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BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'

Donuel 20 Jun 05 - 11:51 AM
Peace 20 Jun 05 - 11:53 AM
Donuel 20 Jun 05 - 12:00 PM
Le Scaramouche 20 Jun 05 - 12:29 PM
Rapparee 20 Jun 05 - 01:20 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Jun 05 - 05:21 PM
Troll 20 Jun 05 - 06:55 PM
akenaton 20 Jun 05 - 07:05 PM
Mr Happy 20 Jun 05 - 08:11 PM
Blissfully Ignorant 20 Jun 05 - 08:13 PM
Bobert 20 Jun 05 - 09:34 PM
dianavan 20 Jun 05 - 10:12 PM
Peace 21 Jun 05 - 10:28 AM
GUEST,petr 21 Jun 05 - 01:23 PM
Susu's Hubby 21 Jun 05 - 02:27 PM
Peace 21 Jun 05 - 02:30 PM
Susu's Hubby 21 Jun 05 - 02:39 PM
Peace 21 Jun 05 - 02:40 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Jun 05 - 03:08 PM
Susu's Hubby 21 Jun 05 - 05:49 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Jun 05 - 04:23 PM
Susu's Hubby 22 Jun 05 - 04:31 PM
Donuel 22 Jun 05 - 05:04 PM
CarolC 22 Jun 05 - 05:16 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Jun 05 - 05:56 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Jun 05 - 06:02 PM
Wesley S 22 Jun 05 - 06:03 PM
CarolC 22 Jun 05 - 06:26 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Jun 05 - 07:10 PM
Donuel 22 Jun 05 - 07:37 PM
GUEST,petr 22 Jun 05 - 08:01 PM
CarolC 22 Jun 05 - 08:53 PM
Donuel 23 Jun 05 - 08:37 AM
dianavan 23 Jun 05 - 11:42 PM
Donuel 24 Jun 05 - 08:59 AM
GUEST,Wolfgang 24 Jun 05 - 12:35 PM
GUEST 24 Jun 05 - 07:41 PM
dianavan 24 Jun 05 - 09:25 PM
freda underhill 10 Aug 05 - 06:10 AM
freda underhill 10 Aug 05 - 06:11 AM
Little Hawk 10 Aug 05 - 01:45 PM
Amos 10 Aug 05 - 02:49 PM
GUEST 10 Aug 05 - 04:36 PM
Peace 10 Aug 05 - 04:42 PM
CarolC 10 Aug 05 - 04:46 PM
Peace 10 Aug 05 - 06:32 PM
CarolC 10 Aug 05 - 06:41 PM
katlaughing 10 Aug 05 - 07:05 PM
katlaughing 10 Aug 05 - 07:11 PM
Richard Bridge 10 Aug 05 - 07:21 PM
Shakey 10 Aug 05 - 07:59 PM
CarolC 10 Aug 05 - 08:25 PM
Azizi 11 Aug 05 - 12:00 AM
Shakey 11 Aug 05 - 02:45 AM
freda underhill 11 Aug 05 - 02:51 AM
CarolC 11 Aug 05 - 12:29 PM
Little Hawk 11 Aug 05 - 02:47 PM
Susu's Hubby 11 Aug 05 - 05:32 PM
Peace 11 Aug 05 - 05:36 PM
Susu's Hubby 11 Aug 05 - 05:44 PM
Peace 11 Aug 05 - 05:55 PM
Amos 12 Aug 05 - 05:08 PM
Donuel 13 Aug 05 - 09:23 AM
freda underhill 13 Aug 05 - 10:21 AM
akenaton 13 Aug 05 - 12:13 PM
GUEST,Ron Davies 13 Aug 05 - 12:41 PM
Metchosin 13 Aug 05 - 01:58 PM
Peace 13 Aug 05 - 02:35 PM
Wolfgang 20 Aug 05 - 12:10 PM
CarolC 21 Aug 05 - 12:16 AM
freda underhill 21 Aug 05 - 06:49 AM
freda underhill 21 Aug 05 - 07:06 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 21 Aug 05 - 08:35 AM
GUEST 21 Aug 05 - 09:56 PM
Peace 22 Aug 05 - 12:03 AM
Little Hawk 22 Aug 05 - 01:55 PM
akenaton 22 Aug 05 - 03:07 PM
Bill D 22 Aug 05 - 04:35 PM
Susu's Hubby 22 Aug 05 - 06:21 PM
akenaton 22 Aug 05 - 06:31 PM
Amos 22 Aug 05 - 06:35 PM
Peace 22 Aug 05 - 06:44 PM
Little Hawk 22 Aug 05 - 06:48 PM
Frankham 22 Aug 05 - 07:10 PM
GUEST,NW 22 Aug 05 - 10:06 PM
Bill D 22 Aug 05 - 11:10 PM
Wolfgang 23 Aug 05 - 07:47 AM
GUEST 23 Aug 05 - 12:10 PM
GUEST 23 Aug 05 - 01:13 PM
Donuel 24 Aug 05 - 09:46 AM

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Subject: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 11:51 AM

Several retired military CNN talking heads said that the consensus among US generals is that there is no military solution to the Iraq war, only a political solution will succeed in Iraq.

When asked what that would entail they said uniformily,

"WE NEED MORE TROOPS to keep the peace so a political solution will have time to develop."

.......................

Why can't at least one news moderator just once crack up lauging so hard at those kind of interviews that they can not carry on?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 11:53 AM

One, two, three, what are we fighting for?
Don't ask 'cause I don't give a damn--

WHOOPS! Silly me. Wrong war.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 12:00 PM

One, two, three, what are we fighting for?
Don't ask 'cause I don't give a crap
we're stuck in ol Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 12:29 PM

They do need more men, but thousands to do anything. it's a bottomless pit.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 01:20 PM

Yeah, I heard LAST WEEK that the military in Iraq said that the solution to the insurgency had to be political, not military.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 05:21 PM

I don't know what the solution to Iraq's problems might be, but history suggests that no military force is ever big enough to stop people who are eager to die because they have been taught that killing infidels is a short cut to heaven.

Iraq is a no win situation for the Coalition, and they must be aware of the parallel with Vietnam. An army never beats a totally anonymous force. The enemy are virtually invisible until they detonate, while your own troops stand out as clearly identifiable targets.

Unless Britain and the USA work out a way to safely hand over the reins to the Iraqi government, the body bags will pile up higher and higher till the populations of those countries can't accept any more.

Then, Blair & Bush, watch out.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Troll
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 06:55 PM

Lets see how it plays out after the Iraqi Govt. finishes trying Saddam.
If they convict and execute him, the whole scene may change. Right now, he (and probably a lot of his countrymen) thinks he will return to power.

If he is gone, there is no likely sucessor to his power.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 07:05 PM

troll...You forget that the many of the people who are now engaged agaist the Americans, would have murdered Saddam years ago if they had been given the chance.

Saddams regime was secular, a very important point which the geniuses in the pentagon failed to grasp when they set off on their great adventure to bring democracy to the infidel.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Mr Happy
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 08:11 PM

'bring democracy to the infidel'?

Surely its the non-muslim foreign invaders who are the 'Infidels'!


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 08:13 PM

Everyone's an infidel in someone elses opinion...


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 09:34 PM

Well, like I've said in the past: When the US leaves there will be a civil war. Don't matter if it's tomorrow, next week, next year of next century...

Very stupid foriegn policy decision made by some very stupid people...

Future historians, should there be any in the wake of the America's Bush chapter, will not look kindly on this administration's complete ineptitude...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 10:12 PM

You are exactly right, Bobert. Its not like the Iraqis liked Saddam but they knew his ruthless dictatorship kept them from civil war.

The invasion by the U.S. has accomplished absolutely nothing.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 10:28 AM

To be an infidel in someone else's opinion is one thing. To be an infidel in someone else's country is another.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 01:23 PM

the closest comparison to Iraq, would be the Algerian insurgency in the 60s. The French ultimately won, but the French population was disgusted at their hardline tactics, and ultimately the leader of the Algerian insurgency became the president of Algeria after the French left.

By the way one of the young French officers in Algeria was Jacque Chirac. Which probably helps to explain why he tried to get the AMericans not to invade.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 02:27 PM

"The invasion by the U.S. has accomplished absolutely nothing."

dianavan,

I'm sorry you feel that way. Let me inform you on what the accomplishments are so that you may take an active part in the discussion.

Accomplishments in Iraq

... the first battalion of the new Iraqi Army has
graduated and is on active duty.

... over 60,000 Iraqis now provide security to their
fellow citizens.

... nearly all of Iraq's 400 courts are functioning.

... the Iraqi judiciary is fully independent.

... on Monday, October 6 power generation hit 4,518
megawatts - exceeding the prewar average.

... all 22 universities and 43 technical institutes
and colleges are open, as are nearly all primary and
secondary schools.

... by October 1, Coalition forces had rehab-ed over
1,500 schools - 500 more than scheduled.

... teachers earn from 12 to 25 times their former
salaries.

... all 240 hospitals and more than 1200 clinics are
open.

... doctors salaries are at least eight times what
they were under Saddam.

... pharmaceutical distribution has gone from
essentially nothing to 700 tons in May to a current
total of 12,000 tons.

... the Coalition has helped administer over 22
million vaccination doses to Iraq's children.

... a Coalition program has cleared over 14,000
kilometers of Iraq's 27,000 kilometers of weed-choked
canals which now irrigate tens of thousands of farms.
This project has created jobs for more than 100,000
Iraqi men and women.

... we have restored over three-quarters of prewar
telephone services and over two-thirds of the potable
water production.

... there are 4,900 full-service telephone
connections. We expect 50,000 by year-end.

... the wheels of commerce are turning. From bicycles
to satellite dishes to cars and trucks, businesses are
coming to life in all major cities and towns.

... 95 percent of all prewar bank customers have
service and first-time customers are opening accounts
daily.

... Iraqi banks are making loans to finance
businesses.

... the central bank is fully independent.

... Iraq has one of the worlds most growth-oriented
investment and banking laws.

... Iraq has a single, unified currency for the first
time in 15 years.

... satellite TV dishes are legal.

... foreign journalists aren't on 10-day visas paying
mandatory and extortionate fees to the Ministry of
Information for minders and other government spies.

... there is no Ministry of Information.

... there are more than 170 newspapers.

