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singing the Sanctus

mkebenn 19 Jun 05 - 12:34 PM
Joe Offer 19 Jun 05 - 12:53 PM
mkebenn 19 Jun 05 - 01:11 PM
Le Scaramouche 19 Jun 05 - 01:16 PM
*daylia* 19 Jun 05 - 07:32 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Jun 05 - 07:55 PM
Liz the Squeak 19 Jun 05 - 08:00 PM
Charmion 19 Jun 05 - 08:09 PM
Mooh 19 Jun 05 - 10:40 PM
Susan of DT 19 Jun 05 - 11:24 PM
Wilfried Schaum 20 Jun 05 - 02:39 AM
Peace 20 Jun 05 - 02:46 AM
GUEST,Paul Burke 20 Jun 05 - 04:16 AM
Lanfranc 20 Jun 05 - 05:24 AM
*daylia* 20 Jun 05 - 09:10 AM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 20 Jun 05 - 09:51 AM
GUEST,mkebenn@work 20 Jun 05 - 10:43 AM
Joe Offer 21 Jun 05 - 12:42 AM
Wilfried Schaum 21 Jun 05 - 02:49 AM
GUEST,Paul Burke 21 Jun 05 - 03:42 AM
Stephen R. 21 Jun 05 - 09:13 PM
Joe Offer 22 Jun 05 - 03:14 PM
Highlandman 22 Jun 05 - 03:51 PM
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Subject: singing the Sanctus
From: mkebenn
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 12:34 PM

Is there any proscription against singing the Sanctus (Holy,Holy,Holy Lord) outside the context of the Eucharist? I'm an Anglican if that makes a difference. Any info appreciated. Mike


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Subject: RE: singing the Sanctus
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 12:53 PM

Not in the Roman church, Mike. The Mass has been a standard musical format for centuries, and has often been performed in a concert setting. In fact, many settings of the Mass are meant strictly for performance, not for worship. I'm sure the Anglicans also accept concert performances of the Mass.

-Joe Offer-


I guess "format" is not quite the word I want - what IS the word I'm searching for?


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Subject: RE: singing the Sanctus
From: mkebenn
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 01:11 PM

Thanks,Joe. I'm sure if it's okay with Rome, England wouldn't mind. Maybe the word you wanted was venue? Mike


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Subject: RE: singing the Sanctus
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 01:16 PM

Genuflect, genuflect, genuflect!


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Subject: RE: singing the Sanctus
From: *daylia*
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 07:32 PM

Here's some info re the Sanctus, from the Catholic encylopedia.

It's the oldest prayer of the Mass, dating back to the 1st Century. The words are taken from Isaiah 6:   

...I saw the Lord Yahweh seated on a high throne; his train filled the sanctuary; above him stood seraphs, each one with six wings: two to cover its face, two to cover its feet and two for flying.

And they cried out one to another in this way,
"Holy holy holy is Yahweh Sabaoth,
His glory fills the whole earth."


According to tradition, the angels sing the Sanctus "unceasingly" in the highest realms of Heavens.   I'm no theologian, but I don't see any harm in following their example.   As long as we can realize the harmony, and stay in time, of course...


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Subject: RE: singing the Sanctus
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 07:55 PM

There are plenty of settings of the Mass specifically for concert performances, as Joe said, and it'd be very much frowned on to use them for an actual Mass. Too distracting from the business in hand.


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Subject: RE: singing the Sanctus
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 08:00 PM

As a former Churchwarden and present chorister, I can safely say that there is no prohibition on singing the Sanctus at any time of the year, at any venue or in any language. We're doing it in Latin in 4 weeks time at St James' Piccadilly.....

Although there are Mass settings specifically for concert performances, they are far more enthralling and spiritual when sung in a Mass setting - especially if it's a mediaeval cathedral or abbey.......

LTS


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Subject: RE: singing the Sanctus
From: Charmion
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 08:09 PM

I have sung in concert masses staged (yes, that's the appropriate word, especially if you're talking the Verdi Requiem) in theatres and opera houses as well as churches and church halls, but the most uncomfortable but perhaps most effective was a Mozart Requiem sung by a community choir in a school gymnasium. Small liturgical works such as motets and anthems are often sung in concerts, and I hear them on the radio all the time.

Go ahead and sing your Sanctus out loud, in public, with pride and pleasure! That's what it's really for.

Charmion


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Subject: RE: singing the Sanctus
From: Mooh
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 10:40 PM

Proscription? No, not at all, Anglican or otherwise, near as I know. Besides the various and good examples given above, why should we be discouraged from praise?

Peace, Mooh.


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Subject: RE: singing the Sanctus
From: Susan of DT
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 11:24 PM

Yeah, but what's the word - it's not a venue, and not a format - maybe just "form." I'm sure there's a specific word for it. It's like a format, a set structure which composers use.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: singing the Sanctus
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 02:39 AM

Joe - feature? manifestation? form (like in German), methinks; but I'm no native speaker.

Praise and enjoy
Wilfried


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Subject: RE: singing the Sanctus
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 02:46 AM

"I guess "format" is not quite the word I want - what IS the word I'm searching for?"

Form?


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Subject: RE: singing the Sanctus
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 04:16 AM

I think 'form' is the word Joe's after.

