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BS: No religion in a religious school?

Pogo 25 Jun 05 - 03:13 PM
Clinton Hammond 25 Jun 05 - 03:20 PM
artbrooks 25 Jun 05 - 03:34 PM
CarolC 25 Jun 05 - 03:36 PM
Sorcha 25 Jun 05 - 03:40 PM
Clinton Hammond 25 Jun 05 - 03:43 PM
Don Firth 25 Jun 05 - 03:52 PM
gnu 25 Jun 05 - 04:17 PM
Pogo 25 Jun 05 - 06:03 PM
John Hardly 25 Jun 05 - 06:15 PM
jpk 25 Jun 05 - 06:16 PM
jpk 25 Jun 05 - 06:18 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jun 05 - 06:30 PM
GUEST,Rapaire 25 Jun 05 - 06:36 PM
Clinton Hammond 25 Jun 05 - 07:03 PM
gnu 25 Jun 05 - 07:12 PM
John Hardly 25 Jun 05 - 07:55 PM
gnu 25 Jun 05 - 08:02 PM
Pogo 25 Jun 05 - 10:34 PM
LadyJean 25 Jun 05 - 10:48 PM
CarolC 25 Jun 05 - 11:51 PM
Liz the Squeak 26 Jun 05 - 03:36 AM
CarolC 26 Jun 05 - 11:37 AM
Clinton Hammond 26 Jun 05 - 12:38 PM
Pogo 26 Jun 05 - 04:54 PM
CarolC 26 Jun 05 - 05:02 PM
Pogo 26 Jun 05 - 05:19 PM
Sorcha 26 Jun 05 - 05:21 PM
Terry K 26 Jun 05 - 05:40 PM
John O'L 26 Jun 05 - 06:19 PM
CarolC 26 Jun 05 - 06:33 PM
Pogo 26 Jun 05 - 11:45 PM
belter 27 Jun 05 - 05:08 PM
jpk 27 Jun 05 - 05:26 PM
Jimmy C 27 Jun 05 - 11:32 PM
JennyO 28 Jun 05 - 07:58 AM
Wolfgang 28 Jun 05 - 08:22 AM
Susan of DT 28 Jun 05 - 12:36 PM
jpk 28 Jun 05 - 06:34 PM
Uncle_DaveO 29 Jun 05 - 03:10 PM
jpk 29 Jun 05 - 05:13 PM
LadyJean 30 Jun 05 - 01:11 AM
GUEST,M.Ted 30 Jun 05 - 03:46 AM
GUEST 30 Jun 05 - 05:26 PM
GUEST,jpk 30 Jun 05 - 05:27 PM
GUEST 30 Jun 05 - 05:51 PM

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Subject: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: Pogo
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 03:13 PM

so here's the thing...

I work in a private school/day care which is a faith-based school, not any religion in particular like a Presbyterian school or Catholic school. We're really kind of non-denominational but are Christian and those who put their children in the daycare are made aware of that right from the beginning. We'll say prayers before eating, we'll sing Bible songs along with the other songs, that kind of stuff. Well a parent recently came to my boss and asked that her child (who has been in this school a number of years without any previous problems) be taken out of the classroom anytime prayers, songs, bible stories etc. are going on. The parent is in her own words non-religious and takes offense at her child being exposed to anything that has to do with Christianity.

It's been really difficult for us to figure out how to resolve it to the satisfaction of both parties involved and it's sort of got me pondering the whole situation anyways because it is one that's been popping up a lot lately. So I thought I'd throw it up here for discussion.

My opinions on this is, personally if you don't want a child exposed to Christian teachings then don't put her or him in a private school that is openly based on such teachings to begin with and expect them to accommedate you. Simple as that.

It's not even so much about Atheist vs. Christian kind of a thing in my opinion. We also have three Jehovah Witnesses in our school who do not participate in pledging to the flag or holiday celebrations but the kids are very mature about it, they're never made to feel singled out about their faith. It's just accepted that they believe a certain way, they have never been made to feel embarassed about sticking to those beliefs and everyone accepts this and has had no problem with it.