... you can buy satellite dishes on what seems like
every street corner.

... foreign journalists (and everyone else) are free
to come and go.

... a nation that had not one single element -
legislative, judicial or executive - of a
representative government, now does.

... in Baghdad alone residents have selected 88
advisory councils. Baghdad's first democratic transfer
of power in 35 years happened when the city council
elected its new chairman.

... today in Iraq chambers of commerce, business,
school and professional organizations are electing
their leaders all over the country.

... 25 ministers, selected by the most representative
governing body in Iraq's history, run the day-to-day
business of government.

... the Iraqi government regularly participates in
international events. Since July the Iraqi government
has been represented in over two dozen international
meetings, including those of the UN General Assembly,
the Arab League, the World Bank and IMF and, today,
the Islamic Conference Summit. The Ministry of Foreign
Affairs announced that it is reopening over 30
Iraqi embassies around the world.

... Shia religious festivals that were all but banned,
aren't.

... for the first time in 35 years, in Karbala
thousands of Shiites celebrate the pilgrimage of the
12th Imam.

... the Coalition has completed over 13,000
reconstruction projects, large and small, as part of a
strategic plan for the reconstruction of Iraq.

... Uday and Qusay are dead - and no longer feeding
innocent Iraqis to the zoo lions, raping the young
daughters of local leaders to force cooperation,
torturing Iraq's soccer players for losing games, or
murdering critics.

... children aren't imprisoned or murdered when their
parents disagree with the government.

... political opponents aren't imprisoned, tortured,
executed, maimed, or are forced to watch their
families die for disagreeing with Saddam.

... millions of longsuffering Iraqis no longer live in
perpetual terror.

... Saudis will hold municipal elections.

... Qatar is reforming education to give more choices
to parents.

... Jordan is accelerating market economic reforms.

... the Nobel Peace Prize was awarded for the first
time to an Iranian -- a Muslim woman who speaks out
with courage for human rights, for democracy and for
peace.

... Saddam is gone.

... Iraq is free.


Now that you have been educated and caught up in general terms of what has happened over the past couple of years, you may return to the discussion.



Hubby


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 02:30 PM

That was a bit snotty. You had me until "Now that you have been educated and caught up in general terms of what has happened over the past couple of years, you may return to the discussion." Then, you lost me.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 02:39 PM

brucie,


you're right. I apologize, dianavan. I didn't mean to be "snotty".


Thank you for taking me to task, brucie.



Hubby


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 02:40 PM

Sorry, buddy. I am having a crappy day. No business taking it out on you.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 03:08 PM

Hubby,

No one can deny the truth of what you say. That is indeed the situation.

How many years, do you think, will the Americans and Brits have to stay there, for those achievements to outlast their departure by more than a few weeks?

And how many of the finest young men of both countries, and how many Iraqis, will die before that happy day?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 05:49 PM

Don T.,


"How many years, do you think, will the Americans and Brits have to stay there, for those achievements to outlast their departure by more than a few weeks?"

The quick answer is that "I don't know". Is it a matter of years or is it only months? The powers that be in Iraq are the only ones that can answer that question.

As I have pointed out in previous posts on other threads, we still are showing a presence in Europe, Germany, Japan, and South Korea. The only one of those places that our troops are truly in any sort of immediate danger is in South Korea. We only have 36,000 troops standing between hardline communism in the north and freedom and democracy in the south.

But what does their presence in these countries do for that country? It continues to be a deterence against further aggression. We did not come into those countries as an occupying force. But we chose to stay to help rebuild and to stabilize. We continued to lose soldiers lives after WWII due to pockets of Japanese and German resistance. Just as what's happening now in Iraq. But the difference today is that we have 24 hour access to news about everyday occurences in Iraq as to where we had to catch news reels at the movie house on Saturdays about what was happening overseas.

Now, the challenge is that the enemy has changed. So our tactics have to change as well. The enemy is not, particularly, governments or soldiers in marked uniforms but it's people that can blend in to the normal looking background. It's much harder to know who the enemy is now that we are fighting religious ideals put forth by hardliners and extremists. They don't wear brown shirts or have a specific insignia on their breasts signifying who they are or what creed they subscribe to. Thus making it much more difficult to determine the good guys from the bad. And sadly, because of this, more innocent people die as a result. (please notice that I didn't say as "THE" result).

The new Iraqi government has invited the coalition forces to stay and help as long as they need us to in order for their forces to be trained and equipped as much as they need to be in order for them to determine who the enemy is and what the best tactics are to fight and put the squelch on the aggression that shows it's ugly head in day to day reports on the news. As long as they want us there, we, unfortunately, will have to continue hearing about incidents where troops are getting injured and killed while trying to help the Iraqis get to that point. On the news, now, most of what we are hearing is how the resistance has blown up an Iraqi police station or set off a car bomb in an Iraqi crowd.

For the most part, other than a few isolated incidents, the resistance has learned not to make continued targets of the coalition forces whenever there are easier targets around. This shows them to be the cowards that they truly are. Now, not only are the troops trying to protect themselves but are now having to be on the lookout for undetectable enemies not gunning for, so much, them anymore but for the average Iraqi citizen who is going out and trying to take advantage of the situation of having jobs, electricity, education, food, water, satellites and whatever other things they want that has not been readily available to them over the past few decades.

Even the French helped the Americans whenever we fought for independence from England. Did they stick around forever? No, they stuck around for as long as it took to help us get the job done.

Now, does this make me feel good? No, not really. My nephew, who has just returned from an 8 month deployment in Afghanistan will be home for about two weeks before returning to Hawaii to get ready to be deployed to Iraq. He's a US Marine. He'll be in the thick of things. He's infantry. He was a forward observer in Afghanistan and he'll do the same in Iraq. He knows his job. He loves his job. The rest of the family can't quite grasp him being so comfortable in his job but we do find comfort in the fact that he is comfortable. He has told all of us several times that if he has to die to protect either us or his buddies or a complete stranger in another land then that is what he is willing to do. That gives us, at least, some sort of comfort when he gets on that plane and we all know what lays ahead of him.

Before graduating boot camp in San Diego, he was nominated to be part of the Presidential guard. The family was ecstatic to learn this because this meant that he wouldn't be going to war. But he turned it down. Why? In his words, "The last time I checked, there were no soldiers dying on the White House lawn." What more does that say about the attitude of our soldiers? They believe in their mission. They see the forward strides and progress that are being made in Iraq. They are pissed about the lack of coverage that exists about those gains being made. They want to be there to help people that need help. Now all they hear from the homefront is "Bring our troops home" or "Nobody died when Clinton lied" or some other catchy phrase that will be the next bumper sticker from the ranks of the "progressives".

Some have posted above that there is no military solution but rather a political one? I'm actually glad to hear that. That doesn't take away one bit of what the military has accomplished or will continue to accomplish. That tells me that because the military has accomplished what they have, the resistance sees no other way out but to try and make whatever political deals they can before, they too, cross into the sights of the rifle carried by a soldier who knows what his job is.

I hope that this message has not come across as "snotty".

Don T., I hope I have provided the answers to your questions.


Hubby :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 04:23 PM

No SH, it doesn't come across at all as being snotty.

I should point out here that Susu's Hubby, also PM'd this to me, but as he has posted here also, I think my reply, in fairness, should also be public. So copy/pasted as follows:-



"A very cogent and reasoned reply, and, of course, in an ideal world one could not refute a word of it. As far as the soldiers fighting both for the USA, and for Britain, are concerned, you have indeed answered my questions, and very well.

My problem is with the USA and UK governments, who went to war on the basis of a pack of lies. The evidence for this is also irrefutable, amd my fear is that these people don't care how many men die, as long as it serves their political aims.

If those aims were in any way about liberty and democracy for Iraq, as opposed to the personal aggrandisement of the two men responsible, I would not be worried.

I foresee a situation analogous to Vietnam, where they will stay too long in a no win situation, and soldiers will die unnecessarily to provide copy for their personal memoirs.

And I fear that young men who have served a cause in which they, believed will return home to be spat upon, and called baby killers, as happened after Vietnam.

I think that the squandering of their youth, or even their lives, cannot be justified on the basis of bringing democracy to a country which, in the main hates, and distrusts all western democracies, and particularly the USA.

It is not even certain that the majority of Iraqis want democracy, but it is certain that they want to see the back of what they consider to be invaders of their territory. The most likely outcome, IMO, is that the Ayatollahs will take over, and we will have created an enemy state far worse than the one we brought down".

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 04:31 PM

I too will publicly post my response.




Don,

Thanks for the response.

Where we disagree is in the fact that the war is being fought based on a pack of lies and the parallels that are being drawn to Vietnam.
Also, the fact of whether or not the Iraqis even want us there.

But I do think that one thing that we can agree on is the fact that we are there. So we may as well do what we can to set them up in the most positive form of government that will allow them the best chance of survival once we're gone.

As far as supporting the troops, I believe that it's every American's duty to support the troops even if you don't believe in the cause for which they are fighting or even agree with the commander in chief from whom they have taken their orders from. To blame the troops or to call them "baby killers" or even to spit upon them when they return shows the utmost in disrespect to the men and women who have sacrificed greatly in order to fulfill the missions that they have been asked to undertake. To do so would be the utmost in immaturity and selfishness.

You seem to be a man with a conscience and great morality. I admire that in people, even those I don't necessarily agree with in principal. Please don't take what I have said above personally. I would never dream that somebody of your caliber would do something so vile.


Hubby


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 05:04 PM

Even Bob Novak has jumped ship from the "Hurray for Iraqi freedom" propoganda* to "its a situation in which even the most staunch conservatives now realize is a disaster".


*the very copy and paste job as seen above.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 05:16 PM

on the basis of bringing democracy to a country which, in the main hates, and distrusts all western democracies, and particularly the USA

Don(Wyziwyg)T, on what do you base your assertion that "in the main" (I take that to mean the majority of Iraqis), the country of Iraq "hates, and distrusts all western democracies...particularly the USA"?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 05:56 PM

Based on the fact that, like the Iranians, there are numerous published references to "The great Satan", and also on TV pictures of Iraqis dancing in the streets at the news of casualties among Coalition troops, in both gulf wars.

I think that is fairly good evidence that we are not high on their Christmas card list.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 06:02 PM

In response to Susu's Hubby, my reply to a PM:-


All taken in the spirit intended SH.

