styles of singing?

Subject: styles of singing?
From: GUEST,songsmith
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 10:20 PM

English, Irish, Scottish styles of singing traditional songs.
We have English singing Irish - scottish ballads. Irish singing Scottish - English ballads. Scottish singing Irish - English ballads and Americans singing Irish, English and Scottish ballads.
'Some' can do it well, but only a few can pull it off!
Is this a 'bench mark' as to where we should tread?
A test of a singer's adaption to the song in question, or should singers (from wherever they 'hail' from) chouse their songs more carefully?
Lately I have heard a mixed batch of singers sing ballads from various places (NOT within their own boundries) and obviously they have not put a lot of thought into their choice of song!
Renowned singers (Martin Carthy to mention one - and he's not alone) not pronouncing town names correctly. If a singer is to give a rendition of a ballad surely they should research dialects etc.
In England, Ireland (North and South) and Scotland we have different dialects as we move across each country from County to County,town to town, and songs from each area lend to the 'townlands' they were composed in but sound out of context anywhere else. I know songs travel and have done so for hundreds of years but as of late singers seem to be trying to sing obscure songs from 'out of the way' places to be 'different' and don't seem to get it together!
I know it's stupid for an English singer (as an example) to try an sing a song in the same dialect as a County Antrim (East Ireland) singer AS the song loses a lot of its content. Maybe I'm alone in thinking this or too much of a perfectionist, has anyone else any feelings on this?
       songsmith.

Subject: RE: styles of singing?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 11:42 PM

On the whole, I agree with you; it's a mistake to ape pronounciation that doesn't come naturally (and especially to try to sing songs in languages or dialects you don't understand). The "instant gratification" people don't agree, of course: "You have no right to tell me what to do", and other tedious stuff of that sort.

Mind you, I rather think that Martin Carthy's "mispronounciations" of town names, if such they are, probably reflect the way they were pronounced by his sources and may be perfectly legitimate. He's generally quite careful about such things. Specify a few examples and I'll give you a considered opinion.

Subject: RE: styles of singing?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 02:34 AM

It's impossible to please all the people all the time and it's impossible to genuinely reflect language changes when a song can be anything between 200 years and 200 days old.

Pronounciation, like all language, changes over the years, and across dialects. I could write a song about Puncknowle and you'd all sing it as Punk Noel... when really it's Punnel. Same as I first saw Belvoir and thought it was Bell Vwore, rather than Beaver. Half the inhabitants of Shrewsbury don't know whether it's Shrews bury or Shroes berry.....

As Malcolm, I also agree about singing songs in imitation accents, I don't like it and I try not to do it. Trouble is, I've got one song that just does it on it's own!

As an aside - I'm a Dorset person, born and bred, family been there for at least 250 years - I sang 'Linden Lea' by Dorset poet William Barnes, in dialect at one club and got told in no uncertain terms that I was doing a silly accent and should stop it!

It doesn't matter how or what you sing, it's going to annoy someone somewhere, so the best thing to do is do your best and please yourself. If you are pleased with your performance and happy with your material, then no-one else really matters.

LTS

Subject: RE: styles of singing?
From: GUEST,songsmith
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 07:14 AM

I do agree, I wasn't meaning that when I said, singers should research the dialect, that they should copy the dialect when singing a song from that particular region. It's just when someone obviously learns a song from a book and possibly hasn't heard the place names pronounced before, it takes away from the song and the singer.
I heard a singer a few years ago singing in Forkhill (Slievegullion Singing Weekend) and I enjoyed the song, I picked up from his accent that he was from Dublin. After he finished I told him I enjoyed the song, only to hear a broad Belfast accent thank me. He later sang a Clare song in a Clare dialect.
Malcolm, one song (the name eludes me at present) Martin Carthy sings,he pronounces the town of Ballymoney as 'Bally-moanie'
I will find the name of the song and add it later.
Don't get me wrong, I love Martin Carthy singing, I don't mean to slight him or his singing.
    songsmith

Subject: RE: styles of singing?
From: GUEST,Lighter at work
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 08:49 AM

The question of singing in an assumed accent has no final answer because, as several people have come close to saying, the perception of "authenticity" depends entirely on who's listening. I used to think Ewan MacColl's Scottish pronunciations were absolutely authentic, but now I know that some Scots, at least, find them grating. Others don't, but still recognize that he wasn't "from around here." Americans, on the other hand, easily accept them - and worse.

