Origins: Michael Turner's Waltz

Subject: Michael Turner's Waltz
From: Torctgyd
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 11:33 AM

I've been told that Michael Turner's Waltz was in fact written by Mozart. Does anyone know what Mozart called it, or its K number? I'd love to hear an orchestra playing it; it's not a chamber piece is it?

Also are there other 'folk' tunes that were written by famous composers that have drifted into the tradition under a different name?

T

Subject: RE: Michael Turner's Waltz
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 11:43 AM

Beethoven did a piano sonata that sounds remarkably like Bonny Green Garters.

Subject: RE: Michael Turner's Waltz
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 12:14 PM

There's no evidence that the waltz "drifted into tradition" until it was published in Vic Gammon and Annie Loughran's The Sussex Tunebook in 1982, and got taken up by various people. Michael Turner didn't provide a name for it in his MS book, but it's German Dance no.2 (Trio) KV 536 no.2, 1788. Score (pdf) and midi renditions are available at

http://www.folk-network.com/miscellany/index.html

The MS version is a little different, but not much; it looks as if Turner heard it at the local Assembly Rooms or some such, went home and wrote it out from memory; accidentally incorporating a little of the second violin part into the melody line.

Subject: RE: Michael Turner's Waltz
From: Torctgyd
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 05:11 AM

Cheers Malcolm, I might even have this in the bowels of my CD collection.

T

Subject: RE: Michael Turner's Waltz
From: treewind
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 06:51 AM

When we were planning our last album we thought it would be fun to do a track of the Mozart on as many of the right instruments as we could muster (I know players of bassoon, horn and flute), running straight into Michael Turner's Waltz on more "folky" instruments like concertina and melodeon.

It didn't happen - maybe next time....

Anahata

Subject: RE: Origins: Michael Turner's Waltz
From: GUEST,Adrienne from Australia
Date: 26 May 10 - 05:52 PM

I read with interest Malcolm Douglas's explanation of the origins of Michael Turner's Waltz. Does anyone know approximately when (after 1788) the original dance would have been performed in England? As this waltz is also known as the Sussex Waltz, was MT from Sussex and were the Assembly Rooms (where he possibly would have first heard it) in Sussex?

Subject: RE: Origins: Michael Turner's Waltz
From: Vic Smith
Date: 27 May 10 - 06:17 AM

The Assembly rooms would (presumably) have been in Horsham.

Subject: RE: Origins: Michael Turner's Waltz
From: SussexCarole
Date: 27 May 10 - 06:55 AM

The Assembly rooms could have possibly been at Christ's Hospital (school) which is a few miles away from Warnham. I have seen various musical pieces in his manuscripts (W Sussex Record Office)that seem to have come from the school.   I know that, through their bellringing connection, Michael Turner walked to many places around the Warnham area with Henry Burstow from Horsham, so there are many possibilities. There may be reference to the assembly rooms in Burstow's book. Michael Turner was Parish Clerk at Warnham Parish Church and was present at the wedding of my Great Great Grandparents and many other members of our family. I have been told that he is a distant relative of mine but unfortunately I can't find the records to prove the link.
Carole

Subject: RE: Origins: Michael Turner's Waltz
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 27 May 10 - 08:07 AM

I have heard Scan Testers polka in an orchestral setting, can't remember the composer though.It was called something like 'the happy Peasant'.

Subject: RE: Origins: Michael Turner's Waltz
From: bubblyrat
Date: 27 May 10 - 08:57 AM

I was always under the impression that MT was ,or had been,a grave -digger ( like Rod Stewart !!), but perhaps he went up in the world ? Anyway, I had no idea about any Mozart connection,but then nothing surprises me about Sussex Folk !
   
               Roger ( Old Midhurstian and former Cowdray House resident ).

Subject: RE: Origins: Michael Turner's Waltz
From: Vic Smith
Date: 27 May 10 - 10:40 AM

Read the article about Michael Turner by Vic Gammon at http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/turner.htm

The article includes a number of photos of Michael - including one holding his grave-digging spade.

Subject: RE: Origins: Michael Turner's Waltz
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 27 May 10 - 10:48 AM

'Michael Turner's Waltz' is a delightful piece of music which I learned about on an earlier thread. I play it on the piano, and I've played it with friends (flute, harp, guitar...)

When I first played it on the piano, it seemed that the music and my body were having a fight. I realized that I was trying to play it like a waltz, (ONE-two-three ONE-two-three) but it is not a waltz. It is from a time before the waltz was invented, and it wants to put the emphasis in other places, on the end of the measures, rather than always at the beginning. So I decided to relax and let the music tell me what to do. It's a lot more fun that way.

Subject: RE: Origins: Michael Turner's Waltz
From: GUEST,Jocelyn
Date: 05 Sep 15 - 01:03 PM

In brittany & in West France, this waltz is called "Mazurka de la Sarthe". I don't know why! Mozart had never been in Le Mans !

Subject: RE: Origins: Michael Turner's Waltz
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 05 Sep 15 - 01:35 PM

It feels to me like a scandinavian 3/4 tune- my feet immediately 'stamp' ONE-two-THREE-ONE-two-THREE..............

