BS: 'Catters Missing In Action

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 01:09 AM

Wow! Lyrical Lady here!!! So good to see so many " old faces"!
I check in every so often...rarely... if ever, do I post.. I never liked posting...always got some off the wall and sometimes mean responses! It's good to check in though..nice to see you.
I miss Musicman, Nightowl and Spaw..to name but a few!

Ta Ta...Barb

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: Deckman
Date: 04 Jul 05 - 11:13 PM

So ... the cat is now back on again ... "Off again, on again, come again John!" SHEEEEUH! Bob

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: Deckman
Date: 04 Jul 05 - 03:30 PM

I'm finding it increasingly frustrating to get any "momentum" going. I'm trying to auction off several hundred books that would be of interest to catters, yet just about the time I'm ready to post another auction item, the cat crashes again!!

It's hard to stay interested this way! Bob

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: JennyO
Date: 04 Jul 05 - 12:31 AM

Who remembers "Dreaded Guest" with all his/her predictions of doom and gloom, secret societies and Big Brother? Things were quite lively then, too.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Jul 05 - 08:41 PM

If you wanted a cogent statement of a non-majority view, "Gibson" was never that. Teribus, however, was. I miss him.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 03 Jul 05 - 04:37 PM

I have enjoyed being here and looking in over the years---and contributing as well. I am sorry if my feelings on our music bothered some of you good folks. Possibly mistakenly, I took some posts personally when they weren't intended to be seen that way. I am here less now, but there are less threads here now on which I have meaningful additions to make.-----I have several good friends I've made here, and many of you have truly enriched my life.

With appreciation,

Art

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Jul 05 - 03:32 PM

True enough, John. Understanding his side of the argument was difficult when it was without reason. Perhaps I have insulted more worthy opponents. My apologies to them. What I am trying to say is that when we all agree, the discussion is not quite so lively. I actually welcome hearing the voice of opposition. It affords me the opportunity to clarify my own point of view.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: John Hardly
Date: 03 Jul 05 - 02:24 PM

I can honestly say that I can't think of a single instance where MG ever expressed a well-reasoned POV, much less one that represented either side. He claimed, by bluster, to be from one side, but never once did he use anything that resembled reason to make his case.

He is what we would all wish for in an opponent.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Jul 05 - 01:23 PM

I still read, its just that I haven't had much time to post. I'm living in a construction zone, moving up five flights at work (30 boxes), and gardening every chance I get. The crunch is over mid-week and then I'll be travelling.

Mudcat is the one place I have to express my opinions and get some feedback. Sometimes I think I even miss MG because he was the voice of opposition and I was able to understand the 'other side' of the argument a little better. I do not miss his insults and profanity. Too bad he wasn't able to frame his thoughts in a more appropriate manner.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: Amos
Date: 03 Jul 05 - 01:19 PM

That looks more like a hall monitor to me, Kevin! :D

A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jul 05 - 12:34 PM

Oops, I gave the wrong link. Here is the "fine picture of a monitor"

Moral, always check your links in preview before posting...

I think the picture combines a sense of authority with a hint of a certain steely benevolence.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: Flash Company
Date: 03 Jul 05 - 12:20 PM

I've only been away for a fortnight, Ye Gods, How I have missed you all!
I was never nimble enough in the finger department to play an instrument, I used to refer to myslf as an unaccomplished singer (which was about right!).
I will joke about most things, but I never liked, and never will like, the jokes aimed to hurt someone else just because you can't understand them. Not on!
I love you all, and really get withdrawal symptoms when I'm away!

FC

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: Matt R
Date: 02 Jul 05 - 01:58 PM

I'm still here.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jul 05 - 12:08 PM

You don't use a chipper for those, Mark! (Geeze louise... ) You use a WEDGE!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: Peter T.
Date: 02 Jul 05 - 10:26 AM

As someone who has been around here forever, and gone through ebbs and flows, heaven knows, I stick to my belief that the Mudcat is the best place around.   The big difference for me is that for the first few years there were two really exciting things that have changed: one, just the blast of the Internet -- people were just discovering that you could do this kind of weird thiing, and it was fascinating to discover what worked and what didn't -- even trolls used to be interesting because it made you think about what makes an online community thrive or die; two, many of us were just trying to find folk songs, and folk lyrics, etc., which were not available. They are now available here, many thousands of them, and a huge range of topics has been covered.   While the folk universe is infinite, a whole pile of basic questions are already answered here. This makes it a little boring for old timers.   Another discussion of why the Fields of Athenry should be banned is not exactly going to wind our cranks. But there it is.

