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BS: F 1

Tam the man 19 Jun 05 - 02:56 PM
Tam the man 19 Jun 05 - 03:11 PM
GUEST,G-Spot 19 Jun 05 - 03:14 PM
Bill D 19 Jun 05 - 03:15 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Jun 05 - 07:54 PM
Bonecruncher 19 Jun 05 - 08:12 PM
Peace 19 Jun 05 - 08:22 PM
John MacKenzie 20 Jun 05 - 03:41 AM
Stu 20 Jun 05 - 06:33 AM
Malc R 20 Jun 05 - 08:20 AM
John MacKenzie 20 Jun 05 - 08:28 AM
catspaw49 20 Jun 05 - 10:29 AM
Stu 20 Jun 05 - 10:50 AM
Tam the man 20 Jun 05 - 01:16 PM
Tam the man 20 Jun 05 - 01:53 PM
Liz the Squeak 20 Jun 05 - 03:15 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Jun 05 - 03:29 PM
catspaw49 20 Jun 05 - 04:09 PM
Susu's Hubby 20 Jun 05 - 04:55 PM
GUEST,Peter Woodruff 20 Jun 05 - 05:32 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Jun 05 - 05:44 PM
Nigel Parsons 20 Jun 05 - 07:28 PM
Bonecruncher 20 Jun 05 - 07:54 PM
catspaw49 20 Jun 05 - 10:56 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Jun 05 - 08:26 PM
catspaw49 21 Jun 05 - 10:31 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Jun 05 - 06:44 AM
jpk 22 Jun 05 - 05:17 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Jun 05 - 05:44 PM
Torctgyd 23 Jun 05 - 04:40 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Jun 05 - 06:28 AM
jpk 23 Jun 05 - 05:02 PM
GUEST 24 Jun 05 - 02:00 PM
jpk 24 Jun 05 - 04:29 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 25 Jun 05 - 04:22 AM
jpk 25 Jun 05 - 05:52 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 25 Jun 05 - 06:59 PM
jpk 27 Jun 05 - 05:41 PM
HuwG 28 Jun 05 - 11:31 AM
Bonecruncher 28 Jun 05 - 07:49 PM
jpk 29 Jun 05 - 05:26 PM
GUEST,Jon 29 Jun 05 - 08:14 PM
HuwG 30 Jun 05 - 03:44 AM
Bassic 30 Jun 05 - 04:29 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 30 Jun 05 - 06:37 AM
GUEST,jpk 30 Jun 05 - 05:23 PM

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Subject: BS: F 1
From: Tam the man
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 02:56 PM

What a farace that American Grand Prix is, I just hope that next year they will run it in America again, mind you somehow I don't think so.

Tom


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: Tam the man
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 03:11 PM

This is what happens when you keep secrets from everyone.

Money is more important to these bastards than anything else.

Tom


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: GUEST,G-Spot
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 03:14 PM

Obviously, Tam, you feel very strongly about a subject of which I know nothing. I am sorry it has ticked you. Want to rant some?

GS


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 03:15 PM

Most American goods, services and events seem to be created in China and India anyway these days....whatever they do, we can watch it by satellite.


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 07:54 PM

I feel desperately sorry for all the American fans, who were kept in the dark till the start of the race, and then watched in disbelief as cars pulled into the pit lane at the end of the parade lap, leaving just six cars to compete for a major championship round.

The whole sorry affair leaves a nasty taste in the mouth, as the obvious answer to the problem was completely overlooked.

All they needed to do was yellow flag the danger area around turn thirteen, leaving them to race normally, and on a level footing, for the rest of each lap.

Because they allowed six cars to race, they may now claim that there is no justification for refunds, thereby ripping off all the people who paid $80 or more to watch the worst travesty of all time.

Over half of the drivers had varying degrees of tyre failure in practice including two that exploded, resulting in Ralph Schumacher hitting the wall for the second time in two years.

In light of that, the tyre company and the drivers could not be expected to proceed without something being done to reduce the risk. IMO, the FIA were responsible for nothing being done. They run the thing, and they can change rules in a crisis.

As a UK fan, I feel an apology is owed to all who watched, and money is owed to those who were at the Brickyard.

