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BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'

Donuel 20 Jun 05 - 11:51 AM
Peace 20 Jun 05 - 11:53 AM
Donuel 20 Jun 05 - 12:00 PM
Le Scaramouche 20 Jun 05 - 12:29 PM
Rapparee 20 Jun 05 - 01:20 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Jun 05 - 05:21 PM
Troll 20 Jun 05 - 06:55 PM
akenaton 20 Jun 05 - 07:05 PM
Mr Happy 20 Jun 05 - 08:11 PM
Blissfully Ignorant 20 Jun 05 - 08:13 PM
Bobert 20 Jun 05 - 09:34 PM
dianavan 20 Jun 05 - 10:12 PM
Peace 21 Jun 05 - 10:28 AM
GUEST,petr 21 Jun 05 - 01:23 PM
Susu's Hubby 21 Jun 05 - 02:27 PM
Peace 21 Jun 05 - 02:30 PM
Susu's Hubby 21 Jun 05 - 02:39 PM
Peace 21 Jun 05 - 02:40 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Jun 05 - 03:08 PM
Susu's Hubby 21 Jun 05 - 05:49 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Jun 05 - 04:23 PM
Susu's Hubby 22 Jun 05 - 04:31 PM
Donuel 22 Jun 05 - 05:04 PM
CarolC 22 Jun 05 - 05:16 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Jun 05 - 05:56 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Jun 05 - 06:02 PM
Wesley S 22 Jun 05 - 06:03 PM
CarolC 22 Jun 05 - 06:26 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Jun 05 - 07:10 PM
Donuel 22 Jun 05 - 07:37 PM
GUEST,petr 22 Jun 05 - 08:01 PM
CarolC 22 Jun 05 - 08:53 PM
Donuel 23 Jun 05 - 08:37 AM
dianavan 23 Jun 05 - 11:42 PM
Donuel 24 Jun 05 - 08:59 AM
GUEST,Wolfgang 24 Jun 05 - 12:35 PM
GUEST 24 Jun 05 - 07:41 PM
dianavan 24 Jun 05 - 09:25 PM
freda underhill 10 Aug 05 - 06:10 AM
freda underhill 10 Aug 05 - 06:11 AM
Little Hawk 10 Aug 05 - 01:45 PM
Amos 10 Aug 05 - 02:49 PM
GUEST 10 Aug 05 - 04:36 PM
Peace 10 Aug 05 - 04:42 PM
CarolC 10 Aug 05 - 04:46 PM
Peace 10 Aug 05 - 06:32 PM
CarolC 10 Aug 05 - 06:41 PM
katlaughing 10 Aug 05 - 07:05 PM
katlaughing 10 Aug 05 - 07:11 PM
Richard Bridge 10 Aug 05 - 07:21 PM

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Subject: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 11:51 AM

Several retired military CNN talking heads said that the consensus among US generals is that there is no military solution to the Iraq war, only a political solution will succeed in Iraq.

When asked what that would entail they said uniformily,

"WE NEED MORE TROOPS to keep the peace so a political solution will have time to develop."

.......................

Why can't at least one news moderator just once crack up lauging so hard at those kind of interviews that they can not carry on?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 11:53 AM

One, two, three, what are we fighting for?
Don't ask 'cause I don't give a damn--

WHOOPS! Silly me. Wrong war.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 12:00 PM

One, two, three, what are we fighting for?
Don't ask 'cause I don't give a crap
we're stuck in ol Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 12:29 PM

They do need more men, but thousands to do anything. it's a bottomless pit.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 01:20 PM

Yeah, I heard LAST WEEK that the military in Iraq said that the solution to the insurgency had to be political, not military.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 05:21 PM

I don't know what the solution to Iraq's problems might be, but history suggests that no military force is ever big enough to stop people who are eager to die because they have been taught that killing infidels is a short cut to heaven.

Iraq is a no win situation for the Coalition, and they must be aware of the parallel with Vietnam. An army never beats a totally anonymous force. The enemy are virtually invisible until they detonate, while your own troops stand out as clearly identifiable targets.

Unless Britain and the USA work out a way to safely hand over the reins to the Iraqi government, the body bags will pile up higher and higher till the populations of those countries can't accept any more.

Then, Blair & Bush, watch out.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Troll
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 06:55 PM

Lets see how it plays out after the Iraqi Govt. finishes trying Saddam.
If they convict and execute him, the whole scene may change. Right now, he (and probably a lot of his countrymen) thinks he will return to power.

If he is gone, there is no likely sucessor to his power.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 07:05 PM

troll...You forget that the many of the people who are now engaged agaist the Americans, would have murdered Saddam years ago if they had been given the chance.