Also, I met Rick Fielding here, and a lot of other wonderful people, so it has my eternal allegiance.

It is still great, still fun. You never know what is going to turn up. THANK YOU MAX.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jul 05 - 06:40 AM

Here's a fine picture of a monitor...

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 02 Jul 05 - 03:25 AM

I agree that the 'Cat, like many things, ebbs and flows over time. I've been an infrequent visitor for the past few months because of my move. I first joined in 1999, I believe, and it was a lifesaver for me, stuck on a rock in the middle of the Pacific, newly separated from a difficult marriage but also from my child, and realizing how much I'd missed the folk music community I'd grown to love so much when I lived in Portland and Seattle. It felt like being at a wonderful worldwide song circle, except without the singing. (HearMe even brought that back, for a while.)

I hadn't realized that Martin had been barred (I'm assuming that's what happened), but I think it was a good move.

You know, for all that we "old-timers" bitch about how good the 'Cat was in the old days, I think it's still damn good. I think what Azizi said above is worth repeating:

Since I constantly read that things were better in the good ole days of Mudcat, I have to believe that this was so. But in spite of the difficulties of the last few months, I continue to promote this discussion forum to others.

I do so because there is much that I appreciate about "Mudcat-in-the-present"-the knowlegeable, interesting, talented people who I've 'met' here; the musical resouces & other information shared through comments & hyperlinks; the support that is often given when bad things happen to folks here; the congratulations that is shared with others when good things happen to folks here; the creative witty BS fun that often makes me smile even when I'm feeling my most gloom & doomyish, and so much more....

I thank Max, and Joe Offer and others who are responsible for this opportunity, this resource, this writing outlet; this recreational pastime, this Mudcat.

God willing, I will be here for some time to come.

Amen, sister.

Aloha,
Mark

PS, Carol, it is certainly possible to have a serious conversation about accordions. For example, with the smaller Italian models like a 48-bass Camerano, which is the best brand of chipper to use? And do you have to take the bellows off first, or can you just chuck the whole thing in all at once? [Insert stupid winking smiley face thing here]

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: Kaleea
Date: 02 Jul 05 - 03:14 AM

I love the Mudcat! I read the stuff I want to, post when I want to, & ignore the stuff I want to. If a thread starts getting too much like a typical day on crapitol hill, I just click & go to another thread. Ain't no thang. (but then, I used to be a teacher & have dealt with many unruly children)
   Recently, however, I have been less online as I have been traveling. I've been ill for awhile off & on. My father has been in & out between the hospital & the nursing home--mostly the hospital. And, all this when I was planning to sort, pack, have a big sale & move halfway across the country!
   To some folks this online computer stuff is a new world, & to others it's not. Also, I think that many folks who are very knowledgeable about Music--folk Music in particular--are often older folks. Older folks tend to have alot on their plates, so may come & go. Having been in many organizations, I have found that people come & go with time. The older ones sometimes are seen less & less.
I do believe that the vast majority of 'Catters are good folks. Here's to all you 'Catters out there lurking, posting, & taking a break!      Cheers!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Jul 05 - 02:50 AM

Hey, wait! wait!
There's only so much time in a day, and I don't want to spend it playing Hall Monitor...
But no, we're not going to tolerate another Martin Gibson - and we're not going to tolerate Mudcatters fighting or toying with the next Martin if/when he comes. If we can't get Mudcatters to honor our "leave the trolls alone" rule, we'll help them ignore the trolls by giving them some time on the bench.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: Wesley S
Date: 01 Jul 05 - 02:44 PM

Hey I've got a boss that needs a monitor too. I'm next Joe !!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: Deckman
Date: 01 Jul 05 - 02:30 PM

Joe, I'm VERY encouraged when I hear you say that MC has learned it's lesson (my words, not yours) regarding posters who want to fight. I think that was a lesson that needed to be learned. I will continue tp peruse MC and add my comments when I think they might have some value.

