Songwriter's Songwriters

Subject: RE: Songwriter's Songwriters
From: GUEST,slickerbill
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 02:49 PM

Well I'll be. So it is. Thanks for the education amigos. Still think it's a great song though. sb

Subject: RE: Songwriter's Songwriters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 01:49 PM

last sentence should read "for an interview of breathtaking shallowness"

sorry!

al

Subject: RE: Songwriter's Songwriters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 01:47 PM

the point I'm trying, and obviously not making is that we may be able to perform songs, but we may live in a social context where its impossible to write songs like that

desolation Row is a great case in point. sure we all nursed our alienation in college dorms to the strain of that anthem. You could even take it to the concert platform like Chris Smither does.

however if you you are working within the confines of a three song floor spot if you wrote such a song, I think you would be booted offstage. so examine these masterpieces that work for you by all means - then get real about the actual nature of the creative opportunities that God has handed you as a writer.

recently i was amazed to find that a couple of djs were playing a six and a half minute song I had written - so maybe I'm paranoid - however I've been there when an a&r man was auditioning tapes - most of them didn't stay playing for a minute. Similarly I've been to Radio Derby and Radio nottingham breakfast shows when they have played about one and a half minutes of a three and a half minute song, and thats after getting you up as some ungodly time(for a musician) for breathtaking shallowness.

best of luck with your venture anyway!

al

Subject: Lyr Add: TRACK OF WORDS (Steve Knightly)
From: Grab
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 01:28 PM

Not that I'd count as much of a songwriter, but I'd vote Steve Knightley. Galway Farmer, Tall Ships, Sit You Down and Widecombe Fair are all great, but I'd probably opt for Track Of Words as a truly amazing bit of writing.

I'll lay a track of words before you
You can walk them for a while
They might be some comfort to you
When you face the weary mile
Maybe you'll smile

You can choose a word like 'shelter'
Here's another word like 'rest'
I'll place words like 'safe haven'
On the paths you know the best
These words will caress

I'll lay a track of words before you
So let them be your guide
To lead to the right turnings
When you've lost the way inside
I know how you tried

I'll lay a track of words before you
Then every voice you've ever heard
In your heart on quiet hillsides
And every gentle breeze will stir
This silent track of words

Justification? Well, you notice that it's expressive without ever nailing down who's expressing it, or about whom. It works equally well as a letter to an existing lover, or to a lover leaving, or as a parent for their child, or even about a song cheering you up in the hard times, or any number of other interpretations. It's a song with *depth*.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Songwriter's Songwriters
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 01:07 PM

So, where did the idea of comparing songs and their relative value come from? It sure ain't mine. And it has absolutely nothing to do with the workshop that I'm considering. The workshop would be very simple... for a songwriter to perform a song by another writer that works well for him. That doesn't mean it would work well in a beer tent or a church revival or a roller rink. It would just be an interesting (to me) chance to hear songwriters express their appreciation of the work of other writers. A different perspective in talking about the whole mystery of creating a song.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Songwriter's Songwriters
From: Highlandman
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 12:36 PM

WLD's point is also the reason there can't be a simple "best." I agree with Alanabit that it should be part of the analysis of what makes a song "work" -- how well does the writer pull off what he's trying to do?
Comparing songs like McColl's with Earle's head to head might be pointless, but both could be studied in the same workshop with reference to the songwriters' apparent intention. In fact, I would suggest that a song that promises to be traditional sounding but unintentionally wanders off into a modern social commentary would probably be a good "bad example" for the workshop. That is, if I could think of one, I would suggest that. ;-)
-HM

Subject: RE: Songwriter's Songwriters
From: alanabit
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 12:16 PM

I don't think it is pointless at all. In fact, the point which you have just made about pragmatism and context is one of the most important aspects of what makes a song work. When I was singing in rock bands and playing on the street, I needed a very different sort of song to the one which I need today. We all know that satire will not work in a beer tent... Far from giving a reason not to do the workshop, I think you have given another very good factor which the participants should be aware of. I wish I was going!

Subject: RE: Songwriter's Songwriters
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 12:15 PM

Oh, Lonesome Me was written a recorded by Don Gibson. One of the first songs I learned. Was about 10 at the time.

Subject: RE: Songwriter's Songwriters
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 12:07 PM

Kate Long's "Where will I go from here?"

So much content packed into a few words.

It should be the boomer anthem.

Subject: RE: Songwriter's Songwriters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 12:01 PM

To be honest I think its a little bit pointless.