Saddams regime was secular, a very important point which the geniuses in the pentagon failed to grasp when they set off on their great adventure to bring democracy to the infidel.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Mr Happy
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 08:11 PM

'bring democracy to the infidel'?

Surely its the non-muslim foreign invaders who are the 'Infidels'!


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 08:13 PM

Everyone's an infidel in someone elses opinion...


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 09:34 PM

Well, like I've said in the past: When the US leaves there will be a civil war. Don't matter if it's tomorrow, next week, next year of next century...

Very stupid foriegn policy decision made by some very stupid people...

Future historians, should there be any in the wake of the America's Bush chapter, will not look kindly on this administration's complete ineptitude...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 10:12 PM

You are exactly right, Bobert. Its not like the Iraqis liked Saddam but they knew his ruthless dictatorship kept them from civil war.

The invasion by the U.S. has accomplished absolutely nothing.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 10:28 AM

To be an infidel in someone else's opinion is one thing. To be an infidel in someone else's country is another.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 01:23 PM

the closest comparison to Iraq, would be the Algerian insurgency in the 60s. The French ultimately won, but the French population was disgusted at their hardline tactics, and ultimately the leader of the Algerian insurgency became the president of Algeria after the French left.

By the way one of the young French officers in Algeria was Jacque Chirac. Which probably helps to explain why he tried to get the AMericans not to invade.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 02:27 PM

"The invasion by the U.S. has accomplished absolutely nothing."

dianavan,

I'm sorry you feel that way. Let me inform you on what the accomplishments are so that you may take an active part in the discussion.

Accomplishments in Iraq

... the first battalion of the new Iraqi Army has
graduated and is on active duty.

... over 60,000 Iraqis now provide security to their
fellow citizens.

... nearly all of Iraq's 400 courts are functioning.

... the Iraqi judiciary is fully independent.

... on Monday, October 6 power generation hit 4,518
megawatts - exceeding the prewar average.

... all 22 universities and 43 technical institutes
and colleges are open, as are nearly all primary and
secondary schools.

... by October 1, Coalition forces had rehab-ed over
1,500 schools - 500 more than scheduled.

... teachers earn from 12 to 25 times their former
salaries.

... all 240 hospitals and more than 1200 clinics are
open.

... doctors salaries are at least eight times what
they were under Saddam.

... pharmaceutical distribution has gone from
essentially nothing to 700 tons in May to a current
total of 12,000 tons.

... the Coalition has helped administer over 22
million vaccination doses to Iraq's children.

... a Coalition program has cleared over 14,000
kilometers of Iraq's 27,000 kilometers of weed-choked
canals which now irrigate tens of thousands of farms.
This project has created jobs for more than 100,000
Iraqi men and women.

... we have restored over three-quarters of prewar
telephone services and over two-thirds of the potable
water production.

... there are 4,900 full-service telephone
connections. We expect 50,000 by year-end.

... the wheels of commerce are turning. From bicycles
to satellite dishes to cars and trucks, businesses are
coming to life in all major cities and towns.

... 95 percent of all prewar bank customers have
service and first-time customers are opening accounts
daily.

... Iraqi banks are making loans to finance
businesses.

... the central bank is fully independent.

... Iraq has one of the worlds most growth-oriented
investment and banking laws.

... Iraq has a single, unified currency for the first
time in 15 years.

... satellite TV dishes are legal.

... foreign journalists aren't on 10-day visas paying
mandatory and extortionate fees to the Ministry of
Information for minders and other government spies.

... there is no Ministry of Information.

... there are more than 170 newspapers.

... you can buy satellite dishes on what seems like
every street corner.

... foreign journalists (and everyone else) are free
to come and go.

... a nation that had not one single element -
legislative, judicial or executive - of a
representative government, now does.

... in Baghdad alone residents have selected 88
advisory councils. Baghdad's first democratic transfer
of power in 35 years happened when the city council
elected its new chairman.

... today in Iraq chambers of commerce, business,
school and professional organizations are electing
their leaders all over the country.

... 25 ministers, selected by the most representative
governing body in Iraq's history, run the day-to-day
business of government.

... the Iraqi government regularly participates in
international events. Since July the Iraqi government
has been represented in over two dozen international
meetings, including those of the UN General Assembly,
the Arab League, the World Bank and IMF and, today,
the Islamic Conference Summit. The Ministry of Foreign
Affairs announced that it is reopening over 30
Iraqi embassies around the world.

... Shia religious festivals that were all but banned,
aren't.