I agree that the only way to go is to try to finish what we have started.

With regard to the "babykillers" comment, one of the worst memories of my entire life was watching on UK television, as a group of young Americans spat at, and reviled returning soldiers with comments such as "babykillers", "murderers", and other epithets.

I will not to my dying day forget the shock and hurt on the faces of those young soldiers, many of whom had been drafted straight out of college, as they realised that their peers regarded them, not as heroes, but as villains. It is my earnest desire to be spared having to see the like again.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Wesley S
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 06:03 PM

Hubby - Best of luck to your nephew. I'm sure we all wish him well. Keep us posted on his situation if you can please.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 06:26 PM

Based on the fact that, like the Iranians, there are numerous published references to "The great Satan"

Could you please point me in the direction of some of these coming from the majority of Iraqis?


and also on TV pictures of Iraqis dancing in the streets at the news of casualties among Coalition troops, in both gulf wars

The majority of Iraqis? How many were there dancing in the streets? Did you count them?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 07:10 PM

CarolC, I really can't be arsed to churn through several years of newspapers and TV reports just to satisfy your determination to disbelieve anything that is contrary to your own view.

Pity more people weren't that suspicious of Bush's statements on WMDs.
We might not have been having this discussion.

SH, Thank you for being prepared to discuss, and for your respect for my views, even when you do not agree.


I'm out of here. BYEE.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 07:37 PM

"Where we disagree is in the fact that the war is being fought based on a pack of lies and the parallels that are being drawn to Vietnam.
Also, the fact of whether or not the Iraqis even want us there. But I do think that one thing that we can agree on is the fact that we are there"
.................

This reads a bit like a movie script in which 3 guys in a Vegas hotel room are trying to come to grips with the fact they have a dead hooker in thier room.

One guy wants to call the cops but the savvy guy argues that the one thing they can agree upon is the fact there is a dead body in the bathroom and they will have to deal with it themselves. Heck they don't feel like murderers. Besides its only a hooker.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 08:01 PM

The US certainly wasnt met with cheering crowds and flowers as Cheney predicted. And whether or not one supported the invasion, the strategy that followed was rife with stupidity. (ie. disbanding the Iraqi army and thereby releasing hundreds of thousands, embittered, idle young men on the street WITH their weapons, instead of putting them to work, cleaning up the streets, unclogging the sewers, getting the infrastructure back - which is what Garner (dismissed by the White HOuse) planned to do.
ONe wonders also about a president who accepts no advice, except from his inner circle of neocons (and we know how accurate Wolfowitz was about the number of troops needed, and that IRaq will be totally self funding ... thanks to its oil wealth)..

in a recent survey in Iraq, only 2% of Iraqis regarded the US as liberators. That pretty much says it all. Eventually they will go, and its unlikely those 14bases they are building will be sustainable.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 08:53 PM

My problem with what you are saying, Don, is the broad, sweeping, and unsupported (and rather hateful sounding) generalizations that you are making about the majority of Iraqis.

As for whether or not I was suspicious of what the Bush administration was saying pre-invasion about WMD, I was very suspicious, and I said so in my posts right here in the Mudcat during the period leading up to the war.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 08:37 AM

The strength of our 'metel' will remain long after we are gone.



http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/metalofdishonor3.jpg


Silent and invisible, the radiation we have spread in Iraq is equivilent to literally thounsands of Hiroshima detonations.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 11:42 PM

250,000 Nagasaki bombs = the amount of radiation unleashed in Iraq

Good article, Donuel.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 08:59 AM

There is a haunting song that pertains to the bio hazards people encounter in their work and radiation ravaged lands.

"We bring more home to our families than our love and a pay check..."


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 12:35 PM

Good article, Donuel. (Dianavan)

Which article? What am I missing?

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 07:41 PM

you yanks will never mind your own business
you think you are the world police


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 09:25 PM

Sorry Wolfgang,

I took a big leap. When Donuel mentioned radiation in Iraq, I googled it and read an article or two. When I rtnd., I attributed the link to Donuel. Sorry again.

If your curious, google iraq radiation.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: freda underhill
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 06:10 AM

http://www.lewrockwell.com/sheehan/sheehan10.html

Still Not Worth It by Cindy Sheehan
(who is currently camped on the road outside Bush's Crawford, TX,
ranch, where she was stopped by security from speaking to him.
Will she get to see him? Not if continues to use his helicopter
to avoid her.)

Last January, I was bumped from the Larry King Live show for an
appearance by the soon to be proven innocent Michael Jackson. I
was going to be on the program to answer the question: Did I feel
my son's murder in Iraq was "worth it" after the "free" elections
in the war torn country on January 30th. I wrote an article then
called: "Not Worth It." I never thought I would be invited back on as a guest after I pretty much burned the Larry King bridge with my article. However, to my astonishment, I was invited to be a guest on June 28th. I was asked to be on the broadcast in order to give my
impressions and rebuttal to George's speech on Iraq that he
delivered in front of the less than enthusiastic (what the White
House spin doctors call: respectful) troops at Ft. Bragg, NC.

I felt like I was in Bizarro World as I heard George speak about
9/11 five times and mention terrorism 31 times, even though these
rationales for war have been disproved repeatedly. I think George
thinks that since we believed him once about terrorism vis-*-vis
Iraq, that we must therefore be gullible enough to believe him
this time. I don't know, and I am not a professional pundit, but
my theory is he might have mentioned 9/11 to manipulate our
emotions and maybe even frighten us a little again?

The thing that struck me when I was watching that vacuous man
giving his hollow speech was the fact that he could have always
replaced the word "terrorists" with the phrase: "my moronic and
callous foreign policies" For example, when he said that
terrorists spread death and destruction on the streets of Baghdad
and kill innocent people, he could have just as easily said: "My
moronic and callous foreign policies spread death and destruction
on the streets of Baghdad and kill innocent people." When he said
that we need to stop terrorists from toppling governments in the
region, he could have just as easily said: "We need to stop my
moronic and callous foreign policies from toppling governments in
the region." People have characterized the speech-lite in many
ways, but if I had to pick a few words to describe it, I would
say: "Hypocritical, manipulative, condescending, meaningless
drivel."

I sat through an entire hour in the CNN studio in DC hearing not
one person say that the invasion was a mistake and if it was a
mistake, then our troops should be brought home immediately. Even
the "Democratic" Senators (Kerry and Bayh) on the program just
gave their recipes for "success" in Iraq, which did not include
any exit strategies. The guest host for that hour was Bob Costas
and he asked one guest, Sen. John McCain, an intriguing question:
"If you could push Button One and have an eventual wonderful
outcome in Iraq, or if you could push Button Two and never have
had it happen, which one would you pick?" Of course, Sen. McCain
chose Button One. He hasn't had a loved one killed in this
enormous tragedy of a war, nor does he have a loved one in harm's
way. It has not affected him personally one bit. What skin is it
off McCain's nose if our troops remain for a highly unlikely rosy
outcome at the cost of thousands of more lives? I would push the
button that would bring back my son, Casey, and the tens of
thousands of other victims who have been killed for nothing but
outright lies and bald-faced betrayals. I would push the button
that would give Iraq back its power, water, and infrastructure.

My absolute favorite guest of the evening was Sen. John Warner,
powerful chair of the Senate Armed Disservices Committee. Of
course, he fell in lockstep behind his F*hrer and praised the
speech and how, although we have "all" paid a terrible price for
this invasion and occupation, bringing freedom and democracy to
the Iraqi people is worth all the sacrifices that the world is
making. I sat in the Green Room with Sen. Warner's entourage. I
wondered (even out loud) what price they have paid for our
administration's misdeeds in Iraq. They all looked like happy,
well-fed, well-dressed, well-educated, and well-hydrated
Americans. They looked to me like they had plenty of electricity
to blow-dry their hair and charge their cell phones and laptops.
They looked like they had quite a nice supply of clean drinking
water and fresh food. I sincerely doubt if any of them had a
loved one ripped from their lives by a car bomb, IED, or bullet
in an ambush. I wondered who the "we" was that John Warner spoke
of. I spoke with John Warner after his interview and told him
unless he was prepared to sacrifice even a good night's sleep
over this senseless and criminal war, then he should work on
ending it, not prolonging the carnage. He told me that I was
"entitled to my opinion," but he would respectfully have to
disagree with me. That was awfully Constitutional of him!

I finally got on to speak for my 82 seconds (all the time Larry
King Live could spare for the peace message) about how this war
is a catastrophe and how we should bring the troops home and quit
forcing the Iraqi people to pay for our government's hubris and
quit forcing innocent children to suffer so we can allegedly
fight terrorism somewhere besides America. How absolutely racist
and immoral is it to take America's battles to another land and
make an entire country pay for the crimes of others? To me, this
is blatant genocide. How dare we export our brand of flag-waving
death and devastation to a people who have been through so much
already? It wasn't bad enough that our sanctions killed tens of
thousands of Iraqis before we even started an active aggression
against them. Now we have to create confusion, chaos, and
disorder there. How dare our president and Congress, and we
Americans, allow this to continue?

After my brief advocacy for peace, my position was refuted by
another Mom whose son was killed in Iraq in 2003 who said she
"totally disagrees" with me and "feels sorry" for me. Well, you
know what? I ache for her blindness and for the millions of
sheeple who have had the wool pulled over their eyes by the bunch
of hypocritical, bad shepherds who are running a disastrous herd
over the world. I have distressing news for the Soccer Safety
Moms and the NASCAR Dads who are such ardent supporters of this
administration and war: Your grandchildren and children who will
be entering Kindergarten this fall will be fighting George's
endless war if he gets his way and is allowed to continue
spreading the cancer of imperialism in the Middle-East. Donny
Rumsfeld said we could be in Iraq for another dozen years. Does
anybody think with all the billions of dollars that are being
poured into constructing super-sized bases in Iraq that the war
machine plans on relinquishing the cash-cow that is that poor,
unfortunate land anytime soon? Think about it when you tuck your
child into bed tonight.