Songs work in different contexts. The pub singalong, the dance, the rave, the singaround , the folkclub, the concert stage, the video, the sports arena, the rock arena......

A song you admire may not be the sort of thing that would work given the audience you have, the performer you have use of......


Of course we can say we are true artists and we write for ourselves. But I think an important part of songwriting, poetry , srorytelling....has to be communication.

theres a certain pragmatism to songwriting, which I think is too often overlooked, and which is an important part of the craft.

Subject: RE: Songwriter's Songwriters
From: alanabit
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 11:53 AM

You will correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the "Oh Lonesome Me", which Neil young recorded on "After The Gold Rush", was a Don Gibson song.

Subject: RE: Songwriter's Songwriters
From: GUEST,slickerbill
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 11:39 AM

"or so the story goes"

Subject: RE: Songwriter's Songwriters
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 07:15 PM

"They only let him get away, out of kindness I suppose".

Subject: RE: Songwriter's Songwriters
From: GUEST,slickerbill
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 06:54 PM

There's a couple I would go with right off the top;

Definately agree with the Steve Earle suggestions above, but I'd add "Ellis Unit 1" or several of his other story songs. Simplicity of melody and lyrics, and yet pack so much emotion and story in there.

Townes Van Zandt's "Poncho and Lefty". Story with ambiguity. Just captures the complexities of life, loyalty, and with an unbelievably beautiful melody...

Often I include Hank Williams, "Oh Lonesome Me", but heavily borrowing from the Neil Young version. Both ridiculously prolific writers.

I think for all of em it's the simplicity I enjoy. Rich imagery, yet not wordy or over long. Great choruses. sb

Subject: RE: Songwriter's Songwriters
From: GUEST,slickerbill
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 06:46 PM

Subject: RE: Songwriter's Songwriters
From: breezy
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 04:54 PM

Mike Agranoff has the Last Minstral Show on CD

Its a very good song as a closer or encore

My songwriter of this month is Anthony John Clarke, but then I'm 9 years behind , still I'm catching up fast.

Hi Harvey

Subject: RE: Songwriter's Songwriters
From: GUEST,harvey andrews
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 04:09 PM

I always use Steve Goodman's "Hotel Room" to show how even the most mundane of subjects can make a song that works. I just see him in the room after the gig deciding as an exercise to write about what he sees. We've all been in that room but never thought of it as a song.He did, and that's what made him so good. Look around, write what you see. Not a bad exercise to learn a craft!

Subject: RE: Songwriter's Songwriters
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 03:23 PM

Good choice, Whistle Stop. Even though many of Earle's songs are about people in hard times, and sometimes desperate straits, they are generally not without hope. It just makes the hope more realistic for me.

Jerry

Thanks for the alternate suggestion, El Greko. It would be well worth a try. It depends heavily on who is in the workshop and whether they are willing to do some advance planning before the festival. I tried a songwriter's workshop where I asked people in advance to come prepared to do songs that were written in differrent ways... from the first person, from direct experience, songs that came in a dream, songs written about an actual historical event, etc.
It worked pretty well I think, but I had some wonderful songwriters in the group, including Gordon Bok, who gave some real thought to what they were doing.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Songwriter's Songwriters
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 02:45 PM

Jerry, this is an interesting idea. I also applaud your selection of a Steve Earle tune; I think Steve Earle is one of the best songwriters working today. I would offer another Steve Earle song called Jerusalem. I perform this song regularly as part of my mostly-original set, and I find that it really resonates with my audiences.

Jerusalem is a song about some of the most bitterly contentious issues in the world today, yet it doesn't take sides, nor does it offer simplistic solutions or slogans. It recognizes the common humanity and desire for peace among all of the people of the Middle East, and the rest of the world as well. It acknowledges the sense of hopelessness that so many of us feel about the situation in the Middle East, but it rejects hopelessness, and expresses not only the desire for peace, but the belief that peace will triumph ultimately. It matches a beautiful crafted melody with poignant lyrics and a heartfelt message, and manages to lift up listeners and make them believe that we can fashion a better world out of the anguish we all feel in these times. It doesn't call for one group to triumph over another; it expresses the belief that, in these times especially, nobody wins unless everybody wins.

I don't think I'm a naive person, and I don't think simplifying the issues will make our problems disappear; that's one reason why political songs so often leave me unsatisfied. But the song Jerusalem gives me hope, which is about the best thing that a song can do.