... for the first time in 35 years, in Karbala
thousands of Shiites celebrate the pilgrimage of the
12th Imam.

... the Coalition has completed over 13,000
reconstruction projects, large and small, as part of a
strategic plan for the reconstruction of Iraq.

... Uday and Qusay are dead - and no longer feeding
innocent Iraqis to the zoo lions, raping the young
daughters of local leaders to force cooperation,
torturing Iraq's soccer players for losing games, or
murdering critics.

... children aren't imprisoned or murdered when their
parents disagree with the government.

... political opponents aren't imprisoned, tortured,
executed, maimed, or are forced to watch their
families die for disagreeing with Saddam.

... millions of longsuffering Iraqis no longer live in
perpetual terror.

... Saudis will hold municipal elections.

... Qatar is reforming education to give more choices
to parents.

... Jordan is accelerating market economic reforms.

... the Nobel Peace Prize was awarded for the first
time to an Iranian -- a Muslim woman who speaks out
with courage for human rights, for democracy and for
peace.

... Saddam is gone.

... Iraq is free.


Now that you have been educated and caught up in general terms of what has happened over the past couple of years, you may return to the discussion.



Hubby


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 02:30 PM

That was a bit snotty. You had me until "Now that you have been educated and caught up in general terms of what has happened over the past couple of years, you may return to the discussion." Then, you lost me.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 02:39 PM

brucie,


you're right. I apologize, dianavan. I didn't mean to be "snotty".


Thank you for taking me to task, brucie.



Hubby


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 02:40 PM

Sorry, buddy. I am having a crappy day. No business taking it out on you.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 03:08 PM

Hubby,

No one can deny the truth of what you say. That is indeed the situation.

How many years, do you think, will the Americans and Brits have to stay there, for those achievements to outlast their departure by more than a few weeks?

And how many of the finest young men of both countries, and how many Iraqis, will die before that happy day?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 05:49 PM

Don T.,


"How many years, do you think, will the Americans and Brits have to stay there, for those achievements to outlast their departure by more than a few weeks?"

The quick answer is that "I don't know". Is it a matter of years or is it only months? The powers that be in Iraq are the only ones that can answer that question.

As I have pointed out in previous posts on other threads, we still are showing a presence in Europe, Germany, Japan, and South Korea. The only one of those places that our troops are truly in any sort of immediate danger is in South Korea. We only have 36,000 troops standing between hardline communism in the north and freedom and democracy in the south.

But what does their presence in these countries do for that country? It continues to be a deterence against further aggression. We did not come into those countries as an occupying force. But we chose to stay to help rebuild and to stabilize. We continued to lose soldiers lives after WWII due to pockets of Japanese and German resistance. Just as what's happening now in Iraq. But the difference today is that we have 24 hour access to news about everyday occurences in Iraq as to where we had to catch news reels at the movie house on Saturdays about what was happening overseas.

Now, the challenge is that the enemy has changed. So our tactics have to change as well. The enemy is not, particularly, governments or soldiers in marked uniforms but it's people that can blend in to the normal looking background. It's much harder to know who the enemy is now that we are fighting religious ideals put forth by hardliners and extremists. They don't wear brown shirts or have a specific insignia on their breasts signifying who they are or what creed they subscribe to. Thus making it much more difficult to determine the good guys from the bad. And sadly, because of this, more innocent people die as a result. (please notice that I didn't say as "THE" result).

The new Iraqi government has invited the coalition forces to stay and help as long as they need us to in order for their forces to be trained and equipped as much as they need to be in order for them to determine who the enemy is and what the best tactics are to fight and put the squelch on the aggression that shows it's ugly head in day to day reports on the news. As long as they want us there, we, unfortunately, will have to continue hearing about incidents where troops are getting injured and killed while trying to help the Iraqis get to that point. On the news, now, most of what we are hearing is how the resistance has blown up an Iraqi police station or set off a car bomb in an Iraqi crowd.

For the most part, other than a few isolated incidents, the resistance has learned not to make continued targets of the coalition forces whenever there are easier targets around. This shows them to be the cowards that they truly are. Now, not only are the troops trying to protect themselves but are now having to be on the lookout for undetectable enemies not gunning for, so much, them anymore but for the average Iraqi citizen who is going out and trying to take advantage of the situation of having jobs, electricity, education, food, water, satellites and whatever other things they want that has not been readily available to them over the past few decades.

Even the French helped the Americans whenever we fought for independence from England. Did they stick around forever? No, they stuck around for as long as it took to help us get the job done.