I think it boils down to more of a matter of pushing beliefs on other people, expecting them to cater to your personal beliefs and that I don't accept no matter what creed you follow. That irritates me. It somehow sends the message that you are wrong or misguided for believing in something different from myself and that you have to believe how I believe. I have no problem with exposure to a variety of religions and schools of thought I think in fact that encourages a well-rounded individual. I'm also an art teacher for the school side and among other things I taught last year we also learned about Chinese culture and various philosophies which I very much enjoyed discussing with the kids about.

Anyways one of the compromises I suggested was to include more exposure to various religions in the regular school curriculum. But what are your thoughts on it?


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 03:20 PM

"if you don't want a child exposed to Christian teachings then don't put her or him in a private school that is openly based on such teachings"

It's sad that even that small a stretch of logic seems to elude such a BIG section of the population...

"how to resolve it to the satisfaction of both parties involved"
If the parent doesn't like what you folks do, why is the child there? I'd tell the parent to enjoy the fullest functioning of the egress...


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 03:34 PM

As another non-religious person, I'd have to agree with CH. Let them go elsewhere.

Presbyterian or Catholic are varieties of Christian, of course, not separate religions, and it sounds as if the Christian religion is deeply integrated in your school's programs. I'd wonder if you receive/accept any government funding? That would be, IMHO, entirely inappropriate.


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 03:36 PM

I agree with you, Pogo. If people want to put their kids in a school that is based on religon, they should accept religion as a part of the experience. That said, I also think that religion should be kept out of the public schools.


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: Sorcha
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 03:40 PM

CH and art nailed it. Say, Well we are sorry to see you go. We'll miss you.


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 03:43 PM

"We'll miss you."

Well... with every bullet so far... but with this new laser-sight....

,-)


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 03:52 PM

I would say don't accomodate in this situation. The parent is off-base. The decision as to whether to take the child out of the school or not is up to the parent. If they send their child to a church or to a religious school, the child is more than likely going to hear some religious talk. If the parent doesn't want their children to hear religious talk, they shouldn't send them to a church or a religious school in the first place. End of story.

That's sort of like going to an ice cream parlor and bitching about the menu choices because they're lactose intolerant. Why did they come in in the first place?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: gnu
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 04:17 PM

If I had chilluns, I would seek out a Frisbeetyrian Day Care... you know... where the basic tenant is that, when you die, your soul goes up on the roof and you can't get it down.


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: Pogo
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 06:03 PM

{O) Frisbeetyrian...I like that one, gnu hehe

It's not so much that the mother wants her taken out entirely but put in another room whenever there is any kind of religiously oriented activities. One of the the concerns my boss raised was that this would in fact have an opposite effect and make the child feel more singled out. The child's three.

I dunno. I guess it's kind of like even if you personally don't think a particular belief to be true should a child not be exposed to it then? Is that broadening the child's understanding of the world or narrowing it? It's tricky. Because ultimately a parent has the right to raise the child as they see fit and that right must be respected, but teachers also play their part in educating a child as well so they have their say in things as well.

Art, no funding or anything like that as far as I know.

CarolC I'd agree with you in a way. It's kind of the whole seperation of church and state debate. Religion and politics should never mix but regardless there will be politicians who are defined by their religion. Same with students. They are defined by their personal beliefs they bring with them to school from all different backgrounds but why not integrate that variety into the school rather?


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: John Hardly
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 06:15 PM

"Because ultimately a parent has the right to raise the child as they see fit and that right must be respected...

Sorry, but I'm missing where there is even an issue. Is the woman being forced to send her child to this school?

...and if she's choosing to send the child to this school because it is scholastically superior -- shouldn't the school be allowed to maintain that its superiority lies in the totality of the whats and whys it teaches?

In the words of Frank Barone: HOLY CRAP!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: jpk
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 06:16 PM

????


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: jpk
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 06:18 PM

my wife[bless her soul]went to a catholic school,never studied rel once,worse they did was wear uniforms twice a week.


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 06:30 PM

Catholics and Protestants both essentially the same religion? True enough. But then that is also true of Christianity, Judaism and Islam, more especially the latter two.


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: GUEST,Rapaire
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 06:36 PM

Odd. I went to Catholic schools and we studied religion (daily) but never wore uniforms.

But if the parent doesnt' want the kid exposed to what the school openly states it teaches, let 'em go elsewhere. Moreover, where the money for the school comes from is not an issue. The school is not hiding its affliation or basis for existence; if the government (for example) supplies some of the money AND DOES NOT PUT RESTRICTIONS UPON ITS USE, the parent has, in my opinion, no gripe.