I heard George and the Senators say that evening the sacrifices
we as Americans have had to make for Iraq are "worth it." I
really would like to know who has benefited and profited from
Iraq and who has really had to sacrifice anything. I know it was
"worth it" to Dick Cheney who was the CEO of Halliburton, (of
no-bid contract fame) which has raped billions of dollars from
our government, from the people of Iraq, and from our soldiers
who are not getting what they need to survive in a combat zone.
It is "worth it" to Black Water Security Co. who sends one-
thousand-dollar-a-day mercenaries to Iraq, funded by the War
Department. It is "worth it" to L. Paul Bremer who slunk out of
Iraq with 8.8 BILLION dollars missing from the Provisional
authority. It is also "worth it" to the other companies and
individuals who have been enriched by feeding our children to the
military industrial complex. By George, I think we have found the
people who think this war is "worth it." But, is it worth it to
George Bush who was counting on this unlawful and unprincipled
aggression in Iraq to give him "political" capital? Instead, if
poll numbers are any good indication, Americans are withdrawing
their assent for George and they are withdrawing their consent
for him to wage eternal war on humanity.

As I sat in the Green Room of CNN, I was saddened and troubled by
George's call for us Americans to fly the flag proudly on the 4th
to honor our troops. For one thing, the American flag is not a
magical token that can bring armor to the troops who are still
dying without the protection. The flag is not a faith healer that
can restore limbs and eyesight to the ones who have been maimed
forever. The flag is not a genie in a bottle that can blink her
eyes and bring our children home from this horrible blunder that
they are suffering for and being slaughtered for. But, as for me,
I will never be able to celebrate another patriotic holiday
without mourning what this nation has stolen from my family. I
will never be able to look at an American flag without thinking
of the uniform my son wore proudly that displayed that same
symbol and the evil ones who desecrated and defiled the stars and
stripes by lying us into the invasion of Iraq. No, Casey's
sacrifice was not "worth it" and George needs to do more than
wave his flag and manipulate our sense of patriotism. He needs to
march his girls to a recruitment center and send them to Iraq to
fight the terrorists that his moronic and callous foreign
policies have recruited or he needs to wake up and smell the
apple pie and bring our other sons and daughters home, now!

July 4, 2005

Cindy Sheehan [send her mail] is the mother of Spc. Casey Austin
Sheehan, KIA 04/04/04 She is co-founder of Gold Star Families for
Peace.

8/9/2005 9:00:00 AM


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: freda underhill
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 06:11 AM

CRAWFORD, Texas, Aug. 9 /U.S. Newswire/ -- More members of Gold Star Families for Peace (GSFP) and Military Families Speak Out (MFSO) are traveling to Texas to join the protest outside of President Bush's ranch in Crawford, Texas, where he is vacationing for the month of August.

Starting today, Gold Star families from Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Arkansas and other states whose loved ones have died as a result of the war in Iraq will be joining one of their members, Cindy Sheehan, at the protest. Ms. Sheehan, whose son Army Specialist Casey Sheehan was killed in Sadr City, Iraq on April 4, 2004, has been in Crawford since August 5th, demanding a meeting with the President. These families will be joined by military families with loved ones currently serving in Iraq or about to deploy or redeploy to Iraq. All of these families are coming to Crawford, Texas to share their stories about the personal costs of the war in Iraq and add their voices to the call for a meeting with President Bush.

On August 3, 2005 President Bush, speaking about the dreadful loss of life in Iraq in early August, said "We have to honor the sacrifices of the fallen by completing the mission... The families of the fallen can be assured that they died for a noble cause." Gold Star and military families coming to Crawford know that the cause was not noble; that their loved ones died, or are currently in harm's way, serving in a war based on lies.

In the first 8 days of August, 36 service members died in Iraq; countless Iraq children, women and men are dying each day. All of the families traveling to Crawford will carry the message to the vacationing President: Honor our fallen and honor our loved ones' service by ending the occupation, bringing the troops home now and taking care of them when they get here.

President Bush has consistently tried to hide, and to hide from, the cost of the war in Iraq. This August, these costs are being brought right to his doorstep.

Members of Gold Star Families for Peace and Military Families Speak Out who are traveling to Crawford will be available for interview beginning on Tuesday afternoon August 9th.

For More Information:

-- Military Families Speak Out: http://www.mfso.org

-- Gold Star Families for Peace: http://www.gsfp.org

http://www.usnewswire.com/


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 01:45 PM

There is generally only one solution to the foreign occupation of a land by force...the departure of those foreign forces.

Examples:

France in WWII
Western Russian in WWII
Burma in WWII
Vietnam from the time the French arrived till the time the Americans and their puppet Catholic-vietnamese regime left.
Afghanistan when it was invaded by the British and later the Russians, and now the Americans, etc.
Zululand when it was invaded by the British.
Ireland when it was invaded by the British.
The 13 original states of the USA when they were occupied by the British.
Canada when it was (briefly and unsuccessfully) invaded by the USA.
Norway, Denmark, Holland, Greece, etc, when they were invaded by the Germans.
Holland when it was invaded by Spain.
France when it was invaded by the English.
Most of Latin America when it was invaded by the Spanish.

Job 1: Get the foreign invaders and colonialists out.
Job 2: Work out the internal differences between divided factions among your own populace...in the case of Iraq (or Ireland) that can take a long, long time! Still, it's preferable to being a colony, in most people's opinion. Oddly enough, they would like to be in charge of their own destiny. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Amos
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 02:49 PM

I believe Bush's problem is not that they want to be in charge of their destiny, but that they want to be in charge of their oil reserves.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 04:36 PM

But stangely enough the Iraqi people were not in charge of their own destiny until they were invaded. Now they are.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Peace
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 04:42 PM

There is of course a military solution for the Iraq war, just as there was for the Vietnam war. However, the consequences don't bear thinking about.

It was Goldwater who said words to the effect: "We can win in Vietnam if we nuke the North." And that was true. Let's just hope that the bright lights in Washington don't perceive that to be a solution or a way out of the quagmire of Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 04:46 PM

Make a desolation and call it "peace"?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Peace
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 06:32 PM

"These plunderers of the world, after exhausting the land by their devastations, are rifling the ocean: stimulated by avarice, if their enemy be rich; by ambition, if poor; unsatiated by the East and by the West: the only people who behold wealth and indigence with equal avidity. To ravage, to slaughter, to usurp under false titles, they call empire; and where they make a desert, they call it peace."

This was said by Tacitus about the Roman conquest of what is today Britain.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 06:41 PM

Yes indeed.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 07:05 PM

Thanks, freda, for posting Ms. Sheehan's message. I am glad the families are going there to support her while the shrub hides out.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 07:11 PM

Just checked my email and found out MoveOn.org is going to take out an ad in the Crawford, TX newspaper, in support of Ms. Sheehan. If anyone is interested, they can send a message of support and/or signature of support by clicking here.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 07:21 PM

It remains to be seen whether there is a military solution, both in Iraq and Afghanistan.

SH - I am not all that impressed by your comparisons with the pre-invasion economy in Iraq - the pre-invasion economy had been devastated by sanctions imposed for what we now know were unjustified reasons. I am quite sickened by your preference for "pro-growth" legislation. We all know that is the recipe for uncontrolled exploitation by American capital.

Now I would have been all for assassinating Saddam Hussein (illegal though it might have been). What I don't hold with is ravaging Iraq and murdering Iraquis because we didn't like their leader.

Nor do I approve of imposing American ideas of civilisation (American-style) democracy (American-style) and economy (American-style) on Iraq. How is that freedom for the Iraquis? It merely makes them another puppet state of the USA.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Shakey
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 07:59 PM

Interview with Christopher Hitchens
Q
It seems that the left had less difficulty accepting the war in Afghanistan as they did the war in Iraq.
A
That is true, but of the hard core left it isn�t true. They also opposed the removal of the Taliban. When it came to using force, the least they did was predict a quagmire. By the way, there weren't alone. The New York Times did so too. They said at minimum we would witness another Vietnam, which is a pretty serious charge to make as someone who believes that then and now the Vietnam war was a war of aggression and atrocity and racism. When someone says something is another Vietnam, they better be serious because that�s a serious charge.

But lets look at the case of Iraq and the left. If you asked someone who has the principles of a 1968 leftist the following question: what is your attitude to a regime that has committed genocide, invaded its neighbors, militarized its society into a police state, that has privatized its economy so it is owned by one family, that has defied the non proliferation treaty in many ways, that sought weapons to commit genocide again and cheated on inspections, that has abolished the existence of a neighboring arab muslim state? What is your view of this as anyone who is a 1968 leftist? For me, I would be appalled if anyone knew me even slightly would not guess my attitude. Iraq should have been taken care of a long time ago. Instead, when I made my view public, I was berated by the left and my view was seen as an insane eccentricity.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 08:25 PM

I find Mr. Hitchens stance on those two wars (Vietnam and Iraq) to be quite bizarrely inconsistent.

He says of the Vietnam war...

Vietnam war was a war of aggression and atrocity and racism. When someone says something is another Vietnam, they better be serious because that's a serious charge.

And yet, he doesn't seem suggest that the US should have been invaded, it's government overthrown, and tens of thousands of its citizens slaughtered as a consequence of waging this war of "aggression and atrocity and racism".

On the other hand, he seems to try to justify doing these very things to Iraq for far lesser crimes than those of which he accuses the US of being guilty in the Vietnam war.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 12:00 AM

See this Wed Aug 10th, 2005 Daily Kos 'diary' by Sharon Jumper,
a veteran and the mom of a soldier.

Military Experts Say It's Time To Cut Our Losses in Iraq

Following are some excepts from that diary:

"General Odom says bluntly, "We have failed," and "the issue is how high a price we're going to pay - less, by getting out sooner, or more, by getting out later."...

"Another vietnam veteran, former CENTCOM Commander and Bush emissary to the Middle East, General Tony Zinni has many of the same concerns and sees paralells with Vietnam:

"Obviously there are differences" between Vietnam and Iraq, he says. "Every situation is unique." But in his bones, he feels the same chill. "It feels the same. I hear the same things -- about [administration charges about] not telling the good news, about cooking up a rationale for getting into the war." He sees both conflicts as beginning with deception by the U.S. government, drawing a parallel between how the Johnson administration handled the beginning of the Vietnam War and how the Bush administration touted the threat presented by Iraqi weapons of mass destruction. "I think the American people were conned into this," he says. Referring to the 1964 Gulf of Tonkin incident, in which the Johnson administration claimed that U.S. Navy ships had been subjected to an unprovoked attack by North Vietnam, he says, "The Gulf of Tonkin and the case for WMD and terrorism is synonymous in my mind."