Now, does this make me feel good? No, not really. My nephew, who has just returned from an 8 month deployment in Afghanistan will be home for about two weeks before returning to Hawaii to get ready to be deployed to Iraq. He's a US Marine. He'll be in the thick of things. He's infantry. He was a forward observer in Afghanistan and he'll do the same in Iraq. He knows his job. He loves his job. The rest of the family can't quite grasp him being so comfortable in his job but we do find comfort in the fact that he is comfortable. He has told all of us several times that if he has to die to protect either us or his buddies or a complete stranger in another land then that is what he is willing to do. That gives us, at least, some sort of comfort when he gets on that plane and we all know what lays ahead of him.

Before graduating boot camp in San Diego, he was nominated to be part of the Presidential guard. The family was ecstatic to learn this because this meant that he wouldn't be going to war. But he turned it down. Why? In his words, "The last time I checked, there were no soldiers dying on the White House lawn." What more does that say about the attitude of our soldiers? They believe in their mission. They see the forward strides and progress that are being made in Iraq. They are pissed about the lack of coverage that exists about those gains being made. They want to be there to help people that need help. Now all they hear from the homefront is "Bring our troops home" or "Nobody died when Clinton lied" or some other catchy phrase that will be the next bumper sticker from the ranks of the "progressives".

Some have posted above that there is no military solution but rather a political one? I'm actually glad to hear that. That doesn't take away one bit of what the military has accomplished or will continue to accomplish. That tells me that because the military has accomplished what they have, the resistance sees no other way out but to try and make whatever political deals they can before, they too, cross into the sights of the rifle carried by a soldier who knows what his job is.

I hope that this message has not come across as "snotty".

Don T., I hope I have provided the answers to your questions.


Hubby :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 04:23 PM

No SH, it doesn't come across at all as being snotty.

I should point out here that Susu's Hubby, also PM'd this to me, but as he has posted here also, I think my reply, in fairness, should also be public. So copy/pasted as follows:-



"A very cogent and reasoned reply, and, of course, in an ideal world one could not refute a word of it. As far as the soldiers fighting both for the USA, and for Britain, are concerned, you have indeed answered my questions, and very well.

My problem is with the USA and UK governments, who went to war on the basis of a pack of lies. The evidence for this is also irrefutable, amd my fear is that these people don't care how many men die, as long as it serves their political aims.

If those aims were in any way about liberty and democracy for Iraq, as opposed to the personal aggrandisement of the two men responsible, I would not be worried.

I foresee a situation analogous to Vietnam, where they will stay too long in a no win situation, and soldiers will die unnecessarily to provide copy for their personal memoirs.

And I fear that young men who have served a cause in which they, believed will return home to be spat upon, and called baby killers, as happened after Vietnam.

I think that the squandering of their youth, or even their lives, cannot be justified on the basis of bringing democracy to a country which, in the main hates, and distrusts all western democracies, and particularly the USA.

It is not even certain that the majority of Iraqis want democracy, but it is certain that they want to see the back of what they consider to be invaders of their territory. The most likely outcome, IMO, is that the Ayatollahs will take over, and we will have created an enemy state far worse than the one we brought down".

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 04:31 PM

I too will publicly post my response.




Don,

Thanks for the response.

Where we disagree is in the fact that the war is being fought based on a pack of lies and the parallels that are being drawn to Vietnam.
Also, the fact of whether or not the Iraqis even want us there.

But I do think that one thing that we can agree on is the fact that we are there. So we may as well do what we can to set them up in the most positive form of government that will allow them the best chance of survival once we're gone.

As far as supporting the troops, I believe that it's every American's duty to support the troops even if you don't believe in the cause for which they are fighting or even agree with the commander in chief from whom they have taken their orders from. To blame the troops or to call them "baby killers" or even to spit upon them when they return shows the utmost in disrespect to the men and women who have sacrificed greatly in order to fulfill the missions that they have been asked to undertake. To do so would be the utmost in immaturity and selfishness.

You seem to be a man with a conscience and great morality. I admire that in people, even those I don't necessarily agree with in principal. Please don't take what I have said above personally. I would never dream that somebody of your caliber would do something so vile.


Hubby


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 05:04 PM

Even Bob Novak has jumped ship from the "Hurray for Iraqi freedom" propoganda* to "its a situation in which even the most staunch conservatives now realize is a disaster".


*the very copy and paste job as seen above.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 05:16 PM

on the basis of bringing democracy to a country which, in the main hates, and distrusts all western democracies, and particularly the USA

Don(Wyziwyg)T, on what do you base your assertion that "in the main" (I take that to mean the majority of Iraqis), the country of Iraq "hates, and distrusts all western democracies...particularly the USA"?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 05:56 PM

Based on the fact that, like the Iranians, there are numerous published references to "The great Satan", and also on TV pictures of Iraqis dancing in the streets at the news of casualties among Coalition troops, in both gulf wars.

