Lyr Req: Just as the Tide Was Flowing

Subject: lyrics: Just as the Tide was A-flowing
From:
Date: 23 Dec 98 - 05:16 PM

I need the words to this (English, I believe) folksong. I have heard that it has been recorded by 10000 maniacs and Julie Collins, but am unable to get my hands on those recordings. Any help?

Subject: Lyr Add: JUST AS THE TIDE WAS A-FLOWING
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Dec 98 - 05:32 PM

Just As The Tide Was A Flowing
Music: Traditional; Lyric: Arranged by 10,000 Maniacs (Album: the Wishing Chair)

on one morning
in the month of May
when all the birds
were singing

I saw a lovely maiden stray
across the fields at break of day
she softly sung her roundelay

the tide flows in
the tide flows out
twice everyday returning

her cheeks were red
her eyes were brown
her hair in ringlets hanging down
upon her face to hide the frown

just as the tide was flowing

the tide flows in
the tide flows out
twice everyday returning

a sailor's wife at home must bide
she halted heavily she sighed
"he parted from poor me, a bride
I'm widowed by the sea" she cried

just as the tide was flowing

the tide flows in
the tide flows out
twice everyday returning

Subject: RE: lyrics: as the tide was a flowing
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Dec 98 - 05:38 PM

Nice song. Anybody know anything about it? No listing in the Traditional Ballad Index.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: lyrics: as the tide was a flowing
From: Bruce O.
Date: 24 Dec 98 - 11:46 AM

A rather variant version is in Frank Purslow's 'Marrow Bones', 1965. In his notes he cites publication of 7 other traditional versions.

Subject: RE: lyrics: as the tide was a flowing
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 24 Dec 98 - 02:28 PM

Peggy Seeger recorded it (nicely) many years ago and it's in her Oak song book. Song was found in the Maritimes of Canada as well as England.

Subject: RE: lyrics: as the tide was a flowing
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 24 Dec 98 - 02:29 PM

Tony Hall also recorded it. Again, a very nice job.

Subject: RE: lyrics: as the tide was a flowing
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Dec 98 - 02:42 PM

I looked for it in the database, but couldn't find it. Anybody got a tune and more traditional lyrics? Is it known by other titles?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: Lyr/Tune Add: JUST AS THE TIDE WAS FLOWING
From: Bruce O.
Date: 24 Dec 98 - 05:07 PM

JUST AS THE TIDE WAS FLOWING

One morning in the month of May,
Down by a rolling river,
A jolly sailor he did stray,
And there beheld a lover.
She carelessly along did stray,
A viewing of the daisies gay,
She sweetly sang her roundelay.
Just as the tide was flowing.

Her dress it was a white as milk,
And jewels did adorn her skin,
It was as soft and any silk,
Just like a lady of honour.
Her cheeks were red, her eyes were brown,
He hair in ringlets hanging down,
Her lovely brow without a frown,
Just as the tide was flowing.

I made a bow and said, "Fair maid,
How came you herre so early;
My heart by you it was betrayed,
And I could love you dearly.
I am a sailor come from the sea,
If you'll accept my company,
To walk and see the fishes play,
Just as the tide was flowing.

No more was said, but on her way
We both did gang together;
The small birds sang, the lambs did play,
And pleasant was the weather.
We both being weary sat us down,
Beneath a tree with branches roune:
Then to the church we soon were bound,
Just as the tide was flowing.

From Kidson's 'Traditional Tunes', 1891. Tune from Mr. Lolly (Yorkshire), but text from a broadside.

X:1
T:Just as the tide was flowing.
S:Kidson's Traditional Tunes
Q:120
L:1/4
M:C
K:G
B|GEED|GGA(G/A/)|B3/2c/B(A/G/)|\
(E3/2F/)GB|GEED|GGA(G/A/)|B3/2c/B(A/G/)|\
(E3/2F/)GB||B|ddd3/2B/|cde3/2d/|eAA(G/A/)|\
BDD(B/A/)|BEED|GGA(G/A/)|Be(B/A/) (G/F/)|(E3/2F/)G|]

---

Click to play

Subject: RE: lyrics: as the tide was a flowing
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Dec 98 - 05:19 PM

Thanks a lot, Bruce. I tried to scrounge the 10,000 Maniacs album from one of my kids, but the one who has it isn't going to make it home for Christmas.
Merry Christmas!
-Joe Offer-

Subject: Lyr/Tune Add: JUST AS THE TIDE WAS FLOWING
From: Ian Kirk
Date: 28 Dec 98 - 08:53 AM

JUST AS THE TIDE WAS FLOWING

One morning in the month of May
Down by a rolling river
A jolly sailor I did stray
When I beheld some lover
So carelessly along did stray
A picking of the daisies gay
So sweet she sang a roundelay
Just as the tide was flowing