By the way ... is there anyway that I can get you to "monitor" my abusive brother? He's a seriousm piece of work and could benifit from your supervision!!! CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: Cool Beans
Date: 01 Jul 05 - 01:50 PM

I love Mudcat. I read the threads I'm interested in and I post when I have something to say. The editor in me is ever present. Just because I don't post doesn't mean I'm not there. I appreciate all of you.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jul 05 - 10:29 AM

All of the Guest,CarolC posts so far on this thread are from me.

I'd call it a polite expression of disagreement.

If this is in reference to the quote attributed to me, it is correct.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Jul 05 - 10:10 AM

There's a difference between interjecting humor in a thread, and hijacking a thread and taking it away from its primary topic. I'm talking about hijacking, Kat.
And generally, the music threads haven't suffered much in that regard.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: GUEST,kat coming in the back door
Date: 01 Jul 05 - 09:48 AM

Joe said, (my emphasis)I think we need to accommodate people with specialized interest by controlling those who would turn serious discussions into joke threads.

It'd be a sorry-arsed auld world if a little light relief couldn't be interjected into serious discussions now and then. I know, I know...it's gone too far at times on the Mudcat and I've been disgusted by it, too. BUT, it has also led to fantastic threads on the most interesting of subjects, so...let's not banish the Court Jesters.:-) I think the word "Control" is best reserved for the real arseholes...the ones who abuse, troll, and flame as did MG.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: GUEST,A different GUEST
Date: 01 Jul 05 - 06:16 AM

I'd call it a polite expression of disagreement.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jul 05 - 04:20 AM

QUOTE "That and (as someone pointed out above) this is ever more UK and the UK has a different sense of manners/politeness. More misunderstandings take place as we are increasingly "divided by one language"". UNQUOTE

QUOTE "A more careful reading of my previous posts to this thread, Joe, will reveal that ......" UNQUOTE

As a UK person, with my different sense of manners, I think the second quote is simply an attempt to antagonise. Either that or simply bad manners.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: GUEST,Azizi
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 10:57 PM

I read somewhere {maybe in other Mudcat theads} that visiting active online discussion forums is very much like listening in on other people's conversations.

IMO, lurking on a discussion forum is alot like being behind the scenes of a dramatic production {or a comedy or a sometimes even a horror show LOL!}...And posting on a discusson forum like Mudcat is alot like being in a improvisation skit. Anytime you provide an on-topic {and especially an off-topic} comment you might for better or worse temporarily or permanently change the spirit & direction of that thread.

And-continuing with that analogy of an improvisational dramatic production -the thing that takes some getting use to for me is that the cast that you are working with keeps changing. New actors are always being introduced, and old ones departing, sometimes abruptly.
{Sometimes this is definitely a good thing. But other times you wish that people you've come to 'know' wouldn't just disapear}.

Since I like stability in my life, all this coming and going is somewhat disconcerting to me. But I get a sense from veteran Catters that, for a multiplicity of reasons, with online discussion forums the addition and departure of 'regulars' and 'extras' {if you will} is par for the course. This just takes some getting used to for me....

And as to the Mudcat 'docudrama' being better or worse this season than past seasons: it all depends on the person, right?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: GUEST,Mary in Kentucky
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 07:41 PM

Guest, I know who you are (I think), and I'll send you a PM when we are restored. I think of you often. LOL...

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: GUEST,CarolC
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 07:40 PM

It's funny though Carol - because when I first joined I percieved a distinct bias FOR those who played instruments; someone would post lyrics and the thread seemed liked it dissolved instantly into a discussion of the chords. Of course no one knew the MELODY.

I know what you mean, MMario. I saw some of that happening also. I can't discuss chords either, being more melody oriented myself. And I use the dreaded sheet music to help me remember what chords (buttons) to play (push).

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: GUEST,McGrath
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 07:07 PM

I've been around then Mudcat since the last century... I like saying stuff like that. In fact I mean since 1999. In the time-warp world of the Internet that makes me a veteran, I suppose.

And one thing that has been consistant throughout has been people saying that it's not the way it used to be in the Good Old Days, or the Rare Ould Times. Only that the definition of the Good Old Days and the Rare Ould Times has moved on over the years to include the times when people were lamenting the passing of the Good Old Days.