The same is true of Southern Appalachian pronunciations. This distinctive accent (and variations of it) is very hard to imitate, but people who've never had much exposure to the real thing have fairly undemanding standards.

Ideally one should always sing in one's own voice, but if you really want to reproduce the song as you heard it, give it a try. Just pick your audience very carefully. Rule of thumb: If you're not Australian, don't sing Strine in Oz.

Subject: RE: styles of singing?
From: Frankham
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 09:10 AM

Traveling through the south of Ireland, we ran into a little town named Snyme. We asked at a local store how you pronounce the name. The proprietor said "Well sure it's sneem!" Not quite satisfied we took our question to the other side of town and asked another store owner how to pronounce the name of his town. "Well, over here we call it snime." Moral:

So you say "sneem" and I'll say "snime",
Let's call the whole thing off. (apologies to Ira)

Frank

Subject: RE: styles of singing?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 10:18 AM

Isn't this the reason for the short-lived club rule about only singing songs from your own area?

Subject: RE: styles of singing?
From: Stephen R.
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 04:39 PM

Singing songs only from your own area would solve the problem, I suppose, but might be a bit limiting if you don't come from a particularly song-rich place.

I agree in principle about "putting on" accents, but I find it hard to put into practice if I have consistently heard the song sung that way, that is, in a variety of English substantially different from mine. Somehow the dialect seems to be an integral part of it.

Ewan MacColl's Scots may irritate some other Scots, but that is not necessarily a sign of inauthenticity. Scots is not a uniform thing at all. Burns's Ayrshire dialect has "yin" for "one," where Lothian has "ane." This provides Burns with some rhymes that he would not have otherwise, while depriving him of others. The "Doric" of the northeast differs a good deal from other varieties of Scots. No one not from Dundee can understand anyone from Dundee. And so on.

If someone can pull off doing a song with an Ulster accent and the next one with a County Clare accent, why, more power to him-or-her, say I. I wish I could do that.

Being a navy brat, I don't really have a regional accent that can be pinned down, so I sound a bit odd everywhere. Maybe that's an advantage in some contexts . . . .

Stephen

Subject: RE: styles of singing?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 09:18 PM

songsmith,

If you prefer to look at the singing of traditional songs as an endeaver requiring research and preparation, more power to you.

As for me, I sing a song simply because I like it. Almost all my material has human (as opposed to paper) sources. As far as I can tell, that's why they sing/sang their songs.

Maggie Hammons Parker obviously didn't do her homework if she sings about "Edinsburrows town". Can't say that I care.

Subject: RE: styles of singing?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 09:19 PM

OOPS! the preceding was from me.

Subject: RE: styles of singing?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 06:29 AM

Despite being thought of one of them singer/songwriter types, I sing far more traditional music than my own. Other than two or three Australian songs, the rest are all from the U.S. There is no "U.S."
or "American" accent to sing in, and while there are regional accents and some differences in the way place names and towns are pronounced, this control is so mobile that if you go to Maine and walk in a store, you may well talk to someone from Pennsylvania. It's not that there aren't any regional accents but it's certainly not as pronounced as in Britain. I live in Connecticut, but grew up in Wisconsin and lived for several years in New York City. My wife was born and spent her first few years of her life in Georgia, grew up in Brooklyn and now lives here in Connecticut.

Education also tends to homogenize accents and pronounciations.

Whether I'm singing a song recorded by Clarence Ashley, Peg Leg Howell, Mississippi John Hurt, Charlie Poole or Almeda Riddle, it feels natural singing with my own mongrel accent. I don't feel any need to sound "black" on blues songs or the black gospel that I sing.
I sing songs, not accents.

Now, if I was singing something strongly identified with a British or Scottish accent, I'd mess it up one way or the other. If I tried to do a dialect, it would sound phoney as a three dollar bill, and if I sang it naturally, it would lose a lot of the character of the song.

That's why I stick with what at least to me sounds alright singing in my natural voice.

Jerry

Subject: RE: styles of singing?
From: GUEST,songsmith
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 10:57 AM

I agree that it would be an ideal thing to sing in your own style and in the style of where you 'hail' from.    BUT...
What if a singer moved into a new area, should he/she adopt the songs from that area in the local style or keep to their own style from where they first came from?
(jeezas this is getting confusing)

songsmith

Subject: RE: styles of singing?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 11:25 AM

songsmith: I was born in Yorkshire, lived in Newcastle for seven years, then North Kent for another five and have now lived on the North Kent/South London border for more than 15 years. If I am singing a song from any of those areas I am quite happy for my accent to become more Geordie, or whatever, and if the rhyme, for example, depends on the dialect pronunciation I will certainly stick to it.

