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BS: durbin apology not enough...

tarheel 22 Jun 05 - 08:31 AM
GUEST,DDurbin 22 Jun 05 - 08:34 AM
RichM 22 Jun 05 - 08:56 AM
Doktor Doktor 22 Jun 05 - 09:33 AM
mack/misophist 22 Jun 05 - 10:18 AM
Peace 22 Jun 05 - 10:23 AM
artbrooks 22 Jun 05 - 10:40 AM
Uncle_DaveO 22 Jun 05 - 11:29 AM
Troll 22 Jun 05 - 12:20 PM
Rapparee 22 Jun 05 - 12:56 PM
GUEST,Not that guest, nor the other one 22 Jun 05 - 01:14 PM
Bill D 22 Jun 05 - 01:57 PM
artbrooks 22 Jun 05 - 02:32 PM
frogprince 22 Jun 05 - 02:56 PM
kendall 22 Jun 05 - 02:59 PM
alanabit 22 Jun 05 - 04:31 PM
Uncle_DaveO 22 Jun 05 - 05:59 PM
GUEST 22 Jun 05 - 06:19 PM
Bill D 22 Jun 05 - 06:47 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Jun 05 - 06:53 PM
DougR 22 Jun 05 - 07:55 PM
kendall 22 Jun 05 - 08:37 PM
tarheel 23 Jun 05 - 01:51 PM
Grab 24 Jun 05 - 07:25 AM
Uncle_DaveO 24 Jun 05 - 09:21 AM
Troll 24 Jun 05 - 05:30 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Jun 05 - 06:13 PM
DougR 24 Jun 05 - 06:27 PM
Troll 24 Jun 05 - 06:42 PM
Ebbie 24 Jun 05 - 06:42 PM
jaze 24 Jun 05 - 09:58 PM
Bobert 24 Jun 05 - 10:19 PM
Richard Bridge 24 Jun 05 - 10:27 PM
michaelr 25 Jun 05 - 02:40 PM

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Subject: BS: durbin apology not enough...
From: tarheel
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 08:31 AM

Senator dick durbin's apology is not enough!
he should resign or be thrown out of congress forever!
his words comparing our troops and the prison in guantamino base, to hitler's gestpos and prisons, are forever etched in stone and cannot be forgotten nor forgiven!
he is a disgrace to our nation, the congress and especially to our troops throughout the world fighting and protecting our freedoms..
ironically,our troops are protecting his right to make such a discraceful remark, but that doesn't make it right!
i call for him to do the right thing and resign his senatorial postion, because anything he says or does from here on out will be met with little or no respect!
and that's the way it should be!
actually, he should be shot at sunrise, then he will know for sure how GOOD our troops really are!!!!
tar...


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Subject: RE: BS: durbin apology not enough...
From: GUEST,DDurbin
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 08:34 AM

Okay, you've convinced me. I quit.


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Subject: RE: BS: durbin apology not enough...
From: RichM
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 08:56 AM

this is a joke, right?
Bitchin' about amerika's right to hold onto another country's sovereign territory--and using it for what would be illegal detainment in der homeland?


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Subject: RE: BS: durbin apology not enough...
From: Doktor Doktor
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 09:33 AM

Methinks tarheel doth protest too much. Reminds me of the song about the little bird, who fell freezing, one winter's night from his blizzard-blasted twig into a warm, fresh cowpat ..... his little life being saved, he warbled happily. A passing cat heard the sweet twitters .... and the rest is nobbut a cats dinner. The moral, for those who remember the anecdote, is that when you're in the s***t dont sing too loud about it.
PS - can anyone tell me who does that song ? I know I've heard it on the circuit in the last year.


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Subject: RE: BS: durbin apology not enough...
From: mack/misophist
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 10:18 AM

One element of patriotism is to speak out when your country is in the wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: durbin apology not enough...
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 10:23 AM

"he should be shot at sunrise"

Any chance we can have the shooting at noon? Sunrise is a tad early for me.


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Subject: RE: BS: durbin apology not enough...
From: artbrooks
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 10:40 AM

Mr. Durban's statement did not say a thing about US troops. He was talking about the policy of locking people up for an indefinite period without charges or a trial.


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Subject: RE: BS: durbin apology not enough...
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 11:29 AM

There was nothing wrong with the good Senator's remarks, except perhaps that he didn't make it clear that he was talking about the actions, and policies behind them, which had no necessary reflection on the troops in general. The unspecificity of his statement left him open to attack by the Republicans, who wanted to embarrass a high-placed Democrat.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: durbin apology not enough...
From: Troll
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 12:20 PM

" If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime--Pol Pot or others--that had no concern for human beings. Sadly, that is not the case. This was the action of Americans in the treatment of their prisoners."