F1 will take years to rcover from the effects of this, and might possibly never again visit the USA. I think the Americans will, after things have cooled down, react with their usual generosity, and eventually forgive.

I don't think the FIA deserve it however.

Disgusted F1 fanatic
Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 08:12 PM

Yes. Don, the FIA certainly made a mockery of this race.
Just a couple of thoughts:-
1) Considering FIA rulws stipulate that there must be a minimum of twelve cars to start a race, and this time there were only six, the race must, by definition, be declared invalid.
The FIA could argue that all the cars started the parade lap but most of them did not complete that lap.
The race starts when the lights go off and at that point only six cars started.
2) One American punter stated that the cost of his ticket for the race-day was 85 dollars (about £45).
If that is the case why does the same show at Silverstone cost £120 for race day?
Another case of rip-off Britain?
Colyn.


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 08:22 PM

Sorry, all, but to me watching cars race is as exciting as watching grass grow. Ranks up there with tennis and quilting.


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 03:41 AM

Yes I was jealous of how cheap the tickets are in the US, and yes I've always thought that we were ripped off over here. It's hard though to be jealous of the farcical goings on at Indianapolis yesterday. Just wait and see how many law suits result from it, the lawyers will be the only winners from this.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: Stu
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 06:33 AM

Agree 100% Don, except we should not apologise but are also owed an apology.

As with many long-term F1 fans, I spent the race wondering how low this sport can go.

If the US fans heard as we did on the UK coverage the team orders Ross Brawn gave to the two Ferraris fourteen laps from the end, to stop racing and cruise to the end, they would have understandably been even more pissed off.

If I had paid to watch that debacle I would have been fuming and there is no doubt that someone, somewhere, needs a rocket up their arse for this (though I think several parties are to blame).

Pathetic.


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: Malc R
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 08:20 AM

I whole heartedly agree, the "race" was a farce and should have been declared void, or postponed until another date.

The culprit of course is Michelin, whose advertisments in the past used to boast that their tyres could go around the world twice, now apparently they cannot even produce a tyre that will last 73 laps of a race track. Guess whose tyres I won't be putting on my car or motorbike in future.

Peeved F1 fan

Malc


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 08:28 AM

Michelin at one point pulled out of F1 and eventually relented and came back in 1996 [I think] There has been talk of only allowing one tyre manufacturer in F1 and yesterdays contretemps certainly reduced the chances of the FIA choosing Michelin for that role.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 10:29 AM

From a technical standpoint it can be argued that this was in large part a setup problem as much as a tire problem......Witness NASCAR left fronts at Pocono....only one group of cars affected and they were all running aggressive setups on the LF. As far as that turn goes, well, it's not something new even with the grinding. It's been there since 1909!

It really is irrelevant as the attitude which killed the race has been dominating F1 for years. Argue with them as you will, but the NASCAR people know who pays the bills whereas Bernie and Company sadly think racing has nothing to do with fans. I can't imagine Brian France and Mike Helton allowing anything like this to happen.

And considering the rather dismal state of affairs and constant bickering going on in the US open wheel racing community, I'm amazed that no one has tried to blame this on Tony George! LMAO

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: Stu
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 10:50 AM

I agree it is Michelin's fault in the first instance, but alot more could have been done to save the race in one form or another for the sake of the fans.

I don't think even Ferrari could have done any differently but race, but if Schumacher ends up winning the championship because of this result, I'll be sick everywhere.

It's time to see real racing back in F1, and turn it back to the mighty sport it once was.


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: Tam the man
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 01:16 PM

I agree that is what happens when you keep secrets, and money rather than entertaintment is inportant along with safety.

I was going to post this thread as Obit F1 in America because thanks to F1 they have ruined the chance of American F1.

So Thanks F1

Tom


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: Tam the man
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 01:53 PM

However that F1 for you, I might be wrong in what I'm saying however these are just my views.

There is now news that in 2008 some drivers/teams might get togther to have a different competion, I just hope so.

Tom


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 03:15 PM

In these days of fossil fuel shortage, energy crises and consvervation being the watchword - is there really a place for motorracing?