All this reminds me of 11 o'clock sung mass at St. Luke's. In thise days, the pubs opened at twelve sharp, and closed at two. So the real hard cases would hang out at the back of the church, and depart the moment they had legalistically 'heard' mass - the Pater Noster IIRC. Shortly before this the Agnus Dei was sung by a soprano with a ferocious wobble. My younger brother thought the words were 'aren't you staying', directed at the boozers who filed out shortly afterwards.


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Subject: RE: singing the Sanctus
From: Lanfranc
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 05:24 AM

RITALMAO (Rolling in the aisle....)

"Aren't you staying, Aren't you staying
Qui tollis pecatur mundi...."

Alan


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Subject: RE: singing the Sanctus
From: *daylia*
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 09:10 AM

I think the word you're looking for is "liturgical form".   This article outlines the teachings of the Catholic church on Sacred Music

Musicians fulfill an important and necessary function in the sacred Liturgy. But whether fully trained professionals or ardent amateurs (i.e., those who do it for love), all must remember that the purpose of the music is to implement the Liturgy, not to entertain the faithful or glorify themselves. The motto of all ought to be: Non nobis Domine, sed nomini tuo da gloriam! (Not to us, Lord, but to your Name be all glory!)....

While some liturgists may try to tell us that music becomes sacred by being used for worship, the notion that function (or use) creates form (or meaning) is hardly self-evident. Most musicians, musicologists and music therapists would strongly disagree -- not to mention Cardinal Ratzinger, the popes, and Vatican directives! The nature of the thing will determine its use, not vice versa...

So what does this mean?

If it sounds like a Broadway ballad, it belongs on Broadway, not the altar. If it sounds like a "golden oldie", sing it at home. If it stirs feelings of a non-sacred nature, it does not belong in a sacred place. If sounds like a rock group or a mariachi band, then it may be fine for entertainment at the parish picnic or in the gym, but not at Mass, and not in the temple wherein the Sacrifice of Calvary is re-presented.


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Subject: RE: singing the Sanctus
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 09:51 AM

I was always impressed by the Les Troubadours du roi baudouin. Directed by Father Guido Haazen. Missa Luba Congolese Mass. their version of the Sanctus, truly a wonderful thing to hear live; it was used in the movie "If"


Yours, aye. Dave


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Subject: RE: singing the Sanctus
From: GUEST,mkebenn@work
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 10:43 AM

Thank you all very much! Mike


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Subject: RE: singing the Sanctus
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 12:42 AM

The article daylia linked to was pretty good, but it certainly was not official Catholic teaching. It's mostly personal opinion, and it has a strong traditionalist bias.

My point is the Mass is not only a liturgical form for music - it has also long been a secular form, for concert pieces that are not primarily religious in intent. Leonard Bernstein's Mass, for example, was not written for worship.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: singing the Sanctus
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 02:49 AM

Sing whatever you like, whenever you like. - it mustn't be only in the usual context, if it makes you happy.


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Subject: RE: singing the Sanctus
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 03:42 AM

Experts in the hsitory of Klezmer tell me that many tunes derive from Jewish liturgy, the singing of the synagogue cantors. Before Jewish music naturalised itself in America, the European tradition revolved largely around weddings- these being among the few occasions the often poor Jews of Europe got a break that was not dominated by religious ritual. Music derived from familiar religious contexts would be used to emphasise the more solemn parts of the ceremony, such as when the couple were reminded of their new duties as married people. As Klezmer developed, the tunes were released from this role, and became purely performance pieces.

Though I haven't heard the Sanctus Hornpipe, or Asperges Me Jig yet.


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Subject: RE: singing the Sanctus
From: Stephen R.
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 09:13 PM

Really, I suppose it depends on just what the question means. If it means, Could we sing the Sanctus in Evensong, it would depend on what church you go to. If it means, Can we sing it in the shower, the answer is, Who's to forbid it? If it means, Can the threefold "Holy" be used in some other context, the answer is: Sure. Think of the Protestant hymn "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, early in the morning . . ." We Pravoslavs have a number of troparia and stichera that quote them, for example the morning troparia the first of which is: Arising from sleep, we fall down before thee, O Good One, and the angelic hymn we sing to thee, O Mighty One: Holy, holy, holy art thou, O God; through the Theotokos, have mercy on us."

Stephen


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Subject: RE: singing the Sanctus
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 03:14 PM

I don't know if it's so much a matter of whether somebody can forbid the use of the "sanctus" and enforce it. It's a sacred text, something that's special to many people. As such, I think its sacred nature should be respected, even by those who do not hold it to be sacred - just as I thing the Koran should be respected as sacred by those who are not Muslim.

And generally, I think the "sanctus" can be performed in a concert setting and be considered respectful. I have to say that there are times when I get uneasy about Christian texts being used in non-Christian religious practices. One example is the use of Gregorian Chant for New Age healing, by people who do not know and do not respect the meaning of the texts being chanted.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: singing the Sanctus
From: Highlandman
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 03:51 PM

As an Anglican I am sure that there are no qualms about "performing" liturgical texts outside the church. I think the Roman Catholic position is the same. (There is a tradition of not singing Glorias or Alleluias during Lent, though, in or out of the church).
But I have heard that there are some Eastern Orthodox liturgical hymns which, in their tradition, are prescribed to be used only in the church and only at certain times at that. Any 'catters who can enlighten us here? And going even farther afield from my "known world," I understand there are indigenous songs/chants/whatevers which the followers of those tradition feel quite strictly are profaned by singing them out of place.
So the original question was a good one. We do want to be at least a little careful about not offending those to whom these things may be very sacred.
-HM


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