I did buy! Again, it sounds obvious - it IS obvious but there's enough of us mugs around who get it wrong.

Speakers - Celestion are good and reliable in the same kind of category as the Bose 802s.

Subject: RE: buying a new pa system
From: Highlandman
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 04:56 PM

Citt, what's the beef with Behringer? In my case, cost is a major concern, but then again so is not buying crap that sounds bad.
Could you elaborate, specifically? I've been thinking about getting a new system myself... Thanks
-HM

Subject: RE: buying a new pa system
From: Pete Peterson
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 07:01 PM

LUCAS???

Not the Lucas that is the subject of all those jokes concerning the electrical systems of British cars?

"The evil men do lives after them"-- I would avoid, lest his ghost is still walking about

Subject: RE: buying a new pa system
From: mandotim
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 06:43 AM

I think L.U.C.A.S in this case stands for Lightweight Ultra Compact Amplification System; nothing at all to do with the electrics of cars. The systems are made in Germany, and are beautifully engineered, a bit like Mercs and BMWs. Well, Mercs and BMWs that aren't built in America, anyway.
Tim from Bit on the Side

Subject: RE: buying a new pa system
From: rhyzla
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 07:04 AM

Thankyou everybody for the comments - it has been very useful!!