Songs from other areas are more of a problem and if I sang a Dorset song, for example, I'd always use my natural accent (mongrel though it is!)

Subject: RE: styles of singing?
From: Polly Squeezebox
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 12:21 PM

I was born in Wiltshire, moved at three weeks to Yorkshire - where all my mother's family were. Then moved back to Wiltshire at the age of four. Singing 'Three Score and Ten' means a lot to me as an uncle was skipper of the Scarborough lifeboat. I also enjoy singing other songs of that area But I tend to WRITE songs about my local Wiltshire area and customs. I think that, for me, it is far more important to have a feeling for the content of the song, and maybe be able to 'own' and communicate the feeling that the song tries to engender as opposed to trying to emulate the orignal accent that the song might have been sung in.

Polly

Subject: RE: styles of singing?
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 02:33 PM

The answer to Frankham´s mystery is that, not only were the shops at opposite ends of the town - they were on opposite sides of the local linguistic divide!

Regards

Subject: RE: styles of singing?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 27 Jun 05 - 12:56 PM

If someone moves to a new area, s/he should adopt the local style only if the goal is to annoy the locals. In WV (the states) you don't use the "h" word and you don't try to sound like a local unless you were born and raised there.

Subject: RE: styles of singing?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 27 Jun 05 - 03:07 PM

This must be a much more critical issue in the UK than in the US.

We Americans got many of our songs from the Old World and we've always sung 'em however we liked, consciously or unconsciously bringing new and different accents and pronunciations into play. Most of us still feel that we're allowed to sing any damn thing we like, in any manner that suits us, and we generally allow each other the same latitiude.

As I've said many times before, some styles (or genres or subgenres or whatever) of song seem to require their own appropriate "accents" or basic pronunciation styles. I don't think it's "phony" or even irritating for a non-native singer to take a shot at a song whose source is outside the singer's personal experience, and to make an effort to approximate the song's native pronunciation style ~ I'll make my own judgement about how successfully the individual interprets the song.

While there are many differences, some of them quite obvious, among the accents of black and white southerners and among residents of different localities, there is a more-or-less common "blues accent" whose most basic characteristics are employed ~ often quite well ~ by singers of various races and nationalities, including plenty of white guys from England.

I don't object to Mick Jagger, Robert Plant, Eric Clapton, etc., employing an "accent" that is completely foreign to their everyday speaking voices, and that is not a totally authentic imitation of every detail of any particular accent of a specific locale in the American South. Their vocals, like those of any reasonably competent white blues singer, are (generally) appropriate to the material, as long as they convey honest self-expression more strongly than they betray an effort to imitate some foreign accent.

By the same token, I think it's entirely OK for an American singing Irish, Scots, or English songs to employ some kind of "generic" accent appropriate to the song's origin ~ at least to avoid the most jarring American pronunciations that would sound out-of-context. Just as in the case of the British blues singers cited above, an American (or any non-native) should be able to sing ballads from any Celtic or British tradition in a voice that combines his/her natural self-expression with a basic sense of the vowel and consonant sounds that are appropriate to the material.

I'm reminded of a fellow I head live on the radio last week, a Balinese (!) blues artist passing through New Orleans. He was a terrific guitar player and owner of a vintage steel-body National; he performed a few Robert Johnson classics, and the playing was excellent while the vocals were, well, strange. He hit the notes perfectly well, but his pronunciation ~ very "King's-English" British in style, although coming from the mouth of a person native to a former Dutch colony ~ was so jarring, seemed so out of context, that it really detracted from my enjoyment of the song. A little bit of skillful putting-on of an accent would have been welcome.

Subject: RE: styles of singing?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 01:14 AM

The duo Chas and Dave used to sing songs in American accents, but would astonish people as soon as they started to talk, with their London accents. In the end they thought, 'why should we sing in an accent that isn't ours?' so they started singing in their own. Turns out it was a nice gimmick and it got noticed. They got popular and the rest is history. With a few cleverly penned songs to exploit the 'Cockney' accents, they went on to fame and fortune.