Subject: RE: Songwriter's Songwriters
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 02:22 PM

Jerry, here's an idea:

tunr the thing on its head. Decide first on the 2-3 (or 5-6) aspects of songwriting that you want to promote in the workshop, and then find (others') songs that exemplify those points. Even better, invite the participants to offer suggestions for other good examples from their experience.

Such "aspects" could be (but are not limited to):
- saying a lot with few words (the opening of DR is a good example)
- melody enhancing the lyric
- using "hooks" in lyric and/or tune
- structure of story line (serial, back to front, flashback, static)
- rhyme enhancing the story (especially internal rhyming)
- unusual subject
- unusual viewpoint
- 1st person versus 3rd person
- etc etc

Subject: RE: Songwriter's Songwriters
From: Highlandman
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 02:17 PM

Okay, I'm back with my nomination:
Don't Cry In Your Sleep by Jim McLean
It's in DT here .
Why?
(1) Trad sounding diction consistently all the way through, no modernisms, and (AFAIK) historically accurate...
(2) Telling details: you can hear the children singing, see the flames leaping, feel the defeat and despair of men huddled like cattle...
(3) The song isn't just a snapshot of a single idea, but runs through a series of emotions: from nostalgia to fear and grief, to bitterness and anger at the men who didn't resist (what could they do?), to a glimmer of hope at the end...
(4) And a haunting rhyme scheme that breaks away from the doggerel effect the tune might lead to. Great song, Jim.
-HM

Subject: RE: Songwriter's Songwriters
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 02:02 PM

"Agreed Brucie. I think most of us who tried to step on that ground, would only make fools of ourselves."

Maybe not so, alanabit. Your CD that starts out with the "Castle" song (dang, I can't recall the title) is a work of art with a sense of imagery and wonder. It feels to me in many ways like Steeleye Span's "Sir James the Rose". When I first listened to the song I was asking questions--from a songwriter's perspective--like, "How the hell is he gonna get himself outta THIS?" and BOOM, you did. Every time.

No, you didn't write "DR", but you did write some pretty awesome stuff by anyone's standards.

BM

Subject: RE: Songwriter's Songwriters
From: CStrong
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 01:33 PM

Hugh Prestwood

"The Moon Is still Over her Shoulder"
"That's That"
"The Song Remembers When"
"On the Verge"

Subject: RE: Songwriter's Songwriters
From: 14fret
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 01:03 PM

Randy Newman and/or Guy Clark.

Subject: Lyr Add: THAT'S WHAT MAKES YOU STRONG (Winchester)
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 12:52 PM

Not a new one but this song of Jesse Winchester's is one of my favorites. Anyone who can sum up truths like this is somebody I would like to know. Unless I'd find myself totally intimidated- but I don't think so. This writer is a person who has done some thinking and learning, and loving.

THAT'S WHAT MAKES YOU STRONG
Jesse Winchester

If you love somebody
Then that means you need somebody
And if you need somebody
That's what make you weak
If you know you're weak
Then you know you need someone
Oh, it's a funny thing but
That's what make you strong…….

That's what make you strong
That's what gives you power
That's what lets the meek come sit beside the King
That's what lets us smile in our final hour
That's what moves our souls and
That's what makes us sing

And to trust somebody
Is to be disappointed
It's never what you wanted
And it happens every time
But if you're the trusting kind
This don't even cross your mind
And Oh it's a funny thing but
That's what make you strong……

That's what make you strong
That's what gives you power
That's what lets the meek come sit beside the King
That's what lets us smile in our final hour
That's what moves our souls and
That's what makes us sing

Subject: RE: Songwriter's Songwriters
From: DebC
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 12:32 PM

If I could sing ONE song, it would be Richard Thompson's "Has He Got a Friend For Me". In under three minutes, Thompson managed to capture the loneliness, jealousy and self-pity that a young girl feels at seeing her friend and her boyfriend together. The song resounds for me because I can remember vividly feeling like the girl in the song when I was fifteen.

Deb Cowan

Subject: RE: Songwriter's Songwriters
From: Highlandman
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 12:23 PM

Jerry, that's a great idea -- I know I'd learn more from that format than from a song swap.
As to "The Last Minstrel Show," I think what does it for me is the way the writer shows insider details, what a person in that position would see and feel, without a lot of explanation. Just draws you right into that world, or at least makes you feel like you understand it some.
Now off to do my homework and come up with my own suggestion for the class to discuss. :-)
-HM

Subject: Lyr Add: THE LAST DAY OF MAY (Michael Troy)
From: JedMarum
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 12:09 PM

Here're Michael's lyrics:

The Last Day of May

1. On the hillside of tears
Stones stand like soldiers
All at attention, all in a row
To brave to stay, to young to go

2. Here's to the boys, who all went before me
No honor or glory, could ever repay
The lives that you spent
Just tears in showers, and hands full of flowers
On the last day in May.