I think that is fairly good evidence that we are not high on their Christmas card list.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 06:02 PM

In response to Susu's Hubby, my reply to a PM:-


All taken in the spirit intended SH.

I agree that the only way to go is to try to finish what we have started.

With regard to the "babykillers" comment, one of the worst memories of my entire life was watching on UK television, as a group of young Americans spat at, and reviled returning soldiers with comments such as "babykillers", "murderers", and other epithets.

I will not to my dying day forget the shock and hurt on the faces of those young soldiers, many of whom had been drafted straight out of college, as they realised that their peers regarded them, not as heroes, but as villains. It is my earnest desire to be spared having to see the like again.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Wesley S
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 06:03 PM

Hubby - Best of luck to your nephew. I'm sure we all wish him well. Keep us posted on his situation if you can please.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 06:26 PM

Based on the fact that, like the Iranians, there are numerous published references to "The great Satan"

Could you please point me in the direction of some of these coming from the majority of Iraqis?


and also on TV pictures of Iraqis dancing in the streets at the news of casualties among Coalition troops, in both gulf wars

The majority of Iraqis? How many were there dancing in the streets? Did you count them?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 07:10 PM

CarolC, I really can't be arsed to churn through several years of newspapers and TV reports just to satisfy your determination to disbelieve anything that is contrary to your own view.

Pity more people weren't that suspicious of Bush's statements on WMDs.
We might not have been having this discussion.

SH, Thank you for being prepared to discuss, and for your respect for my views, even when you do not agree.


I'm out of here. BYEE.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 07:37 PM

"Where we disagree is in the fact that the war is being fought based on a pack of lies and the parallels that are being drawn to Vietnam.
Also, the fact of whether or not the Iraqis even want us there. But I do think that one thing that we can agree on is the fact that we are there"
.................

This reads a bit like a movie script in which 3 guys in a Vegas hotel room are trying to come to grips with the fact they have a dead hooker in thier room.

One guy wants to call the cops but the savvy guy argues that the one thing they can agree upon is the fact there is a dead body in the bathroom and they will have to deal with it themselves. Heck they don't feel like murderers. Besides its only a hooker.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 08:01 PM

The US certainly wasnt met with cheering crowds and flowers as Cheney predicted. And whether or not one supported the invasion, the strategy that followed was rife with stupidity. (ie. disbanding the Iraqi army and thereby releasing hundreds of thousands, embittered, idle young men on the street WITH their weapons, instead of putting them to work, cleaning up the streets, unclogging the sewers, getting the infrastructure back - which is what Garner (dismissed by the White HOuse) planned to do.
ONe wonders also about a president who accepts no advice, except from his inner circle of neocons (and we know how accurate Wolfowitz was about the number of troops needed, and that IRaq will be totally self funding ... thanks to its oil wealth)..

in a recent survey in Iraq, only 2% of Iraqis regarded the US as liberators. That pretty much says it all. Eventually they will go, and its unlikely those 14bases they are building will be sustainable.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 08:53 PM

My problem with what you are saying, Don, is the broad, sweeping, and unsupported (and rather hateful sounding) generalizations that you are making about the majority of Iraqis.

As for whether or not I was suspicious of what the Bush administration was saying pre-invasion about WMD, I was very suspicious, and I said so in my posts right here in the Mudcat during the period leading up to the war.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 08:37 AM

The strength of our 'metel' will remain long after we are gone.



http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/metalofdishonor3.jpg


Silent and invisible, the radiation we have spread in Iraq is equivilent to literally thounsands of Hiroshima detonations.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 11:42 PM

250,000 Nagasaki bombs = the amount of radiation unleashed in Iraq

Good article, Donuel.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 08:59 AM

There is a haunting song that pertains to the bio hazards people encounter in their work and radiation ravaged lands.

"We bring more home to our families than our love and a pay check..."


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 12:35 PM

Good article, Donuel. (Dianavan)

Which article? What am I missing?

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 07:41 PM

you yanks will never mind your own business
you think you are the world police


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 09:25 PM

Sorry Wolfgang,

I took a big leap. When Donuel mentioned radiation in Iraq, I googled it and read an article or two. When I rtnd., I attributed the link to Donuel. Sorry again.