Let 'em walk.


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 07:03 PM

I think that the concept of a religious education is laughably the best oxymoron I've ever heard...


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: gnu
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 07:12 PM

You got that right, Clint.


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: John Hardly
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 07:55 PM

I went to, and now my nephews and neices attend a religious school in a major US city. In that city (population 1,000,000+), this school ranks #2 scholastically. #1 ranking school is also a religious school.

I fail to see the oxymoron.


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: gnu
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 08:02 PM

I thought Clint was referring to the religious side of education... not the scholastics.


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: Pogo
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 10:34 PM

Nah no issue really in my opinion either John but it just got me pondering y'see :)


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: LadyJean
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 10:48 PM

I don't know enough about the school How many options does this parent have? Is this a small town, where there are only a few options, or is this a large city, where she has many options. Why has she suddenly made this request. Have you got a new teacher who has told this child that bad little boys and girls burn in hell forever? Has the parent had a bad experience with Christians recently, an insensitive pastor, or a family member who calls herself a Christian and acts in a manner that would shame a Satanist?
You might ask the parent why she doesn't want her child exposed to Christianity. This could lead to a discussion and a reasonable solution.


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 11:51 PM

I understand what you're saying, Pogo (re: your response to my post). I agree that diversity is a good thing, including religious diversity, if it is in the form of students being whatever religion they are. But not in the form of any kind of official sanction of any particular religious beliefs or practices by the school itself... if it is a public school. That's my opinion anyway.

I went to a parochial school in the first grade, not for religious reasons, but for practical ones. It certainly didn't harm me, and the quality of education I got was probably about the same as when I went to public school. But it was a choice that my parents made, not one that was made for them. There should always be an option available for parents who want their children to be educated in a religious setting. But I also think there should always be an option available for parents who want their children to be educated in a setting that is strictly secular in the way it is administered.


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 03:36 AM

Is this from a place that claims to be one nation under God?

Sheesh!!!

She enrolled the child in the school knowing full well what sort of school it was?

She should maybe look for another school!

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 11:37 AM

No. We don't claim to be "one nation under God". Some people added that to our pledge of allegiance (to the flag) during the commie hunting days in the mid-1900s.


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 12:38 PM

"Is this from a place that claims to be one nation under God?"

Ya, but it's also the same place that was founded by slave owners, who wanted to be free from oppression, so...

Being 'taught' by 'religion', in my book, seems a lot like learning to cook at McDonalds...

"ask the parent why she doesn't want her child exposed to Christianity"
I think that's a question that answers itself...


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: Pogo
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 04:54 PM

I'm all for discussing it. Got nothing against the mother or the way she wants to raise her child *shrug* though this suddenly coming up is a bit puzzling. As far as I know, it's not a fire-and-brimstone teacher that's triggered it. I've sat in on group time in the class before. Mostly little kid's bible songs, Zaccheus, the B-I-B-L-E etc, some simplified and pretty non-partial discussion of bible stories like Noah's ark or Daniel in the lion's den and a short prayer before eating. It's three year olds after all you can't get into too complicated discussions at that age.

I guess though I take the attitude of why should being exposed to a particular religion (not having it crammed down their throats of course...don't agree with that) bother anyone if they don't believe in it? Atheism doesn't particularly offend me, though I don't believe in it. I think I'd rather not shelter my kid from knowing about religious beliefs early on since he or she'll grow up and have friends from various religious and non-religious backgrounds anyways. I look at it as more along the lines of learning about various cultures, it helps the child be more aware of the diversity of the world around them. And at that age I'd like to see a child exposed to the positive aspects of various beliefs first since they'll learn soon enough about the negatives when they grow older and are able to understand things better.


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 05:02 PM

How do you feel about exposing them to Wicca, Paganism, Shamanism, Voodoo, and also all of the various indigenous religions from around the world so they will have a more complete exposure to the world's religions?