LTS

Subject: RE: styles of singing?
From: GUEST,Sidewinder.
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 11:26 AM

C'est La Vie ma petite pois -I'm digging into "Cajun" at the moment so I will probably be singing "Norwegian Wood" in pigeon french at the next cowtow.

Avante.

Sidewinder.

Subject: RE: styles of singing?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 11:34 AM

Well Dylan in schoolirl French worked for Fairport, so why not.

Subject: RE: styles of singing?
From: GUEST,Sidewinder.
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 11:58 AM

If only I had a voice like Sandy Denny -I'd do "Blackbird" and "Hey Jude" as encores.

Regards.

Sidewinder.(voice like an angel chewing tar through a wrought iron gate).

Subject: RE: styles of singing?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 12:36 PM

In which case perhaps you are not unlike Ronnie Drew.

Subject: RE: styles of singing?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 02:52 PM

From an earlier message,

"one song (the name eludes me at present) Martin Carthy sings,he pronounces the town of Ballymoney as 'Bally-moanie'
I will find the name of the song and add it later."

I'm not aware of Martin Carthy singing this, but Nic Jones certainly sings Ballymoney as 'Bally-moanie' in "Courting is a Pleasure", which is on Penguin Eggs. Nic learned the words from a book and didn't know how the name was pronounced, so he just sang it as it seemed best to fit the tune. When people subsequently asked him about the pronunciation of it (as of course they did) he would always say he learnt it off a tape of some old Irish singer, he couldn't remember the name...Nic always did enjoy winding people up.

Maggie

Subject: RE: styles of singing?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 03:04 PM

I also understand he was pretty forgetful.

Subject: RE: styles of singing?
From: rumgumption
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 03:36 PM

I think that where many people get themselves into trouble is in trying to reproduce accents with more fidelity than they can pull off.

For example, if an American has a good grasp of the basic attributes of Scots pronunciation (e.g., vowels, intonation) I see nothing wrong with using this knowledge in singing Scottish material; in fact, I can't imagine trying to sing a Scots song in most US regional accents.

On the flip side, using distinctive features from both Glasgow and Skye at once--or worse, Glasgow and Belfast--would be humorous at best, to anyone who knows the difference. (Two cents' worth from a Canadian of Scots extraction.)

Subject: RE: styles of singing?
From: GUEST,songsmith
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 05:51 AM

I remember the first weekend arranged to promote the 'Ulster-Scots'
language (I still class it as a dialect NOT a language, but who am I to say? maybe this could be another thread)and a very refined lady with a VERY refined 'awfully nice' accent (quite posh to say the least)was reading a passage from a book, in Ulster-Scots.
This was to show the folk how these word were to be pronounced, a friend of mine from Larne, Co Antrim (a natural Ulster-Scots speaker)stood in the company and corrected her and was told "Now that dialect you are using is not bad, BUT you need to practice more to perfect it." So I suppose it makes you wonder, who is the pupil and who is the teacher?
So then is it acceptable to make 'perfect' a dialect for each area you learn a song from and sing it as one of the locals and then sing in a different dialect,a song from yet again another area?

songsmith

Subject: RE: styles of singing?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 05:55 AM

The rhythm is just as important to get it right as anything.

Subject: RE: styles of singing?
From: Dave Earl
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 03:40 PM

Well I am not sure how I sound and as someone else has said "I don't belive I have an accent".

I was born in London, moved to Sussex,then Bristol,Belfast and now back in Sussex. I believe I can still do "London" songs but I don't deliberately sing in any other accent/dialect. Howvever my wonderings may have resulted in my use of various phrases and slang terms from places other than my birthplace and (my other half tells me)occasionally somewhat strange pronunciations.

The point is that what I do is the result of the way my life has run and not any deliberate action. Liz the Squeek has heard me sing many songs so maybe she can say whether the way I sound when I sing comes across in any particular way.

Dave Earl

Subject: RE: styles of singing?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 04:30 PM

Breton - You just sound like a bloke who's been around a bit and had a bloody good time with it!

Le Scaramouche - Nic's forgetfullness didn't come until after the accident... most of his long term memory was wiped completely and his short term memory affected badly, but then, the guy was lucky to survive at all. Before the accident, he was a bigger wind up merchant than most and could beat Jeremy Beadle for some of the pranks he pulled.

LTS

Subject: RE: styles of singing?
From: Dave Earl
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 05:14 PM

Thanks Liz

Dave Earl