If your curious, google iraq radiation.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: freda underhill
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 06:10 AM

http://www.lewrockwell.com/sheehan/sheehan10.html

Still Not Worth It by Cindy Sheehan
(who is currently camped on the road outside Bush's Crawford, TX,
ranch, where she was stopped by security from speaking to him.
Will she get to see him? Not if continues to use his helicopter
to avoid her.)

Last January, I was bumped from the Larry King Live show for an
appearance by the soon to be proven innocent Michael Jackson. I
was going to be on the program to answer the question: Did I feel
my son's murder in Iraq was "worth it" after the "free" elections
in the war torn country on January 30th. I wrote an article then
called: "Not Worth It." I never thought I would be invited back on as a guest after I pretty much burned the Larry King bridge with my article. However, to my astonishment, I was invited to be a guest on June 28th. I was asked to be on the broadcast in order to give my
impressions and rebuttal to George's speech on Iraq that he
delivered in front of the less than enthusiastic (what the White
House spin doctors call: respectful) troops at Ft. Bragg, NC.

I felt like I was in Bizarro World as I heard George speak about
9/11 five times and mention terrorism 31 times, even though these
rationales for war have been disproved repeatedly. I think George
thinks that since we believed him once about terrorism vis-*-vis
Iraq, that we must therefore be gullible enough to believe him
this time. I don't know, and I am not a professional pundit, but
my theory is he might have mentioned 9/11 to manipulate our
emotions and maybe even frighten us a little again?

The thing that struck me when I was watching that vacuous man
giving his hollow speech was the fact that he could have always
replaced the word "terrorists" with the phrase: "my moronic and
callous foreign policies" For example, when he said that
terrorists spread death and destruction on the streets of Baghdad
and kill innocent people, he could have just as easily said: "My
moronic and callous foreign policies spread death and destruction
on the streets of Baghdad and kill innocent people." When he said
that we need to stop terrorists from toppling governments in the
region, he could have just as easily said: "We need to stop my
moronic and callous foreign policies from toppling governments in
the region." People have characterized the speech-lite in many
ways, but if I had to pick a few words to describe it, I would
say: "Hypocritical, manipulative, condescending, meaningless
drivel."

I sat through an entire hour in the CNN studio in DC hearing not
one person say that the invasion was a mistake and if it was a
mistake, then our troops should be brought home immediately. Even
the "Democratic" Senators (Kerry and Bayh) on the program just
gave their recipes for "success" in Iraq, which did not include
any exit strategies. The guest host for that hour was Bob Costas
and he asked one guest, Sen. John McCain, an intriguing question:
"If you could push Button One and have an eventual wonderful
outcome in Iraq, or if you could push Button Two and never have
had it happen, which one would you pick?" Of course, Sen. McCain
chose Button One. He hasn't had a loved one killed in this
enormous tragedy of a war, nor does he have a loved one in harm's
way. It has not affected him personally one bit. What skin is it
off McCain's nose if our troops remain for a highly unlikely rosy
outcome at the cost of thousands of more lives? I would push the
button that would bring back my son, Casey, and the tens of
thousands of other victims who have been killed for nothing but
outright lies and bald-faced betrayals. I would push the button
that would give Iraq back its power, water, and infrastructure.

My absolute favorite guest of the evening was Sen. John Warner,
powerful chair of the Senate Armed Disservices Committee. Of
course, he fell in lockstep behind his F*hrer and praised the
speech and how, although we have "all" paid a terrible price for
this invasion and occupation, bringing freedom and democracy to
the Iraqi people is worth all the sacrifices that the world is
making. I sat in the Green Room with Sen. Warner's entourage. I
wondered (even out loud) what price they have paid for our
administration's misdeeds in Iraq. They all looked like happy,
well-fed, well-dressed, well-educated, and well-hydrated
Americans. They looked to me like they had plenty of electricity
to blow-dry their hair and charge their cell phones and laptops.
They looked like they had quite a nice supply of clean drinking
water and fresh food. I sincerely doubt if any of them had a
loved one ripped from their lives by a car bomb, IED, or bullet
in an ambush. I wondered who the "we" was that John Warner spoke
of. I spoke with John Warner after his interview and told him
unless he was prepared to sacrifice even a good night's sleep
over this senseless and criminal war, then he should work on
ending it, not prolonging the carnage. He told me that I was
"entitled to my opinion," but he would respectfully have to
disagree with me. That was awfully Constitutional of him!