Things change, and there is loss as well as gain. As it gets bigger that means that things that were good to have aren't there any more, and it isn't always easy to recognise the good things that have come along. But they are there.

There are people who have stopped coming around whom I miss, but it doesn't just happen here. No reason to assume that because someone stops turning up to a folk session that they have quarrelled with soemone, or got fed up with the music, and it's no different here. There are too many reasons why - pressure of time, other demands on us. And for us there are technical reasons as well - computers go wrong, connections cease to be available. All right, we can work up a dispute about anything, and there are always liable to be a few people who want to turn every and every discussion into a fight, but that's pretty superficial most of the time.

For a glimpse of what typical times on the Mudcat were like a few years agop I suggest people try the Wayback Machine - just stick it on your browser and see what I mean. (Though you can only do it when theeh Mudcat is running properly, not when you've come in through the backdoor, like today. Most of the time you find people saying very much the same things...

Lots of great songs about this kind of thing. For example Australian Henry Lawson's "Outside Track" - which is very likely on the DT, but I can't get at that today, what with teyh backdoor entry. Here's a link to it anyway

And here's the last verse of that, to encourage people to follow that link, because there's a lot of great stuff at the other end of the blue clicky:

And one by one, and two by two,
    They have sailed from the wharf since then;
I have said good-bye to the last I knew,
    The last of the careless men.
And I can't but think that the times we had
    Were the best times after all,
As I turn aside with a lonely glass
    And drink to the bar-room wall.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: GUEST,Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 06:03 PM

I did read your message, Carol - but I was responding to the entire discussion, and just in passing to your one message.
But it's true that not many people here can discuss accordions, and there is an unfortunate tendency to joke about things one doesn't know about or isn't interested in. I think we need to accommodate people with specialized interests by controlling those who would turn serious discussions into joke threads.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: GUEST,CarolC
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 05:51 PM

I do wonder if there will ever come a time, though, Joe, when you will actually read my posts before you comment on them.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: GUEST,CarolC
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 05:47 PM

I'm not complaining about how things are now in the Mudcat, re: instrumentalists. A more careful reading of my previous posts to this thread, Joe, will reveal that I was, in fact, saying I like the way things are better in that regard now than the way it was before. I am saying I regard the changes that have embraced instrumentalists to a greater degree than I experienced previously to be positive changes from my perspective.

And on the subject of the accordion, there has been a resurgence of interest and an increase in tolerance of that instrument, even here in the Mudcat. Again, I veiw this as a positive change. Very different from when I first got here.

And this is, at least in part, the basis of my disagreement with the GUEST to whom I was making my remarks in my previous posts. I think the Mudcat is better now, for me, musically, than it was when I first joined.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: GUEST,Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 05:06 PM

Face it, Carol: the vast majority of people here are unable to carry on an intelligent discussion of accordion music. I do think it's unfair when people start a serious thread about an instrument, and others waylay the discussion with jokes - I'll try to keep an eye on that and see what we can do to prevent that.

There are issues on all sides. Those of us who sing, can often find it difficult to sing with those instrumentalists who don't respect our concerns - like those who overpower our singing or try to lead us where we don't want to go, or who want to cut the song short before the story we're singing is over. And there are some instruments that singers just can't sing with very well - accordions and trumpets often fall into that category. We singers who don't play instruments can feel lost in a session where every song is an instrumental song, or where singing is only allowed as a necessary nuisance.

Instrumentalists can find themselves in the background in singers' discussions because the singers just don't relate to intruments they don't play.

So, there are issues, and there is a need for balance in discussions and sessions where all are included; and also there is a need for a variety of sessions and discussions where some are NOT included, and that should be OK.

I suppose our recent experience with Maritn Gibson has chased away some people. I don't think it was all Martin's doing, however. I think that a "battlefield mentality" has developed here at Mudcat, where angry people come here to fight and to provoke fights. It doesn't make it very pleasant for those us who'd like a more peaceful atmosphere.

We try to use the consensus of Mudcatters as a guide for our editorial policy, realizing that we can't satisfy everybody. The consensus seems to be that we need to have stricter controls on combative conduct. You can expect us to follow through on that. We won't try to decide who's right and who's wrong - if you do battle at Mudcat, you can expect that some of your messages will be deleted. If that doesn't stop you, you can expect to be at least temporarily blocked, with your membership suspended.