Oh her dress it was a white as milk
And her jewels did adorn her
Her shoes were made of the crimson silk
Just like some lady of honour
Her cheeks were red her eyes were brown
Her hair in ringlets hanging down
She's a lovely brow without a frown
Just as the tide was flowing

I made a bow and said - fair maid
How come you here so early
My heart by you it is betrayed
For I could love you dearly
I am a sailor home from sea
If you will accept of my company
To walk and view the fishes play
Just as the tide is a-flowing

No more we said but on the way
We ganged along together
The small birds sang and the lambs did play
And pleasant was the weather
When we were weary we both sat down
Beneath a tree with the branches round
And what was done shall never be found
As long as the tide was flowing

But as she lay upon the grass
Her colours they kept changing
Till she cried out and said - Alas
Never let your mind be ranging
Here is twenty pounds I have in store
Meet me when you will there's plenty more
For my jolly sailor I adore
Just as the tide is a-flowing

We both shook hands and off we steer
Jack Tar drinks rum and brandy
To keep his shipmates in good cheer
The lady's gold is handy
And along with some other pretty maid I will go
To a public house where the brandy do flow
Sucess to the maid that will do so
Just as the tide is a-flowing

ABC Tune as follows

X:0
T:Just as the Tide Was Flowing
L:1/8
M:4/4
K:Bflat
Q:240
(d3/2c/ )|B2 A2 G2 F2 |B2 B2 c2 B2 |(de )f2 d2 (cB |)(G3 A )B2 (d3/2c/ |)B2 A2 G2 F2 |B2 B2 c2 B2 |(de )f2 (dc)(BA )|G3 A B2 (de )|f2 f2 f2 (de )|f2 f2 f2 (ef )|g2 f2 d2 (cB )|(dc)(BA )G2 d2 |B2 G2 G2 F2 |B2 B2 c2 (Bc )|(de )f2 (dc)(BA )|(G3 A )B2 ||

Expermental Area

We both shook hands and off we steer
Jack Tar drinks rum and brandy
To keep his shipmates in good cheer
The lady's gold is handy
And along with some other pretty maid I will go
To a public house where the brandy do flow
Sucess to the maid that will do so
Just as the tide is a-flowing

---

Click to play

Subject: RE: lyrics: as the tide was a flowing
From: Ian Kirk
Date: 28 Dec 98 - 09:14 AM

OK I think I'm getting somewhere. The abc still isn't right but that's because when I put the
in and checked it back through by ABC player it completely screwed it up. However it is now clear that the
isn't seen by this message box so I'll resubmit the tune.

As far as the experiment mentioned before is concerned I haven't yet got my head round what is going on bear with me - I'm at it again

First line of verse Second line of verse Third line of verse Fourth line of verse

Ian

Subject: Tune Add: JUST AS THE TIDE WAS FLOWING
From: Ian Kirk
Date: 28 Dec 98 - 10:13 AM

OK I think I have sorted it out. First the tune for Just as the Tide was Flowing

ABC Tune as follows

X:0
T:Just as the Tide Was Flowing
L:1/8
M:4/4
K:Bflat
Q:240
(d3/2c/ )|B2 A2 G2 F2 |B2 B2 c2 B2 |(de )f2 d2 (cB |)\
(G3 A )B2 (d3/2c/ |)B2 A2 G2 F2 |B2 B2 c2 B2 |\
(de )f2 (dc)(BA )|G3 A B2 (de )|f2 f2 f2 (de )|\
f2 f2 f2 (ef )|g2 f2 d2 (cB )|(dc)(BA )G2 d2 |\
B2 G2 G2 F2 |B2 B2 c2 (Bc )|(de )f2 (dc)(BA )|\
(G3 A )B2 ||

Now the paragraph replacement bit see the Adding Lyrics and Music thread.I tacked my stuff on this at the end of that thread.

Regards

Ian

---

Click to play

Subject: RE: lyrics: as the tide was a flowing
From: Rick Nagler
Date: 28 Dec 98 - 11:35 AM

Many many thanks: the version that the maniacs sing doesnt quite fit the meter we need, and Bruce and Ian's versions work much better. I think we have the morris-ized version, as the tune is very close to "blue eyed stranger" though the first half of the B part is different.

Rick

Subject: RE: lyrics: as the tide was a flowing
From: Murray on Saltspring
Date: 30 Dec 98 - 02:36 AM

Am I right in thinking there's a good resemblance to the Scottish tune "Good Night and Joy Be Wi Ye Aa"?

Subject: RE: lyrics: as the tide was a flowing
From: IanC
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 12:33 PM

I'm in the process of trying to rebuild a version of "Just as The Tide Was Flowing" from the fragment recorded by Shirley Collins in 1971 on "No Roses" and I found this thread, so I thought I'd continue it.