Though "Turban" Durbin claims that he did not mean American Troops when he spoke of Pol Pot etc, Just who does he think people are going to think of whith "what Americans had done to prisoners " and "Americans in the treatment of their prisoners." If not American troops, then who.

Did he mean to imply that George Bush and his Cabinet were peosonally conductiog interrogations a'la Saddam?

Somehow, I don't think so. I think that it was a trail balloon to guage the temperment of the voters and he went a little too far over the top for even the die-hard Dems to stomach it.

As for the high temperature and the loud music and the violation of space by females, check out some of the more popular clubs in the summer. And people PAY to get in!

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: durbin apology not enough...
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 12:56 PM

Tarheel is mad because they chose Gitmo instead of NC for the prison.


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Subject: RE: BS: durbin apology not enough...
From: GUEST,Not that guest, nor the other one
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 01:14 PM

And when does the president apologize for all his actions that have directly resulted in the unnecessary deaths and torment of so many people, Americans and others? Tarheel, you are just trolling.


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Subject: RE: BS: durbin apology not enough...
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 01:57 PM

tarheel is not trolling...tarheel is, unfortunately, right serious in his narrow-minded, flag-waving, "my country, right or wrong", diatribes.

You want to be part of the firing squad, tarheel? Any other speeches offend you this week? We could tie Durbin back to back with some other despicable left-wing commie and save one bullet.


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Subject: RE: BS: durbin apology not enough...
From: artbrooks
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 02:32 PM

For those who are basically unconscious, or who accept unquestioningly what others say, here is Senator Durbin's statement.


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Subject: RE: BS: durbin apology not enough...
From: frogprince
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 02:56 PM

I find it hard to comprehend the thinking of someone who condemns a U.S. Senator for pressuring the government of the United States to follow the law of the United States.













i


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Subject: RE: BS: durbin apology not enough...
From: kendall
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 02:59 PM

Off with his head! There are too many democrats in congress anyway~!


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Subject: RE: BS: durbin apology not enough...
From: alanabit
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 04:31 PM

A mere apology for the illegal abduction and detention of hundreds of innocent or untried people would not be enough. It would be a start though. What on earth was there in Durbin's speech that he should have apologised for?


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Subject: RE: BS: durbin apology not enough...
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 05:59 PM

"American Troops" is not a monolithic entity.

If some military personnel--whether by their own barbarism or by direction from above--have committed atrocities, they are deserving of the most severe criticism.

To point out the enormity of certain acts at Guantanamo or elsewhere is not to say that all American troops are culpable.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: durbin apology not enough...
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 06:19 PM

From this side of the Atlantic (and we know about Nazis) he's just about on the button.


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Subject: RE: BS: durbin apology not enough...
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 06:47 PM

well, part of the reason he 'apologized' is that there was a certain element of accuracy in his original remark....It is just that any direct comparison to Nazis is almost always excessive, and it is hard to explain that all you meant was that certain practices use similar reasoning and attitudes that the Nazis would not find strange.

Of course, almost ANYone wants to believe that they or their friends would not approve of REAL Nazi practices, and will protest loudly at any comparison.......so Durbin had to back down.

it is an interesting exercise to try to phrase an explanation of how a class of actions and/or beliefs is dangerous, unfair, bigoted, etc. without using some commonly known reference....but "Nazi" is just too loaded.


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Subject: RE: BS: durbin apology not enough...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 06:53 PM

You can be certain that when the dust has settled and enough years have passed, the views the Senator expressed will be pretty well universally accepted, in the States as well as in the rest of the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: durbin apology not enough...
From: DougR
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 07:55 PM

Durbin did not apologize for what he said. He apologized because some people were offended by what he said. His comparison of our troops (prison guards) to the Nazi and Pol Pot's troops in regard to prisoners remains.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: durbin apology not enough...
From: kendall
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 08:37 PM

Are there NO similarities?


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Subject: RE: BS: durbin apology not enough...
From: tarheel
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 01:51 PM

Hey...you folks do not appreciate me enough!!!
if it were not for me on some days,you folks would be BORED silly!!!
nothing to talk about!
no one to rake over the coals!
what a pity!!
hey..i'm diabetic and my doctor fusses at me everytime he checks me over!!
dang,doesnt he realize that folks like me are JOB SECRITY for him!!!
the same applies here from a different perspective!
have a good one!
tar...


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Subject: RE: BS: durbin apology not enough...
From: Grab
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 07:25 AM

If some military personnel--whether by their own barbarism or by direction from above--have committed atrocities, they are deserving of the most severe criticism.