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: Pogo
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 05:19 PM

This may sound odd but I wouldn't really care :) it's just there's no Wiccan, Pagan, Voodoo, Shamanism that is that prevalent around our section of the bible belt. I think I would prefer to stick pretty much with the main religions, Christianity, Buddhism, Islam and the like. Not so much because I'd want to be exclusive but just because it's a day care and you have to keep things basic with kids under five. But I would also enjoy discussing the beliefs of Native American, Asian and various ancient European cultures. It depends I guess on how much kids of various ages could comprehend and what you would feel would be suitable to discuss with children in school.

I did meet a Wiccan once but that was in college. She paid me the nicest compliment, said I was the first christian who didn't tell her I was going to hell for what she believed in. And I don't. Granted Wiccan ain't my thing but it's all good.


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 05:21 PM

Carol, I feel FINE about that! But a 'denomination based' school is NOT going to do that....also, I think that sort of thing should come AFTER an Education in the basics, and the child should be old enough to make intelligent choices.


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: Terry K
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 05:40 PM

It should be a crime to brainwash children into any kind of stuff that patently isn't true. Being subjected to influential people who believe that their "faith" can blatantly fly in the face of common sense is what has caused most of the world's problems since around the year 300 AD (+ or -).

If I was the parent involved I wouldn't need any telling to get the child the hell out of there before the well-meaning twats destroyed him/her for life.


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: John O'L
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 06:19 PM

We live in a society which allows parents the freedom to pass their neuroses on to their children. Would you really have it any other way?
While it is obviously a weakness it is also a strength, since it is not only neuroses which are passed on. Consider for example, the Bush and Kennedy dynasties. Speaking of which, such freedom may not be with us for long. Good news for Terry K it would seem.


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 06:33 PM

You probably have them in your part of the bible belt, Pogo, but they're probably keeping a very low profile so as not to be condemed to hell by less enlightened people than you.

;-)

(Spoken as a non-Christian who has lived in various parts of the bible belt for most of the last thirty years.)


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: Pogo
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 11:45 PM

Most likely :) more's the pity...thank ya though.

Terry K. the thing is I might remind you...this is a private school and the mother was made aware of the prevalance of Christianity in the curriculum in the school from the beginning and chose to enroll her child anyways. Why I have no idea *shrugs* What she teaches to her child in the privacy of her home is her business indeed.

Just my opinion of course but I'm somehow doubtful that learning to sing " Jesus Loves Me " is going to brainwash any child into becoming a fanatical Christian pyschopath anymore than singing " Three Little Fishies In A Itty Bitty Pool " is likely to make them a obsessive-compulsive angler. You might as well say that what the child is being taught at home by the parent and the secular education the child recieves in school is also " brainwashing " It's all being presented as the indispensable truth isn't it?

Don't knock someone else's religion. Otherwise that puts one on the same level of those fire-breathing Christians who say all atheists are doomed to hell. Those who are secure in their own beliefs should not feel threatened by someone else's beliefs. That's my thoughts on it anyways, but we're digressing a bit I think ^_^


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: belter
Date: 27 Jun 05 - 05:08 PM

Some interesting points have come up hear. I have to wonder if the father is involved in this story some how. Could he have selected the school w/o the mother's informed consent for example?

On the subject of exposing children to a religion, do you mean informing them what various religions believe in a unbiased way, or do you mean giving one or more religions a chance to proselytize them? There is a world of difference in my book. A while back a pagan friend was talking about sending her kids to Sunday school just because she wants them to understand the culture we live in. Which, lets face it, is largely christian. I suggested that there must be some way to educate w/o indoctrinating.

Keep in mind that this is a private school. The subject makes it sound like there is a danger of law suites that could make running a religious private school into a legal mine field. I think this would be as wrong as it would be if public schools were allowed to force a religion on student. There has to be free choice.

If I had children, I'd like to be able to send them to an atheist school, were they could learn about all sorts of religions w/o having it shoved down their throat, & study ethics that don't rely on or blame some imaginary being. I know or no such school.


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: jpk
Date: 27 Jun 05 - 05:26 PM

if ya don't like it,don't send them there,if it ain't public don't pay for it[gotta pay public weather you want to or not].do the home school thing an teach em as you see fit. mgb and hagd.


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: Jimmy C
Date: 27 Jun 05 - 11:32 PM

Tell her to take the child to another school - end of story.

She knew it was a religous school, she was not forced to send the child there, or maybe she knew it was a christian oriented school and did it anyway, knowing that she would have something to complain about in a short while. A little bit like fighting from the inside.