The following is quoted from the sleeve notes of "No Roses":

Just As The Tide Was A 'Flowin
From Aunt Grace Winhorn, Hastings

"This is a fragment from my Aunt Grace that she sang to my sister and I when we were children. To my amazement and amusement it was covered by the American group 10,000 Maniacs. I like their version - it's very much like mine, so I've got to!"

Robert Burns' "Parting Glass" is set to a variant of this tune but, as has been noted above, the structure of Shirley Collins' version of the song is more complex than the ones usually collected. The story is also apparently quite a bit different.

Does anyone have any less fragmentary versions of this variant? I like it much more than the "standard" one, especially the refrain:

"The tide goes in, the tide goes out
Twice every day returning".

Thanks
Ian

Subject: RE: lyrics: as the tide was a flowing
From: grumpy al
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 03:57 PM

got it in a book called "Folk songs collected by Ralph Vaughn Williams" edited by Roy Palmer, published by Dent ISBN No 0-460-04558-x first published 1983. dont know if it is still in print but you may be able to get it from a library. The best version I ahve heatd of the song is by Mick Ryan. the Grumps

Subject: RE: lyrics: as the tide was a flowing
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 06:53 PM

I've always wondered what was meant by her changing her colours !?
Any suggestions?

Subject: RE: lyrics: as the tide was a flowing
From: GUEST,kytrad
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 07:01 PM

Way back in the late 1920s our family had a wind-up Victrola on which we played several scratchy records. I vaguely remember a set of small-size records put out by an English company. A choral group, "The English Singers," did several songs, one of which was, "Just as the Tide Was Flowing." They were certainly forerunners of, The King Singers- I was amazed by the arrangements, being a little tot used to hearing and singing the songs straight-out. The chorus was especially incredible:

A-flowing, a-flowing, a-a-flow---------------------ing! Impossible to describe. Bruce-O's Kidson version given above is nearest to my "English Singers." Wish I could find that record again!

Jean

Subject: RE: lyrics: as the tide was a flowing
From: Stewie
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 09:50 PM

Robin and Barry Dransfield recorded a lovely version on their 'Lord of All I Behold' 1971 LP [Trailer LER 2026] which unfortunately didn't make it to the double CD reissue on Free Reed - it's locked up with the Nic Jones stuff and other goodies by the dreaded Bulmer. The Dransfields version follows the Kidson text posted by Bruce fairly closely until the third last line 'branches round'. It then has verses that are similar to those posted by Ian:

... beneath the trees with branches round
What we did there may ne'er be found
As long as tides are flowing

And as she lay upon the grass her colour it kept changing
And then she cried out, 'And alas, never let your mind be ranging
Here's fifty guineas I have in store, come back when you will for there's plenty more
For my jolly sailor I adore,
Just as the tide is flowing'

Then we shook hands and off we steered, Jack Tar drinks rum and brandy
To keep his shipmates in good cheer the lady's gold is handy
Then along with another girl he'll go, to a public house where brandy do flow
Good luck to the girl who does do so
As long as tides are flowing

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: lyrics: as the tide was a flowing
From: Bearheart
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 11:51 AM

I found this thread in looking for a song from Eliza Carthy's newest(?) cd. My sister played it for me a few weeks ago , and the tune's easy (clearly related to The Parting Glass), but she didn't include words. I think it's related to the versions listed here but with more verses.Anyone got them? It's such an engaging tune, the more verses the better I think!(I do think it's one of the best things she does...)
Thanks
Bekki

Subject: RE: lyrics: as the tide was a flowing
From: masato sakurai
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 12:31 PM

From folktrax:

JUST AS THE TIDE WAS FLOWING - "One morning in the month of May - down by a rolling river" - sailor - lady of honour - ROUD#1105 - BSs incl BG 2:#46/ 6:#29/ 6:#51/ 7:#59 - KIDSON TT 1891 pp108- 9 Charles Lolley, Leeds, Yorksh - SHARP-MARSON FSS2 - SBG-SHARP Schools 1906 - SHARP-KARPELES CSC 1974 #385 pp558-9 Harry Richards, Curry Rivel, Somerset 1904 - JFSS 2:8 1906 p173 RVW: Mr Harper, Kings Lynn, Norfolk 1905 2v - VAUGHAN WILLIAMS 8TC 1919 - WILLIAMS #615/ #616 - KIDSON FSNC 1927 - COLLINSON- DILLON 1956 pp22-23 Harry Cox, Catfield, Norfolk - PURSLOW MB 1965 p48 Hammond: Walter Diment, Cheddington, Dorset 1906 - FMJ 1982 p227 Hammond Ms - PALMER RVW 1983 #59 pp94-5 Mr Harper --- GREENLEAF NFL 1933 p135 "Down where the tide was flowing" -- Tune: Cf BLUE-EYED STRANGER -- Harry COX rec Potter Heigham, Norfolk 18/12/45: RPL 17231/ TOPIC TSCD-662 - Julia ADCOCK rec by PK, Watton, Norfolk 1950 7"RTR-009 - Stephen BALDWIN (tune on fid) rec by Russell Wortley, Upton Bishop, Herefordsh 1954: LEADER LED-2068 1976/ TOPIC TSCD-665 1998 - Shirley with Dolly COLLINS (flute organ): POLYDOR 583-025 1968 from her aunt: Grace Winborn/ with ALBION CD Band: B & C CREST 11/PEG-7 1971/ DECCA SML-1117 1974/ Radio 2 28/12/88: CASS-60-0849 with talk - LONDON MADRIGAL SINGERS: EMI HQS-12215 1970 - Tony ROSE (voc/ organ & ch): LEADER LER-2024 1971 - DRANSFIELDS: LEADER LER-2026 1971 - Geof JERRAM & Steve JORDAN (unacc harmony) Dorset: FOREST TRACKS FT-3007 1975 - Tony HALL (melodeon) with Nic JONES (fid/gtr) & Tommy Moynihan (mand/bouz/whistle): FREE REED FRR-012 1976

~Masato

Subject: RE: lyrics: as the tide was a flowing
From: masato sakurai
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 12:43 PM

Four editions are at Bodleian Library Broadside Ballads:

Just As the Tide Is Flowing

Just As the Tide Was Flowing

Subject: RE: lyrics: as the tide was a flowing
From: nutty
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 12:49 PM

As a matter of interest, here is the oldest broadside copy that I could find in the Bodleain Library

Details

Printer:   Catnach, J. (London)

Date:      between 1813 and 1838
   
Imprint:   J. Catnach, Printer, 2, & 3, Monmouth-Court, 7 Dials
          Illus. Ballads on sheet: 2
   
            
Copies:    Harding B 11(3634)


Just as the Tide was Flowing

Subject: RE: lyrics: as the tide was a flowing
From: nutty
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 12:50 PM

you beat me Masato

Subject: RE: lyrics: as the tide was a flowing
From: masato sakurai
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 12:52 PM

One more:

Tide Is Flowing

Subject: RE: lyrics: as the tide was a flowing
From: Bearheart
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 02:54 PM

I think it is the second one that she does...Will scan with the recording when I can get a chance to hear it again...

Thank You!

Bekki

Subject: RE: Chords: as the tide was a flowing
From: GUEST,Pete N
Date: 30 Dec 03 - 04:29 PM

Hi,
Can anybody help with chords for this great song.
Thanks,
Pete N

Subject: Chords Add: JUST AS THE TIDE WAS FLOWING
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 09 Jan 04 - 08:26 AM

For the Kidson/Lolley lyrics quoted above I use the following chords

One morning in the month of May,
    D       G      D       A
Down by a rolling river,
    D            GAD
A jolly sailor he did stray,
       G      D      A
And there beheld a lover.
    D             GAD
She carelessly along did stray,
               G
A viewing of the daisies gay,
D             Bm         GA
She sweetly sang her roundelay.
    D       G       D    A   
Just as the tide was flowing.
    D               GAD

This to a tune I remember hearing sung to it years ago, which may not be the one notated with the Kidson/Lolley version. I don't have an instrument to hand, but I reckon the chords are OK.

Subject: RE: lyrics: as the tide was a flowing
From: GUEST,Pete N
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 03:49 PM

Subject: RE: lyrics: as the tide was a flowing
From: GUEST,Pete N
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 03:51 PM

To Peter Standing,
Many thanks for the chords - will try them as soon as I can.
Cheers.
Pete N

Subject: RE: lyrics: as the tide was a flowing
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 04:37 AM

Pete N, a word of warning, when I typed the lyrics and the underlying chords out, the font was mono-spaced. The thread that you read might be proportionally spaced so the chords are shifted to the left. One way of compensating for this is to cut and paste the thread into something like Word using a fixed font like Courier. When you do that, the chords are almost where I intended them to be.

Subject: RE: lyrics: as the tide was a flowing
From: GUEST,PeteN
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 11:52 AM

Peter Standing,
Thanks for the update re he chord positions. I kind of sussed that out for myself and it all seems to work fine. I'll try what you suggested anyway.
Thanks for your help.
regards.
PeteN

Subject: Lyr Add: JUST AS THE TIDE IS FLOWING (Bodleian)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 01:14 PM

From the broadside in the Bodleian collection. I have added punctuation, and boldfaced the words that are different from the version that Ian Kirk posted last.