Likewise, he says, the goal of transforming the Middle East by imposing democracy by force reminds him of the "domino theory" in the 1960s that the United States had to win in Vietnam to prevent the rest of Southeast Asia from falling into communist hands...

..."My contemporaries, our feelings and sensitivities were forged on the battlefields of Vietnam, where we heard the garbage and the lies, and we saw the sacrifice," he said at a talk to hundreds of Marine and Navy officers and others at a Crystal City hotel ballroom in September. "I ask you, is it happening again?" The speech, part of a forum sponsored by the U.S. Naval Institute and the Marine Corps Association, received prolonged applause, with many officers standing."

-snip-

This diary is followed by comments from other bloggers, some of whom are also veterans of the USA military.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Shakey
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 02:45 AM

I think you've misread it Carol. Actually, although he's a well known author, the paragraph, on Iraq, is a little contrived, grammatically.

Shakey


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: freda underhill
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 02:51 AM

The difference with Afghanistan is that the people wanted the UN to come, and had been wanting that for a long time. When I say the people, i don't mean the Taliban controlled governmet and the Pashtun elite, I mean the women, and the Hazaras and Tajiks who were being persecuted and massacred.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 12:29 PM

No, Shakey, I think I hit the figurative nail right on the head.

BTW, I don't consider myself a "leftist", but my own position during the lead-up to the invasion of both Afghanistan as well as Iraq was that there should be absolutely no hint or possibility of there being any hidden or secondary agendas. In the absence of secondary and/or hidden agendas, I do believe that there are probably times when force might be needed in order to save lives.

We know now that humanitarian concerns were not the reason for either invasion (Afghanistan or Iraq), nor were they given as the "legal" justification for those invasions. The "secondary" agendas were really the primary agendas, and these agendas are what shaped the approach taken by the invading and occupying forces. Had humanitarian concerns been the only agenda, or even the primary one, things would have turned out very, very differently, and a vast amount of unnessary suffering on the part of Afghans and Iraqis could have been avoided.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 02:47 PM

War is murder. Mass murder. Pre-planned mass murder. It is also trespassing and theft and property destruction. Individuals do it, they get arrested and tried. Governments do it, and they claim to be the benefactors of humanity.

They are not.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 05:32 PM

"SH - I am not all that impressed by your comparisons with the pre-invasion economy in Iraq - the pre-invasion economy had been devastated by sanctions imposed for what we now know were unjustified reasons."

Richard Bridge,

May I remind you that the sanctions were placed on Iraq after their 1991 invasion of a sovereign neighbor. They were put into place by the UN. The sanctions were upheld by forces already in the area, primarily US and UK forces, and were designed to have Saddam comply with the orders of the UN. Which he never did. Not only that, but a program was established to help his people with the "Oil for Food Program". That turned out to be a joke. Almost everybody but us, the UK and Santa Claus had their hand in the cookie jar on that fiasco, therefore, making it that much harder for the final UN resolution to be agreed upon. Once it was agree upon, we took action and now are taking heat for ENFORCING the UN resolutions. You people sure are hard to please.

"I am quite sickened by your preference for "pro-growth" legislation."

As opposed to "pro-depression legislation"? Give me a break. Are you another on of those who believe that just because somebody else has something that you don't that they don't deserve to have anything? I really hope not. This place is already running over with people like that. Please tell me, Richard, that you are someone that actually cares about what happens to the Iraqi people. Don't give the same old crap about hundreds of thousands of Iraqi CIVILIANS getting killed. That notion has already been debunked by one of your liberal sources. Please tell me, Richard, that you actually do understand that civilians die when there's a war in their country. As unfortunate as that statement is, it's fact. How about all of the unlucky civilians that were killed and those that are still missing whenever Saddam invaded Kuwait? How about all of the civilians that were killed and those that are still missing whenever Saddam fought the Iranians? How about all of the civilians that were killed and those that are still missing when Saddam was slaughtering his OWN CITIZENS? Do you not care about those people? Or is your hatred for both the American administration and current policy blinding you to the good that is actually coming from him being gone?


Hubby


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 05:36 PM

As a by the way . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 05:44 PM

Peace,

Is your tank over there too?

Hubby ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 05:55 PM

No. It's in for repairs. However, when I compare our national debts, it gives me some comfort to know that our military is not bleeding the nation's wealth. Matter of priorities I think. National health program before giant military-industrial complex. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Amos
Date: 12 Aug 05 - 05:08 PM

The following are the latest figures for military deaths in Iraq since the U.S.-led invasion in March 2003, in line with the most recent information from the Pentagon:

U.S.-LED COALITION FORCES:

United States 1,847

Britain 92

Other nations 94

IRAQIS:

MILITARY Between 4,895 and 6,370#

CIVILIANS Between 23,456 and 26,559*

# = Think-tank estimates for military under Saddam killed during the 2003 war. No reliable official figures have been issued since security forces were set up in late 2003.

* = From www.iraqbodycount.net, run by academics and peace activists, based on reports from at least two media sources.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 09:23 AM

The Pentagon has redefined death so that American troops killed in Iraq appears to be only half the actual count.
Yesterday, despite the huge increase in the rate of US troops killed while on patrol, The pentagon claimed that US deaths have "proportionally" gone down. The math they are now using involves dividing by a much larger number of vehicle bombs blowing up proportionally fewer US troops.

The military strategy to date is to drive around in plain sight until you get shot at or blown up so you can determine where the enemy is.


I always thought decoys were supposed to be inanimate.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: freda underhill
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 10:21 AM

Sarah Boseley, health editor; Friday October 29, 2004; The Guardian

About 100,000 Iraqi civilians - half of them women and children - have died in Iraq since the invasion, mostly as a result of airstrikes by coalition forces, according to the first reliable study of the death toll from Iraqi and US public health experts. The study, which was carried out in 33 randomly-chosen neighbourhoods of Iraq representative of the entire population, shows that violence is now the leading cause of death in Iraq. Before the invasion, most people died of heart attacks, stroke and chronic illness. The risk of a violent death is now 58 times higher than it was before the invasion.

Last night the Lancet medical journal fast-tracked the survey to publication on its website after rapid, but extensive peer review and editing because, said Lancet editor Richard Horton, "of its importance to the evolving security situation in Iraq". But the findings raised important questions also for the governments of the United Sates and Britain who, said Dr Horton in a commentary, "must have considered the likely effects of their actions for civilians".

The research was led by Les Roberts of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health in Baltimore. Five of the six Iraqi interviewers who went to the 988 households in the survey were doctors and all those involved in the research on the ground, says the paper, risked their lives to collect the data. Householders were asked about births and deaths in the 14.6 months before the March 2003 invasion, and births and deaths in the 17.8 months afterwards.

Source: The Lancet 2004; 364:1857-1864

DOI:10.1016/S0140-6736(04)17441-2

Mortality before and after the 2003 invasion of Iraq: cluster sample survey

Les Roberts a ,   Riyadh Lafta b,   Richard Garfield c,   Jamal Khudhairi b   and   Gilbert Burnham


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 12:13 PM

Its nice to have ones opinions vindicated, and Amos ,Boberts and others deserve their moment in the sun after the abuse they have taken from the powers of darkness here on Mudcat.

I remember before the war, the anti's were much in the minority,especially in the USA, and were subjected to daily taunts from the right of being traitors or fools.
As events have unfolded, the numbers of pro war people here have diminished, leaving a small hard core of fanatics, some of whom were not in this forum in the early days.

This vindication of our insight should not cause us to forget those who will have no victory or even see one ray of light.....The children in hospital, victims of air strikes, some with no sight some with no limbs, all with no hope for any quality of life in the future.
All in that condition because of the greed and ego-mania of our leaders..AND...our stupidity and indifference.

Carol and Freda have mentioned the article in the esteemed British medical journal "the Lancet", in which Hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties are cited.
With troop withdrawals by the US and UK now a matter of urgency as the insurgency builds, I fear many thousands more will perish in the bloody mess we have created.

I hope the few pro war people left here, and the hawkish media both in America and Britain, will ponder on the loss of life on all sides and have the guts to apologise for their stance...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 12:41 PM

Hubby--


1) It seems you're a stalwart believer of the "big lie" approach. Sorry, no matter how many times you say it, the US did not in fact have the authority to "enforce" UN resolutions. You are a true broken record.

2) "Oil for food program"--among the people enthusiastically reaping the benefits of evading sanctions was our own dear Mr. Chaney, in his role as head of Halliburton.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Metchosin
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 01:58 PM

I've stayed out of much of the discussion regarding the invasion of Iraq since I pretty much blew my load on the following thread. Took me a long time to find it so I will repost it again if only to make it easier for myself in case I want to find it again:


Subject: RE: BS: Should Saddam comply with Resolutions?
From: Metchosin - PM
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 01:22 PM

Troll, I don't doubt that you are a nationalist and have pride in you nation's accomplishments. There are many democratic nations in the world whose citizens are justifiably proud of their accomplishments.

However, when it comes to the US's self appointment as sole judge, jury and police of the entire world, dismissing the worldview of other nations in the process and without international checks and balances, in order to expand and protect American interests, you are a dangerous force indeed. In fact, IMO, you undermine the very fundamental principals of democracy itself. Adolf Hitler called this the New World Order and this was one of the reasons for the formation of the United Nations in the first place. How far the US has drifted from its original ideals.

The UN is indeed cumbersome and fraught with problems, as are most democratic institutions, but it was an American dream at one time too.

If the UN has strayed from the hope and promise of its inception, part of the blame lies squarely at the feet of the US and its willingness to collect its marbles and go home, when UN decisions do not favour American Interests.

America's ambassador to the United Nations, Madeleine Albright, knew exactly what was going on in Rwanda but blocked the Security Council from deploying an effective UN force because it had lost 18 U.S. soldiers in Somalia five months earlier and didn't want to become embroiled in Africa again. And as has been pointed out, on numerous occasions, the Iraqi regime is not the only one in breach of UN resolutions.

No Troll, it never occurred to me that pointing out that democracy is a long drawn out process, would infer somehow that people who do not live in a democracy are somehow inferior. As I reiterated before, democracy is not a suitcase nor a MacDonalds' franchise, for that matter.