It is strange though that many people who do believe in a God or some higher diety and who do not want religion as any part of their or their childrens' lives are the first ones to scream " how could God let that happen, when disaster strikes ".

Just because religion is discussed at school does not mean it is being forced down anyone's throat, any more than geography, physics or any other subject. If this lady came and demended that her child be excused from science, algebra or whatever because those subjects were not going to be part of his life, what would the answer be .?.

Tell her to change schools and go on about your business.


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: JennyO
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 07:58 AM

Pogo, you said the child has been in the school for years, and yet only now the parent is complaining. You also said in another post that the child is now three. So does that mean that the child was only a baby to start with?

A couple of things occurred to me. Maybe the mother thought that the religious stories, prayers, and songs would be okay while the child was a baby and too young to understand, and now maybe the child comes home singing Jesus Loves Me etc and the mother is viewing it differently. Not very logical really, since she knew this would eventually happen, but maybe that's how she's thinking.

Another possibility might be that the mother has a new husband or boyfriend who is making a fuss, and has encouraged her to take this stance. She may not be thinking for herself.

Either way, I don't think it's reasonable for her to expect the school to do things differently just for her. It would probably mean a member of staff being tied up looking after and entertaining the child elsewhere at various times, and, as mentioned further up, the child would probably feel different too. Not fair all around.

She knew the score before she placed the child there, so let her find another school if she doesn't like what this one is doing.

And I'm not saying this from a Christian viewpoint either. I'm actually a Pagan. It's just a matter of what is fair and reasonable.

Jenny


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 08:22 AM

Another atheist here supporting the position of the school (except if there is no reasonably close alternative).

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: Susan of DT
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 12:36 PM

The real question is whether or not the school is receiving tax support. If not, it can do what it wants. If it is, there's a little something about separation of church and state.

dick greenhaus


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: jpk
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 06:34 PM

what seperation of curch and state,constition says nothing about it.but what is most funny,the ones that holler the most about how good the public schools are doing,would not let there kids go to one.personelly i think that if you can afford it the non-public route is the one to take,religious or not[mostly].


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 03:10 PM

LadyJean asked something to the effect of "What other options does the parent have in the community?"

That's irrelevant. Let's suppose there are NO other schools in teh community. This school is a private school, not a public school, and it has a certain program that it offers.   If you don't want that program, okay, goodbye.

In that case one could feel sympathy for the non (or anti) religious parent because there was nothing available which met her desires, but that's not the fault or the concern of those who run and support the school that is available.

And I say this as a non (and verging on anti) religious person myself.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: jpk
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 05:13 PM

as mentioned earlier.home school.


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: LadyJean
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 01:11 AM

For three years, in my youth, I attended a school where perhaps 90% of the students and teachers were Jewish. I went there because that was the only option available. (We didn't homeschool in those days.) It meant I was very much an outsider and I didn't have a happy time. If my parents could have sent me to another school they would have.
I know a wiccan who has her daughter in a Christian school because she thinks that's the best learning environment. Friends sent their sons to a pre school run by an evangelical church. They tried a "good" pre school for the children of upscale parents, but they and their kids weren't welcome there. People don't always have options.


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 03:46 AM

I am of the opinion that everybody ought to learn to sit quietly and politely through all kinds of religious things that they don't find any personal meaning in--and maybe even learn how to participate if it is appropriate. It don't hurt you to share a blessing with the people that you co-habit the planet with, and it don't compromise your beliefs(if any) neither--


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 05:26 PM

hats off ta ya m.ted


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: GUEST,jpk
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 05:27 PM

twas me above


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Subject: RE: BS: No religion in a religious school?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 05:51 PM

In the UK most " faith based" schools are actually funded almost exclusively by the state, but the bit of Grant Assistance they get from one church or other gives that religious body a controlling say in the running of the school. In th part of Wolverhampton where I live there are 3 secondary schools, 2 C of E and 1 Catholic based and one girls only school, which also has a very Chrustian ethos.   

Most of the parents who send their kids to these schools are not in the least bit bothered about religion and I would be very reluctant to have my children picked out because I am bothered about my children being taught nonsense as if it is fact. Children should, in my opinion, attend their local school and religion has no place in public education and that includes all publically funded educatuon.


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