JUST AS THE TIDE IS FLOWING

One morning in the month of May,
Down by a rolling river,
A jolly sailor he did stray,
Where he beheld some lover.
She carelessly along did stray,
Viewing of the daisies gay.
She sweetly sung her roundelay
Just as the tide was flowing.

Her dress it was white as milk,
And jewels did adorn her.
Her shoes was of the crimson silk,
Just like some lady of honour.
Her cheeks was red. Her eyes was brown,
Her hair in ringlets hanging down,
Her lovely brow without a frown,
Just as the tide was flowing.

I made a bow and said, "Fair maid,
How came you here so early?
My heart by you it is betrayed
And I could love you dearly.
I am a sailor come from sea.
If you will, accept my company
To walk and view the fishes play
Just as the tide is a-flowing."

No more we said but on our way
We both did gang together.
The small birds sung and the lambs did play
And pleasant was the weather.
We was weary, both sat down
Beneath a tree with branches round,
And what was done will ne'er be found,
Not while the tide is flowing.

But as she laid upon the grass,
Her colour it kept changing.
At last cried out this lovely lass,
"Ne'er let your mind be ranging."
She gave me twenty pounds in store,
Saying, "Meet me when you will, there's more.
My jolly sailor I adore.
Oh! How the tide is a-flowing!"

We both shook hands and off did steer.
Jack tar drinks rum and brandy.
To keep his shipmates in full cheer,
The lady's gold is handy.
With some other young girl he'll go
To a public house where the brandy flows.
Success to the girl that will do so
Where'er the tide is a-flowing.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Just as the Tide Was Flowing
From: Mr Happy
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 01:41 PM

A member of our session's been doing this one lately, though hers is the one with 'the tide flows in, the tide flows out
twice everyday returning' chorus.

A superb version from the late, great Tony Rose: Just As The Tide Was Flowing - Tony Rose

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Just as the Tide Was Flowing
From: Reinhard
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 04:47 PM

Joe mentioned in 1998 that there was no entry in the Traditional Ballad Index. By now there is:

Just As the Tide Was Flowing
DESCRIPTION: A sailor and girl stop "Beneath the shade and branches round, What they done there will never be known So long as the tides are flowing." She gives him gold. He goes to the alehouse and drinks "to the girl that never said no" or spent it on other girls.
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: before 1839 (broadside, Bodleian Harding B 11(3634))
KEYWORDS: courting lover sailor gold
FOUND IN: Britain(England(Lond,North,South)) Canada(Newf)
REFERENCES (4 citations):
Wiltshire-WSRO Mi 615, "Just As the Tide Is Flowing"; Wiltshire-WSRO Mi 616, "Just As the Tide Is Flowing" (2 texts)
Kidson-Tunes, pp. 108-109, "Just As the Tide Was Flowing" (1 text, 1 tune)
Greenleaf/Mansfield 66, "Down Where the Tide Was Flowing" (3 texts, 1 tune)
RoudBishop #30, "Just As the Tide Was a-Flowing" (1 text, 1 tune)
Roud #1105
RECORDINGS:
Harry Cox, "Just As the Tide Was A-Flowing" (on Voice12)
BROADSIDES:
Bodleian, Harding B 11(3634), "Just As the Tide Was Flowing," J. Catnach (London), 1813-1838; also Harding B 11(1951), Harding B 11(1952), "Just As the Tide Was Flowing"; Johnson Ballads 1837, "Tide is Flowing"; Firth c.12(274), "Just As the Tide is Flowing"
File: GrMa066

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Just as the Tide Was Flowing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 02:41 AM

MacColl and Seeger recorded this from the great Norfolk singer, Sam Larner in the 1960s
Ewan always used it as an example of the precise nature of the language of folk song.
The title repeated line, "Just as the tide was flowing" is not just a throwaway or there to make up the poetry, but a precise reference to the time of day - essential to those who made their living from the sea.
He used it as an argument that singers should examine the words of songs fully when they sang them, especially the singers who visualise their songs when they sang them.
I'm pretty sure that they interviewed Sam talking about the phrase at some length
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Just as the Tide Was Flowing
From: Mo the caller
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 11:06 AM

I've joined a choir which is singing Vaughan Williams
5 English Folk Songs
I think this may be the version which Kytrad heard (mentioned years upthread) Just as the Tide is at 5.30

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Just as the Tide Was Flowing
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 01:14 PM

"The title repeated line, "Just as the tide was flowing" is not just a throwaway or there to make up the poetry, but a precise reference to the time of day - essential to those who made their living from the sea"   That may have been his opinion, but it reminds me of the naiviety of the upper thames collector, who thought the line" I must climb a tall tree and rob a wild birds nest" reflected the singers ornithological ignorance, and did not understand its sexual significance.
As far as I am concerned, the phrase "Just as the tide was flowing", has beautiful sexual connotations.
Ewan, was entitled to his opinion, in my opinion he was missing the point of the song.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Just as the Tide Was Flowing
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 01:29 PM

I was referring to Alfred Williams who collected in that area, I quote
"Williams, in keeping with other contemporary folk song collectors, did indeed try to avoid bawdy songs, as this comment shows:

I have more than once, on being told an indelicate song, had great difficulty in persuading the rustic, my informant, that I could not show the piece, and therefore I should not write it.