Indeed they are, DaveO. Trouble is, the FBI reported this and nothing happened. Now the army as a whole, down to the last man, may not be complicit in this. But the fact that the FBI reported it and not a damn thing happened says quite plainly that the whole of the upper echelons of the army tacitly approved of what was going on. That's worth commenting on, don't you think?

Graham.


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Subject: RE: BS: durbin apology not enough...
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 09:21 AM

Graham:

By some military personnel I didn't mean only privates and sergeants and such. The whole chain of command, from the direct actors up to and including the president, is at least potentially culpable.

But one needs to distinguish the fact that those threads of responsility and culpability are fairly narrow (as I see it, anyway), and "our men and women in uniform" or "American Troops" cannot be tarred with that broad brush.

Wisdom (and even fairness) consists in the ability to make appropriate distinctions.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: durbin apology not enough...
From: Troll
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 05:30 PM

From what I have been able to find out, after sifting through all the rhetoric from both sides, the Gitmo detainees are going through a hell of a lot less than those of us who went through boot camp in the '60's ever did.

The real question is their legal status, and I, for one, do not feel competent to comment on it. The question is much too complex.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: durbin apology not enough...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 06:13 PM

I don't actually believe you there, Troll. Or at least I hope what you say is not true.

Which isn't to deny that basic training in many armies is a disgusting process, with a lot in common with torture camps. In both cases the aim is to breakdown new entrants, and produce people who will be incapable of resisting orders, regardless of what those orders might entail.

I imagine Nazi boot camps were pretty similar, with the same objective in mind; I have always understood that the Nazis were more successful in achieving that kind of outcome than the American or British military authorities.

Whether that is the best way to produce the most effective and useful soldiers is quite another matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: durbin apology not enough...
From: DougR
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 06:27 PM

I took basic training in July and August at Camp (now Fort)Hood, Texas. July and August in that part of Texas is almost as bad as the same months in Arizona. So it was no cake walk, but I wouldn't describe it as torture. Neither would I describe as torture the treatment our prison guards expose the detainees to at Gitmo. Torture is life threatening. None of that has been charged at Gitmo, FBI reports or not.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: durbin apology not enough...
From: Troll
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 06:42 PM

McGrath, you have it jsut a little bit wrong. The objective is not to produce soldiers who are unable to resist an order. That would be silly in the face of it.

What you want is men who will trust their superiors judgement and knowledge of the situation and obey their orders without debate or delay. As long as the superiors -sgts. etc- don't let their men down, they will be an effective fighting force who can, and will, go if their commanders are killed or incapacitated, using their own initative.

Soldiers who are trained to be unable to disobey any order will have no initative and will stop if there are no orders forthcoming from higher up.

They are usually useless if they are promoted into any post of responsibility as they have been trained not to think at all.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: durbin apology not enough...
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 06:42 PM

DougR, it has been solidly documented that there have abeen a number of reported fatalities at the hands of interrogators at the camp- mightn't you call the process "life threatening"?


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Subject: RE: BS: durbin apology not enough...
From: jaze
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 09:58 PM

Is it only YOUR idea of torture that's against the Geneva convention, Doug? What would you say if this was happening to OUR guys?


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Subject: RE: BS: durbin apology not enough...
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 10:19 PM

Well, gol danged...

Seems every time that anyone points out that the Republican Party does things that are Nazi-like the Repubs act like a nest of wasps (pun intended) that has been disturbed... They go ballistic!!!

Problem is, there were a number of former Nazi and Nazi sympathizers who were courted by the Republican Party after WWII and broght into the party.... The Heritage Foundation was organized almost exclusively by former Nazis...

This is why they go berserk... It's because these comaparsions are hittin' just a little too close to home for their comfort...

And, BTW, how come they (the Repubs) get to turn everything around when the sh*t hits the fan... Yeah, a couple corporals get a couple years in the brig while the Donnie Rumsfelds get off scott free... When has Bush, 'er any of his boys (Condi included) every been held responsible for THEIR screw ups???? Like when.... NEVER, that's when and why? Because there are way too many folks out there who truly believe that the three branches of governemnt are NASCAR, BUsweiser and Country Music....

And tarheel is surrounded by 'um....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: durbin apology not enough...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 10:27 PM

Durbin right.


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Subject: RE: BS: durbin apology not enough...
From: michaelr
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 02:40 PM

Durbin's comments were right on the money. It could be argued that Nazi comparisons are unwise in the current political climate; that does not make them inappropriate.

It's too bad Durbin was pressured into an apology. Boy, do I wish the Democrats would find a spine among them!

Cheers,
Michael


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