I finally got on to speak for my 82 seconds (all the time Larry
King Live could spare for the peace message) about how this war
is a catastrophe and how we should bring the troops home and quit
forcing the Iraqi people to pay for our government's hubris and
quit forcing innocent children to suffer so we can allegedly
fight terrorism somewhere besides America. How absolutely racist
and immoral is it to take America's battles to another land and
make an entire country pay for the crimes of others? To me, this
is blatant genocide. How dare we export our brand of flag-waving
death and devastation to a people who have been through so much
already? It wasn't bad enough that our sanctions killed tens of
thousands of Iraqis before we even started an active aggression
against them. Now we have to create confusion, chaos, and
disorder there. How dare our president and Congress, and we
Americans, allow this to continue?

After my brief advocacy for peace, my position was refuted by
another Mom whose son was killed in Iraq in 2003 who said she
"totally disagrees" with me and "feels sorry" for me. Well, you
know what? I ache for her blindness and for the millions of
sheeple who have had the wool pulled over their eyes by the bunch
of hypocritical, bad shepherds who are running a disastrous herd
over the world. I have distressing news for the Soccer Safety
Moms and the NASCAR Dads who are such ardent supporters of this
administration and war: Your grandchildren and children who will
be entering Kindergarten this fall will be fighting George's
endless war if he gets his way and is allowed to continue
spreading the cancer of imperialism in the Middle-East. Donny
Rumsfeld said we could be in Iraq for another dozen years. Does
anybody think with all the billions of dollars that are being
poured into constructing super-sized bases in Iraq that the war
machine plans on relinquishing the cash-cow that is that poor,
unfortunate land anytime soon? Think about it when you tuck your
child into bed tonight.

I heard George and the Senators say that evening the sacrifices
we as Americans have had to make for Iraq are "worth it." I
really would like to know who has benefited and profited from
Iraq and who has really had to sacrifice anything. I know it was
"worth it" to Dick Cheney who was the CEO of Halliburton, (of
no-bid contract fame) which has raped billions of dollars from
our government, from the people of Iraq, and from our soldiers
who are not getting what they need to survive in a combat zone.
It is "worth it" to Black Water Security Co. who sends one-
thousand-dollar-a-day mercenaries to Iraq, funded by the War
Department. It is "worth it" to L. Paul Bremer who slunk out of
Iraq with 8.8 BILLION dollars missing from the Provisional
authority. It is also "worth it" to the other companies and
individuals who have been enriched by feeding our children to the
military industrial complex. By George, I think we have found the
people who think this war is "worth it." But, is it worth it to
George Bush who was counting on this unlawful and unprincipled
aggression in Iraq to give him "political" capital? Instead, if
poll numbers are any good indication, Americans are withdrawing
their assent for George and they are withdrawing their consent
for him to wage eternal war on humanity.

As I sat in the Green Room of CNN, I was saddened and troubled by
George's call for us Americans to fly the flag proudly on the 4th
to honor our troops. For one thing, the American flag is not a
magical token that can bring armor to the troops who are still
dying without the protection. The flag is not a faith healer that
can restore limbs and eyesight to the ones who have been maimed
forever. The flag is not a genie in a bottle that can blink her
eyes and bring our children home from this horrible blunder that
they are suffering for and being slaughtered for. But, as for me,
I will never be able to celebrate another patriotic holiday
without mourning what this nation has stolen from my family. I
will never be able to look at an American flag without thinking
of the uniform my son wore proudly that displayed that same
symbol and the evil ones who desecrated and defiled the stars and
stripes by lying us into the invasion of Iraq. No, Casey's
sacrifice was not "worth it" and George needs to do more than
wave his flag and manipulate our sense of patriotism. He needs to
march his girls to a recruitment center and send them to Iraq to
fight the terrorists that his moronic and callous foreign
policies have recruited or he needs to wake up and smell the
apple pie and bring our other sons and daughters home, now!

July 4, 2005

Cindy Sheehan [send her mail] is the mother of Spc. Casey Austin
Sheehan, KIA 04/04/04 She is co-founder of Gold Star Families for
Peace.

8/9/2005 9:00:00 AM


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: freda underhill
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 06:11 AM

CRAWFORD, Texas, Aug. 9 /U.S. Newswire/ -- More members of Gold Star Families for Peace (GSFP) and Military Families Speak Out (MFSO) are traveling to Texas to join the protest outside of President Bush's ranch in Crawford, Texas, where he is vacationing for the month of August.

Starting today, Gold Star families from Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Arkansas and other states whose loved ones have died as a result of the war in Iraq will be joining one of their members, Cindy Sheehan, at the protest. Ms. Sheehan, whose son Army Specialist Casey Sheehan was killed in Sadr City, Iraq on April 4, 2004, has been in Crawford since August 5th, demanding a meeting with the President. These families will be joined by military families with loved ones currently serving in Iraq or about to deploy or redeploy to Iraq. All of these families are coming to Crawford, Texas to share their stories about the personal costs of the war in Iraq and add their voices to the call for a meeting with President Bush.