Subject: RE: Origins: Michael Turner's Waltz
From: GMGough
Date: 05 Sep 15 - 03:09 PM

Waltz - Mazurka - but probably not 4/4

A few (many) years ago at Horsham Folk Club, it was a "come all ye"
singer's night and the club was, and still is, very tolerant of
"beginners". I tried Michael Turner's Waltz on the Appalachian
Dulcimer (think I had heard Pete Coe play it).

Well Michael Turner's Waltz is a fairly short piece even if it is played
through twice, so I asked the great and wonderful Harry Mousdell
to recite the words which are on Michael Turner's Gravestone at
Warnham Parish Church, as a prelude to my playing.

I thought the piece went really well. Later a "real" musician very gently
pointed out that given the way I had played the tune I really should have
introduced it as "Michael Turner's March".

Geoff
-----------------------

The words on Michael Turner's Gravestone:

Sacred to the memory of Michael Turner
Clerk and Sexton of this Parish For 50 years
From Jan.17 1830 to Jan.20 1880.
Born May 25.1796. Died Dec.18.1885

His duty done, beneath this stone.
Old Michael lies at rest.
His rustic rig, his song, his jig,
Were ever of the best.

With nodding head the choir he led.
That none should start too soon,
The second too, he sang full true.
His viol played the tune.

And when at last his age had passed.
One hundred less eleven.
With faithful cling to fiddle string.
He sang himself to heaven.

Subject: RE: Origins: Michael Turner's Waltz
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 05 Sep 15 - 03:17 PM

Here in Whitby Ann Coulter plays a most delightful version of the waltz on her concertina. A joy each time I hear it. I suspect she knows a much about the provenance as anyone.

Subject: RE: Origins: Michael Turner's Waltz
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 06 Sep 15 - 12:37 AM

Geoff, when you are a new member and (esp.) if you have an unusual instrument, there is likely to be somebody who will tenderly want to make you feel foolish.

It may be that you put the stresses in the wrong place. It may also be that since the piece is labelled a waltz but is not a waltz, that you played it right and the "real musician" was wrong.

Subject: RE: Origins: Michael Turner's Waltz
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 06 Sep 15 - 12:50 AM

If one of Mozart's German dances can become a folk favorite, why not some others? This page has a number of them.

If nothing else, they will make you appreciate modern printing.

http://imslp.org/wiki/3_German_Dances,_K.605_(Mozart,_Wolfgang_Amadeus)

Subject: RE: Origins: Michael Turner's Waltz
From: GMGough
Date: 06 Sep 15 - 06:24 AM

> there is likely to be somebody who will tenderly want to
> make you feel foolish

I guess it's the way I told the story,
but that is exactly what did NOT happen.

In my experence all singarounds I have attended in Sussex
have been welcoming and supportive.

Subject: RE: Origins: Michael Turner's Waltz
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Sep 15 - 09:11 AM

When Sheila & I are present at a session and this tune starts (usually to her request) we have to Waltz, unless there is enough room then we might Maurka. Howsoever played I have never failed to dance to it. Waltz is how it is played in the UK. IMNSHO

Subject: RE: Origins: Michael Turner's Waltz
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 07 Sep 15 - 06:32 AM

Carl Maria von Weber has contributed The Huntsman's Chorus from his opera Der Freischütz (The Marksman).

"It premiered on 18 June 1821 at the Schauspielhaus Berlin. The plot is based on the German folk legend of the Freischütz and many of its tunes were inspired by German folk music."

Subject: RE: Origins: Michael Turner's Waltz
From: GUEST,Jean-Pierre Wilmotte (Namur, Belgium)
Date: 30 Jul 17 - 11:39 AM

In France as well as in Belgium, where this tune is also popular - we consider it as a mazurka. We call it "Mazurka sarthoise". A friend of mine has also provided me with two verses and a chorus that can be sung on this fine melody. This tune was passsed on to us by a Breton musician and singer, Alain Desnos, many years ago. Here are the words :

Si l'amour prenait racine
J'en planterais dans mon jardin
J'en planterais si long si large
Que j'en donnerais à mes voisins.

Je bois à la santé du Prince
Je bois à la santé du Roy
À la santé de nos maîtresses
Que ceux qui n'en n'ont pas s'en prennent.

Chorus :

Vive l'amour aimons toujours
Vive l'amour dès le matin
Les baisers dans les vigno-obles
Et l'amour dès le matin (bis)

Subject: RE: Origins: Michael Turner's Waltz
From: Mr Red
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 09:13 AM

translation (the best that Google can do) which actaully looks reasonable. There must be a translation elsewhere that Goggle is picking up.

If love took root
I would plant it in my garden
I would plant so long so wide
That I would give it to my neighbours.

I drink to the health of the Prince
I drink to the health of Roy
To the health of our mistresses
Let those who do not take it.

Chorus:

Long live love still love
Long live love in the morning
The kisses in the vineyards
And love in the morning (bis)

Subject: RE: Origins: Michael Turner's Waltz
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 08:51 PM

The above link doesn't work but the Mudcat thread is called "Origins: Michael Turner's Waltz" if you want to find it

Subject: RE: Origins: Michael Turner's Waltz
From: BobL
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 04:23 AM

Geoff, that is a recursive reference!

BTW does anybody besides me hear similarities between MTW and "Green Hills of Tyrol" (by Rossini, apparently)?