But, unlike some members of the Folk Song Society, who were extremely puritanical when it came to songs of a sexual nature, Williams clearly sympathized with the singers who were confused by his reluctance to note down such songs.

Besides the legitimate pieces there were many "rough" songs in circulation. I make no apology for them. I do not know, indeed, that any is needed. They were rude, but not altogether bad. Many of them were satirical. In fact, the most of that kind of which I have heard were so. They dealt chiefly with immorality; not to encourage or suggest it, but to satirise (sic) it. No doubt they served the purpose for which they were intended, in some cases, at any rate, though we of our time should call them indelicate. And such, to us, they certainly are. Yet the simple, unspoiled rustic folks did not consider them out of place. They saw no harm in them. But they knew not shame, as we do. They were really very innocent compared with ourselves.

Just occasionally, though, it seems that the 'simple, unspoiled rustic folks' get the better of Williams, when they slipped in the odd erotic metaphor that Williams seems to have missed. Take his note to the song T Stands for Thomas, for example:

A quaint old song, composed by one who, whatever other qualifications he might have possessed, was never a naturalist, or he would not have wished to climb to the highest tree-top to rob the cuckoo's nest."
    The story of Just AS The Tide was Flowing is explicit,MacColl like Williams was literally barking up the wrong Tree, or even up Barking Creek without a paddle

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Just as the Tide Was Flowing
From: Mo the caller
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 01:47 PM

I think someone on Mudcat recently said that folk songs, like all poetry, can have various layers of meaning.
There is certainly (IMO) a nautical metaphor of taking your opportunity, not missing the tide.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Just as the Tide Was Flowing
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 02:05 PM

ok, but not missing ones opportunity is not exclusive to nautical matters., or those who make a living from the sea.
and is not in my opinion the main point of the song, missing ones opportunity, has predatorial connotations, this is a beautiful song that in my opinion is spoiled by suggesting it is solely about taking ones opportunity., that is really lowering the tone.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Just as the Tide Was Flowing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 02:41 PM

"The story of Just AS The Tide was Flowing is explicit,MacColl like Williams was literally barking up the wrong Tree,"
Must have been Sam Larner I'm afraid - he was the one who passed on the information
Sam went to some length to explain his song.
I usually find that it's the older singers who know what their songs are about and the academics who try to read too much into them who get it wrong.
I've never got over Phillips Barry's spectacular exercise in kite- flying with his "magic island, mermaid" interpretation of one of our most beautiful domestic tragedy songs, 'Lake of Coll Fin' in The New Green Mountain Songster'
As far as bowdlerised the songs, I still find The Folk Song Journal's tune, 'The Girl from Lowestoft or The Hole in the Wall" wit the not "I wrote down the tune but the words are not fit for publication so I didn't note them"
The ones that got away eh?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Just as the Tide Was Flowing
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 03:01 PM

Jim, I dont care whether it was Sam or Ewan, in my opinion that comment misses the point of the song.
I would say the same thing if it was an academic or a traditional singer who made such a statement.
Sam Larner in my opinion as a singer could not hold a candle to Phil Tanner, but thats only my opinion.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Just as the Tide Was Flowing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 07:03 PM

"I dont care whether it was Sam or Ewan, in my opinion that comment misses the point of the song"
It may be your point Dick but you didn't make the song nor were you part of its transmission
Personally I'd rather go with Sam because he was around a century nearer the source.
It's always dodgy when you impose your own views on those who gave us the songs - they've been at it much longer than we have
And when you start comparing our best singers as if they were competitors on 'Britain's Got Talent......!!!!
I'm outta this
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Just as the Tide Was Flowing
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 03:59 AM

Jim, I am only giving an opinion,I am not trying to impose my views, any more than you are when you give an opinion.
neither am I comparing singers in a competitive way, I am in effect saying who i prefer to listen to, that is personal taste.
I agree that competitions are affected by pesonal taste.
neither did sam make the song , and actually I have been part of its transmission i hve been singning it for 40 years.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Just as the Tide Was Flowing
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 04:42 PM

Not only do many traditional songs mean different things to different people, their meaning can change dramatically over a period of time, via oral tradition, print tradition and the tradition of fakery. The academic, the collector, the researcher, the source singer, the revival singer could all have a different opinion on the meanings in a song and it's possible they could all be right.