You can't expect to come rolling into a country in a tank, after bombing that country's infrastructure and people to hell, then hand the inhabitants a pencil to mark a ballot and expect them to believe you have offered them a better way. Unlike Japan, which most hold as an example of successful inception of Democracy at the point of a gun, Iraq and Afghanistan are neither religiously nor ethnically, highly organized, homogeneous societies.

Perhaps you should revisit The Ugly American in which Brando plays a smug reporter turned arrogant ambassador. At the end of the film, after Brando's cocksure attitude causes one disaster after another, Stewart Stern, the screenwriter, through Brando states "I can't preach the American heritage and expect to be believed if I act out of impatience or sacrifice my principles to expediency. I've learned that the only time we're hated is when we stop trying to be what we started out to be, 200 years ago. And I'm not blaming my country. I'm blaming the indifference that some of us show to its promises."


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Peace
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 02:35 PM

"About 100,000 Iraqi civilians - half of them women and children - have died in Iraq since the invasion"

That is typical in bombing and war. The deaths of civilians generally works out to be 50/50 female/male.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Aug 05 - 12:10 PM

The Lancet article is methodologically very weak and the way it is written gives a bit the impression that the authors are slightly biased.

However, the estimate given (about 100000 excess deaths) is so far the only estimate I know of except those counting deaths from news reports. It therefore has to be taken serious, as a rough estimate.

But it's interesting to read how in Ake's attempt at rephrasing the article's finding one tiny additional letter appears:
Hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 12:16 AM

Nice rant, Metchosin!


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: freda underhill
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 06:49 AM

meanwhile, back at the ranch..

Bush defends cost of Iraq war; Sunday, August 21, 2005 ; Japan Today

CRAWFORD — U.S. President George W Bush, besieged at his ranch by relatives of U.S. soldiers killed in Iraq, on Saturday launched a five-day campaign to defend the war to an increasingly sceptical U.S. public. In his weekly radio address from his Prairie Chapel property, Bush said that the war would help avert another attack like the Sept 11 terrorist strikes and that the best way to honor fallen troops was to defeat global terrorism. "We must finish the task that our troops have given their lives for and honor their sacrifice by completing their mission," said Bush, whose approval ratings have slipped to some of the lowest levels of his presidency.

More than 1,800 US soldiers have been killed in Iraq and thousands more wounded in a conflict with a price tag in the tens of billions of dollars. A recent poll found that a majority of Americans — 57% — believe that the war has made the United States more vulnerable to terrorist attacks, despite Bush's frequent arguments that the conflict has made them safer....

The president said he would commemorate the 60th anniversary of the end of fighting in the Pacific theater of World War II — a conflict he frequently compares to the war on terrorism. "Like previous wars we have waged to protect our freedom, the war on terror requires great sacrifice from Americans," especially those serving in the armed forces, said Bush.

http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=8&id=346893


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: freda underhill
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 07:06 AM

As the President ploughs on with the war, citing September 11 when no Iraqis were connected with September 11, it's timely to remember how Colin Powell, doing his duty, was given fake evidence of WMD to present to the UN..

Former aide: Powell WMD speech 'lowest point in my life'Friday, August 19, 2005; CNN.com

Former Secretary of State Colin Powell presents the case that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction in 2003.

A former top aide to Colin Powell says his involvement in the former secretary of state's presentation to the United Nations on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction was "the lowest point" in his life. "I wish I had not been involved in it," says Col. Lawrence Wilkerson, a longtime Powell adviser who served as his chief of staff from 2002 through 2005. "I look back on it, and I still say it was the lowest point in my life."

Wilkerson is one of several insiders interviewed for the CNN Presents documentary "Dead Wrong -- Inside an Intelligence Meltdown." The program, which airs Sunday at 8 p.m. and 11 p.m. ET, pieces together the events leading up to the mistaken WMD intelligence that was presented to the public. A presidential commission that investigated the pre-war WMD intelligence found much of it to be "dead wrong."

Powell's speech, delivered on February 5, 2003, made the case for the war by presenting U.S. intelligence that purported to prove that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. Wilkerson says the information in Powell's presentation initially came from a document he described as "sort of a Chinese menu" that was provided by the White House. "(Powell) came through the door ... and he had in his hands a sheaf of papers, and he said, 'This is what I've got to present at the United Nations according to the White House, and you need to look at it,'" Wilkerson says in the program. "It was anything but an intelligence document. It was, as some people characterized it later, sort of a Chinese menu from which you could pick and choose."

Wilkerson and Powell spent four days and nights in a CIA conference room with then-Director George Tenet and other top officials trying to ensure the accuracy of the presentation, Wilkerson says. "There was no way the Secretary of State was going to read off a script about serious matters of intelligence that could lead to war when the script was basically un-sourced," Wilkerson says. In one dramatic accusation in his speech, Powell showed slides alleging that Saddam had bioweapons labs mounted on trucks that would be almost impossible to find.

"In fact, Secretary Powell was not told that one of the sources he was given as a source of this information had indeed been flagged by the Defense Intelligence Agency as a liar, a fabricator," says David Kay, who served as the CIA's chief weapons inspector in Iraq after the fall of Saddam. That source, an Iraqi defector who had never been debriefed by the CIA, was known within the intelligence community as Curveball."
After searching Iraq for several months across the summer of 2003, Kay began e-mailing Tenet to tell him the WMD evidence was falling apart. At one point, Wilkerson says, Tenet called Powell to tell him the claims about mobile bioweapons labs were apparently not true.

"George actually did call the Secretary, and said, 'I'm really sorry to have to tell you. We don't believe there were any mobile labs for making biological weapons,'" Wilkerson says in the documentary. "This was the third or fourth telephone call. And I think it's fair to say the Secretary and Mr. Tenet, at that point, ceased being close. I mean, you can be sincere and you can be honest and you can believe what you're telling the Secretary. But three or four times on substantive issues like that? It's difficult to maintain any warm feelings."


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 08:35 AM

Was it Don(Wysiwyg)T who recalled young Americans reviling their returning troops, and was he talking about Vietnam? I ask because he said the soldiers had been drafted, and my understanding has been that only volunteers are sent to Iraq.

Susu's hubby takes much satisfaction from the huge list of accomplishments he cites. But the scorn he heaps on a less well educated catter rings a bit hollow if one pauses to think for oneself about those accomplishments, which he evidently did not do. Even when someone (Richard Bridge?) undermined the economic comparisons by reminding him that pre-war Iraq had been blighted by sanctions he simply implied (against overwhelming evidence to the contrary) that sanctions had been ineffective.

Here are the "accomplishments" about which Hubby might at least have raised and eyebrow:

The first battalion of the new Iraqi Army has
graduated and is on active duty.


A pitifully small step for a country that had (and needs) a substantial army to deter the ambitions and military capabilities of Turkey (second biggest army in NATO), Iran and Syria - which is why America will be stuck in the middle for years to come.

... over 60,000 Iraqis now provide security to their
fellow citizens.


Do these fellow citizens appreciate just how safe they are these days? (They are several times more likely to die violently now than before the invasion, but that's a detail.) Again a pitifully small step anyway, set against the US blunder of dismantling the existing structures.

... nearly all of Iraq's 400 courts are functioning.

Meaningless. Where are the stats for prosecutions, conviction rates and seriousness of charges?

... on Monday, October 6 power generation hit 4,518
megawatts - exceeding the prewar average.


In what sense was a war necessary for this accomplishment?


... all 22 universities and 43 technical institutes
and colleges are open, as are nearly all primary and
secondary schools.... All 240 hospitals and more than 1200 clinics are
open.


As they had been pre-war.

... we have restored over three-quarters of prewar
telephone services and over two-thirds of the potable
water production.... there are 4,900 full-service telephone
connections. We expect 50,000 by year-end.


Thank god for the invasion then.

... the wheels of commerce are turning. From bicycles
to satellite dishes to cars and trucks, businesses are
coming to life in all major cities and towns.


No figures at all? What's Iraq's imports-exports ratio?

... 95 percent of all prewar bank customers have
service and first-time customers are opening accounts
daily.


So some people have lost service. That's an accomplishment?

... Shia religious festivals that were all but banned,
aren't.


A neat example of the empty rhetoric to which Hubby is seemingly blind. (Re-read that sentence again slowly, Hubby.)

... for the first time in 35 years, in Karbala
thousands of Shiites celebrate the pilgrimage of the
12th Imam.


They'll be rejoicing in Tehran. Soon we'll see why Saddam kept the lid on that can of worms.

... the Coalition has completed over 13,000
reconstruction projects, large and small, as part of a
strategic plan for the reconstruction of Iraq.
You'll find that most of those "projects" are tiny, Hubby, and collectively they add up to a small percentage of what was planned/promised.

Hubby does quote real and significant accomplishments concerned with deomocratic processes, social justice and the ending of police terror as an instrument of law enforcement. However he does not mention - and may not have known - that Baghdad morgue received about 1100 corpses in July of this year, many mutilated, and about 20 per cent of which will never be identified. The pre-war body count for the morgue was less than 200 a month. (The Independent (London), 17 August.) This report, using information that was supposed to have been kept out of the public domain, supports Wolfgang's analysis that casualties based on media reports are likely to be unreliable and that the casualties quoted in the "Lancet report" though almost certainly overblown, are likely to be the more reliable.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 09:56 PM

There will be no military solution in Iraq because peace is not profitable.

According to John Pilger in his book, "The New Rulers of the World", the ultimate goal is American conquest of 40-50 countries that was planned during World War II.

Rumsfeld has asked us to, "think the unthinkable" and Cheney says that Iraq and Afghanistan are only the beginning of a war that "may not end in our lifetime."

Human life is of no value to the American or British governments. The only thing that matters is the domination of the oil fields and the profits for the military/industrial complex which they represent.

There will be no solution because there is no will to solve a problem that has, in fact, been created by the U.S. and Britain.

Susu's hubby should read Pilger's book.

The U.S. and Britain have, in fact, accomplished exactly what they set out to do and it has nothing to do with the health and well-being of the people of the Middle East or the soldiers which they so willingly sacrifice.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Peace
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 12:03 AM

The Iraq fiasco is only a part of eventual world conquest. This has been in the works for decades. Nothing new, IMO. SSDD.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 01:55 PM

Ah, yes, well here is the typical totalitarian megalomaniac military solution to intractable messes like the War in Iraq:

1. Invade another country! Yes, this always works great for awhile. Why? It shifts the public's fickle attention to a new "evil enemy", a new outside threat, and a new glorious campaign that will provide easily discernable military victories! Those victories will make for very exciting media coverage, and will give everyone back home the impression that they are "winning" the war. (Hip! Hip! Hooray! and Hail to the Chief!).