-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 04:16 PM

I'm not saying it's *right* but bodrhoan, guitar and accordian jokes seems to be a culteral bias in our society - even (or perhaps especially) among non-musicians - but judging by a lot of the people who through the jokes around here - even among those who play them!

It's funny though Carol - because when I first joined I percieved a distinct bias FOR those who played instruments; someone would post lyrics and the thread seemed liked it dissolved instantly into a discussion of the chords. Of course no one knew the MELODY.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: GUEST,gnu
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 04:04 PM

Rhan Jokes? Nah. Say it ain't so, Joe.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: GUEST,CarolC
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 03:24 PM

I haven't seen any particular bias against instrumentalists

My experience has been different. Especially on serious music threads about instruments that are often the subject of jokes. When I was a fairly new member, it was made very clear that it was considered bad form for people to BS around in serious music threads. But many people who subscribe to this rule of thumb don't honor it when the thread is about an instrument they don't take seriously, like the accordion. And when they talk about how they define "folk music", for many people the definition pretty much only covers songs with words.

Since the forum changed (a long time ago) to include instrumentalists, and since it is billed in the banner as being a forum for and about "folk" music and blues, it stopped being mostly about lyrics several years ago. But there do seem to be those who resent this change. And this is what I am talking about re: how one's experience here and how one defines "good change" vs. "bad change" will effect wheter or not one thinks the Mudcat has gotten "worse" or "better" in the long run.

One experience that still stays with me to this day when I think about this sort of thing was the thread started with a serious question about accordions that turned into a joke fest. And finally, one of the regular Mudcatters who plays the accordion told the original questioner that it would be better to discuss the subject of his/her serious music question in PMs rather than the open forum.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: GUEST,Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 02:55 PM

Mudcat has its roots as a folk lyrics forum, based on the Digital Tradition Folk Song Database. I haven't seen any particular bias against instrumentalists, but the primary basis of Mudcat has always been lyrics.
Well, I guess we have had a lot of jokes about bodhrans, banjos....and accordions.
What can I say?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 02:26 PM

you are reading thing into my statement I didn't say.    I said the mudcat was more then a social gathering. I didn't say anything about it being significantly more then just a social gathering in any way that it didn't used to be.

Yes, the database has gotten bigger. The forum archive has gotten bigger. there is also an incredible amount of knowledge available - and if not avaialbe frequently someone can point to a resource. As long as those are available this will never be "Only a social gathering" - whether you care to think so or not.

The social aspects keep people around to be able to answer those questions.

Y'know - one complaint we hear over and over again is "there isn't anything of interest to me in the music section"   SO START SOME THAT DO!!!!!! Or collate a bunch of threads on a subject and then post a set of links. OR bring the mudcat into other facets of your life and hunt down some of the unanswered questions, or find some of the unposted tunes. Or post something about which you have knowledge and see what else it pulls to the surface.

there are darn few days that have gone by that a post on the mudcat hasn't sent me out onto the web, or to the library in search of further information - sometimes music related, sometimes not.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 01:51 PM

So how is it now "far more than a social gathering" in any meaningful way more than it used to be "more than just a social gathering"? You mean because the database has gotten bigger?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 01:40 PM

Guest - as you say JMHO and I say:
YMMV

Then this place became only a social gathering place

I would differ from your opinion - I see it more as far more then a social gathering - and can honestly say if it had *ONLY* the social aspects I would have been long gone!!!! On the other hand, the social aspects, for me at least, makes it much easier to check in on a consistent basis.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: GUEST,CarolC
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 01:15 PM

I can understand where you're coming from, GUEST,30 Jun 05 - 12:59 PM, but as you say, "JMHO".

Your outlook is shaped by the way you have experienced this forum and the way you define the "folk community".

I think I probably have a very different definition of "folk" than you, and so for me, having a larger pool of people to interact with is a benefit for me. Since I play a fairly unpopular instrument and my favorite music to play on it is also not very popular (accorion/trad Finnish), the Mudcat has become a better place for me, musically, with the addition of new members.

I have noticed that many of the people who are from the original pool of members don't even acknowlege instrumental music as "folk". If it doesn't have lyrics, it isn't a legitimate subject for discussion in the Mudcat. Back in the early days, a lot of people seemed to be wedded to their own definition of what constituted "folk", and there were many, very spectacular (and not the least bit "civil"), fights and arguments about what was to be considered legitimate discussion under the lable of "folk".