There's nothing dodgy in presenting an opinion if that's all it is, and we can all have our own opinions on others' opinions.

If you want to see how the implicit meaning in songs can change from version to version have a look at some of Richie's detailed studies here, or even better his enormous.....................website.

Personally I tend to accept only the explicit meaning unless another layer is obvious, or the extra layer(s) is proven. I have to agree with Jim on the likes of Phillips Barry and their flights of fantasy/fancy.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Just as the Tide Was Flowing
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 02:39 AM

There's an interesting disagreement here. All sides have validity. I hope that we can respect that.
Joe

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Just as the Tide Was Flowing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 03:10 AM

There is no "right or wrong" way of accepting any of these songs, it has to be a personal interpretation of a set of words from the point of view of the singer.
We don't know what gave rise to the making of these songs and in most cases, we don't even know when they were made, so we have to rely on the information that comes with them
The listener has to decide whether it works for them, but in the end, the minutia interpretation of the words is over-ridden by the performance - if it works, it works.
The outsider-researcher (observer) is in a different position altogether and stands to impose an outsider's view on the songs he/she has played no part in the making of.
In this particular case one of out best and most important singers, Sam Larner, went out of his way to point out to a collector the particular importance he attached to what appears to be a simple, passing phrase - good enough for me.
Sam, like most traditional singers I have talked to, visualised his songs - he saw them in pictures and it would be arrogant of any outsider to reject and dispute that picture - to reject a piece of information that we have been given from our source.
The fact that we know so little about our tradition is down to the fact that collectors and researchers have treated our singers as non-thinking sources of songs
It often seems to me that some of the "folk confraternity" have formed themselves into exclusive clubs to discuss our songs as sets of words (artifacts) rather than what they were a living, vital part of people's lives - we've lost the plot - literally.
It's not as if we are analysing two different interpretations from to different sources - we are imposing our own outsiders' interpretation on theirs because we think we know more than they do - a bad way to handle traditional knowledge.
I mentioned 'Lakes of Col Finn earlier - one of our most beautiful tragic domestic songs which has worked for centuries as just that.
A young man goes swimming in the dodgy part of a lake, is drowned, his friends and family search for him, pull his body out of the water, his lover laments his loss, he is buried - end of story.
THis is the interpretation imposed on it by a highly respected American academic:

From Lilith, the wild woman of perilous love, and Morgain la Fee, to the mood of a street ballad about one of the many Irish youths who have lost their lives in fresh water, is a long leap. But "The Lakes of Col Fin" takes it. Irish singers un¬derstand the lore of the ballad perfectly: Willie was not "drowned"; he was taken away to Tir fa Tonn, "Fairyland-under-wave," by a water woman who had fallen in love with him. Legends of similar content are frequent in Middle Irish literature and have survived into modern popular tradition. We may compare Motherwell's, "The Mermayden," whose "bower is biggit o' the gude ships' keels, and the banes o' the drowned at sea"—-a grim picture of the supernatural woman's cruelty in love, which the poet nicely caught—and Leyden's "The Mermaid of Corrievre- kan," with a happy ending wrought by a clever hero who inveigles the mermaid into taking him back to bid farewell to his former love, "the maid of Colonsay." Both poems were based on local traditions and legends.
Popular tradition, however, does not mean popular origin. In the case of our ballad, the underlying folklore is Irish de facto, but not de lure: the ballad is of Oriental and literary origin, and HAS SUNK TO THE LEVEL OF THE "FOLK" which has the keeping of folklore. To put it in a single phrase, memory not invention is the function of the folk.
"The Lakes of Col Fin" was first printed by Dr. P. W. Joyce in 1872, in a version, with the air, obtained from a County Limerick singer. A full history of the ballad and of the folk tradition pertaining to it is in FSSNE, Bulletin No. 8, pp. 9— 12.
Mrs. Flanders met this ballad as "The Lakes of Champlain" while talking about old songs with Mrs. Herbert Haley of Cuttingsville, Vermont. Mrs. Haley sang the words to the tune of "The Dying Cowboy" and had been told that the drowned boy was "Willie Lanard," well known to the person who gave her the song.
(Phillips Barry, Lake of Col Finn, New Green Mountain Songster, Yale University Press 1939)"
Academic gibberish imposed on a straightforward story by someone with too much time on his hands
He has the arrogance to say that the singers not only do the singers not know what they are singing but that they have corrupted the songs that have "come down" to them - their job is repetition, not understanding and interpretation.
It's no wonder we understand so little of our heritage as a part of our history.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Just as the Tide Was Flowing
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 05:36 PM

Hi, Jim.
I've already agreed with you regarding Phillips Barry's spin on 'lakes' and I think most academics who know anything about the period following Child's death would agree a lot of hot air was expended by his pupils and a lot of theories were put forward which are no longer acceptable.