2. It will be necessary to prepare the mind of the public by building paranoia and hatred of the new target country first. The new target country will, of course, be a place that is strategically valuable in some way....

3. It will be handy if the new country has a leader who can be easily recognized and demonized, so we can "save the World" from his evil plans! (scary, scary!) Hopefully, he will have facial hair, swarthy skin, and a bad reputation. If not, well, we'll think of something.

4. This method works great in the initial stages, but it tends to bog down after awhile, once the campaign has been won on the ground. Then it may, and probably will, become another Iraq/Afghanistan unresolvable conflict, in which case...

5. Return smartly to step (1) above and invade yet another country! Ha! Ha! Works like a charm.

(This is generally termed the "Hitler method to success and popularity" or "5 easy steps to World conquest and/or eternal damnation...just cross your fingers and hope for the best!)

Think Iran. Failing that, maybe North Korea. On an outside bet...well...how about Saudi Arabia or Syria? Or even Lybia? Venezuela? Cuba? Indonesia? Hell, this could become another Hundred Years War, given a little creative stirring of the pot.

And don't you feel a whole lot safer now? ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 03:07 PM

I,ve never been a conspiracy theorist, but I agree wholeheartedly with GUEST O9:56 pm.

I have struggled to find any sense in the actions of the USA in Iraq and Afghanistan. As the cited excuses fall one by one, and become more bizarre by the day, I'm left with the impression that the real reason is world domination by the powerful nations.

It is unacceptable to those who really control our countries , that the supply of energy lies in the hands of "unstable" governments in the Middle East.

Our Capitalist leaders are looking down an abyss, as our energy needs continue to rise, and we now find ourselves in competition with the new developing countries such as China and India.

I've always maintained that unlike Communism, the capitalists will never see their system die without a blood sacrifice and I feel we are just at the beginning of one of the darkest periods of our bloody history.

Soon the pretense of democracy will be thrown aside, and the powerful nations ...America, China and a few second division sides will unite to subjugate all who dont fit in with their plans.

The disasters we see in Iraq and Afghanistan will be as nothing when "Big Brother" really comes to call.

The alternative for the people of the West,is a marked fall in prosperity, and a slow realisation that our present lifestyle is un-sustainable. So rather than making a grab for the chance of freedom for the first time in history, I suppose we'll just fall in behind our leaders as we did in Germany all those years ago....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 04:35 PM

I seem to have missed that long copy 'n paste by Hubby back on June 21, but as I was reading it, I just knew it was likely a 'circulating item' on conservative pages...

Turns out it actually made Snopes.com, who almost figured out where it came from..(probably a briefing by L.Paul Bremer with follow ups by Casper Weinberger)...in any case, they note a response by an Iraqi citizen with a bit of a different take on those statistics/claims

You gotta do better than just quoting those who agree with you, Hubby...and you MUST give YOUR sources, rather than making it look like you compiled those figures!

sheesh!


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 06:21 PM

"However he does not mention - and may not have known - that Baghdad morgue received about 1100 corpses in July of this year, many mutilated, and about 20 per cent of which will never be identified. The pre-war body count for the morgue was less than 200 a month."

Gee. What a quote. I'm sure Saddam thought to himself...."maybe I should have sent all of the people that I've had executed to the morgue instead of burying them in mass graves in the middle of the desert so that the wackos on Mudcat can have accurate numbers to support their weak arguments." Yep...I'm sure he thought that.


By the rhetoric that is thrown around in here, I would almost believe that the majority of you are Saddam Hussein sympathizers. It sure sounds like it. It's as if you're saying "Let's make Saddam look good by continuously trying to trash those who would remove him from power."

What mainstream America and a majority of Iraqis are thinking is "It's really a sad day whenever a country as great as America has so many people that really don't care that we are really trying to make a difference and help those less fortunate in the world. Those who shout and disagree the loudest are the same ones who always cry for equality and helping the less fortunate."

You can really only help people by one of three ways and sometimes it takes all.

You can fight for them by using money.
You can fight for them by using guns and bombs.
You can fight for them by debating the issues.

So what I have gathered from people in here is this;

1. It's ok to help people who need help as long as guns and bombs aren't involved.

2. We can only help these people by either throwing money at the problem or waiting and hoping that their leaders will have a generous change of heart.

Please tell me that's how you really feel. Because I would hate to think that you really didn't want to help the Iraqis because you really don't like George W. Bush.

I guess that we should have given Saddam all of the money that he wanted and then debated him in front of the UN whenever he didn't do what we asked. I'm sure he would have crumbled at the sight of Kofi Annan hammering his gold plated gavel on the desk saying "please no Kofi, I'll do whatever you want...just please don't put another ding in the gold plating of your lovely gavel! Afterall, the oil for food proceeds can only go so far and you and your son can't live comfortably on the millions I've already given to you."

But of course...I guess that would be OK since Bush is in the White House.



Hubby


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 06:31 PM

Susu's Hobby..Tell the women of Iraq how lucky they are when the fundamentalists, whom we have assisted to power, turn the clocks back a hundred years...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Amos
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 06:35 PM

Hubby:

Go, yourself, to war, and watch your friends crumple and die in the sand. Go call on the bereaved mothers and explain it to them.

Stand up to some blasts, bullets; watch some children bleed to death in your arms, due to a slight error in azimuth made by an exhausted artilleryman. Haul some of your buddies out of harm's way with their legs left behind and their blood covering your bootlaces. Take point on explaining collateral damage to the mothers of children accidentally wiped out by a misaimed bomb.

Then come back here and yap about the glory and nobility of war in a High Cause.

Let me add, too, that your so-called High Cause smells as rotten as a mackerel in moonlight; it was never articulated as the purpose of this war until well after the war was begun, and your hollow-headed leaders ran out of steam on their other excuses. This war was not begun to free oppressed people. It is the right words, but not to this song. It is a pretense, added to a string of pretenses, rationalizing violence with after-thoughts cloaked in hollow and hypocritical rhetoric. . Specious, unthoughtful, inhuman and bestial.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Peace
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 06:44 PM

Anyone who thinks carnage is good has never had to deal with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 06:48 PM

It's not about Saddam, hubby. It was never about Saddam. He doesn't matter. It's about oil, and building an empire. Saddam was simply the handy "face" to fit part # 3 in my recipe below, called:

"the Hitler method to success and popularity" or "5 easy steps to World conquest and/or eternal damnation...just cross your fingers and hope for the best!"

Now please disabuse yourself of the very silly notion that we are "Saddam Hussein sympathizers". Why would we be? What would we possibly find to admire about Saddam? He's just a former errand boy (thug) for Washington who went astray. He used to kill Iranians for them in the 80's...remember? What has Saddam even got to DO with our criticism of Bush's unprovoked aggression against a virtually helpless country that was incapable of harming America anyway? What has he got to do with our opposition to a war that can't be won and is being fought against the wrong people in the wrong place by the wrong method, and is defended only by lies and evasions?

Saddam is superflous. He's about as important at this moment as Manuel Noriega or Idi Amin...meaning: not at all. He is defunct. He has no power. He is yesterday's news. "If his feet weren't nailed to the perch, he'd be pushing up daisies!" He is an ex-dictator!!!! (Monty Python scene. remember it?)


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Frankham
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 07:10 PM

Hi Hubby,

I think you have exaggerated information and I challenge your source.



"... the first battalion of the new Iraqi Army has
graduated and is on active duty."

They are useless and rely on the support of American troops.

"... over 60,000 Iraqis now provide security to their
fellow citizens."

This is Rumsfeld's figure and it has been shown to be grossly exaggerated. There is absolutely no way to substantiate this.

... nearly all of Iraq's 400 courts are functioning.

They probably were before. It depends upon what one means by functioning.

... the Iraqi judiciary is fully independent.

Independent of what? Sharia? This is hardly independence.

... on Monday, October 6 power generation hit 4,518
megawatts - exceeding the prewar average.

Prove it. Show me the source for this bit of misinformation.

... all 22 universities and 43 technical institutes
and colleges are open, as are nearly all primary and
secondary schools.

Again, this sounds like misinformation as well. If true, how really functional are they?

... by October 1, Coalition forces had rehab-ed over
1,500 schools - 500 more than scheduled.

I don't believe this either. Show me the source.

... teachers earn from 12 to 25 times their former
salaries.

What? Which teachers? American teachers? Where, and how?

... all 240 hospitals and more than 1200 clinics are
open.

Many have been destroyed by bombs. This seems also like an inflated State Department figure.

... doctors salaries are at least eight times what
they were under Saddam.

I don't believe that either unless you are talking about a few
American physicians.

... pharmaceutical distribution has gone from
essentially nothing to 700 tons in May to a current
total of 12,000 tons.

What pharmaceuticals? How can anyone realistically know this information? Where does it come from?

... the Coalition has helped administer over 22
million vaccination doses to Iraq's children.

... a Coalition program has cleared over 14,000
kilometers of Iraq's 27,000 kilometers of weed-choked
canals which now irrigate tens of thousands of farms.
This project has created jobs for more than 100,000
Iraqi men and women.

Even if it were true, what kind of work are we talking about here?
Where people actually get paid for their labor? This seems again made up.

... we have restored over three-quarters of prewar
telephone services and over two-thirds of the potable
water production.

That's why Iraqi children are dying of dysentery and other diseases due to the contamination of the water supply.

... there are 4,900 full-service telephone
connections. We expect 50,000 by year-end.

These connections might be available to Americans who are there such as service personnel. But for the Iraqi people?
Give me a break!

... the wheels of commerce are turning. From bicycles
to satellite dishes to cars and trucks, businesses are
coming to life in all major cities and towns.

Baloney! This is errant propaganda.

... 95 percent of all prewar bank customers have
service and first-time customers are opening accounts
daily.

Even if they were, what would the accounts be worth in terms
of expendable income?

... Iraqi banks are making loans to finance
businesses.

... the central bank is fully independent.

Independent of what? Bombs?