I don't miss those times at all.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 12:59 PM

Some of the diminution is objective, not subjective.

So many topics that would be of interested to the folk community have already been covered. So that means less and less to talk about without covering old ground -- lists of favorites (for the umteenth time).

The novelty of forum community is also diminishing.

The folks that were excited by both the new kind of community and the ability to discuss the folk stuff were reined in (behaviorly, they were more polite) by both their excitement to actually be sharing folk stuff that had been bottled up with little outlet like this for thirty years. Further, they were reined in by the possibility that they might, at some point, actually meet in person the people they were meeting here. That worked -- kept things more civil -- until the lack of new stuff to talk about started to take its toll, and the people who HAD met each other took on the appearance (wrong, I believe) of "cliquishness". Then this place became only a social gathering place.

And the only new stuff to talk about became politics -- it was the only fresh topic. But it is inherently rancorous. As the government of the US became Republican, this became a place for liberals to blow off their steam, vent their frustration. The last thing a person venting steam wants is rational discourse. Their minds are made up and they only wish for commiseration.

That and (as someone pointed out above) this is ever more UK and the UK has a different sense of manners/politeness. More misunderstandings take place as we are increasingly "divided by one language".

JMHO

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 12:58 PM

I dropped out for a few months in '04 because I was very ill, and expected that my absense would have been noted when I came back a little less than a year ago. Hah! Nobody seemed to have missed me at all.

I should note that I had quite deliberately made no mention of my cancer and subsequent treatment, and so had not called any attention to my situation before temporarily dropping out. During the time I was first diagnosed and beginning radiation treatment, Mudcat cyberspace was the one "place" I was able to be my normal self, and I liked it that way. In 3D real life, everyone was relating to me as a victim, and I was glad to have a retreat where I could experience a bit of normality.

When I came back, I did so "with a vengeance," posting much more often than ever before.

I do a lot of this at work, and have recently caught a bit of flak over it, so I should be cutting back now and in the immediate future. The boss is out of the office this morning, though, so here Iam!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: GUEST,CarolC
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 12:26 PM

I've noticed that some people who were here before a contentious time that is followed by changes see the changes as being a diminishment, but a lot of the time, newer people see the changes as being for the better. I think how one perceives the changes is very subjective.

Many of the people who were agitiating for change in the year or so before I first joined have since been among the ones who have been unhappy about subsequent changes. People seem to prefer the Mudcat the way it is/was when they first joined, and that's how they want it to stay. The Mudcat is not a static thing. Just like a town that is experiencing growth, it can't be kept as it was when each of us first joined.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 12:00 PM

But it's a spiral not a cycle. Each time it comes back around to "more peaceful" it has been severely diminished and those who have come in later (for whom the diminished mudcat holds appeal) are of the type that like the diminished style. A spiral, not a cycle.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: GUEST,CarolC
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 11:55 AM

This is me. I'll verify this post when I can get in through the front door.

From my experience, as a member since July of 2000 as well as from reading through threads from before I joined, I have to say that the idea that the Mudcat was less contentious way back when is not really the case. The Mudcat was going through some very terrible times when I first joined. From my experience, I've seen that we have times that are very contentious interspersed with times that are more peaceful.

Each time we go through a contentious period, some people leave, the Mudcat goes through some kind of growth or change (for instance, the innovation of having an "above the line" separated from the "BS" threads), and then things calm down for a while. My take on it is that these contentious times are like growing pains. Whenever we get through some, the Mudcat comes out somehow different. But not always necessarily better or worse. Just different. For me the most difficult changes in the Mudcat happen when someone I care about passes on.

I wish you could have met Rick, Azizi. I think you would have liked him.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: GUEST,Bill D
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 11:50 AM

about mousethief... he is one who changed jobs. He used to work, I believe, at Boeing in Seattle, where he had MUCH free time between obligations, but changed jobs and had less free time..etc.. He did pop in a few times....once, at least, not too long ago.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Catters Missing In Action
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 11:15 AM

"Mudcat goes through cycles"

I used to believe this. It's understandable -- from a certain perspective a spiral will sure look a lot like a cycle.