And Brucie - you think quilting is boring... well, you've never come quilting with ME!!

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 03:29 PM

Actually Bonecruncher, I believe you will find that the parade lap counts as one lap of the race. That is certainly what the commentary team reported yesterday.

In defence of Michelin, they were caught out by the diamond cutting of that section. Perhaps they should not have been, and undoubtedly they will be blamed by many.

I am not sure that this is entirely fair. Who, in the history of the world, has never made a mistake? I believe that the track grinding was not notified before their arrival, so there was no chance to test tyres on any similar surface.

The mistake having been made, however, Michelin offered to fly in alternative tyres. This offer was refused by the FIA.

The Michelin shod teams offered to run without gaining championship points, with the Bridgestone runners at front of grid, if they could change their tyres, for the benefit of fans. This offer was refused by the FIA.

A chicane was requested, with the race run under similar no points conditions. This was refused by the FIA.

No one seems to have considered my suggestion that the race be run with that section yellow flagged throughout, which, IMHO would have disadvantaged nobody.

The obvious bad guys here are the sport's governing body, who have the power to change rules for safety reasons, but chose not to.

No blame can possibly attach to the drivers, who had to obey orders, as witness David Coulthard's radio call to his team on the warm up lap, asking to be allowed to race in spite of the high risk to life and limb.

I have never much liked Bernie Eccleston, and I can only hope that the legions of lawyers currently girding up their loins will all descend on him and his colleagues in the FIA.

That's the end of the rant. Sorry folks, but I have just seen a sport that I have loved since the days of Moss and Fangio virtually destroyed.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 04:09 PM

Don, I think you can see that I completely agree. Bernie has never given two shits for a fan outside of whatever money he can milk out of them through a track owner. The FIA has their collective heads so far up their asses that they cannot see what this rigidity is doing and has done. I am a long time fan of virtually all forms of racing and my love for the drivers and teams of F1 over the years is not diminished by this mess. How can you diminish the legend of a Fangio or Moss or Clark or Stewart?

But I follow NASCAR as well and for all of their "make it up as you go along" rules, the fans have always come first and they would never have allowed this to happen.

BTW, with only 6 cars racing(?), Schumacher needed his ass kicked for that move on poor Barrichello coming out of the pits. Yet another reason why Schumi couldn't lick Jimmy Clark's shoes,

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 04:55 PM

This reminds me that a couple of years ago, the IRL was to race at Texas Motor Speedway. They cancelled the race the week before it was to run because the drivers were complaining about the G-forces that the turns placed upon their frail little bodies.


Give me a freakin' break.


Shut up and race!



Hubby


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: GUEST,Peter Woodruff
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 05:32 PM

I want to watch you when the Rapture comes!

Peter Woodruff


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 05:44 PM

Missing the point, SH. Have a look at their neck muscles some time.

The F1 drivers were under orders not to race.

I think, if it had been left to them the race would have been held as normal, with a high likelihood of some body (driver, marshal, or spectator) dying as a result.

Not quite the same as whinging about G forces, which are, in point of fact, already higher in F1 than in any other form of motorsport.

The FIA are the villains here.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 07:28 PM

DonT:
I'm not sure the F1A are the villains.
Michelin provided the tyres for the majority of the race teams, and have been progressively making their tyres for higher performance.
Each team could have two complete sets of tyres available, and neither of the sets of Michelin tyres were sufficiently safe for the rigours of this track (the design & specs of which would have been available in advance)
The teams running on Michelins (a good move up to now) wanted the race slowed down, by the addition of a chicane, once they realised that the advantage had passed to those driving on Bridgestone tyres.
I think the outcome (only Bridgestone users racing) will have the effect of making the teams realise that they can hold one of their two sets of tyres available as a safety option. Even if it means they can no longer have two slightly different sets of over-engineered tyres


Nigel


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 07:54 PM

Don
Sorry, but if the race is scheduled for 73 (or whatever) laps then those laps are counted from the time the red lights go out.
The Parade Lap cannot, by definition, be one of those laps.
Certainly, when I was single-seater racing (a long time ago and way down the lists) a ten-lap race meant ten laps from when the flag went down.
Point for discussion - IMHO John Surtees was the best racing driver ever. He was World Champion on both motorbike and car.
Should the FIA return to the old system when we had both Grand Prix cars and F1 cars (different classes) racing in the same race? Starts of 30-plus cars certainly gave entertainment value.
Colyn.