Chorus

Though the valley of death, did swallow them whole
God let no soul, die in vain
When the boundaries of peace, get out of control
Let the Angel of Mercy, hold close their names.

3. There's a house, with a wall
With all of the pictures, of all of the children
All of them grown
There's a woman in the house
Who raised all the children
Who could never sleep easy, till all where at home

4. Here's to the mothers, who paid the ultimate price
Made to live out their lives, in grief all the years
Here's to the fathers, who comfort their wife
With nothing to offer, but buckets of tears

Chorus

5. In fields of green pastures
They lie by still water
All at attention, all in a row
Though flesh turns to dust, souls are forever
They restored the order, our cups overflow

Chorus



... and here is a link to a lofi, quick loading MP3. Look at the list of songs and click on track #13 Last Day in May

Subject: RE: Songwriter's Songwriters
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 12:07 PM

Wow! That's a beautiful song, Jed! Never heard it, but I can see why you'd choose it... wonderful choice..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Songwriter's Songwriters
From: JedMarum
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 12:04 PM

having said all that - I have a few songwriters whose work I love and respect and study.

If I was attending your workshop I would bring this song to sing and discuss.

Michael Troy's song, LAST DAY OF MAY stands alone as beautiful and powerful set of images - it is rich in its "tell the personal tale" quality - showing the pictures, without ever telling you the story. He lets the well known biblical expressions tie his Memorial Day lament to expressions our culture has known well for generations ... in the flow of his sparse, image rich lyrics - we hear a deeply personal story, a human story of loss that has touched everyone we know.

Tied together with a respectful, bluesy melody and simple, repetitive chord pattern this work is a masterpiece. It moves audiences deeply, everytime and the first time they hear it.

Subject: RE: Songwriter's Songwriters
From: JedMarum
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 11:52 AM

Great idea Jerry. I played at a Folk Alliance in Austin a few years ago - it was more then 20 minutes into the first day when I realized I hated singer/songwriters ... I am a singer/songwriter!

Of course I'm joking - but like you, I find those songwriter workshops NO FUN. Forcing songwriters to bring to the workshop someone else's song, and to exlain why they value that song really forces everyone to focus on the workshop aspect of a songwriter's workshop - and not on the 'here's a lovely song I wrote' aspect.

I don't mean to belittle the 'lovely song I wrote' thing either. The trouble is, after 10 or 12 of the 'lovely song I wrote' performances, it doesn't matter how good the 13th song is - I can't listen anymore!

Subject: RE: Songwriter's Songwriters
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 11:37 AM

You're right about the other thread, Alanabit. With a subtle difference. Another song I'll add when I have time to pull the lyrics off the album is Devil's Right Hand by Steve Earle. The workshop idea will spur me into learning some great songs that I might not otherwise bother to learn. And some of the songs I'd like to do are songs that I don't "wish I'd written." That'd be like wishing I had climbed Mountain Everest in my skivvies. I don't wish for the impossible. That's the secret of having wishes come true...

No Sian, you don't really have to be a songwriter to post to this thread. I don't think any thread should be exclusive of anyone..
Besides, my apple was getting kinda dusty..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Songwriter's Songwriters
From: sian, west wales
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 11:20 AM

I'm not a songwriter OR a performer, but "Handfull of Songs" would be a good 'un.

Apple-polishing or what??? Go to the head of the class?

siân

Subject: RE: Songwriter's Songwriters
From: alanabit
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 11:14 AM

Agreed Brucie. I think most of us who tried to step on that ground, would only make fools of ourselves. That would be another point to make at Jerry's workshop. Experimentation is good, but it is even better to know what you are good at! I think the greats do.

Subject: RE: Songwriter's Songwriters
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 10:44 AM

Alanabit: Desolation Row is nothing short of WOW and MY GAWD.

Subject: Lyr Add: I'M GONNA MAIL MYSELF TO YOU (W Guthrie)
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 10:43 AM

I'M GONNA MAIL MYSELF TO YOU
(Woody Guthrie)

I'm gonna wrap myself in paper
I'm gonna dot myself with glue
Stick some stamps on top of my head
I'm gonna mail myself to you

I'm gonna tie me up in a red string
I'm gonna tie a blue ribbon too
Climb up inside my mailbox
I'm gonna mail myself to you

When you find me in your mailbox
Cut the string and let me out
Wash the glue from off my fingers
Stick some bubblegum in my mouth

When you find me in your mailbox
Wash the glue from off my head
Fill me up with ice cream sodas
Tuck me into a nice warm bed.