... Iraq has one of the worlds most growth-oriented
investment and banking laws.

Iraq has one of the worlds most regressive business practices due to the US corporate takeover of that country.

... Iraq has a single, unified currency for the first
time in 15 years.

And the worth of that currency?

... satellite TV dishes are legal.

They always have been. What goes out under those broadcasts
is a different story.

... foreign journalists aren't on 10-day visas paying
mandatory and extortionate fees to the Ministry of
Information for minders and other government spies.

No they are being shot, kidnapped and beheaded.

... there is no Ministry of Information.

There is no real information coming out of that country.

... there are more than 170 newspapers.

There probably always were. It's what they print that is important.

... you can buy satellite dishes on what seems like
every street corner.

Probably always could.

... foreign journalists (and everyone else) are free
to come and go.

And to get killed.

... a nation that had not one single element -
legislative, judicial or executive - of a
representative government, now does.

Not really. It's a country that will be ruled by Sharia law if
a civil war doesn't break out between Kurds, Shi'ites and Sunnis.

... in Baghdad alone residents have selected 88
advisory councils. Baghdad's first democratic transfer
of power in 35 years happened when the city council
elected its new chairman.

Nothing really democratic is going on there. Who was on the city council and who controlled the elections?

... today in Iraq chambers of commerce, business,
school and professional organizations are electing
their leaders all over the country.

Not many of them if any at all.

... 25 ministers, selected by the most representative
governing body in Iraq's history, run the day-to-day
business of government.

Who says they are the most representative? Representative of whom? Oil interests? US corporations?

... the Iraqi government regularly participates in
international events. Since July the Iraqi government
has been represented in over two dozen international
meetings, including those of the UN General Assembly,
the Arab League, the World Bank and IMF and, today,
the Islamic Conference Summit. The Ministry of Foreign
Affairs announced that it is reopening over 30
Iraqi embassies around the world.

The Iraqi government was always represented in the UN.
In that, it particpated in international events, not in any
democratic way. The same holds true today. Only the Iraqi leaders that have been appointed to serve by US Paul Bremmer's and the like are involved with corporate business practices. As to the opening of Iraqi embassies, I'll believe that when I see it.

... Shia religious festivals that were all but banned,
aren't.

Only the participation of equality for women is excepted.

... for the first time in 35 years, in Karbala
thousands of Shiites celebrate the pilgrimage of the
12th Imam.

So? The Shi'ites are now in control of an Islamic nation.

... the Coalition has completed over 13,000
reconstruction projects, large and small, as part of a
strategic plan for the reconstruction of Iraq.

What are they? Name one that has any real validity. A billion has been squandered by US corporations that will not allow
the Iraqi engineers to take part in these reconstruction projects.

... Uday and Qusay are dead - and no longer feeding
innocent Iraqis to the zoo lions, raping the young
daughters of local leaders to force cooperation,
torturing Iraq's soccer players for losing games, or
murdering critics.

This is all just propaganda based on no factual information.
Saddam's sons are being replaced by a more insidious
faction of Al Quaeda or insurgent militants who will make Saddam look like a choirboy.

... children aren't imprisoned or murdered when their
parents disagree with the government.

They're murdered all the time. There is not much of a government to agree or disagree with.

... political opponents aren't imprisoned, tortured,
executed, maimed, or are forced to watch their
families die for disagreeing with Saddam.

There was Abu Graibh. If the government is so great,
why isn't it being readilly accepted by all Iraqis? As for the "baby incubation" stories, this is not verifiable material.

... millions of longsuffering Iraqis no longer live in
perpetual terror.

Baloney! I'm sorry, this is beyond reason.

... Saudis will hold municipal elections.

They will continue to be undemocratic as they always have been and reduce the role of women to second class citizens. the Wahabbi's will see to that.

... Qatar is reforming education to give more choices
to parents.

What does this mean? Private schools? Come on now.

... Jordan is accelerating market economic reforms.

Accelerating economic downturns.

... the Nobel Peace Prize was awarded for the first
time to an Iranian -- a Muslim woman who speaks out
with courage for human rights, for democracy and for
peace.

This has nothing to do with Iraq.

... Saddam is gone.

There will be someone worse to take his place unless we
withdraw US troops from there.

... Iraq is free.

Free to be destroyed by bombs, insurgents and the mounting US casualties of service men and women.


Now that you have been educated and caught up in general terms of what has happened over the past couple of years, you may return to the discussion.

I'm sorry but this "education" sounds like a pipe dream concocted by the Bush team. It has little bearing on fact or reality. And the tooth fairy really exists.

Propaganda reigns supreme.

Frank





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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: GUEST,NW
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 10:06 PM

the only thing hubby knows how to do is cut and paste right wing propaganda and, when that's exposed, to call people " saddam sympathizers". sheesh! what a moron! by the way, has he ever indicated whether he has served our country in uniform?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 11:10 PM

I can copy and paste also, and the Republicans sure are making different noises now:

Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 01:09:09 EDT
Subject: [NOVAPeoplePoweredDems] Republican
Hypocrites! In their own words...

Quotes from when Clinton committed troops to
Bosnia:

"You can support the troops but not the president."
--Rep Tom Delay (R-TX)

"Well, I just think it's a bad idea. What's going
to happen is they're going
to be over there for 10, 15, maybe 20 years."
--Joe Scarborough (R-FL)

"Explain to the mothers and fathers of American
servicemen that may come
home in body bags why their son or daughter have to
give up their life?"
--Sean Hannity, Fox News, 4/6/99

"[The] President . . . is once again releasing
American military might on a
foreign country with an ill-defined objective and no
exit strategy. He has
yet to tell the Congress how much this operation
will cost. And he has not
informed our nation's armed forces about how long
they will be away from home.
These strikes do not make for a sound foreign
policy."
--Sen. Rick Santorum (R-PA)

"American foreign policy is now one huge big
mystery. Simply put, the
administration is trying to lead the world with a
feel-good foreign policy."
--Rep Tom Delay (R-TX)

"If we are going to commit American troops, we must
be certain they have a
clear mission, an achievable goal and an exit
strategy."
--Karen Hughes, speaking on behalf of George W Bush

"I had doubts about the bombing campaign from the
beginning . . I didn't
think we had done enough in the diplomatic area."
--Senator Trent Lott (R-MS)

"I cannot support a failed foreign policy. History
teaches us that it is
often easier to make war than peace. This
administration is just learning that
lesson right now. The President began this mission
with very vague objectives
and lots of unanswered questions. A month later,
these questions are still
unanswered. There are no clarified rules of
engagement. There is no timetable.
There is no legitimate definition of victory. There
is no contingency plan
for mission creep. There is no clear funding
program. There is no agenda to
bolster our over-extended military. There is no
explanation defining what vital
national interests are at stake. There was no
strategic plan for war when the
President started this thing, and there still is no
plan today"
--Rep Tom Delay (R-TX)

"Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for
the President to
explain to us what the exit strategy is."
--Governor George W. Bush (R-TX)

Funny thing is, we won that war without a single
killed in action.

Courtesy of DailyKos


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 07:47 AM

I love these quotes, Bill.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 12:10 PM

SuSu's husband:

By the rhetoric that is thrown around in here, I would almost believe that the majority of you are Saddam Hussein sympathizers.

Well, if you listen to the likes of Hannity, Limbaugh, etc., who are convinced that anyone that casts aspersions on the actions of der Fuhre... -- um, sorry, -- Dubya, in the face of overwhelming evidence that Iraq is in many, many, many respects a royal SNAFU, must obviously and logically therefore also be Saddam-lovers that masturbate to his picture over their bed every night. Sad to say, I forgot to take logic courses in my college days, so I missed this quite useful syllogistic tactic. Could you explain how it works? Thanks in advance.

Care to explain why you decided to make this statement? Trying to make friends and influence people? Or was it just the cognitive dissonance creeping in?   Do go on....

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 01:13 PM

SuSu's husband:

Because I would hate to think that you really didn't want to help the Iraqis because you really don't like George W. Bush.

You're assuming that what we did actually helped Iraqis.

You might ask the many thousands of Iraqi casualties if they've been helped sufficiently enough. You'll have to listen carefully; they are dead now and speak rather softly now.

You might ask the women of Iraq if the imposition of Islamic law, nay, maybe even Shiaria law, helps them.

You might ask the people so afraid to leave their own homes for fear of being blown up by terrorists or rounded up and/or shot to pieces by the U.S. troops in some "mistake" if they think that the "right to vote" in some Potempkin election to score cheap political points for Dubya is worth the upheaval.

You rejoice in the fact that some measures of "progress" (lights, water, banks, telephones[!] .... say, any 'Merkun "values" sneaking in there?) are almost getting back to the state they were in before we started blowing the country apart. Interesting way to mark "progress": Dig a hole and when you climb out, talk about the lofty heights you have scaled....

Then you need to ask yourself ... seriously ... if in fact these things are so good to have (which perhaps many in Iraq would currently put a bit father down the big list of concerns), why you think that guns and bombs ... and the lives of American soldiers ... was the way to accomplish this.

BTW, I'd remind you that the terrorists don't really hate water, telephones, electricity ... and oil, certainly not oil. No, they blow these things up because the don't like (maybe even hate) the U.S. occupation and what the U.S. occupation represents. So surely there was a way (I suspect there isn't any more) we could have worked on these noble causes without a "war against WMD" ... "" that, IIRC, didn't find any of these WMD we were assured by the maladministration were all over the place. How can you claim with a straight face that the fiasco there was anything but a disaster. Tell you what: Explain it to Bronze Star recipient Chuck Hagel. Tell me what he says.

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 09:46 AM

Snatching defeat out of the hands of a victorious secular society with rights for women is quite a blunder. Gone are the bragging rights Bush had for removing the veils of women persecuted by the Afghan Taliban. Now in Iraq the Contitution will call for women to be 1/2 equal to any man be it on a jury or inheritence or voting.

Now we hear the Bushite excuses that our Constitution was not initially fair either.

The glorified US made monster Saddam Hussein did not commit a single crime that the USA has not commited on one scale or another.

Some in Iraq now hope for an openly declared civil war since over 1000 are being killed in Baghdad every month from crime and terror of an undeclared power struggle.

One poll we may never see is the answer to the question put to Iraqis today:

Would you prefer to have Saddam back in power or continue foreign occupation?


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