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 10:56 PM

It was CART and not the IRL who refused to race at Texas btw. Minor point....

Pardon me folks but it is the lack of interest toward the fans which puts the FIA at fault here. For those of you who are "Tunnelheads" you heard at least half a dozen workable solutions and none were acted upon. In many cases the FIA has modified rules for a particular situation but here they were as rigid as hell.

Smartest thing I have heard come out of this is that the CCWS (formerly CART) is honoring all Indy GP tickets for their Cleveland race. Could be the exact shot in the arm that they need right now. If Tony George had the sense to poor piss out of a boot he'd have done the same for all IRL road races next year.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 08:26 PM

As I said above, Michelin cocked up. They did however indicate that they were more than willing to accept any penalty imposed if they were allowed to put things right in any one of several ways.

Hence, they were the cause of the problem, but not, repeat not the villains of the piece, an honour whih IMO goes to those who actively prevented any viable solution being accepted, the FIA.

Catspaw, I agree. The worst thing about all this is the contempt shown for the right of fans, particularly those who paid to be there, to see the race they expected. Even a ticket price refund would not cover the cost of travel and accommodation, but it would have been a good start. It should however have been met by Michelin, and the FIA, and not by the owners of the facility.

Can't agree about Surtees Bonecruncher. The car/motorcycle championship double is certainly a very special achievement, but may owe more to the fact that no other champion tried to get both.

Greatest of all time? Several possibilities, which would have to include the likes of Fangio, Carraciola, and Nuvolari, as well as Senna and Schumacher.

Most successful of all time. No contest. One look at the record books brings up our Michael S.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 10:31 PM

Just an FYI article that I thought touched some of the right bases for me. The author is Pete Pistone and I really have to agree with that first paragraph"

Formula Done

One reason NASCAR's popularity keeps climbing is the incredible stupidity displayed by most other auto racing entities. While the NASCAR machine keeps rolling forward, it seems any other racing on wheels is on a mission of self-destruction.

The split in American open wheel racing, the division in sports car competition, short track racing mismanagement...you name the racing and it has problems.

But what happened Sunday in the United States Grand Prix takes the cake. The boycott by Michelin Formula One teams, which left a six car field to take the green flag, was the most embarassing thing to happen to auto racing since Jason Priestley worked ABC's booth for IRL telecasts.

When the tire problems first surfaced, there should have been an immediate leap into action to find a way of either fixing the problem or coming up with a short-term solution to at least get through the weekend. But rather than installing a chicane to slow cars down through the final corner or allowing teams to change tires after qualifying, which is forbidden by Formula One rules, the high and mighty Formula One brigade did nothing.

Don't blame the Indianapolis Motor Speedway for the debacle. Speedway President Joie Chitwood and his staff were never once involved in the decision-making process.

"We were aware that Michelin had submitted a letter to the FIA last night around 10pm," Chitwood said. "This morning there were rumors that something was going to occur. We were not aware of what was going to happen on the grid today."

No, rather than working with the tire manufacturer and the governing body, Chitwood and the IMS staff were forced to witness the unbelievable as the fourteen Michelin-clad cars were parked after Sunday's warm-up lap.

As the crowd sat and watched, it finally began to sink in. The self-proclaimed best drivers in the world were staging a walk out, leaving a grid that wouldn't have been enough to run a heat race at your local short track let alone a world championship grand prix.

Boos, profanities, water bottles and other garbage began flying from the grandstand. A stampede of fans headed to the IMS ticket windows demanding a refund. And all Chitwood and his staff could do is try and pick up the pieces left behind by their world class visitors.

"We'll be evaluating our position on what's going to happen in the future," Chitwood said.

My guess is that you can kiss the United States Grand Prix at Indianapolis Motor Speedway good-bye. Attendance has been on the wane since the event was first staged six years ago. And this latest farce will be the final nail in the egotistical Bernie Ecclestone's U.S. plans.