I'm gonna wrap myself in paper
I'm gonna dot myself with glue
Stick some stamps on top of my head
I'm gonna mail myself to you

The story I heard about this song was that Woody wrote it in response to reading/hearing that some European people were trying to mail their children to America (USA). The first I heard the song was by Pete Seeger on his Carnegie Hall album. I have sung the song for kids, young adults and old adults, and it NEVER fails to elicit smiles and laughs. NEVER. I followed Seeger's example and developed an interstitial monologue (talking between the stanzas). Why does it work? I think for many reasons:

A)        It is simple and it addresses the childlike sense in all of us (much the way Paxton's "Marvelous Toy" does), and in the 'style' of Steinbeck, it does so with short, uncomplicated words.

B)        It tells a story from a child's perspective. But, the story is outrageous, and the singer can present it straight faced or not. It still works. I have on occasion burst out laughing at some of the images in the song.

C)        It's hard to screw up.

D)        "Stick some stamps on top of my head"—I sometimes sing this and let the last word just carry on and on and on—take a gasping breath, stop playing for a few seconds and start singing the word head again and go for another 20 seconds. Audiences love it. Adults laugh and little kids just join in.

E)        The melody is within reach of darned near everyone, and the chords are very simple.

F)        It is a song that requires artistry also, because the phrasing is crucial. It gives beginners a chance to play a song and more advanced musicians a chance to 'strut their stuff'. You can make the musical bacup as simple or complicated as ya want; it cannot 'hurt' the song, because the song does the walking and the performer goes along for the ride.

BM

Subject: RE: Songwriter's Songwriters
From: alanabit
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 10:34 AM

I agree with Brucie about Guthrie. He claimed he wrote a song a day. He just wrote so damned much. Even that ten per cent represents a mighty body of work.

Subject: RE: Songwriter's Songwriters
From: alanabit
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 10:31 AM

Well Jerry, we could refer back to that thread,"Songs I wish I had written...". OK, so I am just being mischievous...
To your question. I might want to talk about Bob Dylan's "Desolation Row." It has one of the best opening lines ever. "They're selling post cards of the hanging," is such an evocative image for chaos, perversity, corruption and despair all at the same time. And then the song goes into verse after verse of graphic metaphor. I don't think songs of that sort existed before. The author has stepped onto new ground for a popular songwriter. The rhymes are sharp and the metre is precise. It is also proof that a complex, long song can remain interesting. Most of us are better off not even attempting that sort of thing, but it is a stunning example of what a master of the craft can achieve.

Subject: RE: Songwriter's Songwriters
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 10:21 AM

PS,

I think 90% of what Guthrie wrote is so-so at best. The other 10% pure magic at least.

BM

Subject: RE: Songwriter's Songwriters
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 10:20 AM

Jerry, I am marking this thread and I will get to it in a little while. However, the song I would put forth here is "Mail Myself to You" by Woody Guthrie. Back later.

Subject: Songwriter's Songwriters
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 10:17 AM

With the NOMAD festival right around the corner, I've been trying to come up with some fresh ideas for workshops. I've done eight million (give or take a few) Songwriters workshops and too many of them are just song swaps preceded with the same introduction... "Here's a song I wrote..) As my sons would say, "No Duh!"

So, I'm going to ask to do a workshop Titled Songwriter's Favorite Songwriters. Now there's a twist... where none of the songwriters can introduce the song saying, "Here's a song I wrote.." I'll ask the participants to pick their favorite songs by other songwriters, and try to explain why the song works so well.

When the thought occured to me, there was no question which song I'd want to do first: The Last Minstrel Show. That song is so evocative of the passing of an era that it is like a short movie for me. The melody even captures the feeling of an era long-since passed. There's a tiredness and a wistfulness to the song that draws me into the scenes as if I was there. Now, I have to track down all of the words, as I don't have a recording of it. Have to see if it's in the digitrad here.

O.K. you songwriters... if you were in this workshop, what song or songs of other songwriters would you do, and why?

Let's try not to make this another "list" thread. Ya want to be in my workshop, you gotta give a little thought to what you're doin.' You can't just introduce the song by saying, "Here's a song I didn't write."

Jerry