The statements you highlight are unfortunate in the way they are expressed; 'sunk to the level' looks extremely patronising and insulting to us today, but a century ago most collectors and academics came from a much different background to the source singers. I'm not excusing this sort of statement, just trying to put it a little more in context.

The other statement 'memory not invention is the function of folk' also on the face of it looks very damning. He does say he is paraphrasing. Perhaps he should have inserted the words 'most of' after 'of'. In the majority of cases this is true in the English-speaking world, the majority repeat the song as they have heard it and their alterations are mostly accidental. We both know, you more than most, that a relative few source singers are more than capable of excellent 'invention'.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Just as the Tide Was Flowing
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 06:59 PM

This song appears in Folk Songs from Somerset, Second Series, by Cecil J. Sharp and Charles L. Marson (London: Simpkin & Co., Ltd., 1905), page 22. It is printed with a piano arrangement.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Just as the Tide Was Flowing
From: Little Robyn
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 05:53 PM

At the top of this thread it mentions a version by 10,000 Maniacs so out of curiosity I checked Youtube (I love modern technology) and found Just as the tide was flowing
Robyn

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Just as the Tide Was Flowing
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 04:54 AM

10,000 Maniacs, hopefully somebody has found them a padded cell

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Just as the Tide Was Flowing
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 05:27 AM

I always liked Peggy Seegers version.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Just as the Tide Was Flowing
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 05:27 AM

I always liked Peggy Seegers version.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Just as the Tide Was Flowing
From: Reinhard
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 04:44 PM

10,000 Maniacs, hopefully somebody has found them a padded cell

It's just a fantasy name, just like "The Sandman", which is the name of a wonderful dark fantasy comic book series by Neil Gaiman.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Just as the Tide Was Flowing
From: leeneia
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 10:18 AM

Thanks for the link, Little Robyn. It's interesting to hear the music.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Just as the Tide Was Flowing
From: GUEST,Ernie Whalley
Date: 24 Feb 21 - 07:54 AM

Unless I've missed it, I didn't see it on here, but I'd reckon that this song divides (albeit simplistically) into two threads - the "Tide flows in, tide flows out" version and what it's convenient to call "the Kidson version."
I'd venture that most revival singers of a certain age who performed this song got their version from one of two sources (a) ("tide flows in etc) from Shirley Collins or (b) the late Tony Rose, for whom JATTWF was almost a signature tune.
I on't think 10,000 Maniacs mangled version was ever a factor.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Just as the Tide Was Flowing
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Feb 21 - 08:51 AM

Talking of Shirley Collins, the song is on her album No Roses, on which she's accompanied by the Albion Country Band (with plenty of legends in the lineup!). On that album the song is titled Just As The Tide Was A'Flowing. In my ever-so-humble opinion that is the best folk-rock (if you want to call it that) album ever, utterly lovely (I'm biased because I love Shirley). The song is on YouTube, but just buy the bloody album!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Just as the Tide Was Flowing
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 26 Feb 21 - 04:21 AM

Sorry to confess that this is the only version of the song I have ever heard, and I love it, even if it does stretch out to over 8 minutes!
Just as the tide - Eliza Carthy

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Just as the Tide Was Flowing
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Feb 21 - 07:22 AM

to contrast that version
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-SPThFpviU&fmt=18

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Just as the Tide Was Flowing
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Feb 21 - 07:25 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGVnwtYIvFc Tony rose, WHY BECAUSE IT IS NOT A FECKIN DIRGE IMO imo far superior to LIZA CARTHY,

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Just as the Tide Was Flowing
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 27 Feb 21 - 10:29 AM

Thanks for introducing me to further versions: enjoyed both of those, though - dare I say it, the Tony Rose one was a bit too “metronomic” for me. Liked yours a lot, Dick.
While on YouTube I surfed through a sea of other versions; I only found one slower than Eliza’s, but there were several choirs galloping through the song in just 2 minutes!
Those I liked also:
Dolly Collins’ earlier recordings (not the Albion Band one - also too much “beat”)
Jon Boden - nice restrained accompaniment
Peggy Seeger (with Tom Paley)

I also found the 10,000 Maniacs - heavy folk-rock
Peter Bellamy - the only a capella version apart from the choirs
James Yorkston - a bit sort of whispery

Perhaps the most unusual version was from Sidmouth Folk Festival 2012, with Jackie Oates playing pizzicato fiddle and singing the song for 2 dancers to compete in the double jig competition ( and they won!)

Now back to the rugby! Ireland leading Italy.