The F-1 czar showed his class earlier in the week when the topic of Danica Patrick came up.

"I think she should be dressed in white like all domestic appliances," the F-1 impresario commented.

Bravo Bernie. In only six months, you have already claimed the 2005 trophy for "RacingOne Jerk of the Year" for those comments alone

Sunday's deal at Indianapolis may be good enough to have already earned you the 2006 award.


I don't know about the bike thing either but given the right equipment in both series, I think there have been several with the talent. And I would never even try to pick the best of all time in GP racing.......just way too many and some of the greatest were never champs, ala Moss and Gurney. But what do I know? I may be the last Taffy Von Tripps fan left in the world!

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 06:44 AM

Not the last, Catspaw. We share that one.

On the subject of the drivers in this SNAFU, we heard at least one (Coulthard) on the radio, asking to be allowed to race during the parade lap. I'm sure there were others too. But they were under orders. Coulthard's request was met with a blunt and final "Pull into pit lane".

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: jpk
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 05:17 PM

yep just like a bunch of whimpering premadonna's,any of them little boys ever done any real racing,how bout we put them up aginst one or two of our girls,bet they couldn't deal with women drivers better than they are,our lady drivers are as good as the guys. and to think iused to like f1 back in the days of jackie stewart and team tyrell.


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 05:44 PM

Sure jpk,

It would be better to put 'em up against your girls, 'cos your men don't seem capable of cutting it in F1.

The only one that made a success out of crossing the Atlantic in that direction is Jaques Villeneuve, and, last I heard he was a Canadian.

On the other hand Mansell had little trouble with your guys when he won F1 and Indie back to back.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: Torctgyd
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 04:40 AM

I'll admit it up front: I'm not and F1 fan (or any motor sport really) but F1 is truly boring and has been for years.

The only exiting action takes place up to the first corner. There then follows an hour and a half or so of cars processing round the circuit with the eventual winner winning by dint of; his pit crew being faster than anyone else's; a better refueling strategy (yawn!) and automatic controls relieving the driver of much of the resposibility for the operation of the car. Hopefully the fiasco at Indianapolis will not only shake up the tyre suppliers but cause a revamp of the whole thing to make it INTERESTING.

Compare F1 with motorcycle racing. F1 is a very poor second for entertainment (and no, I'm not equating entertainment with crashes and the deaths of drivers).

T


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 06:28 AM

It's just not as easy to swap places five times a lap, when your vehicle is five feet wide, as opposed to eighteen inches of bike.

However, the new regulations this year have produced much more exciting racing, with lots of overtaking, and a more level playing field.

I too would like to see technology removed so that driver skills counted more towards the outcome. But, in the end, it's the driver that matters. Schumacher for one is good for half a second per lap in any car. That's why his team mates have beaten him only on very rare occasions.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: jpk
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 05:02 PM

yep real racing;don't even know how to shift with out a button on the wheel and a ligth to tell them when;make evey one watch the old movie grand prix then take the sport back a few years[by the way that was jackie stewart of the course a nubergring in the movie].


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 02:00 PM

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, jpk, but "Grand Prix" was a MOVIE, a Hollywood movie, shot on location around the F1 world championship, by an American film crew who managed to Piss off almost everybody in F1.

It bore little relation to the realities of European motor racing, and, with the exception of the more sensationalised comments about the different ways of getting killed, was factually inaccurate.

Jackie Stewart, Jim Clark, and Graham Hill (and several Americans e.g. Dan Gurney, Phil Hill, and others) were indeed great racers.
You should maybe ask them, where possible, whether they would prefer their situation, in which large numbers of drivers did not live long enough to retire, or the new, safer, system.

I keep hearing this crap about old vs. new sportsman, and it makes me puke.

It's much the same as people comparing 40s football legend Stanley Matthews with, say David Beckham. Once Stan had the ball, no one could take it off him, and he would carve through the opposition, pass to a teammate, and .....GOAL.

The point is that Stan, bless him, would not even catch up with the ball in today's much faster game, and ball skills count for nothing without possession.