On August 3, 2005 President Bush, speaking about the dreadful loss of life in Iraq in early August, said "We have to honor the sacrifices of the fallen by completing the mission... The families of the fallen can be assured that they died for a noble cause." Gold Star and military families coming to Crawford know that the cause was not noble; that their loved ones died, or are currently in harm's way, serving in a war based on lies.

In the first 8 days of August, 36 service members died in Iraq; countless Iraq children, women and men are dying each day. All of the families traveling to Crawford will carry the message to the vacationing President: Honor our fallen and honor our loved ones' service by ending the occupation, bringing the troops home now and taking care of them when they get here.

President Bush has consistently tried to hide, and to hide from, the cost of the war in Iraq. This August, these costs are being brought right to his doorstep.

Members of Gold Star Families for Peace and Military Families Speak Out who are traveling to Crawford will be available for interview beginning on Tuesday afternoon August 9th.

For More Information:

-- Military Families Speak Out: http://www.mfso.org

-- Gold Star Families for Peace: http://www.gsfp.org

http://www.usnewswire.com/


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 01:45 PM

There is generally only one solution to the foreign occupation of a land by force...the departure of those foreign forces.

Examples:

France in WWII
Western Russian in WWII
Burma in WWII
Vietnam from the time the French arrived till the time the Americans and their puppet Catholic-vietnamese regime left.
Afghanistan when it was invaded by the British and later the Russians, and now the Americans, etc.
Zululand when it was invaded by the British.
Ireland when it was invaded by the British.
The 13 original states of the USA when they were occupied by the British.
Canada when it was (briefly and unsuccessfully) invaded by the USA.
Norway, Denmark, Holland, Greece, etc, when they were invaded by the Germans.
Holland when it was invaded by Spain.
France when it was invaded by the English.
Most of Latin America when it was invaded by the Spanish.

Job 1: Get the foreign invaders and colonialists out.
Job 2: Work out the internal differences between divided factions among your own populace...in the case of Iraq (or Ireland) that can take a long, long time! Still, it's preferable to being a colony, in most people's opinion. Oddly enough, they would like to be in charge of their own destiny. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Amos
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 02:49 PM

I believe Bush's problem is not that they want to be in charge of their destiny, but that they want to be in charge of their oil reserves.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 04:36 PM

But stangely enough the Iraqi people were not in charge of their own destiny until they were invaded. Now they are.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Peace
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 04:42 PM

There is of course a military solution for the Iraq war, just as there was for the Vietnam war. However, the consequences don't bear thinking about.

It was Goldwater who said words to the effect: "We can win in Vietnam if we nuke the North." And that was true. Let's just hope that the bright lights in Washington don't perceive that to be a solution or a way out of the quagmire of Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 04:46 PM

Make a desolation and call it "peace"?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Peace
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 06:32 PM

"These plunderers of the world, after exhausting the land by their devastations, are rifling the ocean: stimulated by avarice, if their enemy be rich; by ambition, if poor; unsatiated by the East and by the West: the only people who behold wealth and indigence with equal avidity. To ravage, to slaughter, to usurp under false titles, they call empire; and where they make a desert, they call it peace."

This was said by Tacitus about the Roman conquest of what is today Britain.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 06:41 PM

Yes indeed.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 07:05 PM

Thanks, freda, for posting Ms. Sheehan's message. I am glad the families are going there to support her while the shrub hides out.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 07:11 PM

Just checked my email and found out MoveOn.org is going to take out an ad in the Crawford, TX newspaper, in support of Ms. Sheehan. If anyone is interested, they can send a message of support and/or signature of support by clicking here.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: 'there is no Iraq military solution'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 07:21 PM

It remains to be seen whether there is a military solution, both in Iraq and Afghanistan.

SH - I am not all that impressed by your comparisons with the pre-invasion economy in Iraq - the pre-invasion economy had been devastated by sanctions imposed for what we now know were unjustified reasons. I am quite sickened by your preference for "pro-growth" legislation. We all know that is the recipe for uncontrolled exploitation by American capital.

Now I would have been all for assassinating Saddam Hussein (illegal though it might have been). What I don't hold with is ravaging Iraq and murdering Iraquis because we didn't like their leader.

Nor do I approve of imposing American ideas of civilisation (American-style) democracy (American-style) and economy (American-style) on Iraq. How is that freedom for the Iraquis? It merely makes them another puppet state of the USA.


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