Same-O, same-O Formula One.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: jpk
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 04:29 PM

can ya read guest, i plainly stated MOVIE. and i know they pissed off a lot of people while making it,stewart was teed because he had to wait 2or3 hours to get picked up after his mishap,an he was banged up a bit.


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 04:22 AM

That guest was me, jpk (front door was shut). I know you said movie, but you seemed to think that it somehow proved what you were trying to prove.

Not so!

It just isn't possible to go back in the way you suggest. What is needed is a way to go forward, which will bring driver skills to the fore, while keeping the fatalities out of the equation.

Nascar has lost several well known racers in the last few years, and nobody seems to be unduly worried by that. Now you may argue that those men knew the risks inherent in their sport, and chose to accept them. I just don't believe that there is any acceptable level of attrition in terms of human life.

We both know that the teams using Michelin tyres had a total of eleven failures during practice. This translates to a 50% chance of ending up in the wall if those tyres were used (probably greater than 50% in race conditions).

Ask yourself whether you would take those odds and back them with money, let alone with your life. Cowards? NO WAY!

The most likely outcome of racing in those conditions would be, IMHO, the same six finishers, and a pile of wreckage, injured or even dead drivers, marshals, or possibly spectators. That would have given the lawyers a huge payday.

My conclusions:-

Indianapolis Raceway management - NO BLAME.
Drivers (under orders not to race) - NO BLAME.
Michelin - RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ORIGINAL PROBLEM.
FIA - TOTALLY TO BLAME FOR REFUSING TO ACCEPT SOLUTIONS PROPOSED.



Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: jpk
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 05:52 PM

to tell the truth,don,in a lot of ways i agree with you,but all forms of motor racing are going down hill,the rasons are many and vari tremendously.heck start with nascar[same body templates for all the cars regardless of make]just one nit to pick,if you tried to list them all,would run out of room,maybe give them one new rule for all motor sports and start over.number one THE KISS RULE>keep it simple stupid,rule two???no more computers in the drivers seat maybe.


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 06:59 PM

Yeah, I can relate to that idea, jpk. The basis of putting the drivers back into the equation is, as you say keep it simple. Removal of aids that make it possible for a mediocre driver to keep one of those beasts on track looks like a great idea on the surface.

But (there's always a but, isn't there?), the thing that has most strongly contributed to the admitted boredom factor in motor sport, is the development of aerodynamics to the current level.

Remove all the computers, traction control, super accurate fuel measurement, push to pass rev boosters, active suspension, and pitlane telemetry, and you are left with cars that are still capable of outstripping the limits of the track.

Processional races are mainly due to one physical fact. There is only one fastest racing line. no matter how wide the road may be.

The only thing that alters that is super-long straights, where cars with a speed advantage of just 2 - 5 kph would have room to pass, and slipstreaming might get you ahead in a slightly slower car.

In European racing there are very few tracks which could be modified to fit this model, and, I believe even fewer Stateside.

Racing engineers will continue to develop and improve whatever package you allow until it results in the same situation again. It's what they do.

I don't know the answer, I wish I did, but motor racing has never stopped short of the physical limits of man and machine, and there's not much hope of rule changes altering that.

The future doesn't look that great, and it won't be improved by the kind of stupidity we saw last week.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: jpk
Date: 27 Jun 05 - 05:41 PM

to my mind it would be sort of like the older stockcar days[open wheel is a bit of animal all it's own]if chevy had a better shell than ford or dodge,who ever then you ran thet shape,the others would try to go one better next year[even when they said that they did not want anything to do with racing???chevy ate it up in sales when the monty carlo was winning it all]just don't make the cars all clones[that was what IROC was for one car all prep alike so as to be driver not the entire effort]and put the crews and crew chiefs wit and skill back into it[still there some what, but that is one place the computer is not helping,it tells the people the whats to do but not the why to do it.just look at the new breed of mech,mostly nothing more than chips and componet r and r er's.the computer tells them which but not why.


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: HuwG
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 11:31 AM

Purely as a point of information on something

Mike Hailwood, who was several times world motorcycle champion, raced in Formula 1 for some years in the 1970's. He never achieved much success, usually since he raced for uncompetitive teams (including Surtees).

I recall he received a medal for rescuing fellow driver Gianclaudio Reggazoni from his blazing car after a crash in one race.

Mike Hailwood died in a car crash in southern England only a few months after retiring from racing.


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 07:49 PM

Heard on the News today that Michelin have offered to reimburse race-goers their ticket fees, following the race fiasco.
Welldone, Michelin.
It's a pity the FIA did not make the same offer earlier!
Note to HuwG - the scar is still on the tree near Guildford that Mike Hailwood hit.
Colyn.


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: jpk
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 05:26 PM

do ya think the german boy could hack it in the older days[i doubt it but could be wrong][i don't dislike germans either part such myself] fer myself he is too damned arrogent,i know to be a good driver it's like being a good pilot,some is required but there can be too much[can get you and others hurt]


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 08:14 PM

But, in the end, it's the driver that matters. Schumacher for one is good for half a second per lap in any car. That's why his team mates have beaten him only on very rare occasions.

I disagree on 2 counts:

1. I don't believe even MS would race the lowest of the cars to victory and teams haven't been dominant over periods for driver skills alone.

2. There are such things as team orders.

Of course MS had to be good to get the best rides and terms though and I do think he can squeeze that little bit extra.


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: HuwG
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 03:44 AM

Oh dear, made a dog's breakfast of the link in my last post. Sorry.

There is no doubt that Michael Schumacher is one of the best F1 drivers of all time. However, don't forget that he has been driving one of the best funded cars on the circuit for most of his career.

Much of the boredom of F1 races for the last three or four seasons was due to the rigid equation whereby the team with the most money always won. I actually support some of the rules introduced this year, which level the playing field. No more obscene numbers of tyres, engines which run at huge outputs for one practice lap and then explode, and so on. I realise that this won't be much comfort to US fans.

Incidentally, after a race in nineteen-eighty something when a team suffered a catastrophic tyre failure during practice, Goodyear were able to provide several hundred tyres with harder tread compounds and stronger construction, within 24 hours. Why were Michelin unable to match this feat ?


****

With the construction rules currently written and enforced so rigidly, there is no scope for imaginative and innovative constructors such as Colin Chapman (or Renault's Bernard Dudot, who introduced the turbocharged engine to F1 in 1977) to upset the general procession.

Providing safety is given overriding concern, I would love to see a return to the days when, if the governing body had never heard of a technical innovation, it had to be allowed, rather than automatically disqualified as at present.


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: Bassic
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 04:29 AM

Re the tyres HuwG, Like Goodyear in the past, My understanding is that Michelin WERE able to supply the different grade of tyre and offered to do so once it became clear that the tyre they had planned to use was unsuitable. The difference this time was that the rules this year PREVENT a change of tyre to one different to that which has been nominated as the race tyre for the event. The nomination of tyre by the tyre companies takes place BE£FORE the race weekend and Michelin were cought out by changes to the track surface this year which caused their nominated tyre to wear out more quickly than expected. It was this part of the rule that caused the whole debacle, not Michelin being unable to supply an apropriate tyre for the conditions. The conditions had changed. Thats what Michelin didnt pick up on. That was clearly their fault and they freely admit that. In the interest of safety the tyre change should have been allowed this time and the teams allowed to race. The FIA`s job should have been to devise a penalty which removed the advantage from the Michelin teams that would have resulted. It seems that that was where the failure of imagination by the FIA occured!!! Grrrrr!!!!! A case of "throwing the baby out with the bath water"!


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 06:37 AM

Don't forget also HuwG, that M.S. joined a losing Ferrari team, that hadn't been a serious contender for 20 years. It is at least in part due to his skills, both in setting up, and in racing that they made a comeback.

I don't recall saying anything about Michael being able to win in a duff car. My point was that whatever car he drove would achieve better times with him at the wheel, than with any other driver.

He might, for example, drive a Jordan and finish one place higher than anyone else would manage.

That, for me, is what makes him the best driver currently on track.

IMHO, Jensen Button is made of the same stuff, and likely to be a champion if he gets into the right car.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: F 1
From: GUEST,jpk
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 05:23 PM

like to see ms go up aginst fangio,to bad it cann't happen


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